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  1. #226
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    2 edits and counting

  2. #227
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    Quote Originally Posted by lionoil View Post
    More mindless trash that nobody cares about
    The apple has fallen so far from the tree it could've wiped out the dinosaurs.

  3. #228
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    First off....posts aside I love you Orak.

    That being said...did you move toons to BW?

    I left servers to get away from all this BS and yet here are the same old people doing the same old song and dance,blathering on and trolling.Most of you...are from E.

    Can you keep your garbage on E forums.You guys did a fine job of making E a toxic environment people no longer wanted to be around.And if not....will you please tell me what server,forums or otherwise none of you will be visiting so I can go there?

    Thanks.

    I hate you all.Especially,Evilspinnre.
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  4. #229
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeckyMcGee View Post
    First off....posts aside I love you Orak.

    That being said...did you move toons to BW?

    I left servers to get away from all this BS and yet here are the same old people doing the same old song and dance,blathering on and trolling.Most of you...are from E.

    Can you keep your garbage on E forums.You guys did a fine job of making E a toxic environment people no longer wanted to be around.And if not....will you please tell me what server,forums or otherwise none of you will be visiting so I can go there?

    Thanks.

    I hate you all.Especially,Evilspinnre.
    I suggest a thickening of the skin, the internet is a mean place with mean people.
    There may come a time for valor without renown, for those without swords may surely still die upon them.


  5. #230
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    There's mean people on the internet?What is this madness you speak of?
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  6. #231
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    Quote Originally Posted by lionoil View Post
    Regardless of the aa changes, the aa can be burnt from the champs bow, and if they're burnt for that timing sequence you have to wait for the next, and if your within melee range for that sequence and its burnt, then that dps is lost/gone/zero. The difference in having the bow option on or off, is basically forcing the system to only start when your in melee range, so all aa lands perfectly and none of them are burnt saying MISS. Wouldnt you prefer -anything- apart from MISS? And if you could hit for 1k instead of MISS, wouldnt you think my point is valid?

    .

    That is indeed correct, having had a few discussions with Illy on the matter there are benefits for the option to be toggled on and off. I personally prefer it to be off, because of the aforementioned reason.

    Having weighed benefits for/against it, I'm not entirely sure why people choose to toggle it on still.
    There may come a time for valor without renown, for those without swords may surely still die upon them.


  7. #232
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeckyMcGee View Post
    There's mean people on the internet?What is this madness you speak of?

    I'm well aware there is trolling and forum drama everywhere.I can hang.

    But,I don't even get a new cast of characters?A new style of trolling?Just the same old dbags from E,singing the same old song.Having the exact fights where they say the exact same #### over and over while posting...ta da the same old memes and .gifs...........disappointing.
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  8. #233
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thorandril View Post
    That is indeed correct, having had a few discussions with Illy on the matter there are benefits for the option to be toggled on and off. I personally prefer it to be off, because of the aforementioned reason.

    Having weighed benefits for/against it, I'm not entirely sure why people choose to toggle it on still.
    Ya, ive got no idea why players have it on either. By default it simply means you'll do less damage, only con is if you ever stand still your rooted. Any champ standing still isnt going to do alot of dps on moving targets, so this con is irrelevant.

    I take huge pride and joy from getting my auto attacks off, and even if I won (rofl which is rare this book) id be extremely disappointing if I didnt time my skills for the auto attacks. Then watching players who not only seem to ignore the importance of auto attacks, but also having the option ON, I feel they're butchering the Champion class. Sure, they're skilled at the class, but to me its mind boggling when this has been around since, launch? Hey Zap, your good with dates, can you remember?

    Anyway, rant off. Sol hasnt linked anymore videos, so eh. I hope Deso doesn't write anything too long, trying to leave this thread.

  9. #234
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    Last edited by BeckyMcGee; Nov 02 2013 at 10:19 PM.
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  10. #235
    Quote Originally Posted by lionoil View Post
    Either style is irrelevant to my point, since both styles would benefit from getting extra attacks in simply because, its extra, damage. When mastered, its a reliable source of dps, not a minor increase like you've assumed.



