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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by sakisman View Post
    If i understand correctly you guys are talking about them adding a trait tree system. I personally think that the current system it nice. Trait tree system is too mainstream (at the risk of sounding like a hipster). The current system is different and therefor better. I don't like having to work up a tree for better traits like on the mounted combat system. It's just too much like every other game ever.
    Why does different always mean better? Is a molding apple better than all the other good apples in a supermarket because it's different? No, I don't think so. It's just illogical...

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vexendynamus View Post
    Yes, it is. The developers are forcing each and every class into specific roles and taking away jack-of-all-trade flexibility. "Homogenization" is a dirty word. Every class will lose approximately half of all skills, devastating battlefield management classes like Captain and Lore-Master. Have you read any of the developer comments over the last three months?



    The trait tree system rewards cookie cutter builds, not flexible builds. That is the point. Did I mention "Homogenization" is a dirty word?
    Why do you think, each class has only half of their skills? 20 skills is referring to the number you can use with one build, so at the same time. But adding all skills together there wouldn't be less or much less skills than now...

    It IS flexible, or it has th potential to be flexible. But you can't say it will be inflexible because you don't know it until now...

    The current version IS very inflexible. Atm every class has something like the "ONE BEST ABSOLUTELY POWERFUL BUILD AND ALL OTHERS ARE USELESS-BUILD". It is inflexible and it will either become flexible or STAY inflexible...

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valkrist View Post
    I have to strongly disagree with you on this point, respectfully. The system is not the problem, nor is the nature of the system why there are useless choices and combinations of choices. The issue is that the work needed to balance things, and keep that balance, has not been put into them. That will be true of the coming system as well. Or any system, really.



    Again, this is not the fault of the system inherently, but merely that the Overlords have not put any effort toward creating new abilities and skills and such after Moria. It is the same with there being unviable choices within the system right now. It is merely the lack of effort put into making all the choices viable. There will most certainly be choices seen to be unviable with the system to come as well.

    That effort, or lack thereof, is an issue because...



    This is the most troubling aspect of all, I fear. What is basically happening is that a great deal of those precious developer resources are being used to toss away more of those precious developer resources: namely, a great deal of the effort that has gone into the class sytem to this point. They are simply tossing away a huge number of skills and much of what had come before.

    Was this the wisest use of those resources? It can be debated, but I have to say no, to my mind. They have taken a system that was unique and free-ranging, giving the player great freedom to pick and choose abilities they wanted, and are spending an enormous amount of time and energy...



    (from SWTOR)



    (from Rift)



    (from World of Warcraft)

    ...a lot of time and effort... to become ordinary. That time could have been spent on creating instances, instead.



    Again, I have to disagree. There has been a continuing trend for years now in that content has become easier and easier over time. No defensive measures or traits are needed anymore for Landscape adventuring, nor any 3 or 6 person Instances (even the Challenges), nor T1 raids, either. Unless you want to play with those for fun, everyone will have two trait set-ups: A solo line to slay things as quickly as possible, and a grouping line, with traits chosen to first help the group slay things as quickly as possible, and to help yourself do the same with what is left. That is my opinion, at least



    No! You Strength and Honor guys cannot go! No one else will have me along for adventures anymore!
    It wasn't giving the "GREAT FREEDOM" like you told it. Again, when you want to raid you have this, this, this, this, that, this and that attribute and these 3 legendary ones and no ther one... Is that the freedom of choice? NO!

    And you're comparing the following LOTRO-tree-trait-system with those from other MMOs... from different developers... with different ideas... with different game play... Yeah, a really good comparison if there's nothing similar than the name...

  4. Quote Originally Posted by Orodbril View Post
    Finally a person who shares my mind referring the class revamp...

    Even if there is the "ONE BEST BUILD" it wouldn't have gone worse than now, because it is the situation like IT IS NOW.

    The revamp has the potential and possibilities to turn out good. And this is anything we know now. Everything else is speculation and pessimism isn't the right thing to think about it, at least the people should look at its POSSIBLE positive and negative sides, and not only at the negative ones...
    I understand what you are saying about trying to be positive about our outlook and all. I think what people are trying to say, though, is that an entire revamp and new system was not needed to bring about the balance you are suggesting the new system might bring. If there is One Best Build now, that is due to the Overlords not balancing the other traits in the current system, so that they are equally desirable, right? Could this not also happen with the new system?

