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  1. #1
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    Angry Stop those lore breaking monsters!

    There are various monsters in LOTRO that make the loremaster in me scream. The Nameless in Moria are one example. They look like aliens--and not just any aliens, but the aliens sometimes called Xenomorphs from the Alien series of movies. Tolkien wrote of nameless things, yes, but not aliens! The ones like World-eater in the Rift of Nurz Ghashu and the Void-eater from Dark Delvings also qualify.

    And then don't get me started on the Gaunt-men and their lords. If these gaunt lords were so powerful and strange, then why were they never recorded in elvish history? Surely if they had a basis in lore, they'd be fine, but no work of Tolkien's contains any of these things.

    Same with those Caerogs...what are they anyway? Earth-elemental Balrogs? Escapees from my D&D game?

    And let's not forget Gwathnor, that interdimensional monstrosity you fight in the instance "New Devilry". Just look at him! He's practically a World of Warcraft refugee! He does NOT belong in a Tolkien based game! Even bloggers have hated on this monstrosity!

    (http://lotrofollower.blogspot.com/2009/03/gwathnor.html)

    Finally, more natural creatures also offend. The Gertheryg are supposed to be sun-resistant, intelligent trolls from the First Age. Where do they come from, and more importantly, why the hell do they even exist?

    Same goes for Fire-orcs, Fire-giants, and various other lava-skinned perversions. Those guys are just plain bizarre.

    Of course, we have things like the Fell Spirts, Ancient Evils, and various other corrupted things (such as Cuthraul and Druggavar). Those have a basis in lore, as the spawn of Morgoth after being cast into the Void.

    But what are these other disgusting things doing in my Arda? How the hell are these Tolkien monsters at all? I get that you need variety and we can't have you fighting orcs and trolls every day, but I can't believe that nobody has brought up the brutal murder of lore these things commit!

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soarel View Post
    There are various monsters in LOTRO that make the loremaster in me scream. The Nameless in Moria are one example. They look like aliens--and not just any aliens, but the aliens sometimes called Xenomorphs from the Alien series of movies. Tolkien wrote of nameless things, yes, but not aliens! The ones like World-eater in the Rift of Nurz Ghashu and the Void-eater from Dark Delvings also qualify.

    And then don't get me started on the Gaunt-men and their lords. If these gaunt lords were so powerful and strange, then why were they never recorded in elvish history? Surely if they had a basis in lore, they'd be fine, but no work of Tolkien's contains any of these things.

    Same with those Caerogs...what are they anyway? Earth-elemental Balrogs? Escapees from my D&D game?

    And let's not forget Gwathnor, that interdimensional monstrosity you fight in the instance "New Devilry". Just look at him! He's practically a World of Warcraft refugee! He does NOT belong in a Tolkien based game! Even bloggers have hated on this monstrosity!

    (http://lotrofollower.blogspot.com/2009/03/gwathnor.html)

    Finally, more natural creatures also offend. The Gertheryg are supposed to be sun-resistant, intelligent trolls from the First Age. Where do they come from, and more importantly, why the hell do they even exist?

    Same goes for Fire-orcs, Fire-giants, and various other lava-skinned perversions. Those guys are just plain bizarre.

    Of course, we have things like the Fell Spirts, Ancient Evils, and various other corrupted things (such as Cuthraul and Druggavar). Those have a basis in lore, as the spawn of Morgoth after being cast into the Void.

