2 edits and counting
2 edits and counting
First off....posts aside I love you Orak.
That being said...did you move toons to BW?
I left servers to get away from all this BS and yet here are the same old people doing the same old song and dance,blathering on and trolling.Most of you...are from E.
Can you keep your garbage on E forums.You guys did a fine job of making E a toxic environment people no longer wanted to be around.And if not....will you please tell me what server,forums or otherwise none of you will be visiting so I can go there?
I hate you all.Especially,Evilspinnre.
There's mean people on the internet?What is this madness you speak of?
That is indeed correct, having had a few discussions with Illy on the matter there are benefits for the option to be toggled on and off. I personally prefer it to be off, because of the aforementioned reason.
Having weighed benefits for/against it, I'm not entirely sure why people choose to toggle it on still.
I'm well aware there is trolling and forum drama everywhere.I can hang.
But,I don't even get a new cast of characters?A new style of trolling?Just the same old dbags from E,singing the same old song.Having the exact fights where they say the exact same #### over and over while posting...ta da the same old memes and .gifs...........disappointing.
I take huge pride and joy from getting my auto attacks off, and even if I won (rofl which is rare this book) id be extremely disappointing if I didnt time my skills for the auto attacks. Then watching players who not only seem to ignore the importance of auto attacks, but also having the option ON, I feel they're butchering the Champion class. Sure, they're skilled at the class, but to me its mind boggling when this has been around since, launch? Hey Zap, your good with dates, can you remember?
Anyway, rant off. Sol hasnt linked anymore videos, so eh. I hope Deso doesn't write anything too long, trying to leave this thread.
Last edited by BeckyMcGee; Nov 02 2013 at 10:19 PM.
***Warning for pre-school level math***
Warg attack duration/animations are much faster than LM ones, yes you slow my attack duration by 30%, but I also increase mine by 25%, meaning i'm 5% slower than unbuffed and undebuffed, which is still quite meaningfully faster than an LM, which means the longer we stay in melee range, the more favorable the attack given to taken ratio is for me. The other debuffs you list are completely irrelevant to this discussion. If we play rock 'em sock 'em robots and stand face to face beating on eachother, lets imagine I can do 1k dps. If you debuff my damage with the -30% melee damage, this figure goes down to 700dps. If you debuff my miss chance, by any given amount, my dps will decrease (on average) by the percentage of the miss chance applied. so if this was a 20% miss chance, and I was down to 700 dps, the miss debuff further reduces it to (on average) 560 dps. Total DPS lost = 44%. Now lets imagine we're fighting like idiotic keyturning fighter plans, with a single hit per pass in wide, even sweeps. I can manage 500dps in this scenario, damage debuff takes this to 350, miss debuff takes this to 280dps. Total DPS lost = 44%. (shocking, I know). Your miss and damage debuffs are completely meaningless in a discussion about movement, since (when averaged out over many encounters, in the case of the miss debuff) their effect is static. The attack speed debuff is a valid one to consider, but in the case of a warg, the attack speed/shorter animations still favor the warg over LM. If you cut in and out of melee, both of our dps will be lowered compared to staying in melee, but mine will be more greatly lowered, since I land more shots in a given amount of time, while cutting in and out means we would be trading single hits (other than the occasional skill+eye rake).
