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  1. #1
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    Snowbourn GTA non-legit fights

    Well take a look at:

    https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...e-criteria-now

    Now think twice before someone ruin your game. I have nothing against spars there even thought i dislike this way of gaining easy points since we all know majority fight only when are certain 100% that they will win. Or later will QQ about CD's beeing used, for example just look on all the QQ from guardian (F) or some spiders who spar and constant QQ on both sides, i rather prefer zerg-gank them on warg. But would be seriously unfair if those LEGIT fighters got in trouble like people in thread above.

    Im mentioning it here, because i have noticed a lot of u do 10-15 spars with same person and somehow (dunno if it's only me) i realized u gained 90% win and that other oponnent is not actualy trying to use skills to defend himseful much, letting one side get 10-1 kills, then hour after he change to other class so are you and now u ''suddenly'' die 10-1. (Before u think futher, how many red ranked reaver,wargs attacks r10+ LM,Cappy,Wardens with 0,1% chance to win, dont tell me they are training. You certanly not train by doing warg rank3 audacity 4 vs 1st ager, top geared, rank12 battle promotioned Minstrel who use store pots,imunity, and u are training on him, hah)

    Think it today, might be to late tomorrow. I can't name people so i will not but i will be watching and i hope i wont see this again. Do it legit or dont do it.

  2. #2
    The irony, ouch it hurts.

  3. #3
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    While this thread is a good reminder and has some good points.
    I wonder, say i spar freep X and i die to the freep, but hes left at say 1k morale. He has won the spar and stops moving. A warg comes to gang him with few hits and flees. The freep does not react to it. Is the warg, farming. Can he be reported?


    I roam the map, i find a freep that i know likes a 1v1, we fight and i leave wrath unused because i dont mind the challenge or the fact that i will die. Is it illegal?

    Wheres turbine going.......


    The original Valdez

  4. #4
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    Oh and, if i gang gv hill for example and a freep, clearly underpowered against me, keeps coming and i keep killing him, regardless the fact that he cant win. Farming?


    The original Valdez

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Faildget View Post
    Oh and, if i gang gv hill for example and a freep, clearly underpowered against me, keeps coming and i keep killing him, regardless the fact that he cant win. Farming?
    Farming by one definition, not farming by another.

    It seems turbine's definition of farming can cover a wide variety of player behaviour but we don't know what their process of catching players is, we also don't know any real details of the thread where the two players were banned as it was written from a friends point of view who may not have been told the whole story.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faildget View Post
    While this thread is a good reminder and has some good points.
    I wonder, say i spar freep X and i die to the freep, but hes left at say 1k morale. He has won the spar and stops moving. A warg comes to gang him with few hits and flees. The freep does not react to it. Is the warg, farming. Can he be reported?


    I roam the map, i find a freep that i know likes a 1v1, we fight and i leave wrath unused because i dont mind the challenge or the fact that i will die. Is it illegal?

    Wheres turbine going.......
    I guess it depends how many times you do it, in row or like in 30min and also who is watching, and does that person u know that likes 1on1 is rank2 and you are rank12? It is wierd, and people should be careful because as in topic linked above you may notice, they started to investigate reports. It's good thing, but it's also very bad for paying customer who is afraid of playing because he might get punished for what used to be normal action.

    P.S It was not irony Zelol, but u will see it yourself, keep doing it.

  7. #7
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    In my opinion, much like what Valdez (Nice guy to spar, very fair) this is a difficult one to judge or insinuate that you’re going to mediate or referee.

    I’ve not actually witnessed what your referring to Z, I’ve seen the usual people who’ll only jump at people who they know they’ll definitely win against but I don’t see them sparring over and over or sparring 10 times, then switching roles.

    I see people who commonly spar each other as its generally a close fight – BT & I for example or Muzz and I.

    If this does happen then it’s not when I’m at GTA which is often now as I can’t stand the lag in raids and constant hide and seek. How would you know the people who are sparring each other aren’t doing it for a reason, for example to improve skill rotation, build, ability or there just friends? (people do actually talk with one another, share builds and specs etc)

    If you take Valdez point, the usual Warg’s who hang around GTA will generally gank easy targets or harder ones at their lowest point in a spar, how does this make them any different if you gank over and over – which does happen – again no names or insinuating you are one of them.

