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  1. #1

    Turbine Helms Deep Instance cluster and raids?

    Turbine,

    If its listed somewhere I do apologize, I just got home From my Cancer treatment.

    I want to know what is the planned instance cluster as well as raids for the expansion?
    I do realize that for the instance cluster and raids , they may come at later dates like the last 2 expansions?


    thanks.

  2. #2
    anyone know?

  3. #3
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    Turbine has stated clearly: there is NO instance cluster. No traditional instances, raids, or skirmishes will be released with Helm's Deep.

    Instead -- we will get Big Battles, their new "instanced" content. It is NOT known fully what that looks like.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/062050000000aa753/01004/signature.png]Roselindea[/charsig]

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by twittfounder View Post
    Turbine has stated clearly: there is NO instance cluster. No traditional instances, raids, or skirmishes will be released with Helm's Deep.

    Instead -- we will get Big Battles, their new "instanced" content. It is NOT known fully what that looks like.
    Can we please get a little more info on how this all is going to work?

    I mean none of us have any idea.
    By moving the level cap up 10 levels since there aren't new raids and new instance cluster will the old end game raids and instance clusters now scale up 10 levels as well as have new loot drops 10 levels higher etc?

    Or are they old end game instance clusters and raids going to be made useless due to the new helms deep expansion with level cap going up 10 levels, the old instances and raids will be easy mode for raids and instance runs cause groups will be to do them 10 levels higher then what they were designed for?

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by NekuDoku View Post
    Can we please get a little more info on how this all is going to work?

    I mean none of us have any idea.
    By moving the level cap up 10 levels since there aren't new raids and new instance cluster will the old end game raids and instance clusters now scale up 10 levels as well as have new loot drops 10 levels higher etc?

    Or are they old end game instance clusters and raids going to be made useless due to the new helms deep expansion with level cap going up 10 levels, the old instances and raids will be easy mode for raids and instance runs cause groups will be to do them 10 levels higher then what they were designed for?


    I agree I want to know this as well before I buy the Expansion 59.99 version with added legendary pack.

    Turbine can you let us know your plans on how you are going to handle this as well as more details of the new end game in the expansion as well as old game what is going to happen to it?

  6. #6
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    It's called BIG BATTLES! It'll be the Battle for Helm's Deep. That's it. Raids? Instances? Skirmishes? Nope. Big Battles.

    And I agree with what one poster said in another thread. Big Battles. Seriously? That's what the braintrust came up with to call these? Big Battles? What's next for Gondor? REALLY BIG BATTLES?

    /facepalm
    Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar, tenn’ Ambar-metta!

  7. #7
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    No Raids huh? Seriously???

    Well been playing the game since closed beta, and every expansion was great up to and including Rise of Isengard. I have been enjoying the challenge of this game with multiple people; I mean the game is classified as a MMO right? For me raiding was just the best, the harder it was the better. I loved it when my kinship would routinely meet on Tuesday and Thursday and spend hours perfecting our strategy to accomplish the Tier 2 Challenge. To witness the screen roll the obtained challenge credit was just a huge payoff for all the work the kin put in the raid, and my kin did accomplish all the raids. This challenge of the game was what made the game. Since LOTRO open the doors, this game was not exactly geared for casual play. If I wanted to play Chutes and Ladders I obviously would never of logged in.

