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  1. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by whheydt View Post
    And--conversely--if Turbine does go in the direction with regard to gear that that segment of the population wants, a lot of other people won't like it very much. How tough that call becomes depends very much on how much revenue is attributable to each segment of the player population.
    Quote Originally Posted by RicardoFurriel View Post
    Are you saying you are purchasing HD with TPs?

    The silence is deafening.
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  2. #127
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    I don't really understand the continued use of the term "playstyles" within the context of LotRO.
    I mean, all that's left is questing, "exploring" and (essentially) skirmishing. PvP and raiding development are not supported by Turbine and remain vestiges of the game of yore. Their minority numbers are now even less than a minority.

    We already know which niche Turbine caters to forevermore. It's the niche that can't define themselves as anything other than not raiders, not PvPers, not group players... Not anything other than hapless wanderers content to eat whatever semblance of a bone is tossed in their general direction. That's who LotRO caters to.

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  3. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southpa View Post
    It's the niche that can't define themselves as anything other than not raiders, not PvPers, not group players...
    I'm a casual soloer, 95% of the time. Easily 4.5% of the other 5%, I'm duoing. The fact that all of the Epic Battles have a Solo/Duo option to them is awesome. I do wish they'd scale the others to various sizes too, so players who like 3- 6- or 12- had as broad a choice. Perhaps that will be expanded later.

    Like most people, I define myself more by what I like than by what I don't. I like questing. I like stories. I like housing. I like Fishing (at least in games which support it better). I like exploring, collecting stuff, crafting, getting great gear. The only reason I care about raids/instances/PvMP at all is to the degree they intrude on what I like. That's why some raider's insistence on exclusive access to the best gear annoys me so much. If there were broad agreement on a Comparable Incomparables approach to rewards, I'd shut up and just go enjoy it... Turbine's original vision for that is what I've always wanted in this game.

    Khafar
    Last edited by Khafar; Oct 04 2013 at 10:28 PM.

  4. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khafar View Post
    I'm a casual soloer, 95% of the time. Easily 4.5% of the other 5%, I'm duoing. The fact that all of the Epic Battles have a Solo/Duo option to them is awesome. I do wish they'd scale the others to various sizes too, so players who like 3- 6- or 12- had as broad a choice. Perhaps that will be expanded later.

    Like most people, I define myself more by what I like than by what I don't. I like questing. I like stories. I like housing. I like Fishing (at least in games which support it better). I like exploring, collecting stuff, crafting, getting great gear. The only reason I care about raids/instances/PvMP at all is to the degree they intrude on what I like. That's why some raider's insistence on exclusive access to the best gear annoys me so much. If there were broad agreement on a Comparable Incomparables approach to rewards, I'd shut up and just go enjoy it... Turbine's original vision for that is what I've always wanted in this game.

    Khafar
    How do other aspects of the game "intrude" on what you like to do?
    I assume you, like all "good" players, play the game for the content, not the reward... if not, for shame. Raiders have always been repeatedly admonished by non-raiders here for their seemingly whacked emphasis on loot and lectured that they should play it for the content. This is even though most of the raiders I played with rarely placed much of any focus on it at all. We certainly didn't need it... ironic from my side, ignorant from the other.

    What really gets me is that raiding or PvP here was not likely partaken of by much more or less a percentage of the player base than any other MMO, yet other developers still find the merit in the support and continued development of those modes of play.

    There is no better way to tell segments of your player base to piss-off than to repeatedly remind them they are a minority that doesn't warrant investing in.
    Wise business move? I guess we'll see, won't we.
    My bet is not. Turbine is in the business of digging holes these days...

    And to address your final words, any developer that takes over 6 years to realize the "original vision" of the game is laughable.

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  5. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southpa View Post
    How do other aspects of the game "intrude" on what you like to do?
    Well... PvMP balancing should never, ever impact PvE. And vice versa. Turbine hasn't done a lot of that, but some, and I hate it when they do. Rewards should be roughly comparable for any playing style. Everyone likes great rewards, and raiders aren't admonished for liking great stuff - they're admonished for demanding that their great rewards be exclusive to raiding, and for saying that if it weren't for the exclusive rewards, nobody would raid.