    Until ######## actually announce what there criteria is, I don’t think anyone can take action and hide behind it being illegitimate sparring.

  8. #8
    Zrinko; I agree with most of what you say. There are a lot of both freeps and creeps that want to spar each other which is entirely unnecessary however I think that you miss something in that creeps can buy all of their skills from the lotro store.

    Yesterday (Not naming names) I sparred a Rank 6 reaver who used Wrath, AtO and Impale against me. Aside the 800-1200 morale through battlefield promotions, what is the difference between sparring a Rank 11 reaver with all those skills and sparring a rank 6 reaver with all those skills.

    Another question begged, again whilst I agree with most of what you say, what gives you the right to be judge jury and executioner?
    [IMG]http://lux-hdro.de/generator.php/Laolos/2/9/3/7/85/Wiping+As+Intended/0/2/1/11/10/1/6/8/8/8/8/8/8.png[/IMG]

  9. #9
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    I also did not notice people farming their ranks by first, being farmed couple of times and then farming in the same way their opponent (like in points swapping), but I do believe such things may happen after shutting down the leaderboards/dashboards when you don't have a clear view over the daily inf/ren gain of every person individually.

    I do know however that ganking by certain players at gta nowadays can be easily compared to fcing on a huge scale, because they don't seem to put any effort in gaining their points and the simple waiting for somebody to be on low hp just to (eventually) steal kb and grab fair amount of points is definitely taking the easy way out. I'm not adding the aspect of surviving afterwards, since most of the gankers are wargs or burgs and you gotta be really bad to die having 2 escape skills ready and able to use.

    Speaking of ganking, the quality of these drastically went down during the recent years. I remember gits from Purgatory (ganking tribe very despised by many, yet now you tend to value their quality when comparing to the present ones) who very often put a decent fight at gta by mapping in 5-6 man groups powered by couple of healers. Wiping them down took a fair time for unprepared freeps and it surely triggered an action for an hour or two. No silly hide & seek & steal, just plain rolling over, it requires some ba11s I bet.
    [center][i][b]Etheldar - r14 Hunter, [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q27doMqTeXM] [color=#800000]B[/color][color=#8B0000]l[/color][color=#B22222]o[/color][color=#FF0000]o[/color][color=#FF4500]d[/color][color=#FF8C00]t[/color][color=#FFA500]a[/color][color=#FFFF00]i[/color][color=#FFFFE0]l[/color][/url] - r15 Stalker, Etheal - r10 Defiler, Hailnkill - r8 Reaver[/i][/b][/center]

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by zrinko View Post
    Well take a look at:

    https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...e-criteria-now

    Now think twice before someone ruin your game. I have nothing against spars there even thought i dislike this way of gaining easy points since we all know majority fight only when are certain 100% that they will win. Or later will QQ about CD's beeing used, for example just look on all the QQ from guardian (F) or some spiders who spar and constant QQ on both sides, i rather prefer zerg-gank them on warg. But would be seriously unfair if those LEGIT fighters got in trouble like people in thread above.

    Im mentioning it here, because i have noticed a lot of u do 10-15 spars with same person and somehow (dunno if it's only me) i realized u gained 90% win and that other oponnent is not actualy trying to use skills to defend himseful much, letting one side get 10-1 kills, then hour after he change to other class so are you and now u ''suddenly'' die 10-1. (Before u think futher, how many red ranked reaver,wargs attacks r10+ LM,Cappy,Wardens with 0,1% chance to win, dont tell me they are training. You certanly not train by doing warg rank3 audacity 4 vs 1st ager, top geared, rank12 battle promotioned Minstrel who use store pots,imunity, and u are training on him, hah)

    Think it today, might be to late tomorrow. I can't name people so i will not but i will be watching and i hope i wont see this again. Do it legit or dont do it.
    It's just hilarious when you speak of doing something legit in this game.
    [CENTER][COLOR=#008080]Chains of insanity [/COLOR][COLOR=#fff0f5]- [/COLOR][COLOR=#800080]Doom of GY Reborn [/COLOR]-[COLOR=#ff0000] FOTM[/COLOR] - [COLOR=#0000ff]WotGE[/COLOR] -[COLOR=#40e0d0] The [/COLOR][COLOR=#00ffff]Fancy Lads
    [/COLOR][COLOR=#ee82ee]Retired from LOTRO[/COLOR]

