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  1. #201
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    Sam: I made a promise Mr. Frodo, a promise.

    Frodo: you did?

    Sam: Don't you charge him Samwise Gamgee, dont you charge him..

    Frodo: for?

    Sam: The epic story, and i dont mean to... i dont mean to.

    Frodo: Whatever, just take my money and lets continue on to Mordor...
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  2. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackheart-Fury View Post
    Sam: I made a promise Mr. Frodo, a promise.

    Frodo: you did?

    Sam: Don't you charge him Samwise Gamgee, dont you charge him..

    Frodo: for?

    Sam: The epic story, and i dont mean to... i dont mean to.

    Frodo: Whatever, just take my money and lets continue on to Mordor...
    :-D good one..

    In fact it's my point of view.. I'm going to buy every expansion (I guess just basic ones) till I see Gondor, Mordor and Mount Doom! Although I usualy play just few months a year when the new expansion is out. But regarding ration cost:time-spent-in-game it's still good deal for me..
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  3. #203
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    Quote Originally Posted by robo7425 View Post
    Please show me the 8 yr old info on the Wall Street Journal site. It's not there, they removed it because it wasn't relevant any longer. Customers are still using the features chart to determine if they want to play/purchase this game. You might not think so, but having the epics for free could sway some customers to play the game. It would take seconds to add a disclaimer that the epics are limited to current content. This is something that should have been done before the pre-sales were offered. You keep bringing up prior circumstances when the epics weren't free. That no longer plays into the discussion. Once Turbine changed access to unlimited it overrode any prior statements regarding the epics. Currently Turbine has a features chart that list the epics access as unlimited. It also has a sales page for Helms Deep that says differently. Having conflicting sales information is a bad business practice. I'm not sure why you are so adverse to having the advertising match. As far as the promise about the epics, I remember a statement that they would always be free. You don't recall that statement. Since the statements from that time period were removed, there is no way to see who is correct. Either way, Turbine will do as they please.
    This.

    QFT, by removing features of F2P you changing the terms of service, so a F2P player or VIP that decides to sue Warner Brothers for the Terms of Service can do it and win. I personally can't due to were I live and different law would need to do an International Lawsuit.

    So yea people, you have your rights don't let khafar tell you otherwise.

  4. #204
    Quote Originally Posted by Al. View Post
    This.

    QFT, by removing features of F2P you changing the terms of service, so a F2P player or VIP that decides to sue Warner Brothers for the Terms of Service can do it and win. I personally can't due to were I live and different law would need to do an International Lawsuit.

    So yea people, you have your rights don't let khafar tell you otherwise.
    1. Actually they can't win. At this time NONE of you have agreed to any Terms of Service of the Helm's Deep Expansion. I can guarantee you that all those little things that you click through with each release of a major update will mention the change in service.

    2. They aren't removing features. The Epic Story through the Riders of Rohan expansion will continue to be free. The fact that they are no longer offering unlimited free play for the Epic Story just means they have to change that image that everyone keeps throwing around, since it will obviously be out of date.

  5. #205
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    Exclamation

    Quote Originally Posted by Snabur View Post
    First of all: Vips dont get the epics too, you need to purchase HD.
    Second: Why Turbine need to worry about f2p players? If you're Free2play you NEVER put ANY money in the game to help mantain it. IMO if you want to play every epic in the game and go till level cap (no matter how much grind you need to do) you need give some money to Turbine, you're using the awesome content Turbine do without help them keep the game going and still complain.....
    Thanks SO much Turbine, the Epics should be a extra for who purchase the exp packs.

    PS: Sorry if i'm being rude, but i cant understand someone complaining about a company dont giving the best type of quests the game has to offer for free since you never put a dolar to help them mantain the game. It's like complain with Ferrari for not giving you the best car they have for free....

    While this is a good point. Turbine said Epics are and always will be free. They better state a damn good reason for changing that before they do it and even then shouldn't.

