It IS flexible, or it has th potential to be flexible. But you can't say it will be inflexible because you don't know it until now...
The current version IS very inflexible. Atm every class has something like the "ONE BEST ABSOLUTELY POWERFUL BUILD AND ALL OTHERS ARE USELESS-BUILD". It is inflexible and it will either become flexible or STAY inflexible...
And you're comparing the following LOTRO-tree-trait-system with those from other MMOs... from different developers... with different ideas... with different game play... Yeah, a really good comparison if there's nothing similar than the name...
Of course it can, and the remedy to it is exactly the same thing that would 'fix' the current system as well: Balancing those traits to make them all worthwhile.
There really have not been a lot of specifics given, ones that we can be positive about, anyway. Some of the new abilities mentioned in the Scout diary sound interesting, so we can be positive about that
Even if they speed up the animations so that you are very busy with your twenty choices, there is something that will be lost by not having all the skills we once had available to us at any given time, wouldn't you say? For those of us who value choice, and I never realized how much I did in these sorts of things until I learned it was going to be taken away, that is a big deal. A really big deal.
Regarding the arguments like 'wait and see' and 'you do not know until you know', I think that is very true about specific things within the system. But, not only can we make logical deductions regarding what is to come, with respect to certain things at least, the earlier we make those points, the more chance that they will be heard, and considered, and maybe even responded to. You do not wait until the house is on fire to go to buy a fire extinguisher, right?
If, within the new skill trees, there are things we gain that are more powerful than other things in that tree where we could spend the same points, the very same 'inflexibility' you are speaking to will be there. Even though the system will have changed, the same best builds will be there. It has nothing to do with the current system inherently at all. I think what some of us are trying to say is that there really was not a need to spend vital and valuable development time reworking something that did not need to be. The time spent doing all that could have instead been spent on balancing the existing traits, with some left over for Instances, or Housing, or any number of the other things we all would like to see
Because of this, it is almost a certainty that we will be spending points in certain aspects we may not necessarily want to, in order to get further down the tree to things we do, right? Due to this, our freedom of choice is inhibited, to a degree. To some that may be more of an issue than most, but it is the case.
Our current system allows us to choose freely from all of our traits to use. The only issue is having 5 traits of a certain tree slotted for the Capstone, but that will be true to a much greater degree in the new system. 2 completely free traits out of 7 is...29%. I doubt that we will still have 29% of our skill points left over in the new system, once we get down to the Legendary trait in the tree we choose to focus on. And, even if we do, those points are still restricted by the skill trees, and we can only get additional traits at the tops of those trees going down. As it is now, if I choose to put 5 Quiet Knife traits in to get the Legendary trait, I can choose the remaining 2 traits I use, out of the 19 I have not used yet, with absolutely no restriction whatsoever.
Can you see how this is a bit more free than the new system will be?
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One point about the new traits system is that if you can switch between saved builds quickly that is already a nice feature over the current system for any class that needs to change their role in raids often. (RK healing or dps, etc.)
That said, I agree that the game has "out-leveled" the current trait system and that some change is/was needed. However, I really do not like the the class redesigns as they have been described by the devs thus far. The new system, as described, has a distinct Radience-like aroma of fail.
It's not that the tree-trait system itself that's a bad idea as much as the Devs seem to be intent on forcing everyone into one of three narrowly defined boxes. Want to DPS? Great. now you can't tank, heal, or CC at all. Want to CC? Fine, now you do 1/10th the DPS as before, can't heal, and have no mitigation. Happy? Even this wouldn't be so bad in a raid where everyone tends to fill one of the trinity roles anyway. But on-landscape or in a small group, hybrid builds should be encouraged not penalized. Oh yeah. There are no raids in Helm's Deep. Why are we forcing people into raiding roles again?
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Groloing - Rune-Keeper
" ...a lot of time and effort... to become ordinary. That time could have been spent on creating instances, instead. "
Thats the point, a f2p game needs to be ordinary otherwise even the lame f2p status wont help to exist further...
And one tenth is a little bit to exaggerated...
and Hunters e.g. are neither a healer nor a tank; so making relatively good CC and 75% (more propable I think, so 60-80% will be most ptopable I think) damage is a good mix, isn't it?
And similar it COULD be with the other classes. We'll see it later in practice.
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And even if everyone only have one build after the expansion: nothing would have become worse. The worst point will be the same like now, but there is enough potential and possbilities to become better than now and it could become better with the expansion or it'll stay as it is now...