    When RoI was released the questing was enjoyable, really did not think much of the new combat horse system, but hey. no big deal. I heard my kinmates discussing the new raids and they were not exactly thrilled, not like Orthanc. When Orthanc was the 'End Game' content there was a buzz, there was excitement just like all prior raids; none of which existed with the new raids in RoR. So I log in on a Saturday afternoon within a month of the release of RoR and I just got my LM to 85 that week and I noticed that a kinmate was running a pug for T1 BFE. In the teamspeak my buddy asked if I wanted in and I accepted. First thing I noticed was there was only 1 minstrel and no other healer, not even a captain. I immediately asked my kin mate, "HEY buddy!! we only have 1 minstrel?!?" His reply was comical, "Do not worry man, this new raid is a joke" I remember that moment like it just happened. I was thinking this is wrong, this all wrong! So as I am looking thru the raid, I notice that there is another LM in the raid, I check this LM over and I notice this character is not wearing any pants or shoes. This LM was missing 3 pieces of jewelry, the morale was like 4k and anything that this LM was wearing was questing reward gear for level 50? I think this character had 1, just 1 purple item equipped. So my kin mate was explaining the fight, took all about 5 seconds, then my kin mate sends me a tell," watch this lm, he does nothing but spin in circles during the raid and eventually dies because he does not move to avoid the catapults. So I need you just to keep stun immunity on the tanks, debuff and dps". Now I am thinking, c'mon this is the new raid, this NEVER would fly in any older raid. So I kept a glance on this LM during the raid, this LM never applied anything of the skills to benefit the raid. There are only 2 targets and this LM was attacking the wrong target, surprise right? So needless to say the raid was completed and people were starting the voodoo magic dance for the loot from the chest. As I suspected I just got a rune and a relic, but, that LM, that LM that plays the game a whole total of 2 hours every year receives the coveted LM gold cloak?!?!? This I will remember for the rest of my life, I totally told myself,' hey, do not fret, do not get upset, I am sure that if this LM can get that cloak, then... then with the kinship I am in, I am guaranteed to get that thing!!'

    During RoI, my kinmates and I ran Foundry like 60 thousand times only to be 2nd to the Roots of Fangorn runs. I was totally confident that I would receive loot like I always have. I mean I probably have ran the Mirkwood SG 6 man a million times, just on my tank alone ok? I will not even mention the insanity of running the Moria 6 mans, but I loved every single second of the game with all those runs, that to me was LOTRO and I was in heaven. Well a few hundred runs in Fornost, several hundred runs in the 3 mans and the other content including raid t2 challenge and to no avail, not one, not one gold item to drop for me. So this randomization loot is beyond disgusting, it is a deterrent for me to play. I was much happier when I knew I could run an instance enough times and obtain an item that I truly wanted, and RoR totally destroyed that. Yet, I still played. I mean BFE T2 Challenge was a decent challenge. I am not even going to mention the other 2 raids ok, better off that way. None the less, for 5 years I knew that if there was a rare loot item that I wanted then it was not impossible to acquire. Unlike RoR, not only can it be impossible but a SLACKER that barely plays can acquire loot that I desperately desire. If I would of known that from the start, I would not of paid for RoR, simply saying (and I paid for the $70 version months before the release).

    You know, you build friendships with people running things of this nature repetitively, let alone most can learn to improve their play by these 6 mans. I mean I saw many horrific players improve tremendously by joining the Mirkwood SG 6 man back in those days. The Moria 6 mans had the same quality, you want the best loot, then earn it! These 6 mans were a perfect chance for people to give just a little effort to learn to play the game and then go raid. The game seems to be losing its way with the challenge, the spirit of what the game was birthed with. I remember the Helegrod raid and all the buzz around it, and then before anyone knew it the Rift was released. Oh boy, those times were just simply awesome!! I know that when the RIft was released I could not find a person who DID NOT want to raid! EVERYONE wanted to raid, everyone wanted to take part in the end game content, and more importantly everyone did. This was even more evident when Moria was released, Moria was the best release that this game ever had, and Mirkwood was great, little small but great all the same. OD was awesome only knock was no 6 man, and Orthanc was more than satisfying, it was awesome. There was a challenge at every expansion. (not talking about the additional goal in the instances, talking about the term challenge and everything it stands for, something that is not easy, something one works at... a challenge)

    Then we have RoR, ya know I slept thru my first attempt in the Bells of the Dale T2 6 man, after my kinmates and I got the instance done (first try) I cussed out my kinmate for setting it up on T1. I was shocked to discover that we got the T2 challenge and I truly thought it was set on Tier 1. Now I am supposed to look forward to EPIC battles where a LEVEL 10 CHARACTER CAN JOIN IN FOR THE END GAME CONTENT???? Really? I mean seriously?? Where is the challenge? you know what, there will not be a challenge when a lvl 10 character can join lvl 95 character in the 'end game' content. There I said it! This is not the LOTRO I know, this is a nightmare and it is all wrong and I want someone to wake me already. A game by definition dictates challenge, some are easy some are hard; there is zero challenge when you have a person spend years working on a character only to see some guy spend 20 minutes on a brand new character and then participate in the current 'end game' content. This is becoming like a retreat for misguided souls that find life too hard and here EVERYBODY WINS!! This is bad, this will not be the LOTRO we have spent the past 6 years with.