    Bad assumption, you should know better, and your an expert after only two fights? -_-
    I dont need movement to avoid your attacks, I only need to prevent the positional dmg because it seems your totally unaware of what im doing to your warg. You think your faster attack duration is dropping a crapload? Guess you didnt notice in those two fights; -30% melee dps; -30% attack duration; 17% base miss that can max to 42% miss ;-critical chance; you take 7% more dmg; and couldn't gain positional dmg apart from second fight when I lagged taking a raid invite, surely you noticed that too? The faster I dps wargs, the easier the fight is, which means landing every auto attack, and not running off giving you my back.

    I cant do this verses reavers for obvious reasons, and if you ever watched me fighting -any- reaver you'd notice a very different style which is simply in-and-out and cc'ing when colliding and interrupting the animations to delay their skills, to set back cds and reduce incoming dps...very basic. Quiet astonishing you conclude this about me from only two warg fights without even thinking different styles are required for different situations.
    Unless you were drinking heavily, I've engaged your LM far more than those 2 1v1s we had shortly before I left E. If you think I was only getting positional for the second or two you lagged in the second 1v1, you must have been lagging badly enough in the rest of each encounter to just not notice it. That or you don't know the extent of the positional damage "window". there is only one movement style I've seen that just about completely negates the potential for positional damage one equally slowed opponents, and you do were not using it. I certainly did not get near as many positional hits in as I would on a keyturner, but it was a meaningful amount nonetheless.


    ***Warning for pre-school level math***
    Warg attack duration/animations are much faster than LM ones, yes you slow my attack duration by 30%, but I also increase mine by 25%, meaning i'm 5% slower than unbuffed and undebuffed, which is still quite meaningfully faster than an LM, which means the longer we stay in melee range, the more favorable the attack given to taken ratio is for me. The other debuffs you list are completely irrelevant to this discussion. If we play rock 'em sock 'em robots and stand face to face beating on eachother, lets imagine I can do 1k dps. If you debuff my damage with the -30% melee damage, this figure goes down to 700dps. If you debuff my miss chance, by any given amount, my dps will decrease (on average) by the percentage of the miss chance applied. so if this was a 20% miss chance, and I was down to 700 dps, the miss debuff further reduces it to (on average) 560 dps. Total DPS lost = 44%. Now lets imagine we're fighting like idiotic keyturning fighter plans, with a single hit per pass in wide, even sweeps. I can manage 500dps in this scenario, damage debuff takes this to 350, miss debuff takes this to 280dps. Total DPS lost = 44%. (shocking, I know). Your miss and damage debuffs are completely meaningless in a discussion about movement, since (when averaged out over many encounters, in the case of the miss debuff) their effect is static. The attack speed debuff is a valid one to consider, but in the case of a warg, the attack speed/shorter animations still favor the warg over LM. If you cut in and out of melee, both of our dps will be lowered compared to staying in melee, but mine will be more greatly lowered, since I land more shots in a given amount of time, while cutting in and out means we would be trading single hits (other than the occasional skill+eye rake).




    So I went ahead and found a way to test out champ stuff to see if/how it differed from my understanding of auto-attacks and yours. while it wasn't quite how I understood it, and warden attack animations pretty well hide it, just about everything you said regarding the way auto-attacks interact with champion skills is wrong. Feel free to test it yourself, and report back to me with an auto-attack landing inside of brutal or ferocious, 2-handed or dual wielding or swapping, or show any instance where skills queued in continuity interfere with an auto-attack landing between said skills, aside from immediate skills like clobber (there are a very small sample that I found do this, but I believe the benefits of getting those combinations out faster is FAR superior to 'waiting' on an auto-attack). Also, while moving into or out of melee range, regular skills have a longer range than auto-attacks (as I described previously), so even without the range legacy, an auto-attack will 'wait' on a melee skill if the skill is used as you enter melee range. Which means to get an auto-attack preceding an actual skill, you must run through your target, only hitting them as you get to their 'center', at which you won't get a second auto-attack without continuing to face them, whereas 'leading' with an actual skill and following it with a second will in almost every situation land an auto-attack in between, and take the same amount of time. Surely we can agree the pattern of Skill > AA > Skill is greater damage than AA > Skill > AA. While obviously a continuous chain of Skill > AA > Skill > AA is higher damage than Skill > AA > Skill, a pause (with chance for bow attack), Skill > AA > Skill, if facing a competent melee dps opponent, your incoming damage will be increased as well, and when you consider the animation times on skills like ferocious or brutal (which do not get a 'free' auto-attack mid-animation), you will be exposing yourself to added incoming dps while reaping absolutely no benefit yourself, since all that is required to gain the full effect of those long skills is begin the animation in melee, facing the target. More simply, which is better: getting off Swift > AA > Brutal while taking Claws > AA > Rend, or getting off Swift > AA > Brutal > AA while taking Claws > AA > Rend > AA > Claws?