    [/CENTER]

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lao10 View Post

    Yesterday (Not naming names) I sparred a Rank 6 reaver who used Wrath, AtO and Impale against me. Aside the 800-1200 morale through battlefield promotions, what is the difference between sparring a Rank 11 reaver with all those skills and sparring a rank 6 reaver with all those skills.
    Rank
    +5% Damage
    Increases your total health by 7%.
    Increases your total power by 7%.
    +2446.5 Finesse Rating


    Rank
    +10% Damage
    Increases your total health by 14%.
    Increases your total power by 13%.
    +4194 Finesse Rating


    [CENTER][IMG]http://i57.tinypic.com/nzknxz.jpg[/IMG]
    [/CENTER]

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Etheldar View Post
    I do know however that ganking by certain players at gta nowadays can be easily compared to fcing on a huge scale, because they don't seem to put any effort in gaining their points and the simple waiting for somebody to be on low hp just to (eventually) steal kb and grab fair amount of points is definitely taking the easy way out.

    What next? Gold-tagging on defiler?
    InsertPhotobucketLinkHere
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    Beer!


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    ~John J. Rambo

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Anolus View Post
    Rank
    +5% Damage
    Increases your total health by 7%.
    Increases your total power by 7%.
    +2446.5 Finesse Rating


    Rank
    +10% Damage
    Increases your total health by 14%.
    Increases your total power by 13%.
    +4194 Finesse Rating



    Actually;

    The difference in morale is 7 % which is not particularly a lot. With various corruptions available is it impossible to pin a specific number to the difference hence why i gave a number between 800-1200 morale. I would say the average reaver has 20k morale. 14% of that is 2800. However on that principal, their base morale is 17200. but the difference of an additional 7 % is 1204 and total morale would be 18404 as the numbers are multiplicative.


    So i was actually out by 4 morale. Thanks for pointing that out Anolus. Yet again you prove how much of an evil genius you are.

    The damage difference is 5% which is not really that much of a consideration and not really easy to specifically tie into a fight, but for arguements sake ill use impale (my biggest incoming hit) as the topical example. Said reaver from last nights spar hit me for 2700 crit plus 700 x 4 which = 5500. 10 % is 550 = 4950 base + 5% = 248 making a total hit of 5198 a difference of 302 damage. Spread over 5 hits (1x Initial Impale, 4 x Impale DoT Hits) is 75.5 damage per hit.

    Please refer to original statement. There is no real difference if the R6 has all store bought skills.
    Last edited by Lao10; Sep 13 2013 at 12:07 PM.
    [IMG]http://lux-hdro.de/generator.php/Laolos/2/9/3/7/85/Wiping+As+Intended/0/2/1/11/10/1/6/8/8/8/8/8/8.png[/IMG]

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrandCru View Post

    What next? Gold-tagging on defiler?
    Oh well, if taking down people being on low hp is the hard part, then I'm afraid to ask what does 'easy' mean in your book. Even your zergy defiler example binds with at least some risk and effort in contrary to your doings (even if I did not mean you in particular in my post, since I know you're hating on almost everything and everyone ). After all you are free to do whatever you want since there are no strict rules forbidding your actions, nor an obvious clubbing. As long as I will get a chance for a decent fight, I'll be happy and for the time being it is usually till a target is on 10-5% of morale, which is more than enough for me to conclude about who won and who lost a spar.
    [center][i][b]Etheldar - r14 Hunter, [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q27doMqTeXM] [color=#800000]B[/color][color=#8B0000]l[/color][color=#B22222]o[/color][color=#FF0000]o[/color][color=#FF4500]d[/color][color=#FF8C00]t[/color][color=#FFA500]a[/color][color=#FFFF00]i[/color][color=#FFFFE0]l[/color][/url] - r15 Stalker, Etheal - r10 Defiler, Hailnkill - r8 Reaver[/i][/b][/center]

  15. #15
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    Hey

    U missunderstood concept of this thread, i wanted to warn normal - legit fighters on problems that happend elswhere and that will be taken by wrong people toward them ''maybe'' so you all can know and take little more action so you wont be afraid when you will try to log and fail.