  6. #206
    Quote Originally Posted by sakisman View Post
    While this is a good point. Turbine said Epics are and always will be free. They better state a damn good reason for changing that before they do it and even then shouldn't.
    They already have, portions of the Epic Story will take place within the Battle of Helms Deep, which will be using the new Epic Battle "technology". Unfortunately they are unwilling to give access to that "technology" away for free. Everyone has to buy it.

  7. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by Al. View Post
    by removing features of F2P you changing the terms of service, so a F2P player or VIP that decides to sue Warner Brothers for the Terms of Service can do it and win.
    Um... no. Not even close. Free players haven't paid for anything (by definition), and could all be ejected from the game tomorrow if Turbine decided to do so. They won't of course (because they like having free players come take a look at the game, and hopefully start paying), but they could go right back to a "payers only" model of the game, free of any legal risk at all.

    What theory are you going to use to bring a civil lawsuit? By definition, you've suffered no financial harm. Turbine has no binding contract with you. You've suffered no personal injury.

    This whole line of argument is just getting sillier and sillier. They haven't even actually removed a single bit of content that free players enjoy today. All they did was to add a restriction for some new content in the future... similar to one they had back when the game first went F2P.

    I understand that you don't like it. Sorry, but that doesn't make it illegal, or actionable (beyond simply going to play something else - you always have that right).

    Khafar

  8. #208
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    Cool

    While i can say i hated lotro for a good 6 months. Don't know why. I am getting my love for it back with my new alts and some friends up at lvl cap. HD will be the first expansion i will pre purchase legendary. I have bough Rohan with real money and all other expansions other than moria with TP from my VIP account.

  9. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khafar View Post
    Um... no. Not even close. Free players haven't paid for anything (by definition), and could all be ejected from the game tomorrow if Turbine decided to do so. They won't of course (because they like having free players come take a look at the game, and hopefully start paying), but they could go right back to a "payers only" model of the game, free of any legal risk at all.

    What theory are you going to use to bring a civil lawsuit? By definition, you've suffered no financial harm. Turbine has no binding contract with you. You've suffered no personal injury.

    This whole line of argument is just getting sillier and sillier. They haven't even actually removed a single bit of content that free players enjoy today. All they did was to add a restriction for some new content in the future... similar to one they had back when the game first went F2P.

    I understand that you don't like it. Sorry, but that doesn't make it illegal, or actionable (beyond simply going to play something else - you always have that right).

    Khafar
    No offense to Al, but a fair warning to you and others is that he started a T-thread last weekend. So I'd take what he said with a grain of salt, even if it isn't so blatantly incorrect.

    That same ToS that is being thrown around is also the one that talks about Turbine making any changes for whatever reason - or no reason whatsoever - and not even having to tell us about it. The moment any of us started to play, we agreed to that policy.
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  10. #210
    ROFL..... cannot believe people are talking about a lawsuit... HAHAHAHA ah such drama mamma's...
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  11. #211
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    I love to fantasize that I'd be the first person to visit and colonize Pluto. I love the thought of exploring deep space. My ideal world to live on would be a frozen planet (Pluto) of continual night where I'd mostly work on advanced math problems and proofs and play some LOTRO in the evening to relax.

    Hey, if a few people on this thread want to fantasy about wild lawsuits, I guess they will. But I think I have a better chance at proving the Riemann hypothesis than any of y'all have of successfully suing Turbine over your "lil baby don't cry" non-existent broken promises.
    other favorite middle-earth games: The One Ring RPG by Cubicle 7; LotR: The Card Game by FFG; Hobbit/LotR Strategy Battle Game by GW

  12. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by mr_toad View Post
    the Riemann hypothesis

    I had to Google this, and I still have no clue what it is. Something about proving something about zeros. Trying to read the wiki about it made me dizzy and glassy eyed!
    Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, totally worn out & proclaiming "WOW, what a ride!"
    Continuing the never ending battle to keep Lobelia Sackville-Baggins in check

  13. #213
    I would like to add my thoughts to this. I'm a completely F2P player, and so I'm a little bit upset by this. Does it mean I'm going to stop playing? No. Does it mean I'm going to get angry with turbine? Nope. I am F2P because i like spending time in game, and it is my opinion that if everything can be bought with turbine points, I'm damn willing to do so. For me, "grinding deeds" isn't a bad thing, because every moment i spend doing a slayer deed i spend playing LOTRO. That being said, I have already started grinding TP for Helms Deep, because the epic stories are worth it.