    Here is an example of what I am saying, look at the movie The Matrix, when Hugo Weaving has Larry Fishbourne captive and is interrogating him. Hugo starts to explain the history of the Matrix to Larry, telling him the first Matrix was a utopia and it utterly failed. A place where everyone had what they wanted and yet it did not work. I can not think of a better example of what is in store for this game. Last I knew this was not a game for people to just dress up and run thru Simple Sally's Doll House! This game was built on raids and 6 mans and CHALLENGES. If you wanted the best stuff then you had to put an effort to get it. The effort was the most thrilling aspect for me, that is the reason why I played. That is the reason why I did everything I could to improve my play. There was a rewarding end to it all, and now a lvl 10 character can join me in this new 'End Game' content?!?!?!?! You know, I was at a party last Saturday night and I was too embarrassed to tell people that I play LOTRO.

    Anyone remember when DDO failed? How many articles of gaming media slammed it? Funny, LOTRO was round the corner when that happened and then DDO was the first to go 'Free to Play' in 2008. Is there not some Harry Potter online game coming out? Round the corner? Why even have a barter system in LOTRO? Just give all the good stuff as a reward for logging in and then pack the store with 'smiley faces' and 'frowney faces' to appear above the avatars so the people can pay to show everyone else how they feel. Why not just stop this super skirm system and replace it with 'Pie Hunting for Fat Hobbits' and then we can chase after fat, stubby hobbits feeding them more pies. Feed 2 fat hungry hobbits and YOU GET A FIRST AGE!!! Feed 3 fat hungry hobbits and you get WHATEVER YOU WANT!!!! Just change the name of the game to Fat Hungry Hobbits! awe it is so cute, and everybody wins... yay (say it really slow the second time) y..a..y!

    I am not paying any money for some 'super skirm end game content', skirms were such a pain in the rear as it was and that is the only thing to look forward too?? ya know, I play on a bunch of servers here and I can honestly say that there is hundreds of people that have quit this game or are planning to quit. Does not take a genius to see the lack of people logging in as of late, and I know there will be more to leave. Hundreds of people are leaving. The heart of this game has been consistent between 2007 thru 2012, and it is officially gone. So go ahead and slam this post 6 ways from Sunday, come January of next year, let us see how many people are still playing. I, for one, will not and funny thing is I have a lifetime membership and once the expansion is released I honestly will cancel it. Got to be really bad for people to cancel a lifetime membership, I do it as a note of protest. This was an awesome game, now it feels like I am at some summer camp for fat kids where everybody gets a cookie Any suggestions for a new game to play the way LOTRO used to be?

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malcrest View Post
    Well been playing the game since closed beta, and every expansion was great up to and including Rise of Isengard. I have been enjoying the challenge of this game with multiple people; I mean the game is classified as a MMO right? For me raiding was just the best...
    As others have said, there have been several of these threads created over the past several months leading up to Helms Deep. So, nothing personal but, new thread - old topic.

    What all of these threads fail to realize, let alone accept, is the fact that the overall player base of MMOs has moved away from the "hardcore" raiding that used to be a staple of a good MMO. Yes, there was a time when gathering X-number of your friends together to take on a massive fortress, defeat Bowser, and rescue the princess was very popular.

    However, when every single MMO is basically copying each other with regard to the same mechanics - just dressed differently - the popular things can get old pretty fast. And, it is my opinion that Turbine has caught onto the fact that the old school style of raids are great, but they can't be all that is offered or your player base gets bored with them.
    So, the classic fortresses like Carn Dum, Urugarth, and Orthanc are excellent for endgame material. But, there has to be more options on the menu. And, if you look at it, Moria was a great example of how mixing up the endgame options tends to hold people's interest longer.

    Now, with Helms Deep, Turbine has the opportunity to introduce something new to the mix of "endgame" material. I might be one of the few, but I do enjoy partaking in large Skirmish Raids. And, I may be one of even fewer who wished they would expand upon what skirmishes enabled you to do. So, IMHO, the new "raiding system" introduced into Helms Deep seems like it will be the next step...