    - I KNOW CERTAIN CHAMPS WHO TO CBR UNTIL THEY DIE, AFTER THEY WON IN SPAR, THEIR 2K MORAL LEFT LEECH THEM TO DEATH, MISTAKE? ALMOST EVERY TIME? ERM, ILL BE FIRST TO CONTACT SOMEONE WHEN IT HAPPENS AGAIN.

    Now, Lao, yes, correct rank1 can buy all skills, but (Im sorry i cant name people), there is few people like Guard,Minstrel (who also play LM) that only spar with same 2 people, and both people are reaver r4 and defiler r4, while he's minstrel and LM is raid geared, rank9+ and he spam some OP skills, there is no way any r4 with no matter of his store skills have chance to kill him.


    LOB, well if you use altfinder as much as i do u would realize how many r2-5s at gta belongs to someone who that same day had his ranked freep getting easykills vs some others, who now changes roles.


    Tag leech on Defiler or Last blow hit on warg is easily watched - checked in combat logs, and probably 99% cannot do anything to those players, but 1on1 battles that show 2 same person having fun in which easy pts are gathered, can be taken as bad and ilegal 1on1. Guess will never know, only we shall see more and more topics like one i linked above. Unfortunely.



    P.S YOU STATS FOR RANK5 VS RANK10 ARE WRONG, you forgot most important thing, that you and noone else can buy in store, it's (each rank gives certain critical rating, mastery and mitigations, which u get for free when visiting your trainer as creep, it's more then 10% critical aswell, and 10% moral and power incombat regen, you forgot those, they matter A LOT)
    Last edited by zrinko; Sep 13 2013 at 12:39 PM.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Etheldar View Post
    Even your zergy defiler example binds with at least some risk and effort in contrary to your doings (even if I did not mean you in particular in my post, since I know you're hating on almost everything and everyone ).
    Knowing what people think and feel is a gift, you should PvP...

    ... Or keep changing subject at your convenience :
    Quote Originally Posted by Etheldar View Post
    Oh well, if taking down people being on low hp is the hard part, then I'm afraid to ask what does 'easy' mean in your book.
    Talk about ethics, honor, values and standards next. Then you'll tell us the hard ways you chose to rank up your warg, hunter and defiler. And you'll end with double face/standard and hypocrisy.


    But you've probably sparred too many FCers recently, to ''easily'' compare gold-tagging/open-tapping (a feature of the game) to ganking the 1v1er (the latest not being a feature of the game). All this spinning around...
    InsertPhotobucketLinkHere
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    Don't push it. Don't push it or I'll give you a war you won't believe.

    ~John J. Rambo

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrandCru View Post
    Knowing what people think and feel is a gift
    Self experience of the recent years. Not known to most of the currently playing veterans and forums trolls.

    Quote Originally Posted by GrandCru View Post
    you should PvP
    dat
    Quote Originally Posted by GrandCru View Post
    hypocrisy

    Quote Originally Posted by GrandCru View Post
    Or keep changing subject at your convenience
    Learnt from the best forums griefers_EU.

    Quote Originally Posted by GrandCru View Post
    Talk about ethics, honor, values and standards next.
    None of such, there are only points, grief and QQ in an mmo. Freeps are also walking renown bags. You should know that by now.

    Quote Originally Posted by GrandCru View Post
    Then you'll tell us
    Split personality issues my precious?

    Quote Originally Posted by GrandCru View Post
    the hard ways you chose to rank up your warg, hunter and defiler
    Indeed, not many chose that way, thanks for reminding dat epicness and bolstering my ego.

    Quote Originally Posted by GrandCru View Post
    And you'll end with double face/standard and hypocrisy.
    You hurt my feelings. And I thought you already earned that 'gift' you 2007 Slayer of Blight.