    But what are these other disgusting things doing in my Arda? How the hell are these Tolkien monsters at all? I get that you need variety and we can't have you fighting orcs and trolls every day, but I can't believe that nobody has brought up the brutal murder of lore these things commit!
    Ok! Hold the phone! Just because Tolkien DOES NOT MENTION creatures, it doesn't mean they can't and don't exist. For the nameless: he never really described them, so turbine couldn't have known what they look like, so they had free roam on that. The Gertheryg basically hid for a long time. As for Fire-orcs, Fire-giants, and all lava-skinned perversions, THEY DID EXIST! How often were they mentioned, not very often, but if you read carefully in all of Tolkien's works, they exist. Earthen Balrogs is another thing? All Balrogs weren't made of fire! So just calm down! Read the Sillmarillion, The Book's of lost tales, JUST READ THEM! YOU'LL FIND IT.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aideani View Post
    Ok! Hold the phone! Just because Tolkien DOES NOT MENTION creatures, it doesn't mean they can't and don't exist. For the nameless: he never really described them, so turbine couldn't have known what they look like, so they had free roam on that. The Gertheryg basically hid for a long time. As for Fire-orcs, Fire-giants, and all lava-skinned perversions, THEY DID EXIST! How often were they mentioned, not very often, but if you read carefully in all of Tolkien's works, they exist. Earthen Balrogs is another thing? All Balrogs weren't made of fire! So just calm down! Read the Sillmarillion, The Book's of lost tales, JUST READ THEM! YOU'LL FIND IT.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aideani View Post
    Ok! Hold the phone! Just because Tolkien DOES NOT MENTION creatures, it doesn't mean they can't and don't exist. For the nameless: he never really described them, so turbine couldn't have known what they look like, so they had free roam on that. The Gertheryg basically hid for a long time. As for Fire-orcs, Fire-giants, and all lava-skinned perversions, THEY DID EXIST! How often were they mentioned, not very often, but if you read carefully in all of Tolkien's works, they exist. Earthen Balrogs is another thing? All Balrogs weren't made of fire! So just calm down! Read the Sillmarillion, The Book's of lost tales, JUST READ THEM! YOU'LL FIND IT.
    The Sil very clearly states that Balrogs were spirits of fire ('the demons of fire that served Morgoth', as the index to the Sil says), not earth or anything else so you're just blowing smoke, there. As for the rest, simply saying things could exist doesn't excuse the devs creating monsters that look like Giger meets Lovecraft. And as for all the lava-skinned nonsense, I call shenanigans unless you can provide specific quotes. Yelling JUST READ THEM isn't good enough.

    Have a kitten facepalm for your trouble


  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    The Sil very clearly states that Balrogs were spirits of fire ('the demons of fire that served Morgoth', as the index to the Sil says), not earth or anything else so you're just blowing smoke, there. As for the rest, simply saying things could exist doesn't excuse the devs creating monsters that look like Giger meets Lovecraft. And as for all the lava-skinned nonsense, I call shenanigans unless you can provide specific quotes. Yelling JUST READ THEM isn't good enough.

    Have a kitten facepalm for your trouble

    Ok that cat is sooooo cute! But, although I could not find the information on the lava-skinned, but I remember when I read the Sil, I definitely remember reading about fire-orcs. Though I don't have an accurate answer, I remember that they were mentioned.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Aideani View Post
    Ok that cat is sooooo cute! But, although I could not find the information on the lava-skinned, but I remember when I read the Sil, I definitely remember reading about fire-orcs. Though I don't have an accurate answer, I remember that they were mentioned.
    Well please keep looking then.
    I've read The Lord of the Rings at least twenty times over the years, The Hobbit probably a dozen times, The Silmarillion at least half a dozen times and all of JRR/Christopher Tolkien's other published works at least once, and I don't remember ever reading about a fire-orc, nor any other creature with lava for skin.
    Please keep trying, I'd be fascinated to learn all I can about these strange creatures

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfhelm View Post
    Well please keep looking then.
    I've read The Lord of the Rings at least twenty times over the years, The Hobbit probably a dozen times, The Silmarillion at least half a dozen times and all of JRR/Christopher Tolkien's other published works at least once, and I don't remember ever reading about a fire-orc, nor any other creature with lava for skin.
    Please keep trying, I'd be fascinated to learn all I can about these strange creatures
    I think he's trolling you mate.

  8. #8
    Lore breaking, hah! This game's creatures are so far past what Tolkien's lore could reasonably be extrapolated to include, it's not even worth pointing out. The entire menagerie of D&D has been imported with a quick stop along the way to pick up some WoW abominations. It's not just the high concept stuff either. My favorite jaw dropping piece of imagination-less absurdity is in Dunland's Epic quest line: The Vengeful Toad. Vengeful, really? As if giant killer toads weren't enough, they have created one that should be saying in best 'Deliverance' style accent "Yew killed mah daddy, now ah'm a gonna kill YEW!"