    Of course it can, and the remedy to it is exactly the same thing that would 'fix' the current system as well: Balancing those traits to make them all worthwhile.

    There really have not been a lot of specifics given, ones that we can be positive about, anyway. Some of the new abilities mentioned in the Scout diary sound interesting, so we can be positive about that

    Quote Originally Posted by Orodbril View Post
    Why do you think, each class has only half of their skills? 20 skills is referring to the number you can use with one build, so at the same time. But adding all skills together there wouldn't be less or much less skills than now...

    It IS flexible, or it has th potential to be flexible. But you can't say it will be inflexible because you don't know it until now...
    Well, we Scouts have 40 combat skills or so. We know that the intent of the Overlords is to bring that number down to 20 or so, more or less, that we can use at any given time. Now, when you say that there are more than 20 there, just not able to all be used at once, that is very true. But, surely, you must agree that cutting in half the number of skills we have at the ready takes away some of our ability to make choices, right?

    Even if they speed up the animations so that you are very busy with your twenty choices, there is something that will be lost by not having all the skills we once had available to us at any given time, wouldn't you say? For those of us who value choice, and I never realized how much I did in these sorts of things until I learned it was going to be taken away, that is a big deal. A really big deal.

    Regarding the arguments like 'wait and see' and 'you do not know until you know', I think that is very true about specific things within the system. But, not only can we make logical deductions regarding what is to come, with respect to certain things at least, the earlier we make those points, the more chance that they will be heard, and considered, and maybe even responded to. You do not wait until the house is on fire to go to buy a fire extinguisher, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Orodbril View Post
    The current version IS very inflexible. Atm every class has something like the "ONE BEST ABSOLUTELY POWERFUL BUILD AND ALL OTHERS ARE USELESS-BUILD". It is inflexible and it will either become flexible or STAY inflexible...
    Again, I do not think it is the system itself that is inflexible, and I will explain that further below. It is the fact that there are traits that are more powerful than the others that creates the "ONE BEST ABSOLUTELY POWERFUL BUILD AND ALL OTHERS ARE USELESS-BUILD". Do you see what I mean by that?

    If, within the new skill trees, there are things we gain that are more powerful than other things in that tree where we could spend the same points, the very same 'inflexibility' you are speaking to will be there. Even though the system will have changed, the same best builds will be there. It has nothing to do with the current system inherently at all. I think what some of us are trying to say is that there really was not a need to spend vital and valuable development time reworking something that did not need to be. The time spent doing all that could have instead been spent on balancing the existing traits, with some left over for Instances, or Housing, or any number of the other things we all would like to see

    Quote Originally Posted by Orodbril View Post
    It wasn't giving the "GREAT FREEDOM" like you told it. Again, when you want to raid you have this, this, this, this, that, this and that attribute and these 3 legendary ones and no ther one... Is that the freedom of choice? NO!
    Again, this is not the system's fault, but the imbalance of the traits. The very same thing can happen with the new system. Time will tell.

    Quote Originally Posted by Orodbril View Post
    And you're comparing the following LOTRO-tree-trait-system with those from other MMOs... from different developers... with different ideas... with different game play... Yeah, a really good comparison if there's nothing similar than the name...
    Actually, there is something not only similar but exactly the same in all of those systems, as well as in the new system that is coming here: The necessity to spend a certain number of points within a 'level' or 'threshold' within the skill tree in order to allow one to have access to skills/traits/benefits further down the tree. That is an unequivocal fact, unless the Overlords here decide to make it differently from what they have said.

    Because of this, it is almost a certainty that we will be spending points in certain aspects we may not necessarily want to, in order to get further down the tree to things we do, right? Due to this, our freedom of choice is inhibited, to a degree. To some that may be more of an issue than most, but it is the case.

    Our current system allows us to choose freely from all of our traits to use. The only issue is having 5 traits of a certain tree slotted for the Capstone, but that will be true to a much greater degree in the new system. 2 completely free traits out of 7 is...29%. I doubt that we will still have 29% of our skill points left over in the new system, once we get down to the Legendary trait in the tree we choose to focus on. And, even if we do, those points are still restricted by the skill trees, and we can only get additional traits at the tops of those trees going down. As it is now, if I choose to put 5 Quiet Knife traits in to get the Legendary trait, I can choose the remaining 2 traits I use, out of the 19 I have not used yet, with absolutely no restriction whatsoever.