    There is no better way to tell segments of your player base to piss-off than to repeatedly remind them they are a minority that doesn't warrant investing in.
    Probably, but it's not wise to let people run around with unrealistic expectations either. As Sapience put it, it simply doesn't make any sense to spend a large percentage of resources on just 10% of the players. However, he also said that it doesn't make any sense to spend 0% on 10% of the players. He's correct on both counts. What he didn't say (but I suspect is implied) is that people in smallish constituencies simply cannot expect to get something every single year... but that doesn't mean they won't get something ever. That's been true for PvMP, and for housing enthusiasts too.

    any developer that takes over 6 years to realize the "original vision" of the game is laughable.
    I think it just proved to be too expensive to do, given the number of subscribers they had. Doing class-specific gear is quite a lot already, and when you multiply that by 5 playing styles... it's enormous. It was a great vision, though.

    Khafar

  6. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khafar View Post
    Well... PvMP balancing should never, ever impact PvE. And vice versa. Turbine hasn't done a lot of that, but some, and I hate it when they do.
    Exactly what balancing for PvP has impacted what you do in PvE?
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  7. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khafar View Post
    Well... PvMP balancing should never, ever impact PvE. And vice versa. Turbine hasn't done a lot of that, but some, and I hate it when they do. Rewards should be roughly comparable for any playing style. Everyone likes great rewards, and raiders aren't admonished for liking great stuff - they're admonished for demanding that their great rewards be exclusive to raiding, and for saying that if it weren't for the exclusive rewards, nobody would raid.
    What balance issues does a mainly solo-dualer face? In what perspective?

    Quote Originally Posted by Khafar View Post
    Probably, but it's not wise to let people run around with unrealistic expectations either. As Sapience put it, it simply doesn't make any sense to spend a large percentage of resources on just 10% of the players. However, he also said that it doesn't make any sense to spend 0% on 10% of the players. He's correct on both counts. What he didn't say (but I suspect is implied) is that people in smallish constituencies simply cannot expect to get something every single year... but that doesn't mean they won't get something ever. That's been true for PvMP, and for housing enthusiasts too.
    Fair enough. But if they completely withhold new content that is desired by a segment of their customer base, do they honestly think that segment is going to wait it out a year.... or more?

    Quote Originally Posted by Khafar View Post
    I think it just proved to be too expensive to do, given the number of subscribers they had. Doing class-specific gear is quite a lot already, and when you multiply that by 5 playing styles... it's enormous. It was a great vision, though.
    What's the difference between raid gear and Hytbold-esque gear? They made 3 sets of that x 9.
    And I imagine there are templates for all that stuff that one FTE could knock-out in under a day... it's not rocket science, it's putting numbers in a table.
    Doing what they did will not increase the success of this game, but I doubt anything could at this point.

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  8. #133
    All I would say is be careful what you wish for. I have a feeling that in 6-12 months people are going to be wishing our single digit playstyle ppl were still playing, and that maybe it was a vocal (posting wise) minority that caused this train wreck.

    But oh well. There are always other games.

  9. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southpa View Post
    What balance issues does a mainly solo-dualer face?
    Come on. PvE players care about their skills and equipment too, whether or not they're big into grouping. I can't remember the specific example at the moment, but Turbine did make a few PvP-related changes that impacted PvE in the first year the game was out. Maybe whheydt remembers without having to go look through release notes in the Wayback Machine. Later, they were more careful not to do that (i.e. making Desperate Flight an OOC skill in the moors).

    Fair enough. But if they completely withhold new content that is desired by a segment of their customer base, do they honestly think that segment is going to wait it out a year.... or more?
    Maybe, maybe not. But if retaining a 10% segment requires spending (say) 40% of their resources on them year after year, that simply isn't very realistic. Not unless those players are spending an average of 4X as much as others are.

    Khafar

  10. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by whheydt View Post
    I don't think you can draw that conclusion from this expansion. Turbine has said that there is nowhere suitable in Western Rohan for traditional raids and instances, they just don't fit the story or the situation. A large 'set piece" battle *does* fit the time and location. That doesn't say that future areas *won't* have situations that fit instances up to raid size.
    That’s BS, turbine can break lore when it profits from it....
    We have seen countless questionable acts being implemented in this game a few instances will not hurt anyone.
    I have no problem with 3-4 really good 6 man instances, i might even start playing again, but to say turbine suddenly cares about game lore is the funniest thing i have ever herd.