So I went ahead and found a way to test out champ stuff to see if/how it differed from my understanding of auto-attacks and yours. while it wasn't quite how I understood it, and warden attack animations pretty well hide it, just about everything you said regarding the way auto-attacks interact with champion skills is wrong. Feel free to test it yourself, and report back to me with an auto-attack landing inside of brutal or ferocious, 2-handed or dual wielding or swapping, or show any instance where skills queued in continuity interfere with an auto-attack landing between said skills, aside from immediate skills like clobber (there are a very small sample that I found do this, but I believe the benefits of getting those combinations out faster is FAR superior to 'waiting' on an auto-attack). Also, while moving into or out of melee range, regular skills have a longer range than auto-attacks (as I described previously), so even without the range legacy, an auto-attack will 'wait' on a melee skill if the skill is used as you enter melee range. Which means to get an auto-attack preceding an actual skill, you must run through your target, only hitting them as you get to their 'center', at which you won't get a second auto-attack without continuing to face them, whereas 'leading' with an actual skill and following it with a second will in almost every situation land an auto-attack in between, and take the same amount of time. Surely we can agree the pattern of Skill > AA > Skill is greater damage than AA > Skill > AA. While obviously a continuous chain of Skill > AA > Skill > AA is higher damage than Skill > AA > Skill, a pause (with chance for bow attack), Skill > AA > Skill, if facing a competent melee dps opponent, your incoming damage will be increased as well, and when you consider the animation times on skills like ferocious or brutal (which do not get a 'free' auto-attack mid-animation), you will be exposing yourself to added incoming dps while reaping absolutely no benefit yourself, since all that is required to gain the full effect of those long skills is begin the animation in melee, facing the target. More simply, which is better: getting off Swift > AA > Brutal while taking Claws > AA > Rend, or getting off Swift > AA > Brutal > AA while taking Claws > AA > Rend > AA > Claws?
Enjoy the wall of text everyone.
P.S. Soleus: We're talking about the benefits of auto-attacks, not immediate skills breaking up regular skill animations. While that basic info might be ok for the champ beginners guide to not being terribad it both isn't relevant to the discussion, and isn't very accurate. Immediate skills break up a regular skill's animation, and play there own (which is usually shorter) instead, but you still have to wait for the timer on the regular skill to complete before firing off another skill after that one. So if Helm's Deep makes ferocious strikes a 12 hit skill with a hilariously long 12 second animation, and you pop clobber immediately after ferocious, you will indeed see clobber break the ferocious animation, but then you will be left picking your nose for 11 seconds doing absolutely no combat animations or attacks, even if you have swift or some other skill queued. The only exception to this is fast skills, which will fill this 'dead time'. This has been extensively tested and I believe may even be a part of the attack durations sticky in the champ forums. Try to stay on topic, or at least be right when you go off on a tangent.
Edit: my reply was long enough i had a snack before posting and missed a good opportunity to quote you hoping I don't make another wall of text
Theres nothing wrong with people talking, and even if I didnt have a toon on BW, that doesnt prevent me from posting anymore then the next. Unlike others, I rarely gate crash, and if I do its for a real reason as noted above. I also got angry at that troll for provoking any of my past into another servers thread, its extremely rude for others. Im also wanted to actually check if im wrong about this aa option, throwing this topic out there, im still wondering what different this option has being on instead of off.
P.S: Pretty funny, Boomy is basically telling me to #### off !
Last edited by lionoil; Nov 02 2013 at 10:56 PM.
I toggle auto attacks on/off in between immediate and fast skills. I prefer the immediate skills to cut through the longer animations of strike skills than auto attacks, and this enabled smoother skill chains centered around Merciful Strike (I always trait Bountiful Mercy for the 50% morale threshold).
I also equip the 'Moor Cowbell instead of the bow. Why? As much as I admire Christopher Walken, I prefer the melee auto attack DPS to the minor passive stat gain from the equipped bow (crit/mastery or crit def/mitigation).
Unless your target remains stationary, or your timing is perfect (mine is not), then I noticed a drop in DPS from guaranteed miss ranged auto-attacks as I dart into/out from melee range.
This convo boils down to: Orak why are you using a full melee style instead of semi kiting? Thats it. I know how to abuse different styles, and you were trying to tell me im either oblivious or unaware of the differences. EITHER OR your preaching to the choir.
@YOUR OTHER WALL OF TEXT@
Go read what Isi noted, also ready my reply to Zapdos, and test that also. If you think im wrong on a specific area, I might have already covered it.
You still are missing my primary point in all this in bringing up the LM vs warg, which relates to attack speeds and melee range, this will be my last try. 1 player is using a skill that takes 10 seconds to execute against another who is using a skill with a 1 second execution. Both skills must play in their entirety. Both skill animations will start the moment they are selected, and both require the player to be in the same range. Niether player is required to stay in range once the animation starts to receive full benefits. Why would the player using the 10 second skill ever want to stay in range of the player using a 1 second skill after the .1 second it takes to start the skill, or come close to that player again until after their 10 second animation is over? In this extreme example, if both players only get into melee for .1 seconds every 10 seconds, they will always hit eachother with the same number of skills. If they stay continuously in range of eachother, the player with 1 second skill animations will land 10 times as many attacks as their opponent. Obviously warg vs LM attack durations are not 10x shorter, but even if they are only 1s vs 0.9s, that is still an extra attack gained every 10 seconds over the LM, where a different movement pattern would preclude any advantage at all.