    http://www.wavsource.com/snds_2013-0...-ignorance.wav

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soarel View Post
    There are various monsters in LOTRO that make the loremaster in me scream...
    Someone didn't read the Silmarillion, because i recall that it states that on the early times there was so much creatures, all sort of creatures like none that can be seen today & cannot be compared & most of them are no more & have been forgotten. This prety much is a free ticket to LOTRO dessigners to include any creature that you can imagine & that you cannot imagine as well. They have been very conservative IMO.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aideani View Post
    ... I definitely remember reading about fire-orcs. Though I don't have an accurate answer, I remember that they were mentioned.
    Yes, in LOTR when the company was at Moria running from the orcs hordes. One of the orcs yelled something about bring the torment & another yelled scared "gash" (fire) & then esploded a huge red flame. That was a fire balrog & we all now the part that come after of Gandalf vs the balrog (i hope)... Gandalf later tell to the hobbits how he followed the balrog to escape from the foundations & how that place was full of unammed foul creatures.
    Last edited by YamydeAragon; Sep 14 2013 at 01:22 PM.

  10. #10
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    I think they did a pretty good balancing act with people asking for pure magic users, marriage, scanty female clothes, flying mounts, changelings, and such. It could be much, much worst.
    Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, totally worn out & proclaiming "WOW, what a ride!"
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  11. #11
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    Oh. For just a minute there, I thought the title of this thread was referring to the devs, and was a call to arms. I'm glad I stopped in to check. Whew! Carry on.

  12. #12
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    Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Nymphonic View Post
    I think they did a pretty good balancing act with people asking for pure magic users, marriage, scanty female clothes, flying mounts, changelings, and such. It could be much, much worst.
    How is marriage in-game a lore break? You know they were going to have it during beta right?

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soarel View Post
    How is marriage in-game a lore break? You know they were going to have it during beta right?
    Because it'd have been truly horrendous in practice, when players got their hands on it (we'd have had Elves marrying hobbits and all manner of other silliness). So typical MMO 'marriage' was out, and a lore-appropriate version would have been a source of endless argument and complaint. So if lore-appropriate 'marriage' wouldn't have gone down well, the alternative would logically have to be lore-breaking in principle, yes?

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soarel View Post
    There are various monsters in LOTRO that make the loremaster in me scream. The Nameless in Moria are one example. They look like aliens--and not just any aliens, but the aliens sometimes called Xenomorphs from the Alien series of movies. Tolkien wrote of nameless things, yes, but not aliens! The ones like World-eater in the Rift of Nurz Ghashu and the Void-eater from Dark Delvings also qualify.

    And then don't get me started on the Gaunt-men and their lords. If these gaunt lords were so powerful and strange, then why were they never recorded in elvish history? Surely if they had a basis in lore, they'd be fine, but no work of Tolkien's contains any of these things.

    Same with those Caerogs...what are they anyway? Earth-elemental Balrogs? Escapees from my D&D game?

    And let's not forget Gwathnor, that interdimensional monstrosity you fight in the instance "New Devilry". Just look at him! He's practically a World of Warcraft refugee! He does NOT belong in a Tolkien based game! Even bloggers have hated on this monstrosity!

    (http://lotrofollower.blogspot.com/2009/03/gwathnor.html)

    Finally, more natural creatures also offend. The Gertheryg are supposed to be sun-resistant, intelligent trolls from the First Age. Where do they come from, and more importantly, why the hell do they even exist?

    Same goes for Fire-orcs, Fire-giants, and various other lava-skinned perversions. Those guys are just plain bizarre.

    Of course, we have things like the Fell Spirts, Ancient Evils, and various other corrupted things (such as Cuthraul and Druggavar). Those have a basis in lore, as the spawn of Morgoth after being cast into the Void.