    Would I prefer it if the epic story was free? Of course. But I don't agree with all of you angry F2Pers, because if you don't have the patience or will to make 2000tp or so in game, then you aren't very good at f2p :P and in that case go buy it with money, like many of my VIP friends do (nothing wrong at all with that, some of my best in game friends are lifers)

    I think the only thing that upsets me here is that Turbine broke a promise to it's player base, which is always a terrible thing to do, and which i think was downright wrong. They should at least make us an apology
    Zacharr -- 100 -- Hunter -- Firefoot. I guess that's the new character signature :P

  14. #214
    If it is true, I can only say it is not a good step from the marketing team.

    Why marketing team?

    1. It will decrease the reputation of Turbine, because the players will not belive for him in the future, because they brake ther base law as the epic line will be for free.


    2. if I do not have reason to put my feet to West Rohan, what will convince me to buy it? Remember for the fishermens. first they throw some morsel for the fist, and just after send the bait.


    I will not spend IRL money for it, but I will buy HD but not for the epic, and noone will buy it just for the epic, So I see no reason why it can not be free

  15. #215
    Quote Originally Posted by Nymphonic View Post
    I had to Google this, and I still have no clue what it is. Something about proving something about zeros. Trying to read the wiki about it made me dizzy and glassy eyed! :eek:
    The very narrow specificity of the problem and the fact that Pluto is a bit far from 'deep space' put aside, I'm not sure how fun will be for him to 'colonize' (by himself?) a pseudo-planet and spent a lifetime of activity for solving this exact problem :) Especially if he is constantly distracted by playing LOTRO instead, which will significantly increase the odds of someone starting an anti-T lawsuit, for example (since that was the reference point). The major problem here is that the lag on Pluto will be terrible. Forget group play - you'll be fighting the boss for many minutes after he's already dead. Funny thing is, this can happen while playing on this planet also...

  16. #216
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    How tough is it to crack this nut:

    You will be able to play Helm's Deep including the Epic for free.
    Just not on the release day, you'll have to wait so you can buy it with all the TP you've gathered.

    I think Turbine made a foolish promise. Still a promise is a promise, and it was broken. How does one fix that?

  17. #217
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    I'm actually quite amazed as I've read every post up to this point. I'm a vip player and we have a kinship that's half f2p players. When I say f2p I mean they haven't spent a single cent. I don't look down on these players for what ever reason they haven't contributed money. Many of them I've learned to call gamer pals and even a few I've created subs so they can experience some of the content with me. I've already purchased the HD content before reading about the "paid epic" I really could care less. I enjoy my entertainment no matter what form it comes in and I enjoy who I spend my time with whether it be online or out in the fresh air.

    I find the argument about so called promises silly.

    We have over most our free player base in kinship grinding their butts off to make sure when the Content becomes TP based they can purchase the content.

    If it becomes available that week wonderful! Most our kinship will be enjoying new content, if it takes a month-2-3 That's fine too.. our f2p players are ready and dedicated to do their part to be part of the new content.

    Maybe they haven't paid a red cent but the joy many of these f2p players have brought to the game I count them in as contributing something and to me that's worth my money no matter what turbine decides to do with new content. I'm either going to enjoy what I do or move onto something else I enjoy. I'm not gonna sit around and complain about something when I can spend that time enjoying myself. Life is too short to sit and mope in misery when I can be having the time of my life with what I want to do.