    Enjoy the wall of text everyone.

    P.S. Soleus: We're talking about the benefits of auto-attacks, not immediate skills breaking up regular skill animations. While that basic info might be ok for the champ beginners guide to not being terribad it both isn't relevant to the discussion, and isn't very accurate. Immediate skills break up a regular skill's animation, and play there own (which is usually shorter) instead, but you still have to wait for the timer on the regular skill to complete before firing off another skill after that one. So if Helm's Deep makes ferocious strikes a 12 hit skill with a hilariously long 12 second animation, and you pop clobber immediately after ferocious, you will indeed see clobber break the ferocious animation, but then you will be left picking your nose for 11 seconds doing absolutely no combat animations or attacks, even if you have swift or some other skill queued. The only exception to this is fast skills, which will fill this 'dead time'. This has been extensively tested and I believe may even be a part of the attack durations sticky in the champ forums. Try to stay on topic, or at least be right when you go off on a tangent.

    Edit: my reply was long enough i had a snack before posting and missed a good opportunity to quote you hoping I don't make another wall of text
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  11. #236
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeckyMcGee View Post
    First off....posts aside I love you Orak.
    That being said...did you move toons to BW?
    I left servers to get away from all this BS and yet here are the same old people doing the same old song and dance,blathering on and trolling.Most of you...are from E.
    Can you keep your garbage on E forums.You guys did a fine job of making E a toxic environment people no longer wanted to be around.And if not....will you please tell me what server,forums or otherwise none of you will be visiting so I can go there?
    Thanks.
    I hate you all.Especially,Evilspinnre.
    Is this BS? Dont think so, Deso gets trolled, people ask for the Sol to link something impressive, people talk about Champs, thats about it. Its not dramatic to me, and if it wasnt for my interest in wanting to see more about Sol, I wouldnt post anymore. Deso brings up a counter to bow AA, we talk about it, whats the problem? Isi isnt trolling, he replies with his opinion and findings. Is the chaotic BS?

    Theres nothing wrong with people talking, and even if I didnt have a toon on BW, that doesnt prevent me from posting anymore then the next. Unlike others, I rarely gate crash, and if I do its for a real reason as noted above. I also got angry at that troll for provoking any of my past into another servers thread, its extremely rude for others. Im also wanted to actually check if im wrong about this aa option, throwing this topic out there, im still wondering what different this option has being on instead of off.

    P.S: Pretty funny, Boomy is basically telling me to #### off !
    Last edited by lionoil; Nov 02 2013 at 10:56 PM.

  12. #237
    Quote Originally Posted by Thorandril View Post
    That is indeed correct, having had a few discussions with Illy on the matter there are benefits for the option to be toggled on and off. I personally prefer it to be off, because of the aforementioned reason.

    Having weighed benefits for/against it, I'm not entirely sure why people choose to toggle it on still.
    I always enable the miss chance while moving ranged auto attack option rather. Otherwise, I would become rooted while the ranged auto-attack animation procs.

    I toggle auto attacks on/off in between immediate and fast skills. I prefer the immediate skills to cut through the longer animations of strike skills than auto attacks, and this enabled smoother skill chains centered around Merciful Strike (I always trait Bountiful Mercy for the 50% morale threshold).

    I also equip the 'Moor Cowbell instead of the bow. Why? As much as I admire Christopher Walken, I prefer the melee auto attack DPS to the minor passive stat gain from the equipped bow (crit/mastery or crit def/mitigation).