    Quote Originally Posted by GrandCru View Post
    But you've probably sparred too many FCers recently
    I wish, but still not as many as I wanted. Can't be compared to your Grams-Waterfall-HH-Grothum daily ventures.

    Quote Originally Posted by GrandCru View Post
    to ''easily'' compare gold-tagging/open-tapping (a feature of the game) to ganking the 1v1er (the latest not being a feature of the game). All this spinning around...
    Been there, done that already, yet I'm afraid some of your lifetime deeds are still far from being finished. No worries, I still have my maps to farm, we can coop it.
    [center][i][b]Etheldar - r14 Hunter, [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q27doMqTeXM] [color=#800000]B[/color][color=#8B0000]l[/color][color=#B22222]o[/color][color=#FF0000]o[/color][color=#FF4500]d[/color][color=#FF8C00]t[/color][color=#FFA500]a[/color][color=#FFFF00]i[/color][color=#FFFFE0]l[/color][/url] - r15 Stalker, Etheal - r10 Defiler, Hailnkill - r8 Reaver[/i][/b][/center]

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Etheldar View Post
    Indeed, not many chose that way, thanks for reminding dat epicness and bolstering my ego.
    Your wartabs speak for themselves, like Navhar's.



    Quote Originally Posted by Etheldar View Post
    I thought you already earned that 'gift' you 2007 Slayer of Blight.
    Quote Originally Posted by Etheldar View Post
    Not known to most of the currently playing veterans
    See, you are good at making Q&A.



    Quote Originally Posted by Etheldar View Post
    and forums trolls.
    Oh!... The forum troll argument. Original, unpredictable, and imparable, you should PvP, seriously.
    InsertPhotobucketLinkHere
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    Don't push it. Don't push it or I'll give you a war you won't believe.

    ~John J. Rambo

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrandCru View Post
    like Navhar's.
    Sadly I don't have zerg groups on my own yet, nor my carebear level is that high, but I appreciate your attempt to compare.

    Quote Originally Posted by GrandCru View Post
    See, you are good at making Q&A.
    I can teach you that skill, but I'm afraid it will take you another few years to get it right. Perhaps Exp boost from the store could help?

    Quote Originally Posted by GrandCru View Post
    The forum troll argument.
    Fire with fire.

    Quote Originally Posted by GrandCru View Post
    Original, unpredictable, and imparable
    Like your posts.

    Quote Originally Posted by GrandCru View Post
    you should PvP, seriously.
    For a reason it was said that PvP on forums is far better than in game, show me what you got, for now I'm winning that spar without CDs.
    [center][i][b]Etheldar - r14 Hunter, [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q27doMqTeXM] [color=#800000]B[/color][color=#8B0000]l[/color][color=#B22222]o[/color][color=#FF0000]o[/color][color=#FF4500]d[/color][color=#FF8C00]t[/color][color=#FFA500]a[/color][color=#FFFF00]i[/color][color=#FFFFE0]l[/color][/url] - r15 Stalker, Etheal - r10 Defiler, Hailnkill - r8 Reaver[/i][/b][/center]

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Etheldar View Post
    I can teach you that skill, but I'm afraid it will take you another few years to get it right. Perhaps Exp boost from the store could help?
    And, you forgot your Fail Immunity™



    Quote Originally Posted by Etheldar View Post
    Fire with fire.



    Like your posts.

    I know you are but what am I? Next?



    Quote Originally Posted by Etheldar View Post
    For a reason it was said that PvP on forums is far better than in game, show me what you got, for now I'm winning that spar without CDs.
    Obviously.
    InsertPhotobucketLinkHere
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    Don't push it. Don't push it or I'll give you a war you won't believe.

    ~John J. Rambo

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrandCru View Post
    And, you forgot your Fail Immunity™
    They say that balancing the odds is the essence of sparring.

    Quote Originally Posted by GrandCru View Post
    but what am I?
    Same old, same old.
    [center][i][b]Etheldar - r14 Hunter, [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q27doMqTeXM] [color=#800000]B[/color][color=#8B0000]l[/color][color=#B22222]o[/color][color=#FF0000]o[/color][color=#FF4500]d[/color][color=#FF8C00]t[/color][color=#FFA500]a[/color][color=#FFFF00]i[/color][color=#FFFFE0]l[/color][/url] - r15 Stalker, Etheal - r10 Defiler, Hailnkill - r8 Reaver[/i][/b][/center]

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Etheldar View Post
    They say that balancing the odds is the essence of sparring.
    Oh!... Ah!... And the ''You've been trolled'' argument now.

