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  1. #1
    Join Date
    May 2012
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    "revitalize" your role ?

    While it may be worth waiting for a more detailed Dev Diary on the class before drawing conclusions, the new three-paragraph blurb on the Lore-master revamp (posted in Helms Deep pre-order info, scroll down on this page: https://www.lotro.com/en/content/revitalize-your-role ) already allows a handful of conclusions be drawn.

    Predictably, Lightning Storm is now gated behind MoNF - not surprising.

    Inner Flame (gated behind KoA) remains the channeled self-and-pet heal that it has been - quite strange it survived the skill pruning at all, being among the least-convenient skills to use. And it's still channeled. Well, now that the debuffs seem to be specific to AM (only 'seem' based on limited info so far available, and I hope I'm wrong), and most damage skills specific to MoNF, maybe there really isn't much else for a KoA-spec LM to do in a fight than stand locked in place for 17ish seconds waving arms Instead of transferring threat, it now builds a fire damage buff. A lot of good that would do in a KoA line.

    Fire-Lore will now reduce a mob's physical mitigation - wonder if this is a trait spec bonus or whether this will be the updated default skill replacing the incoming damage debuff. If the latter, that would be abysmal.

    I am no longer as optimistic about the upcoming class changes as I was in the wake of the dev twitter chat. In trying to shelf an advanced support class into 3 painstakingly specific compartments, of which only one can be active at a time, the entire forest is missed for the trees. It's been said the revamp is about "choices". Yet, apparently, forgetting that the real choices are made by the player, in combat, when selecting which skills to use when from the fully available and vast arsenal. That, to me, is the whole fun and challenge in playing LM. And that is also the reason I have only one full-time active character - the versatility of the class has been what's kept me playing. Still hoping like an optimistic fool that the LM class devs kept that versatility in mind for the revamp and there's more subtleties there than the one-size-fit-all roughshod pigeonhole pattern the skill trees sound like so far.
    Éala Éarendel engla beorhtast / ofer middangeard monnum sended / and sodfasta sunnan leoma, / tohrt ofer tunglas þu tida gehvane / of sylfum þe symle inlihtes.

  2. #2
    Well I'll be. I always thought the Lore-master was inspired by Gandalf or Radagast. Elrond, huh? Where have I been?

    As for the other stuff, dude, I don't know. It's three skills out of thirty without tool-tips even. Hard to say much with that little to go on.


    EDIT: It is interesting though the language about Fire-lore spreading to more targets upon ranking. I wonder if that means the concept of Deep Lore has been changed from a global increase to a per skill increase.
    Last edited by kriskrosed; Sep 12 2013 at 02:51 PM. Reason: More thinkin'
    85 LM Berewen, 85 Burg Balculus, 85 Guard Benferth

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    1,364
    Inner Flame 2.0 could be useful as part of a bog-lurker DPS build. I went blue line to solo Limlight Gorge at 85 and the constant lurker flank heals were much more useful than extra DPS from red line. A fire buff on IF would be a nice complement. Not so useful if you're traiting blue to heal a 3-man or something, of course.

    I'm hesistantly hopeful that things will work out all right. I most enjoy running full yellow but I haven't needed that since Orthanc. Maybe it will get better? *fingers crossed*

  4. #4
    I am with you OP. I have been one of the people saying that it's best not to get too worked up over such limited information. On the one hand, that's still true. However, it is starting to look a little scary out there.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
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    Hamilton, NY
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    3,699
    Quote Originally Posted by kriskrosed View Post
    Well I'll be. I always thought the Lore-master was inspired by Gandalf or Radagast. Elrond, huh? Where have I been?
    Yep. Certain parts are influenced by Gandalf and Radagast, but the point was to make a class that didn't actually use magic, so it was mainly based on Elrond. From what I understand, anyway.
    [CENTER][IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v341/tindragon/Base.png[/IMG]
    Steam: Sneakeh Snake[/CENTER]

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by TinDragon View Post
    Yep. Certain parts are influenced by Gandalf and Radagast, but the point was to make a class that didn't actually use magic, so it was mainly based on Elrond. From what I understand, anyway.
    Think it was the parts of the class that walk the line between lore and overt acts of magic that threw me like the Harmony with Nature trait. Heck, Tactically Adept is called Magically Adept in the deed log. Even ran back to the original Prima guide to find where I knew I remembered it showing the class was based on the wizards. Wasn't there, of course.
    85 LM Berewen, 85 Burg Balculus, 85 Guard Benferth