    Unless your target remains stationary, or your timing is perfect (mine is not), then I noticed a drop in DPS from guaranteed miss ranged auto-attacks as I dart into/out from melee range.
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  13. #238
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    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    Unless you were drinking heavily, I've engaged your LM far more than those 2 1v1s we had shortly before I left E.
    Na serious, only remember 2. But considering how long ive fought wargs, if you see me giving you my back, im probably still rust and not playing to my own expectations.


    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    ***Warning for pre-school level math***
    unbuffed and undebuffed, which is still quite meaningfully faster than an LM
    Im stopping you there. It doesnt matter if your warg hits faster then me or not, and its very bad if your thinking my speed vs your speed is important, unless its a mirror match up. A burg hits faster then a champ, but for a hypothetical example a slow seeking Morse & 5 pip merc kills him. Those are slow skills, and he wins bc the burg is softer. So I dont care if your attacks are fast, I only care that I can lower your effective dps by various means, and one is lowering your attack duration by -30%. And since I can drop decent dps with auto attacks on a shadow warg, the close combat style favors me more then any other style. Staff is a 2h weapon + 1h weapon, so my AA vs your warg is decent dps for me.

    This convo boils down to: Orak why are you using a full melee style instead of semi kiting? Thats it. I know how to abuse different styles, and you were trying to tell me im either oblivious or unaware of the differences. EITHER OR your preaching to the choir.

    @YOUR OTHER WALL OF TEXT@

    Go read what Isi noted, also ready my reply to Zapdos, and test that also. If you think im wrong on a specific area, I might have already covered it.

  14. #239
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    Quote Originally Posted by lionoil View Post
    Dude, im not actually going to read something that long from you, no offence if you actually read what I write on the forums, thats your problem. But im not going to read something from a blatant two-faced troll.
    Looks to me as if you read what I posted



    Quote Originally Posted by lionoil View Post
    Ps: Oh bro umad? That looked like it took alot of work to write, hope your not actually giving me MORE attention? Because your really good at giving it to me.
    Is this how you troll lmao? Stay madcuzbad brah

    Brandywine: Aurn r13 Guardian / Eurn r10 Reaver, Eyebrowjoe r9 Blackarrow, Zoulapi r9 Warg, Aurney r7 Warleader
    Elendilmir: Ellada r6 Guardian / Elgreco r10 Reaver, Eurn r6 Blackarrow, Yurn r6 Warg
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  15. #240
    Quote Originally Posted by lionoil View Post
    Na serious, only remember 2. But considering how long ive fought wargs, if you see me giving you my back, im probably still rust and not playing to my own expectations.




    Im stopping you there. It doesnt matter if your warg hits faster then me or not, and its very bad if your thinking my speed vs your speed is important, unless its a mirror match up. A burg hits faster then a champ, but for a hypothetical example a slow seeking Morse & 5 pip merc kills him. Those are slow skills, and he wins bc the burg is softer. So I dont care if your attacks are fast, I only care that I can lower your effective dps by various means, and one is lowering your attack duration by -30%. And since I can drop decent dps with auto attacks on a shadow warg, the close combat style favors me more then any other style. Staff is a 2h weapon + 1h weapon, so my AA vs your warg is decent dps for me.

    This convo boils down to: Orak why are you using a full melee style instead of semi kiting? Thats it. I know how to abuse different styles, and you were trying to tell me im either oblivious or unaware of the differences. EITHER OR your preaching to the choir.

    @YOUR OTHER WALL OF TEXT@

    Go read what Isi noted, also ready my reply to Zapdos, and test that also. If you think im wrong on a specific area, I might have already covered it.
    yes, I wrote my reply before making it to this page of the convo, I didn't check to see that others had already established what I pointed out, so the first half of it is things others have already stated. I would still read through the second half of that stuff, as I think its worthwhile in explaining why you are basically choosing to forgo the small damage increase of ranged auto-attacks for more melee auto-attacks only when you are slow on actual skill executions, and why when executing a longer animation skill than what your opponent has access to, you have a worse damage given to taken ratio if you stay in melee range than if you left it.