Remorseless is a relatively short animation by champ strike skill standards and Merciful is a 'fast' skill, so thats a bit of a bad example compared to more normal rotations. Also, Remorseless is only worth it with a 2-hander if seeking is available (or so I'm told). If we compared a more 'meat and potatoes' champ rotation like WA > Swift > Brutal (I dunno which works better between leading with wild or swift, tbh), to a Burg who potentially gets about 5 hits off in that time frame if the champ stays in melee during the brutal animation (punny), the burg may indeed take more damage than the champ since they are 'softer', but the damage margin between the two is closer in that scenario than if the champ did WA > Swift > Brutal and moved out of melee, probably the burg only gets 4 attacks off. If the champ is able to move in and away perfectly for each of the three skills, each player potentially only gets off 3 skills. Maybe the burg does take more damage in each encounter, but the more the champ stays in range while using slower attacks, the closer the gap in damage taken between the two gets.
Edit: this threat is moving too fast for me...
Last edited by spelunker; Nov 02 2013 at 11:36 PM.
Kidefence | Twong
Acta Non Verba | Stainless
Edit: One of my favorite tracks...
Last edited by CodeofMisconduct; Nov 03 2013 at 12:20 AM.
Then instead of you actually looking at my LMs fighting a reaver using a different style, you assume I fight every foe exactly the same, thats an assumption. But if you simply looked at my fights verses reavers where I really need to change my approach, you'd actually -see- it.
Lastly, have you ever seen me spam kite a warg from 30m away using BE? Nope, so does that mean I dont know how to?
Want to find out about Champ+bow+aa? Since your not listening or understand, go try it for yourself and take into consideration what ive said. When someone says: I personally prefer it to be off, because of the aforementioned reason (my reason im assuming due to quote). Having weighed benefits for/against it, I'm not entirely sure why people choose to toggle it on still.
If your not going to listen to me, at least read that. When we go back to the original post, you were arguing against someone questioning the constant use the bows aa projing.
Simplistic example: You semi kite off, turn around and your foe is 7m away from you so decide to run and use brutal, but as you are the bow aa triggers (miss) then you get within melee range and drop a pure brutal without any initial aa due to the bow.
Lets say dust is up, 2/3 brutal miss. You burn 3 pips and do hardly any dps.
OPTION OFF: aa hits and 2/3 of brutal miss but you still dropped more dps then previously. DERPY DERP. If you have more chances to hit = more dps and more chances to bypass reavers dust and other factors such as WL BPE. Even if the melee aa missed bc of dust, at least you had a higher chance of hitting.
Rinse and repeat and you'll constantly be burning free dps for some unknown reason, but the other option by default drops more dps. Given how some players constantly use this style, it only increases the amount of burnt attacks, and this has been around since launch? Why are people still doing it?
Whats hilarious is how something so tiny and simply, is so hard to comprehend and can drag on for pages.
Last edited by lionoil; Nov 03 2013 at 12:34 AM.
and with that, I'm done. I've laid out my point, which you are not going to agree with no matter how I lay it out, and vice versa.Whats hilarious is how something so tiny and simply, is so hard to comprehend and can drag on for pages.
@Thot/Illy: Thanks for the input and well understood (and I agree on the pvp with music, its one of the big reasons I haven't gotten to know people in vent/TS as well as I should like to have in my various kins and factions). It is a of a different experience on a class where cooldown timers are more easily observed (warden) as well.
This thread now seems to belong to the E-gos rather than the Brandywhiners. Colonization successful.
Back! Back you fiends! Away with you!
First of all I fully agree with all that Deso said to you.
Second when you adress your superiors you say SIR.
