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  1. #1
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    Warden Update Pre-Dev Diary

    Since we'll be the last class to get out dev diary I thought this would spark some discussion.



    https://www.lotro.com/en/content/revitalize-your-role

    First off, hobbit wardens are the worst.

    Recklessness: Ok, still dependent on bleeds. "No respite for the wicked", is that a PVE bonus. Incoming healing doesn't affect most bosses I remember fighting. Probably going to be OP in moors.

    Determination: Finishing a string of gambits by choosing a skill....not really sure what that mean. Disco Challenge looks good on paper.

    Assailment: Debuff and marking targets.

    I'm interested in reading more, but I really want to know how the trees limit/grant gambits to each build. Thoughts?

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hundolf View Post
    Determination: Finishing a string of gambits by choosing a skill....not really sure what that mean.
    I hope it doesn't mean what it says.

  3. #3
    I disagree. Hobbit Warden's are the best!
    I have no signature

  4. #4
    Initial reaction is i don't like it one bit. But i guess i should at least wait for the dev diary before i decide i completely hate it. I'm curious what it means by cash-out skill, like trade in the bleeds on the target maybe, and what kind of utility you get from using it. Side note: i like the incoming heal debuff is being decoupled from the moors armor and will just be part of the class; i was worried that i would lose that set bonus come HD.
    Last edited by kohkohpuffs; Sep 12 2013 at 04:30 PM.

  5. #5
    The NDA lift can't come soon enough as there's almost nothing to go on from this, and turbine has traditionally struggled with getting this class right since Graalx2 was no longer dev.

    i do like that the offensive strike line is getting more utility.

    It says finishing a string by choosing one of two skills has me more than a little nervous, especially since it doesn't say one of two gambits. New clickies will be VERY unwelcome.

    Assailment is being billed as viable for soloing, and providing buffs for melee combat, which means either the min range limitation is being removed (and hopefully all gambits will be useable at range, too) or stance dancing will remain intact. I'm hoping for the former. The champ Dev diary should at least set the stage for how classes that can currently stance dance at will should pan out for us.
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    The NDA lift can't come soon enough as there's almost nothing to go on from this, and turbine has traditionally struggled with getting this class right since Graalx2 was no longer dev.
    Truth.

    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    It says finishing a string by choosing one of two skills has me more than a little nervous, especially since it doesn't say one of two gambits. New clickies will be VERY unwelcome.
    Precisely what I inferred from the language in HD announcement. New clickies, especially ones that are embedded in the core gambit rotation, would completely wreck the playstyle and feel of this class.

  7. #7
    @LagunaD: Hey, nice to see a familiar name.

    Redesigning the class? That's great news. I lost all desire to play the class when the gambits changed depending on the stance. I hope they introduce something to make me come back. When are the changes due?
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0920d0000001745d1/01003/signature.png]Imyr[/charsig]

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by LagunaD View Post
    Precisely what I inferred from the language in HD announcement. New clickies, especially ones that are embedded in the core gambit rotation, would completely wreck the playstyle and feel of this class.
    All the more reason to be sad that 'Wardens' are last alphabetically.

    They've certainly felt different since +Graalx2 left us.
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crell_1 View Post
    All the more reason to be sad that 'Wardens' are last alphabetically.

    They've certainly felt different since +Graalx2 left us.
    What about after Orion left?

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Hundolf View Post
    What about after Orion left?
    The work Deviled_Egg put in with RoR and beyond has felt like a continuation of what Orion did in U6, which is fundamentally different than what it was like with Graalx2 (I think this shift has its merits and flaws, though I am a supporter of the drastically different stance effects). The adjustments that have gone on for RoR and sooner continue to illustrate a class that the Devs have difficulty balancing to the content provided. Most notably I think det self-heals are stronger relative to our level at 85 than 75, yet content at 85 is relatively easier than at 75.
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  11. #11
    I think they've decided to build on stacking gambit effects. This could pan out in one of two ways, way number one being an expansion of how we currently work. Way number two, God forbid this is what they have planned, would be to make us minis with gambits/tank instead of ballad things/healers. God forbid.

    Your heart is heavy in the face of such evil. +8 dread.

  12. #12
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    In my view, none of the devs since Graalx2 (peace be unto him) has really understood the class well enough.

    Orion probably understood it at a technical level, but his period of stewardship was the darkest in the history of Warden-dom, and many of the half-finished ideas he left us with are still half-finished.

    I agree with Deso that since Orion there has been no sign of any new or independent development thought. In RoR we got two nearly identical gambits when one of them would have been just fine. At least we did not have another RoI style melt-down, for which the current management deserves some credit.

    Other than Assailment (maybe) taking another step toward being a coherent PvE spec, I don't see much in the HD Warden blurb to inspire confidence, and some of it sounds like it could be disastrous.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    It says finishing a string by choosing one of two skills has me more than a little nervous, especially since it doesn't say one of two gambits. New clickies will be VERY unwelcome.
    Agreed. I think it would be nice if Turbine adds different gambit chains like "Gambit1 -> Gambit2 -> Gambit 3" results in effect "X" and "Gambit1 -> Gambit2 -> Gambit 4" results in effect "Y", roughly similar to what they did with the bleeds/bonus damage for Power Attack -> Mighty Blow -> Unerring Strike.