    Can you see how this is a bit more free than the new system will be?
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  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by bastiat1 View Post
    Raiding kins? Is there a single kinship that beat Orthanc that is still active? I consider Orthanc the last true raid. I understand that some may quibble with that.
    Order of the Silver Flame/CloD alliance did and are still running static raid groups, but it is getting harder, I'll admit.

  6. #31
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    Razor Sharp, Silverlode's Original Challenger of Saruman titleholders, are still raiding too. Core group remains intact, with frequent assistance from wonderful friends
    [FONT=Verdana][CENTER][COLOR=#666666]Silverlode lvl100 raiding characters: [/COLOR][COLOR=#FF0000]Glaistig [COLOR=#FFFF00]Skop[/COLOR][/COLOR] [COLOR=#666666] | lvl100 solo and small group characters: Bede, Elentir, & Wibba[/COLOR][/CENTER]
    [/FONT]
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  7. #32
    One point about the new traits system is that if you can switch between saved builds quickly that is already a nice feature over the current system for any class that needs to change their role in raids often. (RK healing or dps, etc.)

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by scrumtrelescent View Post
    The current system is bizarre. You get class abilities every few levels until about 50. Then around 60 or so it falls of a cliff and you go level after level after level without getting anything, it's kinda weird. Combine that with specs no one uses. How many hunters do you know that routinely use the yellow (traps) line? We have a BUNCH of hunters in my kin, and none of them use it.
    I've been playing a yellow-line hunter, a sword-and-board heal/tank captain, a DPS guardian, and a CC burglar for three years so be careful with the generalizations. I've played pretty much all the FOTM builds for most of the classes. Some (LM, RK, & Warden) are OK, but the FOTM builds for most classes are as dull as a box of rocks. I haven't bothered with a red-line hunter since SOA. The ability to do something other than just choose one-of-three builds is the core strength of the current system.

    That said, I agree that the game has "out-leveled" the current trait system and that some change is/was needed. However, I really do not like the the class redesigns as they have been described by the devs thus far. The new system, as described, has a distinct Radience-like aroma of fail.

    It's not that the tree-trait system itself that's a bad idea as much as the Devs seem to be intent on forcing everyone into one of three narrowly defined boxes. Want to DPS? Great. now you can't tank, heal, or CC at all. Want to CC? Fine, now you do 1/10th the DPS as before, can't heal, and have no mitigation. Happy? Even this wouldn't be so bad in a raid where everyone tends to fill one of the trinity roles anyway. But on-landscape or in a small group, hybrid builds should be encouraged not penalized. Oh yeah. There are no raids in Helm's Deep. Why are we forcing people into raiding roles again?
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  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by scrumtrelescent View Post
    Oh I'm quite sure there will be. There will always be players that break out the calculators and calculate carefully exactly which build does slightly more. Certainly there will be people saying Build X is better than Build Y, etc. But at least the number of options will be going up dramatically with the new system.

    The current system is bizarre. You get class abilities every few levels until about 50. Then around 60 or so it falls of a cliff and you go level after level after level without getting anything, it's kinda weird. Combine that with specs no one uses. How many hunters do you know that routinely use the yellow (traps) line? We have a BUNCH of hunters in my kin, and none of them use it.

    Certainly there will be people that will min/max, but the number of viable builds and sheer number of possible combinations possible will be going up dramatically. Now, I have not seen this new system in practice. So I'm not saying the system IS good--but I am saying that it COULD be good, and there are too many people that know very little about it saying how awful it is, etc. Furthermore, it is in beta and still subject to change.
    I've been playing many different mmo's to know that what you say, it's not really factual. Sure you can have a million builds, but people will have, more or less, 1 build for raiding, because that 1 build will get you the most out of the speccs. There might be small tweaks, but it won't be very different. Just like trait line atm, although atm you have 2 viable trait line for dps ( as hunter anyway ), with the changes you'll have 1 -> bowmaster. Look at rift, as a mage you have 6-7 trees? and you can pick any 3 trees for your specc, and put points wherever and do whatever, but there will always be a build that gets most out of the class and that people will pick for the best dps or healing or what not. So, to try and keep it simple, it's not much different than trait lines. Difference is that we lose skills.