Third, on the AA topic now. What you' re saying is 100% dumb. You don't have to turn AAs off in order to control them. I play a guardian and my attack duration blows. I can only reduce it down to -10% with relics/class trait, although I learned long time ago how to not derp miss AAs with my bow cuz i'm kiting off a long animation OR more importantly have my AAs LOSed cuz my opponent outmoved me. Let me go ahead and use your 'simplistic' example.
OPTION OFF #2: You semi kite, run 7m away. You turn around, stop moving for a milisecond, get a bow AA off and then approach for BA therefore getting a bow AA off without delaying AAs cuz you deactivated them thus increasing your overall damage.
Now this example ofc is not even close to realistic cuz a good turner won't allow you to get a 7m distance off him. In any case, what I stated is neither hard to do nor does it take years of research to figure out and practise on. You' re so totally overthinking the whole thing. It's simple, all it takes is knowledge of the class (aka time spent on) and more specifically knowing when your skill animations end and when AAs will trigger. Bow auto-attacks don't hinder you, it's an extra helpful tool you have in your pocecion. Deactivating AAs is an unecessary waste with a very few exceptions/strats, yours excluded.
To sum up. It's not hard to time Auto Attacks. It's better if you' re keeping an eye on them but for the most part you have more important things to worry about than missing 1 or 2 (worst case scenario) auto-attacks. To me it simply seems that your lack of ability is what makes you look into secondary things thinking that if you get them down it will improve your performance. On top of that from fighting you and seeing the way you roll it gives me the impression that such non-important things make you feel accomplished. You' re not the only one that has figured them out and it doesn't make you better if you land a couple more auto-attacks but lose the fight cuz you payed too much attention to it.
Simply put Orak not only are you bad, you' re also a fool.
Edit: As for saying that kid was fighting point blank I'm pretty sure the screenshots he linked speak for themselves.
Edit #2: I forgot to mention something.
Timing AAs is harder to do on a champ over a guard and harder on a guard over a captain (Talking heavies only). There are 4 factors that affect this. 1) Attack Duration, 2) Length of skill rotation 3) Number of skills used 4) melee range and bow
1) Champs have -30% Atk dur. 25% from flurry (if traited) and 5% from the relics. Captains have -5% from relics and -20% if war cry is activated. Guards have -10% from relics and class trait. Obviously the faster your atk duration is, the faster your auto-attacks fire and thefore the harder to control. Thus the order of difficulty when it comes to maintaining your AAs according to atk duration only is: Champ > Captain > Guard.
2) Length of skill rotation is determined by a) length of skill animation b) number of fast/immediate skills
a)Champ has the shortest animations among the 3 heavy classes followed by captain and finally guard.
b) -Guard has the most fast skills. Champs have Merciful and captains Shadow's Lament. Note: I'm talking about DPS skills only.
-Champ has the most immediate skills on a short cooldown: Clobber/Hedge/Battle Frenzy. Guard and captain have only kick/stamp on either a 1m or 30s CD whether you re using legacy or not. Suppose hedge goes for glory but anyway i' ll put it there.
In any case: rotation wise champs have the fastest one followed by guards and then captains. So according to #2 factor it's harder to maintain your auto-attacks on champ over guard over captain
3) Number of skills used which also translates into number of hotkeyes you have to press. Your UI setup and gaming equipment plays a big role in this. Gaming Keyboards and/or Mice make your life easier cuz they supply you with a bigger number of more accessible hotkeyes. The less skills you use or the less hotkeyes you press the easier it is for you to control your movement and therefore your AAs. Guards have the most skills in their rotation followed by champs and then captains.
4) Champ and Guard have 4.2m range (if you choose to slot the legacy) while captain has 2.5m. This means that captains are within AA range every time they use a skill while on guard/champ you have to keep an eye on it. Also not having a bow makes it easier for captains. So Captain >Champ-Guard
Summing this up. The way I see it the easiest class to control AAs on is captain, followed by guard and then champ.
Last edited by Therealmvp; Nov 03 2013 at 04:00 AM.
Wow! So many replies to each other and so quickly too! Clearly Turbines forums are less laggy than their servers! Amazing!
Also I refuse to read any of the previous posts or contribute to this in any way.
P.S: Boom; No. :P
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