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by kriskrosed View Post
    Think it was the parts of the class that walk the line between lore and overt acts of magic that threw me like the Harmony with Nature trait. Heck, Tactically Adept is called Magically Adept in the deed log. Even ran back to the original Prima guide to find where I knew I remembered it showing the class was based on the wizards. Wasn't there, of course.
    hehe not to mention some skills and their animations even *cough* LotRD, Fire-lore, Storm-Lore, Cracked Earth, Burning Embers and a couple others. Ooops i did mention them :P

    But irs really fine with me to call us elrondlike class if just to explain our place in ME and still get our skills from Gandalf/Radagast/Saruman and those other 2 guys

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
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    136
    I agree. The power in any class is the availability of all their skills at any given time, and the ways they find to use them to overcome the odds in a fight. The current trait system allows you to tweak the skills so they become more powerful in certain ways, but if they are going to gate skills behind a certain spec so that you can no longer have debuff skills and dps skills available at the same time then it kind of ruins the game.

    I'm hoping that the new spec trees won't overtly remove skills from your bar, but like the current system, allow you to just make them more or less powerful.

    Sure I enjoy being support/debuffer, but in a big fight I like to be able to toss Lightning Storm and Ents in there to help out (and because it is satisfying watching the graphics).

    If I now have to choose, be able to help with debuffs OR be able to use the best looking skill in the game with good AoE dmg...well it ruins the game for me. Not sure I'll keep playing, but I'll wait until the release of the xpack before deciding for sure.

    Pigeonholing players into a specific role is pretty boring, lacks imagination, has been done 100's of times in 100's of other games, and really removes "choice" from the game by limiting what choices you can make while playing.

    Let's hope they don't ruin the game with it.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0520a010000295b79/signature.png]Hoshmog[/charsig]

  9. #9
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    Apr 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by Herwegur View Post
    I am no longer as optimistic about the upcoming class changes as I was in the wake of the dev twitter chat. In trying to shelf an advanced support class into 3 painstakingly specific compartments, of which only one can be active at a time, the entire forest is missed for the trees. It's been said the revamp is about "choices". Yet, apparently, forgetting that the real choices are made by the player, in combat, when selecting which skills to use when from the fully available and vast arsenal.
    Well said, if I could +rep you, I would have.

    Quote Originally Posted by Herwegur View Post
    That, to me, is the whole fun and challenge in playing LM. And that is also the reason I have only one full-time active character - the versatility of the class has been what's kept me playing.
    Same with me, I may trait MoNF, but not for one instant will my opponent go without debuffs or CC. Choices...

    Quote Originally Posted by Herwegur View Post
    Still hoping like an optimistic fool that the LM class devs kept that versatility in mind for the revamp and there's more subtleties there than the one-size-fit-all roughshod pigeonhole pattern the skill trees sound like so far.
    Same here. If I am pigeon-holed onto trees that have no overlap, then I am done with the game after 7+ years. I can understnad nerfing the other "non-traited" skills, but don't remove them from our arsenal.

    You did a fantastic job of summing up in your post, well said.
    Irin r8 Hunter // Arngar r8 Burg // Akthuri r15 LM // Vishus r5 Captain // Curad r10 (active) Mini

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Irin19 View Post
    Same with me, I may trait MoNF, but not for one instant will my opponent go without debuffs or CC. Choices...
    Please understand I'm not asking this in a patronizing way; I'm legitimately curious about how you see things.

    How is it a choice when you can do both at the same time? To me, that's the really fun yet really imbalanced thing about LMs right now. You can do pretty much everything traited red that you would in other lines and fill a dps slot, support slot, and healer slot in a group all at the same time. T2 raids excluded, of course.
    85 LM Berewen, 85 Burg Balculus, 85 Guard Benferth

  11. #11
    It's Just what our class is about. Traited red CE aside we have very weak CC. The fact that aside T2 raids LM is not in need of retraiting could very well be corrected as another said earlier by nerfing the skill if untraited but still have it there. The fun of playing the LM is that u r never at ease. So many things u can do... They are taking this away. So LM is gonna be just another basic difficulty class. 20 skills? really? What kind of LORE master is that???

  12. #12
    Join Date
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    Quote Originally Posted by kriskrosed View Post
    Please understand I'm not asking this in a patronizing way; I'm legitimately curious about how you see things.