    But what are these other disgusting things doing in my Arda? How the hell are these Tolkien monsters at all? I get that you need variety and we can't have you fighting orcs and trolls every day, but I can't believe that nobody has brought up the brutal murder of lore these things commit!
    My Arda? LOL, Tolkien wrote it, not you. He. I've said it before and I'll say it again. if you can't handle MMOs you shouldn't play because there is bound to be additions that are meant to attract players. They succeeded and it wouldn't be lorebreaking if it doesn't go against the lore. Too many people abuse the word lorebreak.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Witch0King View Post
    My Arda? LOL, Tolkien wrote it, not you. He. I've said it before and I'll say it again. if you can't handle MMOs you shouldn't play because there is bound to be additions that are meant to attract players. They succeeded and it wouldn't be lorebreaking if it doesn't go against the lore. Too many people abuse the word lorebreak.
    Too many people abuse "it's a game" (which is essentially what you're saying) as a blanket excuse, too. No, not every uninspired addition, nor every silly variation on a theme (like the 'fiery' Orcs the OP mentioned) can be excused so readily. And somehow I very much doubt that's what attracts players, so it seems to me that what you're saying there is bogus.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    Too many people abuse "it's a game" (which is essentially what you're saying) as a blanket excuse, too. No, not every uninspired addition, nor every silly variation on a theme (like the 'fiery' Orcs the OP mentioned) can be excused so readily. And somehow I very much doubt that's what attracts players, so it seems to me that what you're saying there is bogus.
    But it is only a game.... (shrugs...)

    I first thought 'neeker breekers' were silly...but then I discovered on re-reading that Sam calls noise making insects 'neeker breekers' so I then thought this was quite a nifty little game detail. I'm sure the game designers are big Tolkien fans and can read too.

    Balrogs are fire spirits, can find no mention of earthly variations. Or Fire Orcs...but let's be fair here, in a world of trolls, balrogs, orcs et al, is it not reasonable to 'suppose' other such mythic creatures exist?

    On the point of marriage lore breaking....there shouldn't be any issue here. An Elf marrying a Hobbit isn't 'lore breaking' - no more than an Elf marrying a Man - see Aragorn and Arwen, or Luthien and Beren - couple of minor characters from the books... lol

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soarel View Post
    How is marriage in-game a lore break? You know they were going to have it during beta right?
    What I meant is that Turbine did a pretty good balancing act with the lore purists and player's requests. For example, they did bring in some "lore questionable" features like fire orcs and rune keepers, but nothing really outlandish to bring out the torches and pitchforks. I think they knew where to draw the line. Flying mounts, Marriage in game, and probably something else I cannot think of right now really don't have very many people on the fence, most of them are on one side or the other and have no intention of crossing.

    So in that regard I think Turbine did the right thing and made everyone more or less calm by not bringing them in at all.
    Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, totally worn out & proclaiming "WOW, what a ride!"
    [I][FONT=comic sans ms][COLOR=#ffff00]Continuing the never ending battle to keep Lobelia Sackville-Baggins in check[/COLOR][/FONT][/I]

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cjdobs View Post
    But it is only a game.... (shrugs...)
    Does that make stupid stuff automatically okay? I don't think so.

    I first thought 'neeker breekers' were silly...but then I discovered on re-reading that Sam calls noise making insects 'neeker breekers' so I then thought this was quite a nifty little game detail. I'm sure the game designers are big Tolkien fans and can read too.
    Of course they can, but that's hardly the point. They took something that was supposed to be nothing more than an 'evil' cousin of the cricket that made incessant noise and kept the hobbits awake all night, and turned it into a really silly mob. A fun reference would simply have been to have a unending and really annoying 'neek breek, breek neek' background sound effect in the Midgewater Marshes.