    I rather play with the people who enjoy the game to its fullest no matter what content you do or do not have. I'll make sure what we do is what you can do and still enjoy every minute of it
    .
    I don't understand pages and pages of blah blah broken promises and free loading comments. We all play this game, we all play differently, we all enjoy different aspects of this game, but we all play.
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  18. #218
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    you paid subs for people you met on the internet? sounds ripe for exploitation, you may be pathologically nice. but seriously, I'm sure it was for long term friends etc. but jeez it's still a generous thing to do.

    as for the debate, they're not stopping you from playing the existing epic, just the HD epic because it cost them more than usual to make. Grow up, grind or pay and get on with it. if they bankrupted themselves giving everyone everything for free the game ends, simple. So no matter who's promised who what when or why, they are a business and they have starving African shareholders to pay so cough up $$$
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  19. #219
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rainothon View Post
    I think Turbine made a foolish promise.
    Actually, I think Sapience spoke out of turn in the middle of a thread 2 years ago. Patience did something similar when she said in one thread that LOTRO wasn't going F2P shortly after DDO did, something that was true at the time - until it wasn't. She didn't lie... she just couldn't predict the future, and therefore shouldn't have said anything involving a future tense. People tried to treat it as if her statement was a "promise", but of course it was no such thing. She simply didn't have the power to promise that, even if she had wanted to.

    I still haven't been able to find Turbine putting out anything official saying that the epic story would be free forever. No press releases, no promotional materials for updates or expansions, no interviews with the gaming press. Yes, it's said "Unlimited" on that payment comparison chart for most (but not all) of the past 3 years, but that chart gets updated routinely (like when it went from "Up to Level 50" to "Unlimited"... and will soon go from "Unlimited" to "Up to Level 85").

    Khafar
    Last edited by Khafar; Sep 24 2013 at 11:01 AM.

  20. #220
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    I have been playing since November of 2007 when it was P2P. There is nothing wrong with having to pay for some parts of the game. The expansion for example that is coming out is adding more content from the looks of it then others. Like others have said, if you don't want to pay, just stop playing it. The ones that are paying monthly/quarterly/lifetime are supplying the game with money.

    Many of us even buy the expansions just so we could have the extra stuff with it. I am not against F2P players whatsoever but it happens. Corporations will brake promises in order to get money. They have supplied you most of the game free yet to think its not free enough. If you are young, just go out and mow some lawns for money to buy the expansion. If you are older and have a job but don't pay for any part of the game, think of the opportunity cost of buying one thing over another. Other people have posted how you could either have a $40 movie and dinner which will make you happy for the rest of the night, or you could buy the expansion which will make you happy for a couple months.

    I've been VIP since 2007 and will keep that way because its really great game that would be nothing without its story line. It is the #1 part of the game to me in my opinion.
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  21. #221
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    I think people are taking this way too seriously.
    Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, totally worn out & proclaiming "WOW, what a ride!"
    Continuing the never ending battle to keep Lobelia Sackville-Baggins in check

  22. #222
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khafar View Post
    Actually, I think Sapience spoke out of turn in the middle of a thread 2 years ago. Patience did something similar when she said in one thread that LOTRO wasn't going F2P shortly after DDO did, something that was true at the time - until it wasn't. She didn't lie... she just couldn't predict the future, and therefore shouldn't have said anything involving a future tense. People tried to treat it as if her statement was a "promise", but of course it was no such thing. She simply didn't have the power to promise that, even if she had wanted to.
    According to you, there's no such thing as trust someone's word since what's true today will be false tomorrow. That means we shouldn't believe anything we hear from Turbine regarding HD. After all, things, minds, opinions and tastes can change rather quickly... Am I right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Khafar
    I still haven't been able to find Turbine putting out anything official saying that the epic story would be free forever. No press releases, no promotional materials for updates or expansions, no interviews with the gaming press. Yes, it's said "Unlimited" on that payment comparison chart for most (but not all) of the past 3 years, but that chart gets updated routinely (like when it went from "Up to Level 50" to "Unlimited"... and will soon go from "Unlimited" to "Up to Level 85").

    Khafar
    I'm pretty sure this answers (yet again) your question:

    https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...48#post5676848

    Also, this was shown to you in here:

    https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...58#post6921558.

    and here:

    https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...ne-doing/page3

    Now, according to you, what Sapience says there holds no value now. Correct?
    Ricardofurriel 105 Champion Edved 105 Captain Roovery 105 Minstrel Galathriell 105 Lore-Master EddieVedder 105 Rune-Keeper

  23. #223
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanteIL View Post
    Well I'm curious to see what they do for the round of Epic Book that comes *after* Helm's Deep.