Good response! (last paragraph of this quote ^^ )
To a degree your freedom of choice is also inhibited with the current system. How much points are left after reaching a capstone we'll see after the expansion, time will tell like you said. But with a popular comparison to the MC (reason for this is being beyond my understanding because the trait system is much more complex - you have to pay attention to the effects of more skills than in MC) you have 77 points. With these 77 points you can fill e.g. 28 of the 35 general properties at the top, fulfill one trait tree completly and can fill of the other two trait trees each a half or maybe 2 full trait trees (that you can fulfill 2 or maybe 3 trait trees is another point why I don't like comparisons of trait system and MC-system). So if it is comparable, you can see that you have many possibilities with your points, but as I said I wouldn't believe this comparison. But nevertheless it could be possible to fill one trait completly up and then to have some points spent in other areas or you just get the capstone and then you have even more points to spend in the other two trait trees. And my opinion is that both possibilities will propably come, so that you get some more points with 95 and all deeds done than you can spend in one tree...
i wonder what will be the incentive as a lvl cap player to keep playing, why would i try to get more and better gear when there are no instances (with higher difficulty or tier) that i need them for? Why would i lvl a char at all when a lvl 10 can do the same things... i guess i will have to wait it out, but to me it starts to look like less mmo and more single player game experience...
Flixxer - Hunter - Imladris - 100 R7 ---- Danielleth - Minstrel - Imladris - 22
Zaireth - Rune-keeper - Imladris - 73 -- Ariannasophia - Warden - Imladris - 14
Flixxer - Champion - Eldar - 54
I can make some kind of comparison with what is already passing on a part of LOTRO... PVMP, creep side....
lately a play exclusively PVMP, creep side, and creeps have close to 20, or so, abilities to play with...
as I also play RIFT and SWTOR, I can imagine the devs could want to implement a system like those... but I guess we still have to few information to make an opinion...
I, personally, prefer the RIFT tree system, over the one from SWTOR, but that is just my opinion... lets wait to see what the devs are planning... we can even find it is a completely different system...
There will ALWAYS be some sort of cookie-cutter build, it will just look different depending on the potency of the skills available. However, cookie-cutting and flexibility are two different things. Cookie-cutting is about maximising things and as such you WILL take certain things over other things to get the maximum values. Flexibility again is about the number of choices available no matter of potency. Someone did the math on the flexibility of builds with the current system (mix 'n match) and the result was 100k+ (if someone could dig out the post it would be nice). Now, with a locked system in which you have to pick X and Y in order to get Z the flexibility in the system is, needless to say, a LOT less than a system where you can pick Z and also pick A, C and N at the same time.
In short, the number of available options (not talking viable, that is another discussion... and a discussion we cannot have until we see the trait trees themselves) will drastically be reduced from the current 100k+. However, the number of cookie-cutting builds will remain the same, namely one CK build.
As for the second part... well, when things reaches beta the general principle is already down in stone when it comes to Turbine. Yes, there will be some fine-tuning etc BUT the general idea behind it will no longer change.
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You can see it like this: Scaled gear is calculating without inflation. Original 95-gear is with inflation. For that reason that the 95-gear has the same "value" it has to have more - respectively higher denominations - to have the same "value". So there is since level 1 to (new) 95 a inflation of stats. I think 1000 was a normal number for your mainstat with 75, with 85 more than 3000 is normal... The stats increased inflationary and this wouldn't be the case with the scaled gear - or at least less inflationary... Good comparison or not so good? ^^
How many possibilities we'll have after the revamp we'll see later, we don't know all the conditions you need to get further down the tree. Propapbly a attribute will have different levels and depending how miuch points you spend it will be stronger or less stronger. So there are now several possibilities to go down the tree: maybe you have to spend only one point per attribute to go further down, or you have to make all levels of the attribute to get further below - or most propably you have to fulfill a number of levels for a certain attribute between these two options...
This picture was published on the Store for the Pre-Purchase today.
At least you can see that (red trait) on the top 7 lines you can spend 70 points and propably 15 other points in the bottom line. So 85 points per traits propably.
Another thing you can see at the red trait is the following: on the left the attribute in the 3rd line is unlocked by the attribute in the 2nd line where only 1 point is spend. So it will be at least possible that some attributes require only 1 point to go further down.
On the blue trait you can see another interesting thing:
You can spend points on the attribute in 3 rd line on the left, although there is only 1 point spent on an attribute in the 2nd line which is not directly above the attribute in the 3rd line on the left. So propably or possibly you'll need to spend only 1 point per line to get further down into a trait tree... This would offer a huge number different possibilities to spend the points... and another increase of the number of the possibilities is that you can decide if you only spend 0,1,2,3,4 or 5 points to get further below or if there are certain other conditions that you can decide to spend between 1 and 5 or 3 and 5 or 2 and 5 or 4 and 5 points or you have to spend 5 points...
So as conclusion: There will be a huge number of different possibilities which means flexibility. The exact number you can't calculate yet without knowing certain conditions. And you can't say yet if this number will be smaller or larger than the number of the current system.
the comparison is apt for rift (played it with 75% of the true raiding kins who left the game after RoR became a grind-fest, again that is lvl design that forced a certain type of play style but problems with RoR is a different thread) you invest in a tree for passives and active skills, which *gasp* is exactly how the war horses worked and what the devs based the new trait tree system on.
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