    You still are missing my primary point in all this in bringing up the LM vs warg, which relates to attack speeds and melee range, this will be my last try. 1 player is using a skill that takes 10 seconds to execute against another who is using a skill with a 1 second execution. Both skills must play in their entirety. Both skill animations will start the moment they are selected, and both require the player to be in the same range. Niether player is required to stay in range once the animation starts to receive full benefits. Why would the player using the 10 second skill ever want to stay in range of the player using a 1 second skill after the .1 second it takes to start the skill, or come close to that player again until after their 10 second animation is over? In this extreme example, if both players only get into melee for .1 seconds every 10 seconds, they will always hit eachother with the same number of skills. If they stay continuously in range of eachother, the player with 1 second skill animations will land 10 times as many attacks as their opponent. Obviously warg vs LM attack durations are not 10x shorter, but even if they are only 1s vs 0.9s, that is still an extra attack gained every 10 seconds over the LM, where a different movement pattern would preclude any advantage at all.

    Remorseless is a relatively short animation by champ strike skill standards and Merciful is a 'fast' skill, so thats a bit of a bad example compared to more normal rotations. Also, Remorseless is only worth it with a 2-hander if seeking is available (or so I'm told). If we compared a more 'meat and potatoes' champ rotation like WA > Swift > Brutal (I dunno which works better between leading with wild or swift, tbh), to a Burg who potentially gets about 5 hits off in that time frame if the champ stays in melee during the brutal animation (punny), the burg may indeed take more damage than the champ since they are 'softer', but the damage margin between the two is closer in that scenario than if the champ did WA > Swift > Brutal and moved out of melee, probably the burg only gets 4 attacks off. If the champ is able to move in and away perfectly for each of the three skills, each player potentially only gets off 3 skills. Maybe the burg does take more damage in each encounter, but the more the champ stays in range while using slower attacks, the closer the gap in damage taken between the two gets.

    Edit: this threat is moving too fast for me...
    Quote Originally Posted by CodeofMisconduct View Post
    Unless your target remains stationary, or your timing is perfect (mine is not), then I noticed a drop in DPS from guaranteed miss ranged auto-attacks as I dart into/out from melee range.
    I'd be interested to hear your comment on what I wrote in my previous reply. To flesh my point out from the wall-o-text: In my playing around with a champ (movement auto-attack feature on or off) hitting a skill as you enter range forces the auto-attack to wait till the skill finishes. If you hit said skill asap, it ALWAYS hits before the melee auto-attack, since auto-attack range is shorter than the range on any skill I'm aware of. Because of this, even if your bow put auto-attack on 'cooldown', it will be off cooldown by the time you finish whatever skill you used as you entered melee, so you haven't actually 'lost' a melee auto-attack, merely added a low chance for an additional ranged source of damage. Or is the timing requirement you are referring to that of getting off a skill as you enter melee and before AA fires? If so, button mashing what skill you want has a 95% effectiveness rate in my experience.
    Last edited by spelunker; Nov 02 2013 at 11:36 PM.
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  16. #241

  17. #242
    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    Or is the timing requirement you are referring to that of getting off a skill as you enter melee and before AA fires? If so, button mashing what skill you want has a 95% effectiveness rate in my experience.
    Yes. Sometimes I attempt to queue the next skill in my rotation between 4.2 and 3.5m too soon, which interrupts the rhythm. Button mashing does work well, however my habits lead me to key once and then move on. This may sound odd, but I play much better to a soundtrack. My eyes tend to fixate on one part of the screen, and I prefer to look at the Creep rather than skill timers. I therefore rely on intuitive memory (enhanced by a good beat) to time my attacks. Sometimes, when out of sequence, you will see me move and strafe to the side/behind an opponent instead of around and through.

    Edit: One of my favorite tracks...