    If the Helm's Deep Books are gated behind purchase of the expansion, then it would make no sense to offer the Epics that follow for F2P. So, until the next Volume starts (Gondor?), it seems fairly certain that the Epic=F2P enticement is dead.

    And the point isn't that a player would get to Level 85 "for free" and not be willing to pony up $$ for the HD pack. The point is that the Epic Books being open to all and able to experienced by everyone has always been a major marketing point. I started LOTRO shortly after F2P started, and although I eventually went VIP, I appreciated the fact that Turbine recognized that the central storyline -- which separates out this game from other similar games -- was special enough to be available to all. Every new quest pack and region that came down the pike, from Enedwaith to Dunland to Great River to Rohan -- this was always part of the information: "And don't worry, players who do not purchase the region can still follow the Epic storyline." I'm sure that Turbine has internal metrics that let them know how many people took them up on this, and perhaps that number is vanishingly small, but the principle of going back on this rubs me the wrong way.
    Exactly, Epic Quest was a major attraction for F2P because it followed the theme of Lord of the Rings. For example SWTOR a major MMO gives entire quest-voiced over quests from all planets for free and that enough for F2P to play and later become subscribers because its star wars story.


    Epic Quests are the long run feature, that actually helps the F2P model, if they remove it they remove all those players than went that route and only keeps those who are already at lvl 85, many people think this "Should I start something I can't finish" they answer No, afterall is an accomplishment people like to accomplish things even more if its the main storyline.

  24. #224
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    Scanned through the posts. Read some interesting thoughts.

    In my opinion, Turbine should have limited the F2P to the first 50 levels before Moria. To me, the first 50 levels playing for zero money is already incredibly generous and gives F2P plenty of time to like the game enough to spend money on it. I wouldn't be asking them to sub, but I would ask F2P accounts to purchase each expansion just like everyone else. But, Turbine has made the decision to allow people to play through Riders of Rohan (up to 85) without any actual financial contributions. So, they are far more generous than I am.

    To me, at this point, asking everyone to purchase the Helms Deep expansion to take part in the benefits it brings (aside from the automatic changes) is still being awfully generous. I mean... you've already gotten to play up to 85 without any real cost to you (F2P). You can be asked to fork over a little money to help support the game at this point. Heck, the majority of F2P probably are not even level 85 yet. So, they aren't even near the point of needing to purchase Helms Deep unless they want to participate in some of the features.

    But, then, everything I just said probably goes over the heads of some people who think they are entitled to play the entire game for nothing.
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  25. #225
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    Quote Originally Posted by RicardoFurriel View Post
    Am I right?
    No. What it means is that Community Managers don't issue proclamations carved in granite, and posting an off-the-cuff remark in the middle of one thread among thousands isn't the same thing as promotional materials, Press Releases, and other material which is all carefully vetted by all the people who make those decisions. It was a mistake for Patience to talk futures when discussing LOTRO+F2P, and it was also a mistake for Sapience to refer to a "promise" which had never been made.

    I'm pretty sure you can see the difference. Treating every single utterance by a developer or customer relations person as a Promise For Now And All Time is one of the many reasons most developers simply stop posting on the forums after a while. And just in case it isn't clear, Sapience has no authority whatever to make such promises on his own initiative. He had to fight like hell just to allow the browser to remember our passwords on the login page (which is appreciated, but is hardly in the same realm as deciding the feature roadmap for all time).

    There have definitely been some "broken promises" in this game, like when they promoted a new PvMP map for expansions (twice), and then cut it for schedule (twice). Hopefully they've learned from that particular stupidity: you don't go and make high-profile, official statements about "futures" until you're certain you can deliver on them. But a free epic story line until the game shuts down wasn't such a promise.

    By the way, I read those links when I responded to your (rather obnoxious) post last week, so you can save yourself the time of posting them yet again.

    Khafar
    Last edited by Khafar; Sep 24 2013 at 04:32 PM.

 

 
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