    Caught off-guard.

    Here's for you.

    InsertPhotobucketLinkHere
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    Wine Wine Wine. Dry Dry Dry. What will it be today ?...
    Beer!


    ~Me


    Don't push it. Don't push it or I'll give you a war you won't believe.

    ~John J. Rambo

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrandCru View Post
    Here's for you.
    Thanks for the e-thumb. I shall drink an e-beer for thee.

    Though as a reward I'd rather see you taking me on one of your safari trips to all of the usual places showing the secrets of your Hard-Mode™ play.
    [center][i][b]Etheldar - r14 Hunter, [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q27doMqTeXM] [color=#800000]B[/color][color=#8B0000]l[/color][color=#B22222]o[/color][color=#FF0000]o[/color][color=#FF4500]d[/color][color=#FF8C00]t[/color][color=#FFA500]a[/color][color=#FFFF00]i[/color][color=#FFFFE0]l[/color][/url] - r15 Stalker, Etheal - r10 Defiler, Hailnkill - r8 Reaver[/i][/b][/center]

  24. #24
    1 - You are a Troll

    2 - You've been trolled

    3 - Change subject at convenience

    4 - Argue with an idiot only if you can drag yourself down to his level

    Quote Originally Posted by Etheldar View Post
    Though as a reward I'd rather see you taking me on one of your safari trips to all of the usual places showing the secrets of your Hard-Mode™ play.
    5 - Repeat step 1-4 in any order


    I see you are still at the back cover.
    Spin.
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    Don't push it. Don't push it or I'll give you a war you won't believe.

    ~John J. Rambo

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrandCru View Post
    1 - You are a Troll
    Not precisely, I'm using your Common Speech, as you solely mentioned, one who wants to treat with somebody presenting the lower quality of chat (in that case the troll language you are the founder of) must be dragged down to his level, otherwise the chat is unproductive and pointless.

    Quote Originally Posted by GrandCru View Post
    2 - You've been trolled
    Incorrect, so far your best shots have been just mere tickles and you approved my supremacy in the convo already.

    Quote Originally Posted by GrandCru View Post
    3 - Change subject at convenience
    Quote Originally Posted by Etheldar View Post
    dat
    Quote Originally Posted by GrandCru View Post
    hypocrisy
    again

    Quote Originally Posted by GrandCru View Post
    4 - Argue with an idiot only if you can drag yourself down to his level
    Indeed, you made me get dragged down to your level for a short while, yet your case must be lost since even after that no productive conclusions have been put forward.

    However anyway, let's summarize what have been stated so far:

    -Trolling is legit until both sides keep up with each other.
    -Ganking is legit.
    -Ganking is not clubbing.
    -Clubbing is not legit.
    -Sparring is EZM.
    -Ganking is HM.
    -Defiler gold-tagging is medicore HM (in comparison to ganking factor).
    -I should start pvping.
    -My wartabs are epic.
    -Again, I should start pvping.
    -Your statements are filled with hypocrisy.

    That's a complete mess, but I appreciate your contribution to this how serious and urgent for our lovely community thread which everybody curiously keep track on. I suggest also to be more specific when it comes to further reflections on the current matter in order of avoiding unnecessary misunderstandings due to usage of 2 or more languages.

    It's a serious business so let's remain serious.

    [center][i][b]Etheldar - r14 Hunter, [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q27doMqTeXM] [color=#800000]B[/color][color=#8B0000]l[/color][color=#B22222]o[/color][color=#FF0000]o[/color][color=#FF4500]d[/color][color=#FF8C00]t[/color][color=#FFA500]a[/color][color=#FFFF00]i[/color][color=#FFFFE0]l[/color][/url] - r15 Stalker, Etheal - r10 Defiler, Hailnkill - r8 Reaver[/i][/b][/center]

 

 
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