    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddyfence View Post
    You stay toe-to-toe, while mouse-turning around and through your opponents, without leaving melee range. Therefore, ranged auto attacks never proc. You do this well. Congrats?
    Last edited by CodeofMisconduct; Nov 03 2013 at 12:20 AM.
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  18. #243
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    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    yes, I wrote my reply before making it to this page of the convo, I didn't check to see that others had already established what I pointed out, so the first half of it is things others have already stated. I would still read through the second half of that stuff, as I think its worthwhile in explaining why you are basically choosing to forgo the small damage increase of ranged auto-attacks for more melee auto-attacks only when you are slow on actual skill executions, and why when executing a longer animation skill than what your opponent has access to, you have a worse damage given to taken ratio if you stay in melee range than if you left it.
    Roll a champ, get a bow, pretend your in a 1v1. Im not actually going to argue with you unless we want to argue everything obvious as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    @LM v Warg
    Problem im having replying to you, is its very hard to direct you back to initial points which started this diversion. We've gone from Champs bow aa option, to aa in general, to my LMs aa, and my LMs vs warg. You accuse me of not even understand what im talking about bc of your personal experience fighting me on your warg. Do you know various factors influences someones decision not to choose the most beneficial option per situation? Considering my LM utterly fails to utilize the -most- beneficial options because of my personal choice, then why is it so hard for you to think maybe I also do various different things per situation which isnt the most beneficial?
    Then instead of you actually looking at my LMs fighting a reaver using a different style, you assume I fight every foe exactly the same, thats an assumption. But if you simply looked at my fights verses reavers where I really need to change my approach, you'd actually -see- it.
    Lastly, have you ever seen me spam kite a warg from 30m away using BE? Nope, so does that mean I dont know how to?


    Want to find out about Champ+bow+aa? Since your not listening or understand, go try it for yourself and take into consideration what ive said. When someone says: I personally prefer it to be off, because of the aforementioned reason (my reason im assuming due to quote). Having weighed benefits for/against it, I'm not entirely sure why people choose to toggle it on still.

    If your not going to listen to me, at least read that. When we go back to the original post, you were arguing against someone questioning the constant use the bows aa projing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddyfence View Post
    I was actually watching those fights, you were fighting point blank. You goto all that effort, yet the below example is easy enough for even you to understand.

    Simplistic example: You semi kite off, turn around and your foe is 7m away from you so decide to run and use brutal, but as you are the bow aa triggers (miss) then you get within melee range and drop a pure brutal without any initial aa due to the bow.
    Lets say dust is up, 2/3 brutal miss. You burn 3 pips and do hardly any dps.
    OPTION OFF: aa hits and 2/3 of brutal miss but you still dropped more dps then previously. DERPY DERP. If you have more chances to hit = more dps and more chances to bypass reavers dust and other factors such as WL BPE. Even if the melee aa missed bc of dust, at least you had a higher chance of hitting.

    Rinse and repeat and you'll constantly be burning free dps for some unknown reason, but the other option by default drops more dps. Given how some players constantly use this style, it only increases the amount of burnt attacks, and this has been around since launch? Why are people still doing it?

    Whats hilarious is how something so tiny and simply, is so hard to comprehend and can drag on for pages.
    Last edited by lionoil; Nov 03 2013 at 12:34 AM.

  19. #244
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    Quote Originally Posted by lionoil View Post
    P.S: Pretty funny, Boomy is basically telling me to #### off !
    Ocrack's only friend on E has abandoned him.


  20. #245
    Quote Originally Posted by lionoil View Post
    Roll a champ, get a bow, pretend your in a 1v1. Im not actually going to argue with you unless we want to argue everything obvious as well.
    Thats exactly what I did, and didn't 'pretend' I was in a 1v1, for whatever its worth.
    Whats hilarious is how something so tiny and simply, is so hard to comprehend and can drag on for pages.
    and with that, I'm done. I've laid out my point, which you are not going to agree with no matter how I lay it out, and vice versa.


    @Thot/Illy: Thanks for the input and well understood (and I agree on the pvp with music, its one of the big reasons I haven't gotten to know people in vent/TS as well as I should like to have in my various kins and factions). It is a of a different experience on a class where cooldown timers are more easily observed (warden) as well.
    [center][img]http://i58.tinypic.com/2wrm5ja_th.jpg[/img][/center]
    [center]Let our actions speak for themselves. Jinjaah has been pouring over every post in the Bullroarer forum. Please keep in mind that any experiences with previous LOTRO teams are not reflective of the current team, give us a chance[/center]

  21. #246
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    8,317
    Quote Originally Posted by CodeofMisconduct View Post
    I always enable the miss chance while moving ranged auto attack option rather. Otherwise, I would become rooted while the ranged auto-attack animation procs.