  10. #35
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    " ...a lot of time and effort... to become ordinary. That time could have been spent on creating instances, instead. "

    Thats the point, a f2p game needs to be ordinary otherwise even the lame f2p status wont help to exist further...

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gondalen_Drake View Post
    " ...a lot of time and effort... to become ordinary. That time could have been spent on creating instances, instead. "

    Thats the point, a f2p game needs to be ordinary otherwise even the lame f2p status wont help to exist further...
    Nonsense. Being Extrodinary helps generate interest and in turn revenue!
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  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Siquayetsga View Post
    I've been playing a yellow-line hunter, a sword-and-board heal/tank captain, a DPS guardian, and a CC burglar for three years so be careful with the generalizations. I've played pretty much all the FOTM builds for most of the classes. Some (LM, RK, & Warden) are OK, but the FOTM builds for most classes are as dull as a box of rocks. I haven't bothered with a red-line hunter since SOA. The ability to do something other than just choose one-of-three builds is the core strength of the current system.

    That said, I agree that the game has "out-leveled" the current trait system and that some change is/was needed. However, I really do not like the the class redesigns as they have been described by the devs thus far. The new system, as described, has a distinct Radience-like aroma of fail.

    It's not that the tree-trait system itself that's a bad idea as much as the Devs seem to be intent on forcing everyone into one of three narrowly defined boxes. Want to DPS? Great. now you can't tank, heal, or CC at all. Want to CC? Fine, now you do 1/10th the DPS as before, can't heal, and have no mitigation. Happy? Even this wouldn't be so bad in a raid where everyone tends to fill one of the trinity roles anyway. But on-landscape or in a small group, hybrid builds should be encouraged not penalized. Oh yeah. There are no raids in Helm's Deep. Why are we forcing people into raiding roles again?
    You can go there with 12 men as well.

    And one tenth is a little bit to exaggerated...
    and Hunters e.g. are neither a healer nor a tank; so making relatively good CC and 75% (more propable I think, so 60-80% will be most ptopable I think) damage is a good mix, isn't it?

    And similar it COULD be with the other classes. We'll see it later in practice.

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gondalen_Drake View Post
    " ...a lot of time and effort... to become ordinary. That time could have been spent on creating instances, instead. "

    Thats the point, a f2p game needs to be ordinary otherwise even the lame f2p status wont help to exist further...
    It's just illogical. Neither F2P needs to be ordinary (for what reason?) nor is F2P a step forward to the end of a game. F2P was implemented because it makes more profit, and Turbine never had so much profit with LOTRO than now, and having more profit, means having more money to invest somewhere - eventually not all back into the game but at least not less than before because why should they dig their own grave by filling up the source of profit (by cutting invested money to this source)? Turbine is a company and that means they run it economically and therefore F2P only makes sense if it brings more profit and because they go on with F2P it seems they make more profit what means it goes more up than down for Turbine...

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by scrumtrelescent View Post
    It's not a nerf. The current trait system is completely stupid and absolutely cookie cutter, with lots of classes having useless specs that no one uses. For example, nearly every healing minstrel uses approximately the same build, it'll be nice to see some variation in the classes. The current system is the problem, not the new one.

    As for no new raids, I'm disappointed with that BUT absolutely willing to forgive it if Big Battles turn out good. There are some interesting ideas in what they've said about them so far. Of course, until we've actually seen and played them it's impossible to give any kind of assessment, but the IDEAS at least are good.

    MMO players are simply the WORST. "Innovate! Give us new! Break new ground! But also please always have these things that are expected in MMOS. So go ahead and innovate and try something different, but do that in ADDITION to developing the tiered multiboss raids with a gear ladder."

    MMOs do not have infinite developer resources: MMO players cry constantly for innovation and new ideas, then moan and complain when they don't get the things they "expect" in an MMO. You can't have everything. I am excited to see what Big Battles bring: if they are as good as they sound like they could be then I won't miss raids. There are things Turbine does that I really don't like and some things that I do like, but I do applaud them for at least trying something new and innovative instead of more of the same ol' same ol' multiboss raids.
    Love this answer, tweeting it!
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  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgoes View Post
    I've been playing many different mmo's to know that what you say, it's not really factual. Sure you can have a million builds, but people will have, more or less, 1 build for raiding, because that 1 build will get you the most out of the speccs. There might be small tweaks, but it won't be very different. Just like trait line atm, although atm you have 2 viable trait line for dps ( as hunter anyway ), with the changes you'll have 1 -> bowmaster. Look at rift, as a mage you have 6-7 trees? and you can pick any 3 trees for your specc, and put points wherever and do whatever, but there will always be a build that gets most out of the class and that people will pick for the best dps or healing or what not. So, to try and keep it simple, it's not much different than trait lines. Difference is that we lose skills.
    Why bowmaster? Why not huntsman?