    How is it a choice when you can do both at the same time? To me, that's the really fun yet really imbalanced thing about LMs right now. You can do pretty much everything traited red that you would in other lines and fill a dps slot, support slot, and healer slot in a group all at the same time. T2 raids excluded, of course.
    So, to answer your question...

    Everything is a sacrifice based on other choices you make.

    I will always debuff my opponent, even if I am traited red line, but I make sacrifices. Okay, let's put a scenario to this so everyone can better understand...

    T2 Smaug (which I hate, I couldn't be more bored doing something):

    I trait FULL red line and so does the other LM in the group. By doing so I can clearly dish out max punishment, but part of my job is to keep frost-lore on the boss. Well traiting this way the CD on frost lore is longer than I can apply the skill for (trade off) and the debuff is less (trade off) but the other LM will apply frost lore while mine is down.

    The mobs, I fire lore as I run by, but it affects less of them and is only on them for a shorter period of time BUT with sticky gourd traited I contribute greatly to their demise. It's all a balancing act.

    The choice is in what you decide you want to emphasize, in so doing you need to trait differently, have different legacies (or multilpe LI's). Choice.
    Irin r8 Hunter // Arngar r8 Burg // Akthuri r15 LM // Vishus r5 Captain // Curad r10 (active) Mini

  13. #13
    No worries, I'm so overflowing with optimism that there is enough for everyone

    Say some creeps are knocking on your keep's door. Flip into a saved trait set with maxed Inner Flame, channel for the buff, switch back to a DPS trait set and throw the heat. Once burning embers are stacked, time for FIRE LIGHTNING!

    I'm also excited to try out Sic 'Em and whether or not a pet-master build is now fun to play (for me personally, I know some LM's enjoy utilizing their pets to a greater degree than I do).

  14. #14
    I guess I'm still having trouble seeing the choices or sacrifices, if I can call them that.

    In your example, 50% coverage of Frost-lore on the grim is overcome by a second lore-master. So the only sacrifice there is an extra 5% of mitigation.

    For the adds, less debuffs are overcome by more dps. In fact, by swapping in an LI with the Fire-lore legacy before casting and then swapping out after, it's possible to debuff the entire group of adds anyway. Yes, the duration is only 30 seconds, but most of them don't live that long. Similar argument with Ancient Craft. SoP: Command works the same traited yellow or red.

    So in essence, besides a small boost to debuffs, it's possible to keep all the capabilities of traiting yellow while still traiting red in that raid. Not much of a sacrifice.

    Then add the fact that we can heal 90% as well traited red as we can traited blue. Not much sacrifice there either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Irin19 View Post
    The choice is in what you decide you want to emphasize, in so doing you need to trait differently, have different legacies (or multiple LI's). Choice.
    That's what I'm having trouble understanding. I'm not seeing see how anything has been emphasized over the other. I see how gear was used and group build and things, but I don't see how any sacrifices were really made by traiting red.

    I hope this isn't turning into another AM vs. MoNF thread. Trying to discuss viewpoints here. Should we be constrained by traits or be constrained by time? Or rather, should we have to make sacrifices in build or sacrifices in what we spend our time on in battle? Or should we have to make sacrifices at all? A lot of our skills are on long cool-downs and have long durations leaving time to execute them all. Plus, they retain such potency that there is worth in doing so. Seems to have become imbalanced now, and yet, Pithrandir, as you alluded to, that's exactly how they were designed to work in the first place. Tension.

    I am playing Devil's Advocate here. I really do love the class how it currently plays. I also think the argument that content should change rather than class make-up was worth discussing. I just don't see how lore-masters have to make many sacrifices with the way the class is currently constructed.
    Last edited by kriskrosed; Sep 14 2013 at 03:28 PM.
    85 LM Berewen, 85 Burg Balculus, 85 Guard Benferth

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
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    Quote Originally Posted by Disparia View Post
    No worries, I'm so overflowing with optimism that there is enough for everyone

    Say some creeps are knocking on your keep's door. Flip into a saved trait set with maxed Inner Flame, channel for the buff, switch back to a DPS trait set and throw the heat. Once burning embers are stacked, time for FIRE LIGHTNING!

    I'm also excited to try out Sic 'Em and whether or not a pet-master build is now fun to play (for me personally, I know some LM's enjoy utilizing their pets to a greater degree than I do).
    One huge flaw in your plan. You have to be out of combat to flip trait sets.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Darlgon View Post
    One huge flaw in your plan. You have to be out of combat to flip trait sets.
    I am out of combat in my example. That's why I mention that I flip, then fight.

 

 

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