    Replacing the gambit that triggers the (bonus) effect with something like a Minstrels Coda - a separate button - wouldn't be so nice. Depending on how desperate they are to adhere to the "20 skills" paradigm however, it might be possible though they follow this line of thinking.

    Oh well, time - and lifting the NDA - will tell
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    The work Deviled_Egg put in with RoR and beyond has felt like a continuation of what Orion did in U6
    pretty sure Egg is our developer still. I do trust class revamps too considering every class revamp we've had in the game might look like a nurf at first, but has expanded gameplay for the better later. I worry about more clickies too :/ but I hope egg won't let us down there as we're mis-reading this.

    Most notably I think det self-heals are stronger relative to our level at 85 than 75, yet content at 85 is relatively easier than at 75.
    before or after U10's damage nurfs

    we were nicely balanced before U10 RoR tbh. content was tough, b/p/e was more important than hots with a healer behind us to brush off some 10k+ crits. it was more that other people didn't scale up correctly with us which made it hard. I'm sure if they left U10's damage values in, we would have seen a shift in idea's with dps classes going more survival than dps and debuffers/CC being used again.

    but at the same time, if damage scaling was broken at 85, it would only get worse at 95. lets hope we see class synergy in the groups get better. our "op" class sure could do with some hard mode again.
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  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by bohbashum View Post
    pretty sure Egg is our developer still. I do trust class revamps too considering every class revamp we've had in the game might look like a nurf at first, but has expanded gameplay for the better later. I worry about more clickies too :/ but I hope egg won't let us down there as we're mis-reading this.


    before or after U10's damage nurfs

    we were nicely balanced before U10 RoR tbh. content was tough, b/p/e was more important than hots with a healer behind us to brush off some 10k+ crits. it was more that other people didn't scale up correctly with us which made it hard. I'm sure if they left U10's damage values in, we would have seen a shift in idea's with dps classes going more survival than dps and debuffers/CC being used again.

    but at the same time, if damage scaling was broken at 85, it would only get worse at 95. lets hope we see class synergy in the groups get better. our "op" class sure could do with some hard mode again.
    I'm generally my own largest source of heals when I tank. The same was true pre-U10 when i was tanking. this wasn't quite true (though close) during RoI
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  16. #16
    I was worried with the general over view of the class revamp, now I am thinking my time in middle earth is coming to a close. I am pretty much a solo player, and so far all I am seeing is you will be stuck in to one role at a time. I love being able to switch from dps to healing myself in a pinch. Stance dancing is a big part of that, Turbine please don't screw that up. If wardens get to specialized I am gone. I am waiting to see what they have planned and will not pre-order anything until I am sure my warden will remain a Swiss army knife.
    Death is my favorite interrupt skill

  17. #17
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    If this is anything to go off of, you can probably bet that there's going to be skills added to the warden.

    I don't think I like the way it sounds like they've knocked away the fluidity of warden gameplay. Each line sounds like it's going to inherently play off differently than the other. Hopefully it still feels like one class.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by artax33 View Post
    I was worried with the general over view of the class revamp, now I am thinking my time in middle earth is coming to a close. I am pretty much a solo player, and so far all I am seeing is you will be stuck in to one role at a time. I love being able to switch from dps to healing myself in a pinch. Stance dancing is a big part of that, Turbine please don't screw that up. If wardens get to specialized I am gone. I am waiting to see what they have planned and will not pre-order anything until I am sure my warden will remain a Swiss army knife.
    Where are you getting the idea that stances are going away, or that self-healing is going away? You won't be as good at self healing if you are traited for DPS or in a DPS stance, but that's true today as well. What will change is that changing to an entirely different trait line is a couple of clicks away. Imagine soloing an instance. You use your DPS traits for blowing through all the trash mobs, then when you get to the boss, you switch to your tanking traits and take him out. No need to exit the instance and seek out a Bard, or go slower through the trash mobs because you started with tanking traits. Ditto when you're waiting for a group to form -- you can go mess around using your DPS traits, and then pop right into the group's instance and switch to tanking traits once the group is ready.

    I'm intrigued that the description of Assailment includes buffs for melee combat. For solo play, it would certainly be nice to have a stance and possible trait line that doesn't focus on bleeds, since for normal mobs they don't live long enough for a bleed to have much effect. That said, the current longer delay between builders in Assailment takes out the rapid feel that the other stances have -- so even if they do remove the !@#$! minimum distance for some gambits and builders, they playstyle might still be too jerky to be enjoyable for normal use. The devil is in the details/implementation... :-)

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Svella View Post
    Agreed. I think it would be nice if Turbine adds different gambit chains like "Gambit1 -> Gambit2 -> Gambit 3" results in effect "X" and "Gambit1 -> Gambit2 -> Gambit 4" results in effect "Y", roughly similar to what they did with the bleeds/bonus damage for Power Attack -> Mighty Blow -> Unerring Strike.