    I’m sure the location of western rohan is just perfect for loot boxes and motorboat steeds so making up a few raids is not out of scope for them.

  11. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southpa View Post
    How do other aspects of the game "intrude" on what you like to do?
    I assume you, like all "good" players, play the game for the content, not the reward... if not, for shame. Raiders have always been repeatedly admonished by non-raiders here for their seemingly whacked emphasis on loot and lectured that they should play it for the content. This is even though most of the raiders I played with rarely placed much of any focus on it at all. We certainly didn't need it... ironic from my side, ignorant from the other.

    What really gets me is that raiding or PvP here was not likely partaken of by much more or less a percentage of the player base than any other MMO, yet other developers still find the merit in the support and continued development of those modes of play.

    There is no better way to tell segments of your player base to piss-off than to repeatedly remind them they are a minority that doesn't warrant investing in.
    Wise business move? I guess we'll see, won't we.
    My bet is not. Turbine is in the business of digging holes these days...

    And to address your final words, any developer that takes over 6 years to realize the "original vision" of the game is laughable.
    Well put!! I’m just happy i haven’t spent a cent more on this game. I used to spend about 60$ a week on things in store i even had 6 LOTRO accounts fully unlocked, because raiding made the game for me. Now i log on see a steed run past see my raiding kin has 5 players and i log off. I have moved servers now in hope to find a raiding kin but still no luck.

    It is sad to see something you love and spent so much time on being killed off by greed.

  12. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southpa View Post
    What balance issues does a mainly solo-dualer face? In what perspective?
    After playing 8 different classes over the last 3 years I can say that PVP has never really affected my PVE only lifestyle. From what I can tell, other than interrupts, Really no skills have been seriously nerfed or changed based on PVP. Are interrupts as important as they were going back to say level 65? Yeah let me hold back the laughter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Southpa View Post
    Fair enough. But if they completely withhold new content that is desired by a segment of their customer base, do they honestly think that segment is going to wait it out a year.... or more?
    Players of MMO's generally stick to one game. When the game they play disappoints they move onto a new one that offers the content they want. Even with the LOTR lore as strong as it is, going to another game and spending 60 to 95 levels with new characters, spending dollars on the game and receiving the content you want is going to keep those players playing those games. MMO's have a way of dying off rather than attracting back older players. Once a player becomes dissatisfied with the product to the point of abandoning it, it is much tougher to bring them back because of what they have seen in the newer developments. It gives them less reason to trust the direction the developers are heading in. Just saying that there is a chance older mechanics will be reintroduced at a later time is not enough to keep these players playing/paying.

    Quote Originally Posted by Southpa View Post
    What's the difference between raid gear and Hytbold-esque gear? They made 3 sets of that x 9.
    And I imagine there are templates for all that stuff that one FTE could knock-out in under a day... it's not rocket science, it's putting numbers in a table.
    Doing what they did will not increase the success of this game, but I doubt anything could at this point.
    How do you make a feature a huge success? Make it pretty much the only Reliableway to obtain BIS gear.

  13. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by senseye01 View Post
    That’s BS, turbine can break lore when it profits from it....
    We have seen countless questionable acts being implemented in this game a few instances will not hurt anyone.
    I have no problem with 3-4 really good 6 man instances, i might even start playing again, but to say turbine suddenly cares about game lore is the funniest thing i have ever herd.

    I’m sure the location of western rohan is just perfect for loot boxes and motorboat steeds so making up a few raids is not out of scope for them.
    Very similar to the excuse for saying the new epic quests are included in the xpac price instead of being free. If they are doing it because the epic story ties in with big battles than how can a level 10 player that will not be accessing these quests for 75 levels still be able to access these big battles? It sounds like double talk in an attempt to retain any remaining group players they may still have left. Basically the content you have enjoyed since launch may or may not be returning in the future (latest 20 questions). I'd personally like Turbine to stop using us as test monkeys.

  14. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khafar View Post
    I can't remember the specific example at the moment, but Turbine did make a few PvP-related changes that impacted PvE in the first year the game was out. Maybe whheydt remembers without having to go look through release notes in the Wayback Machine. Later, they were more careful not to do that (i.e. making Desperate Flight an OOC skill in the moors).