    And even if everyone only have one build after the expansion: nothing would have become worse. The worst point will be the same like now, but there is enough potential and possbilities to become better than now and it could become better with the expansion or it'll stay as it is now...

  16. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valkrist View Post
    Well, we Scouts have 40 combat skills or so. We know that the intent of the Overlords is to bring that number down to 20 or so, more or less, that we can use at any given time. Now, when you say that there are more than 20 there, just not able to all be used at once, that is very true. But, surely, you must agree that cutting in half the number of skills we have at the ready takes away some of our ability to make choices, right?

    Even if they speed up the animations so that you are very busy with your twenty choices, there is something that will be lost by not having all the skills we once had available to us at any given time, wouldn't you say? For those of us who value choice, and I never realized how much I did in these sorts of things until I learned it was going to be taken away, that is a big deal. A really big deal.

    Regarding the arguments like 'wait and see' and 'you do not know until you know', I think that is very true about specific things within the system. But, not only can we make logical deductions regarding what is to come, with respect to certain things at least, the earlier we make those points, the more chance that they will be heard, and considered, and maybe even responded to. You do not wait until the house is on fire to go to buy a fire extinguisher, right?
    Yeah, you're right, in some cases you don't have the skills you want to have at that moment, but mostly you don't need all these 40 skills and there I'm also right. Which of both statements is more important by having a greater impact on gameplay we'll only see with open beta or release in practice.

    Good response! (last paragraph of this quote ^^ )

    Quote Originally Posted by Valkrist View Post

    Again, I do not think it is the system itself that is inflexible, and I will explain that further below. It is the fact that there are traits that are more powerful than the others that creates the "ONE BEST ABSOLUTELY POWERFUL BUILD AND ALL OTHERS ARE USELESS-BUILD". Do you see what I mean by that?

    If, within the new skill trees, there are things we gain that are more powerful than other things in that tree where we could spend the same points, the very same 'inflexibility' you are speaking to will be there. Even though the system will have changed, the same best builds will be there. It has nothing to do with the current system inherently at all. I think what some of us are trying to say is that there really was not a need to spend vital and valuable development time reworking something that did not need to be. The time spent doing all that could have instead been spent on balancing the existing traits, with some left over for Instances, or Housing, or any number of the other things we all would like to see
    Do we really want to start an discussion about flexibility and inflexibility about the different parts of the system? Do you agree to skip that?


    Quote Originally Posted by Valkrist View Post

    Again, this is not the system's fault, but the imbalance of the traits. The very same thing can happen with the new system. Time will tell.
    Okay, I skip the first sentene (see paragraph above). Yeah, time will tell. This point I'm trying to explain all these guys here the whole time. ^^


    Quote Originally Posted by Valkrist View Post
    Actually, there is something not only similar but exactly the same in all of those systems, as well as in the new system that is coming here: The necessity to spend a certain number of points within a 'level' or 'threshold' within the skill tree in order to allow one to have access to skills/traits/benefits further down the tree. That is an unequivocal fact, unless the Overlords here decide to make it differently from what they have said.

    Because of this, it is almost a certainty that we will be spending points in certain aspects we may not necessarily want to, in order to get further down the tree to things we do, right? Due to this, our freedom of choice is inhibited, to a degree. To some that may be more of an issue than most, but it is the case.

    Our current system allows us to choose freely from all of our traits to use. The only issue is having 5 traits of a certain tree slotted for the Capstone, but that will be true to a much greater degree in the new system. 2 completely free traits out of 7 is...29%. I doubt that we will still have 29% of our skill points left over in the new system, once we get down to the Legendary trait in the tree we choose to focus on. And, even if we do, those points are still restricted by the skill trees, and we can only get additional traits at the tops of those trees going down. As it is now, if I choose to put 5 Quiet Knife traits in to get the Legendary trait, I can choose the remaining 2 traits I use, out of the 19 I have not used yet, with absolutely no restriction whatsoever.