    Replacing the gambit that triggers the (bonus) effect with something like a Minstrels Coda - a separate button - wouldn't be so nice. Depending on how desperate they are to adhere to the "20 skills" paradigm however, it might be possible though they follow this line of thinking.

    Oh well, time - and lifting the NDA - will tell
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but does this sound terrifyingly similar to how a WoW deathknight works? Don't they use skills to build runepower or something, then a finisher for a more powerful effect? Come to think of it, the others do as well, potent debuffs and aoe cash in skills, no? If this is the DKification of wardens, I'm afraid we will be having clickies like a minstrils coda. Again, please tell me if my whole conception of DK is wrong, I don't play WoW, this is just what I've heard from my friends who do.

  20. #20
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    FYI: Champs are losing stances all together. You get them based on your tree.

    https://www.lotro.com/en/game/articl...E2%80%99s-deep

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Hundolf View Post
    FYI: Champs are losing stances all together. You get them based on your tree.

    https://www.lotro.com/en/game/articl...E2%80%99s-deep
    yup. If wardens follow suit, this could be one of the best changes the class has ever seen, or one of the worst. Skill pruning is making me skeptical, since we'd be left with just a half-dozen gambits for each role the stances used to fill.
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  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by wannabe_falconer View Post
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but does this sound terrifyingly similar to how a WoW deathknight works? Don't they use skills to build runepower or something, then a finisher for a more powerful effect? Come to think of it, the others do as well, potent debuffs and aoe cash in skills, no? If this is the DKification of wardens, I'm afraid we will be having clickies like a minstrils coda. Again, please tell me if my whole conception of DK is wrong, I don't play WoW, this is just what I've heard from my friends who do.
    I'd say you're pretty far off-base about how DKs work. DKs have about half a dozen different types of resources (depending on spec and how you count) that they try to keep from capping out (since anything capped out wastes your regeneration of the resource) by using different abilities. They have 3 main resources (rune-types) that they spend in different combinations to use their main abilities, and using those resources grants them a power-like resource that's consumed by a couple other abilities. Using *those* can accelerate the regeneration of the first 3 types of resource, or generate a fourth, "wild card" rune that functions as any one of the other three. Really the only thing they have in common with Wardens is being extremely over-powered when played to their full potential, like soloing raid bosses with an enrage timer on-level...

    Anyway, I agree with you - leave the coda-style finishers to the Minstrels.

  23. #23
    Ah, so I was mistaken. Also, enrage timer?
    Last edited by wannabe_falconer; Sep 13 2013 at 10:02 PM.

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by wannabe_falconer View Post
    Ah, so I was mistaken. Also, enrage timer?
    many other games have an enrage timer built into instances as a difficulty mechanic. Its rather unimaginative, but to prevent heal stacked groups from just slowly whittling down a boss, there is a hidden 'enrage' timer where if the boss is not killed within X amount of time, they just one-shot everyone, or similarly wipe the group/fail the quest, etc.
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  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    many other games have an enrage timer built into instances as a difficulty mechanic. Its rather unimaginative, but to prevent heal stacked groups from just slowly whittling down a boss, there is a hidden 'enrage' timer where if the boss is not killed within X amount of time, they just one-shot everyone, or similarly wipe the group/fail the quest, etc.
    Well, that's a bit harsh but pretty much correct. I wouldn't say it is usually hidden.

    Many fights have an "enrage mechanic" that limits the amount of time available. A timer is a "hard enrage", meaning that you will be dead very shortly after the time limit, although it's not impossible to down the boss a few seconds after, if he goes down the threat list and kills people one by one. Webs of the Scuttledells has a hard enrage timer on the final boss, by the way, at least on T2 (although that one is insta-wipe).

    Other fights have a "soft enrage" mechanic that makes the fight become progressively more difficult over time, and eventually impossible. This can take many forms: a buff that slowly stacks on the boss, a debuff or DoT that gradually stacks on the raid, increasing or accelerating waves of adds, filling the area with deadly effects until there's nowhere left to fight, or just some combination of mechanics that make it very likely the healers will eventually run out of power or the tanks will eventually run out of health. The Moria Turtle raid is (or was) a classic example of a soft enrage mechanic (although it was seriously under-tuned and flawed in other ways, like a lot of content in LotRO).

    Personally, I think enrage mechanics are fine if they aren't the primary element of the fight (which was the biggest flaw of the Turtle raid). They not only discourage unbalanced groups, they also challenge the DPS roles to perform, and work best in fights where the DPS have to maximize their output while moving, switching targets and dealing with adds, avoiding hazards, etc. An enrage mechanic on a boss who stands there while you beat on him like a training dummy (again, the Turtle) is just dumb. But without some kind of meaningful pressure on the DPS, success or failure is left entirely in the hands of the tanks, healers and maybe support classes.

    Anyway, I digress...

 

 
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