    But, let us not forget that the Helms Deep expansion won't just be about what is available to do @ 95. Class changes, upscaling, and a variety of other things will impact everyone from 1-95. And, I don't think it would be wise to introduce a lot of new "raiding" content until all of these other changes have settled in to the point where you can focus on the group content.
    Dagranhad - Burglar | Aldgarea - Loremaster | Barathrothir - Hunter | Golladhar - Captain

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheCrossbow View Post
    As others have said, there have been several of these threads created over the past several months leading up to Helms Deep. So, nothing personal but, new thread - old topic.
    But it is unique considering it is talking about the entire instance cluster and not just raids. There are a few individuals who as always equated all the content in a cluster to be for hardcore raiders.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheCrossbow View Post
    What all of these threads fail to realize, let alone accept, is the fact that the overall player base of MMOs has moved away from the "hardcore" raiding that used to be a staple of a good MMO. Yes, there was a time when gathering X-number of your friends together to take on a massive fortress, defeat Bowser, and rescue the princess was very popular.
    Once again the entire cluster including 3 and 6 mans caters to a wider audience than just raiders.
    Describing something as "the big cousin of skirms" does not sound very enticing to players of all types. I understand what you say in the rest of the post. The games do copy one another. But I have to admit if they want big battles to work there needs to be a difficulty setting if this is the only planned content. What happens after players beat the content on 12 man and get their teal gear? What can that gear be used for? To just make the content easier? Progression is not that difficult to manufacture either. Add a tier 2 and call it a day. It's what they have done for many years.

    In a game like WOW where there are multiple multi boss raids (3 or more) Lotro has done ok with just one and the scaling of the difficulty. Same thing with their 5 man content it has a heroic mode ours has a tier 2.

    I can't really say anything else about big battle other than what I have heard in interviews and in the 20 questions but you gotta be careful when you use the skirmish as it does not have the same impression as the word instance.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minquinn View Post
    But it is unique considering it is talking about the entire instance cluster and not just raids. There are a few individuals who as always equated all the content in a cluster to be for hardcore raiders.



    Once again the entire cluster including 3 and 6 mans caters to a wider audience than just raiders.
    Describing something as "the big cousin of skirms" does not sound very enticing to players of all types. I understand what you say in the rest of the post. The games do copy one another. But I have to admit if they want big battles to work there needs to be a difficulty setting if this is the only planned content. What happens after players beat the content on 12 man and get their teal gear? What can that gear be used for? To just make the content easier? Progression is not that difficult to manufacture either. Add a tier 2 and call it a day. It's what they have done for many years.

    In a game like WOW where there are multiple multi boss raids (3 or more) Lotro has done ok with just one and the scaling of the difficulty. Same thing with their 5 man content it has a heroic mode ours has a tier 2.

    I can't really say anything else about big battle other than what I have heard in interviews and in the 20 questions but you gotta be careful when you use the skirmish as it does not have the same impression as the word instance.
    Well there is theoretically difficulty settings: bronze, silver, gold and platinum medals. Now if that'll be actually difficult we can't tell yet i figure.
    Probably about time turbine offers more info on the epic battles one way or the other.
    Nothing here matters.

  11. #11
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    I'm also one of the many that would like to see some info on these Big Battles and maybe even some info about a new cluster and raid being in development, before I decide whether to purchase the expansion or not. I enjoy leveling characters and should have 9 85's ready for HD, but without something substantial to do at cap then I just can't be bothered.

    To briefly touch on raiders leaving en masse, each person will probably have a different story to tell because I'm sure on some servers they have left, on others they haven't. I know from my personal experience that my kin is practically dead at this point. We were a top raiding kin back in the day of Rift and Hele, stayed that way with moria with DN, then started to taper off once BG came out. There wasn't enough content coming out to keep people interested and we went from having 2-3 raid groups down to barely being able to get enough for 1. At this point the majority of the people I've been raiding with for the past 4-5 years are gone and the kin is a ghost town. Personally I used to be one of those people there raiding 3 nights a week on a handful of toons and it was enjoyable content and everybody had fun. Now I, along with a large number of our raid, have either quit or only log in sporadically.