    Can you see how this is a bit more free than the new system will be?
    But you don't know in which extent this necessity will be.

    To a degree your freedom of choice is also inhibited with the current system. How much points are left after reaching a capstone we'll see after the expansion, time will tell like you said. But with a popular comparison to the MC (reason for this is being beyond my understanding because the trait system is much more complex - you have to pay attention to the effects of more skills than in MC) you have 77 points. With these 77 points you can fill e.g. 28 of the 35 general properties at the top, fulfill one trait tree completly and can fill of the other two trait trees each a half or maybe 2 full trait trees (that you can fulfill 2 or maybe 3 trait trees is another point why I don't like comparisons of trait system and MC-system). So if it is comparable, you can see that you have many possibilities with your points, but as I said I wouldn't believe this comparison. But nevertheless it could be possible to fill one trait completly up and then to have some points spent in other areas or you just get the capstone and then you have even more points to spend in the other two trait trees. And my opinion is that both possibilities will propably come, so that you get some more points with 95 and all deeds done than you can spend in one tree...

  17. #42
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    i wonder what will be the incentive as a lvl cap player to keep playing, why would i try to get more and better gear when there are no instances (with higher difficulty or tier) that i need them for? Why would i lvl a char at all when a lvl 10 can do the same things... i guess i will have to wait it out, but to me it starts to look like less mmo and more single player game experience...

  18. #43
    I can make some kind of comparison with what is already passing on a part of LOTRO... PVMP, creep side....

    lately a play exclusively PVMP, creep side, and creeps have close to 20, or so, abilities to play with...

    as I also play RIFT and SWTOR, I can imagine the devs could want to implement a system like those... but I guess we still have to few information to make an opinion...

    I, personally, prefer the RIFT tree system, over the one from SWTOR, but that is just my opinion... lets wait to see what the devs are planning... we can even find it is a completely different system...

  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by scrumtrelescent View Post
    Oh I'm quite sure there will be. There will always be players that break out the calculators and calculate carefully exactly which build does slightly more. Certainly there will be people saying Build X is better than Build Y, etc. But at least the number of options will be going up dramatically with the new system.

    Furthermore, it is in beta and still subject to change.
    Umm.... no? Lets make a difference between cookie-cutters and flexibility shall we (yes, there is a difference).
    There will ALWAYS be some sort of cookie-cutter build, it will just look different depending on the potency of the skills available. However, cookie-cutting and flexibility are two different things. Cookie-cutting is about maximising things and as such you WILL take certain things over other things to get the maximum values. Flexibility again is about the number of choices available no matter of potency. Someone did the math on the flexibility of builds with the current system (mix 'n match) and the result was 100k+ (if someone could dig out the post it would be nice). Now, with a locked system in which you have to pick X and Y in order to get Z the flexibility in the system is, needless to say, a LOT less than a system where you can pick Z and also pick A, C and N at the same time.
    In short, the number of available options (not talking viable, that is another discussion... and a discussion we cannot have until we see the trait trees themselves) will drastically be reduced from the current 100k+. However, the number of cookie-cutting builds will remain the same, namely one CK build.

    As for the second part... well, when things reaches beta the general principle is already down in stone when it comes to Turbine. Yes, there will be some fine-tuning etc BUT the general idea behind it will no longer change.


    Quote Originally Posted by Orodbril View Post
    It IS flexible, or it has th potential to be flexible. But you can't say it will be inflexible because you don't know it until now...

    The current version IS very inflexible. Atm every class has something like the "ONE BEST ABSOLUTELY POWERFUL BUILD AND ALL OTHERS ARE USELESS-BUILD". It is inflexible and it will either become flexible or STAY inflexible...
    Again, read my reply above. Our current system is VERY flexible but could surely use some tuning. A tree-build is more inflexible than a non-tree build, that's just the nature of things.

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flixxer View Post
    i wonder what will be the incentive as a lvl cap player to keep playing, why would i try to get more and better gear when there are no instances (with higher difficulty or tier) that i need them for? Why would i lvl a char at all when a lvl 10 can do the same things... i guess i will have to wait it out, but to me it starts to look like less mmo and more single player game experience...
    You'll have all skills and your stats wilkl be scaled - but all in all you're weaker than a 95-er player playing a 95-er, because the scaled gear isn't such good like original 95-er and the same with the stats... the question is, how big the difference will be.