    You really shouldn't make claims that you can't back up. The change to DF didn't affect PvE in the slightest, there wasn't anything to be careful about, the change only affected players in the moors.
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  15. #140
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    The fact that Turbine is not designing content for raiders is clear. Will they in the future? In my opinion it won't much matter. As a raider I have watched everything I enjoy about the game go away and be replaced by solo Hytbold and warband grind. The raids that were provided with Erebor were simple, lackluster, and a huge disappointment. Before summer people had quit showing up for raid days because nobody wanted to go in and do the same 5 minute fight, or 10 minute fight, half a dozen times.

    Raiding may take up a single digit percentage of time, but that doesn't make it necessarily a single digit percentage of players. I used to play 30+ hours a week but only raid 3-4 hours. Many of us used to run instances and work our characters all week long for that 1-2 days of raiding. How do you determine the real percentage? And what other aspects of the game that raiders participated in will now start to wither away and become even more trivial?

    Either way, Turbine has made its choice. The raiders that were here a year ago mostly left and won't be back in any force. If Turbine designs actual raiding content in a year it won't matter because we won't be here to participate. The person that said once a player is dissatisfied it is much harder to get them back hit the nail on the head. At the moment I can't think of anything other than a complete reversal of their position that would get most raiders to come back. And we all know that won't happen.

    I miss my game. I just don't want to play one that caters to the lowest common denominator.
    Last edited by Beaniemooch; Oct 05 2013 at 10:29 AM.
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  16. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by Anisson View Post
    This whole post is just full of absolute rubbish and failure beyond words. This is whats wrong with the world, If you or anyone wants something go get it; If they fail; Do it again and don't just beat your head against a wall, try new ways of doing things. Games are supposed to pose some challenge some since of accomplishment when you do something difficult. If people never fail at anything in a game or in life they are not challenging themselves in any way and for that i pity them and those who associate with them and rely on them. When things get difficult or challenging they have no idea how to handle it and give up.



    Orladen

    Not everyone is like this. I failed to complete the watcher raid 60+ times before I completed it once(a 12 man group each time with a differentgroup of 12) was it my fault all 60 times? no but it was some times. at lvl85 i finally got thru it. does it sound like I gave up? finished ToO F/F after 60+ attemps took 60 more to complete the lightning wing Does it sound like I gave up? also at lvl 85 when completed. Finally my kin got together and did the whole thing in one sitting my only time ever to complete it we did it with 7-85lvl people(only had to do the saurman wing 12 times or so to finally do it. Does this sound like someone giving up? No but each time got harder for me as more and more raiders left my server. Do I ever want to do either of these raids again? No sir I do not. Having spent as much time, effort and emotions on them I never want to do them again. But I probably will because I don't want anyone to feel as badly as I do about these raids. some raids have been extremely hard for me to complete and I hate them for that fact, but I won't give up. And as far as t1,t2,t2cm I have done most on t1 completed only one on t2cm(erebor raids) but having heard what the loot was like I'm satisfied with not doing them at the hardest difficulty. Not so much given up as to be satisfied with what I've done.
    Mean what you say and say what you mean! If you don't there are always consequences!

  17. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beaniemooch View Post
    The person that said once a player is dissatisfied it is much harder to get them back hit the nail on the head. At the moment I can't think of anything other than a complete reversal of their position that would get most raiders to come back. And we all know that won't happen.

    I miss my game. I just don't want to play one that caters to the lowest common denominator.
    I was the person who said it 2 posts above. I found this to be true for the MMO's I played not to say it is a given. But If I take off for even 3 months to play another MMO, reach level cap and am enjoying the content then there is no reason for me to go back to a game that ceased offering that content it in the past. You will always remember the experience you had that made you leave.

    As to "caters to the lowest common denominator", I'm not sure this is the case. Certainly for group players the quality has gone down considerably in the recent xpac. I don't blame players for this. I blame the senior director and WB/turbine. If they really were listening to the folks you call "the lowest common denominator" would the class changes be focused on making the classes more group friendly? They said this recently in the newest 20 questions. I think what they are doing is focusing less on formal grouping which worries us tanks and healers. I also worry that these "Epic Battles" will be similar to a skirm, a feature I have pretty much ignored when other group content was present. I never found that to be enjoyable at a solo or group level. It just seems cheaper to make. Therefore lower risk.