    Balrogs are fire spirits, can find no mention of earthly variations. Or Fire Orcs...but let's be fair here, in a world of trolls, balrogs, orcs et al, is it not reasonable to 'suppose' other such mythic creatures exist?
    Of course, but some of the ideas are more than slightly naff. Okay, so the Balrog's a big hunk of burning hate because it's a fire spirit as well as being shady, but the idea that its fire could somehow 'infect' a bunch of Orcs is really, really silly. Set them on fire, sure (if the Balrog were careless, or just 'flamed on' when it got grumpy about something), so that some of the Orcs were burn-scarred and especially grim-looking, but giving them a 'lava' skin was ridiculously literal, showing a comic-book mentality. There's too much of that sort of thing, where they treat evil like it's the "atomic radiation" that used to be the excuse for all the giant monsters in old 'B' movie creature-features. They used the Witch-king as just such an excuse for a load of the sudden monstrosities in SoA, like he's supposed to be just so evil it shines out of his backside and messes things up if he just walks by. That sort of silliness had me face-palming something fierce back then. The point is that besides this, the things often don't come across as persuasively mythical at all but instead as obvious D&Dish fodder for adventurers. Like the giant turtles... oh dear, Especially given that they're based on American snapping turtles (the European turtle is an inoffensive little chap, not a vicious brute who'll bite your fingers off), and doubly so given that the really big boss ones seem to have somehow acquired superpowers. Can we agree that LOTRO's bestiary is something of a mixed bag? There are some neat additions, but equally there are some real howlers.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    Too many people abuse "it's a game" (which is essentially what you're saying) as a blanket excuse, too. No, not every uninspired addition, nor every silly variation on a theme (like the 'fiery' Orcs the OP mentioned) can be excused so readily. And somehow I very much doubt that's what attracts players, so it seems to me that what you're saying there is bogus.
    With all that forum time I doubt you even play the game or know what attracts people to play a game.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Witch0King View Post
    With all that forum time I doubt you even play the game or know what attracts people to play a game.
    Aaaand you just lost every bit of credibility you had.
    Thanks for playing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BirdofHermes View Post
    Aaaand you just lost every bit of credibility you had.
    Thanks for playing.
    and..? got nothing else to add? not even a copy paste from a tolkien site? /sad

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    Does that make stupid stuff automatically okay? I don't think so.


    Of course they can, but that's hardly the point. They took something that was supposed to be nothing more than an 'evil' cousin of the cricket that made incessant noise and kept the hobbits awake all night, and turned it into a really silly mob. A fun reference would simply have been to have a unending and really annoying 'neek breek, breek neek' background sound effect in the Midgewater Marshes.


    Of course, but some of the ideas are more than slightly naff. Okay, so the Balrog's a big hunk of burning hate because it's a fire spirit as well as being shady, but the idea that its fire could somehow 'infect' a bunch of Orcs is really, really silly. Set them on fire, sure (if the Balrog were careless, or just 'flamed on' when it got grumpy about something), so that some of the Orcs were burn-scarred and especially grim-looking, but giving them a 'lava' skin was ridiculously literal, showing a comic-book mentality. There's too much of that sort of thing, where they treat evil like it's the "atomic radiation" that used to be the excuse for all the giant monsters in old 'B' movie creature-features. They used the Witch-king as just such an excuse for a load of the sudden monstrosities in SoA, like he's supposed to be just so evil it shines out of his backside and messes things up if he just walks by. That sort of silliness had me face-palming something fierce back then. The point is that besides this, the things often don't come across as persuasively mythical at all but instead as obvious D&Dish fodder for adventurers. Like the giant turtles... oh dear, Especially given that they're based on American snapping turtles (the European turtle is an inoffensive little chap, not a vicious brute who'll bite your fingers off), and doubly so given that the really big boss ones seem to have somehow acquired superpowers. Can we agree that LOTRO's bestiary is something of a mixed bag? There are some neat additions, but equally there are some real howlers.
    We certainly can agree on that - I'm feeling very affable today

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    Quote Originally Posted by Witch0King View Post
    With all that forum time I doubt you even play the game or know what attracts people to play a game.
    I rather doubt anyone was attracted to play this game by the promise of being able to fight giant slugs, evil crickets, or Orcs who look like they've been reskinned with pizza

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    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    I rather doubt anyone was attracted to play this game by the promise of being able to fight giant slugs, evil crickets, or Orcs who look like they've been reskinned with pizza
    Seriously though, if we were to delete all the lorebreaking stuff in this game we might aswell delete our character. I just know I'd rather fight a large dragon-like creature then one man capable of fighting 6/12 heroes at once. Now with all due respect I'll just leave this section of the forums altogether so I won't read replies. The people here and me don't really go well together. Ciao

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    Quote Originally Posted by Witch0King View Post
    Seriously though, if we were to delete all the lorebreaking stuff in this game we might aswell delete our character. I just know I'd rather fight a large dragon-like creature then one man capable of fighting 6/12 heroes at once. Now with all due respect I'll just leave this section of the forums altogether so I won't read replies. The people here and me don't really go well together. Ciao
    Huh. Thing is, I didn't say anything about 'lore-breaking' at all, just commented on stuff that's silly or a bit rubbish. Bit of a difference there.

 

 
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