    You can see it like this: Scaled gear is calculating without inflation. Original 95-gear is with inflation. For that reason that the 95-gear has the same "value" it has to have more - respectively higher denominations - to have the same "value". So there is since level 1 to (new) 95 a inflation of stats. I think 1000 was a normal number for your mainstat with 75, with 85 more than 3000 is normal... The stats increased inflationary and this wouldn't be the case with the scaled gear - or at least less inflationary... Good comparison or not so good? ^^

  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fralin View Post
    Umm.... no? Lets make a difference between cookie-cutters and flexibility shall we (yes, there is a difference).
    There will ALWAYS be some sort of cookie-cutter build, it will just look different depending on the potency of the skills available. However, cookie-cutting and flexibility are two different things. Cookie-cutting is about maximising things and as such you WILL take certain things over other things to get the maximum values. Flexibility again is about the number of choices available no matter of potency. Someone did the math on the flexibility of builds with the current system (mix 'n match) and the result was 100k+ (if someone could dig out the post it would be nice). Now, with a locked system in which you have to pick X and Y in order to get Z the flexibility in the system is, needless to say, a LOT less than a system where you can pick Z and also pick A, C and N at the same time.
    In short, the number of available options (not talking viable, that is another discussion... and a discussion we cannot have until we see the trait trees themselves) will drastically be reduced from the current 100k+. However, the number of cookie-cutting builds will remain the same, namely one CK build.

    As for the second part... well, when things reaches beta the general principle is already down in stone when it comes to Turbine. Yes, there will be some fine-tuning etc BUT the general idea behind it will no longer change.




    Again, read my reply above. Our current system is VERY flexible but could surely use some tuning. A tree-build is more inflexible than a non-tree build, that's just the nature of things.
    To calculate your number: 24*23*22*21*20*19*18 I think with this you'll get the right number of possibilities.

    How many possibilities we'll have after the revamp we'll see later, we don't know all the conditions you need to get further down the tree. Propapbly a attribute will have different levels and depending how miuch points you spend it will be stronger or less stronger. So there are now several possibilities to go down the tree: maybe you have to spend only one point per attribute to go further down, or you have to make all levels of the attribute to get further below - or most propably you have to fulfill a number of levels for a certain attribute between these two options...

    This picture was published on the Store for the Pre-Purchase today.



    At least you can see that (red trait) on the top 7 lines you can spend 70 points and propably 15 other points in the bottom line. So 85 points per traits propably.
    Another thing you can see at the red trait is the following: on the left the attribute in the 3rd line is unlocked by the attribute in the 2nd line where only 1 point is spend. So it will be at least possible that some attributes require only 1 point to go further down.

    On the blue trait you can see another interesting thing:
    You can spend points on the attribute in 3 rd line on the left, although there is only 1 point spent on an attribute in the 2nd line which is not directly above the attribute in the 3rd line on the left. So propably or possibly you'll need to spend only 1 point per line to get further down into a trait tree... This would offer a huge number different possibilities to spend the points... and another increase of the number of the possibilities is that you can decide if you only spend 0,1,2,3,4 or 5 points to get further below or if there are certain other conditions that you can decide to spend between 1 and 5 or 3 and 5 or 2 and 5 or 4 and 5 points or you have to spend 5 points...

    So as conclusion: There will be a huge number of different possibilities which means flexibility. The exact number you can't calculate yet without knowing certain conditions. And you can't say yet if this number will be smaller or larger than the number of the current system.

  22. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Orodbril View Post
    It wasn't giving the "GREAT FREEDOM" like you told it. Again, when you want to raid you have this, this, this, this, that, this and that attribute and these 3 legendary ones and no ther one... Is that the freedom of choice? NO!

    And you're comparing the following LOTRO-tree-trait-system with those from other MMOs... from different developers... with different ideas... with different game play... Yeah, a really good comparison if there's nothing similar than the name...
    traited for a raid depends ON THE RAID. not the people who play them. make a raid that requires something different to be traited. people trait for the mechanics of the raid, one build for one way of running it, and another for a different way of running it.

    the comparison is apt for rift (played it with 75% of the true raiding kins who left the game after RoR became a grind-fest, again that is lvl design that forced a certain type of play style but problems with RoR is a different thread) you invest in a tree for passives and active skills, which *gasp* is exactly how the war horses worked and what the devs based the new trait tree system on.

 

 
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