  18. #143
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southpa View Post
    ... Not anything other than hapless wanderers content to eat whatever semblance of a bone is tossed in their general direction. That's who LotRO caters to.
    Are you sure you didn't mean "happy wanderers".
    TANSTAAFL

  19. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chunky_baby View Post
    But oh well. There are always other games.
    Not for some of us. I have no interest in amy other games. (Tried a few, deleted them almost immediately. They had nothing that captured my interest.)
    TANSTAAFL

  20. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gladgilrian View Post
    You really shouldn't make claims that you can't back up.
    Come on. I have a good memory, but this was 6 years ago. I remember the controversy, not the specific issue, and I'm not about to spend 3 hours digging through the Wayback Machine just to answer your question in a post. whheydt mentioned something about it in the last few years, so I'm hoping perhaps he has details. Like I said, Turbine learned, and made sure that the DF change was moors-only.

    Khafar

  21. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beaniemooch View Post
    Raiding may take up a single digit percentage of time, but that doesn't make it necessarily a single digit percentage of players.
    No, but that's not what Sapience said. He said that PvMP was in the "single digits" as a percentage of players, not time, and that raiders were in the same ballpark. That might mean raiders are 10% or 12% or something, but it's not going to mean they're 30% or 50%.

    Khafar

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    Quote Originally Posted by mjk47 View Post
    Are you sure you didn't mean "happy wanderers".
    Yup, pretty sure.
    Of course you may pride yourself on being easy to please, I don't know.

    It's rather evident that since there are "no other games for you", you will eat whatever is served.
    Personally, I would rather be in Middle Earth than any other virtual world. I would rather be spending my time surrounded by Tolkien's lore than any other lore.
    Even that's no longer enough to keep me running the Turbine hamster wheel.

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  23. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khafar View Post
    No, but that's not what Sapience said. He said that PvMP was in the "single digits" as a percentage of players, not time, and that raiders were in the same ballpark. That might mean raiders are 10% or 12% or something, but it's not going to mean they're 30% or 50%.

    Khafar
    And that quote is null and void.
    Lack of definition of the word Raider. I noticed you have added your own definition of 3+ raids month. Just because you only use the feature 1 or 2 times a month or even once every couple months, doesn't mean the feature is not being used.

    Simply reiterating the quote continuously gives it even less credit especially when the traditional instance cluster not only offers this content but some for those who like 3 or 6 man encounters. Removal of the overall feature not only hurts Raiders but those who use the other options available in the feature. Many times the quote has been used to dismiss all content involving any size group.

    You then eluded to the amount of raiders in the original release of WOW. Which you claim was 5% in 2006. Why this can not even be used as an argument:
    1. Raids were mostly 40 man (tougher to organize)
    2. Less players at level cap
    3. More grind to get appropriate gear to begin raiding.

    Where as today in WOW they have:
    1. Raid consisting as few as 10 players
    2. reaching level cap is so easy a caveman can do it
    3. Entry level raids can be completed with quest purples

    Do you think if the feature was made more casual more would use it like they have with WOW?

  24. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khafar View Post
    Come on. I have a good memory, but this was 6 years ago. I remember the controversy, not the specific issue, and I'm not about to spend 3 hours digging through the Wayback Machine just to answer your question in a post. whheydt mentioned something about it in the last few years, so I'm hoping perhaps he has details. Like I said, Turbine learned, and made sure that the DF change was moors-only.
    The item I usually cite is the addition (game-wide) of the targeting reticule to Heartseeker. It was done because creeps complained bitterly about being hit by it unawares, so they got a warning about what was coming. Totally unnecessary in PvE and provided a "warning" to others setting up on the same mob (before open tapping), and--thus--detrimental to PvE.

    Of course, since then between level cap increases and nerfing of the skill, HS is no longer what Turbine once described as the "OMFG attack".

  25. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by senseye01 View Post
    That’s BS, turbine can break lore when it profits from it....
    And they do...as in allowing non-Rohirrim into the Battle of the Hornburg.

    We have seen countless questionable acts being implemented in this game a few instances will not hurt anyone.
    The team that builds group instances has spent the last year working on the Epic Battles. There isn't anyone available to have developed those instances you want.

 

 
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