    It's just disappointing because so many of us are huge fans of some of the raids that have been designed in the game (Rift will forever be my favourite group instance) and over the past few years it has been in steady decline. Maybe it's a cause of the player base not being there to meet the financial costs of that sort of development, maybe some of the developers have moved on to other Turbine projects or maybe it's simply a shift in focus to the simpler more mainstream things in the game. Regardless I along with many others had some great times raiding in lotro and hopefully someday we get something similar to it again.

    So yes to more info on Big Battles and raids in general hehe

  12. #12
    So since there is no raid coming and you can experience Big Battles from any level, there's no real incentive to get to 95.
    There's no real incentive to push to improve your character.
    All it will mean is you might get some extra spiffy tokens.



    Bring back raids. Bring back a real reason to level and gear up. Not casual activities that are basically rehashed skirmishes with more objectives.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/022040000000b1e1a/signature.png]Kangas[/charsig]
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  13. #13
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    Thorwyn99 go play Fat Hungry Hobbits

  14. #14
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    Is that a drinking game ?
    Nothing here matters.

  15. #15
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    no, it is right up your ally. Go put on a dress and RP at the Prancing Pony. And they said there would be sarcastic people in WoW. What is your purpose in life dude? HEY lests slam people that might have a point on the internet before we even know what they are saying!!! yeah! Dude just go play your RP and stay off the forums.

  16. #16
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    You're using the word RP as if it's something bad, sorry though if there is no drinking involved i ain't interested.
    Nothing here matters.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Malcrest View Post
    HEY lests slam people that might have a point on the internet before we even know what they are saying!!! yeah! Dude just go play your RP and stay off the forums.
    No, he knew what you were saying. As do I. It's just that there's no point. This has been discussed and discussed and discussed and its simply not going to change. It is what it is, and this is about the 500th thread on this same topic. Turbine is trying something different and attempting to get away from the tiered multiboss raid with a gear ladder system that nearly every MMO does. Whether its good or bad remains to be seen. I'm not saying it's a good or bad thing, but it is happening.

    Oh, and guess what? These forums are open to EVERYONE, not just incredibly rude people that insult others because they have different playstyles. That's why you are allowed to post here despite being an incredibly rude person that insults others because they have different playstyles. See how that works? If you don't like people with different opinions than you posting, then DON'T POST and YOU stay out of the forums.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/06203000000062b16/signature.png]Eldrenath[/charsig]

  18. #18
    this has been discussed several times before. I enjoy the game. I am a solo hardcore player who occasionally joins in a group. I play a warden well. I know how to tank. in the BFE raid you're talking about we have wiped a T1 several times. that raid is not exactly easy even though it's only two enemies there is a lot more going on.

    I am actually getting tired of everyone complaining about the content. I loved RoI and RoR. I don't see what's so bad.

    This "super skirmish" isn't just any skirmish, it's freakin HELM'S DEEP. the mother of all fortresses. this super skirmish is also not going to work like other instances. there is going to be a lot more to do than fight.

    need I also remind you that we already know the outcome of the battle. we know that we are going to win. in the books/movies the heroes never die (save boromir). The game has made you a hero so you should never die. making content too difficult would not guarantee that you will live, so to ensure your "survival" the content has been made easy. I got to tell ya I hate dying I quit the game once when i died because I would have to fight through everything I just did again.

    also in the books/movies when the hero makes a swing or fires an arrow at an orc or a goblin, one attack, one kill. I think the game should be easy, it makes us feel more like heroes. it's the common folk who have it difficult, they can't fight orcs and goblins like we can.

    and also the epic battles system is what I think several raids in one. I think it's going to work a lot like the battle against isengard [spoiler] the battle where the prince dies[/spoiler]

    so just sit back and enjoy the game. so what if it's easy? if you don't like it follow suit and quit just like everybody else. Go play WOW.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Redit View Post
    need I also remind you that we already know the outcome of the battle. we know that we are going to win. in the books/movies the heroes never die (save boromir). The game has made you a hero so you should never die. making content too difficult would not guarantee that you will live, so to ensure your "survival" the content has been made easy. I got to tell ya I hate dying I quit the game once when i died because I would have to fight through everything I just did again.

    also in the books/movies when the hero makes a swing or fires an arrow at an orc or a goblin, one attack, one kill. I think the game should be easy, it makes us feel more like heroes. it's the common folk who have it difficult, they can't fight orcs and goblins like we can.

    and also the epic battles system is what I think several raids in one. I think it's going to work a lot like the battle against isengard [spoiler] the battle where the prince dies[/spoiler]

    so just sit back and enjoy the game. so what if it's easy? if you don't like it follow suit and quit just like everybody else. Go play WOW.

    This whole post is just full of absolute rubbish and failure beyond words. This is whats wrong with the world, If you or anyone wants something go get it; If they fail; Do it again and don't just beat your head against a wall, try new ways of doing things. Games are supposed to pose some challenge some since of accomplishment when you do something difficult. If people never fail at anything in a game or in life they are not challenging themselves in any way and for that i pity them and those who associate with them and rely on them. When things get difficult or challenging they have no idea how to handle it and give up.



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  20. #20
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    Redit, clearly there is a perception of why we play here. I have nothing against folks that want it easy in the game, there is plenty of content for you. THE BIG DIFFERENCE here is that what you play the game for is not changing, however, why I play the game is changing. Plus, why I even started this game 6 years ago is because of raids, the game has had a stable run on a specific format, and now *poof* it is gone. I truly feel people in my mind set have a reason to be upset, to feel slighted.
    If I wanted to play WoW then I would of never of started LOTRO. I think it is ridiculous that people like myself get slammed for talking about this, the game was birthed with raids. We have had raids for 6 years, I think us raiders have a right to be upset and be vocal about it.
    One last thing, to tell me that BFE T1 was hard, dude that is contradiction to tell me that you thought that was hard and you play your warden well. Dude I know of 5 wardens that can do BFE T2 Challenge, and if you think T1 was hard, have you ever even seen T2C? If this is so absurd to mention, then why did WB/Turbine even have a difficulty factor that exists? BFE T2C was hard, the point was that to gather people in a MMO (Massive Multiplayer Online) and work a goal that takes a month or 2 is a rewarding experience. I feel that solo players are ROBBING themselves to try this. It is not easy to get many people on board to work hard and dedicate themselves to the group to ultimately obtain the goal of the group. This is why I played the game, and I am a fan of LOTR.
    Truthfully, this is not a hard concept to comprehend and it just kills me to see people to ignore the obvious.
    I do not need obvious comments to help me understand, and yet again if you read the post then you would recognize that now I am just reiterating. Again, I have been playing since the beginning. To antiquate this for you, it would be no different if they dropped T1 content and only had T2C and the difficulty for questing would be on par for T2C. This game used to be a great challenge, not only is that going away, now I am being bombarded by people that want to tell me I am in the wrong for breaching the loss of what was, and for what... so people do not have to apply themselves to obtain goals. It is all wrong, every little bit of it is all wrong.

  21. #21
    OP. LOTRO is following the pack here in moving away from classic raid format, pretty much all MMOs are getting easier and easier and catering more and more to the solo players and the players who do not have the interest and time to devote to long blocks of time to raiding. The changing demographics are driving this, the folks who play are getting older, life changes push people to shorter blocks of play time. I run into fewer and fewer young people in the MMOs I play. The companies running the MMOs have to adapt or turn off the servers.

    WoW introduced the Looking for Raid format where the big raids are broken up into sections with the goal of appealing to the large number of players who do not have the large time blocks to devote to a full run. The goal was that each section take an hour or less. The mechanics are simpler so that no voice communication is needed. The full version is still available for raid guilds with better loot.

    Raids in Star Wars are easy on regular setting.

    I know I personally no longer have the time nor the interest to do classic format raids after years of raiding in wow. I have not raiding in LOTRO since MoM time period. I personally like the looking for raid format in WoW because I no longer have blocks of 4 plus hours to do the regular version. And I still like LOTRO because I can solo and have fun in a world whose lore I find interesting. I have more concerns about the upcoming class changes and how they will impact the ability of some of my alts to solo effectively and whether by simplifying the classes they will make the class abilities so streamlined and limited that they are boring to solo on due having a simple rotation and nothing else. I rapidly lost interest in guild wars for that reason.

    You want hard, unforgiving and brutal, try Eve Online. But then that is pvp, not raiding.

 

 

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