    I toggle auto attacks on/off in between immediate and fast skills. I prefer the immediate skills to cut through the longer animations of strike skills than auto attacks, and this enabled smoother skill chains centered around Merciful Strike (I always trait Bountiful Mercy for the 50% morale threshold).

    I also equip the 'Moor Cowbell instead of the bow. Why? As much as I admire Christopher Walken, I prefer the melee auto attack DPS to the minor passive stat gain from the equipped bow (crit/mastery or crit def/mitigation).

    Unless your target remains stationary, or your timing is perfect (mine is not), then I noticed a drop in DPS from guaranteed miss ranged auto-attacks as I dart into/out from melee range.
    Ah, I understand finally. I've never had an issue with that as I don't really ever stand still but I recall a few instances (precious few) where it rooted me. I'll just pretend you didn't say anything and the christopher walken reason is the legitimate one as I too, am a fan of blue oyster cult.
    There may come a time for valor without renown, for those without swords may surely still die upon them.


  22. #247
    This thread now seems to belong to the E-gos rather than the Brandywhiners. Colonization successful.
    [CENTER][I][SIZE=1](D)[/SIZE][/I][SIZE=3]after thought criminal element[/SIZE]
    [B][I][U]time explained:[/U][/I][/B] [URL]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3jjZdyH6io[/URL]
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  23. #248
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    622
    Back! Back you fiends! Away with you!


  24. #249
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    Greece - Region of Macedonia
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    Quote Originally Posted by lionoil View Post
    I was actually watching those fights, you were fighting point blank. You goto all that effort, yet the below example is easy enough for even you to understand SIR.

    Simplistic example: You semi kite off, turn around and your foe is 7m away from you so decide to run and use brutal, but as you are the bow aa triggers (miss) then you get within melee range and drop a pure brutal without any initial aa due to the bow.
    Lets say dust is up, 2/3 brutal miss. You burn 3 pips and do hardly any dps.
    OPTION OFF: aa hits and 2/3 miss but you still dropped more dps then previously. DERPY DERP. If you have more chances to hit = better. Even if the melee aa missed bc of dust, at least you had a higher chance of hitting.

    Rinse and repeat and you'll constantly be burning free dps for some unknown reason, but the other option by default drops more dps. Given how some players constantly use this style, it only increases the amount of burnt attacks, and this has been around since launch? Why are people still doing it?

    Whats hilarious is how something so tiny and simply, is so hard to comprehend and can drag on for pages.
    This is the stupidest thing you said so far.

    First of all I fully agree with all that Deso said to you.

    Second when you adress your superiors you say SIR.

    Third, on the AA topic now. What you' re saying is 100% dumb. You don't have to turn AAs off in order to control them. I play a guardian and my attack duration blows. I can only reduce it down to -10% with relics/class trait, although I learned long time ago how to not derp miss AAs with my bow cuz i'm kiting off a long animation OR more importantly have my AAs LOSed cuz my opponent outmoved me. Let me go ahead and use your 'simplistic' example.

    OPTION OFF #2: You semi kite, run 7m away. You turn around, stop moving for a milisecond, get a bow AA off and then approach for BA therefore getting a bow AA off without delaying AAs cuz you deactivated them thus increasing your overall damage.

    Now this example ofc is not even close to realistic cuz a good turner won't allow you to get a 7m distance off him. In any case, what I stated is neither hard to do nor does it take years of research to figure out and practise on. You' re so totally overthinking the whole thing. It's simple, all it takes is knowledge of the class (aka time spent on) and more specifically knowing when your skill animations end and when AAs will trigger. Bow auto-attacks don't hinder you, it's an extra helpful tool you have in your pocecion. Deactivating AAs is an unecessary waste with a very few exceptions/strats, yours excluded.

    To sum up. It's not hard to time Auto Attacks. It's better if you' re keeping an eye on them but for the most part you have more important things to worry about than missing 1 or 2 (worst case scenario) auto-attacks. To me it simply seems that your lack of ability is what makes you look into secondary things thinking that if you get them down it will improve your performance. On top of that from fighting you and seeing the way you roll it gives me the impression that such non-important things make you feel accomplished. You' re not the only one that has figured them out and it doesn't make you better if you land a couple more auto-attacks but lose the fight cuz you payed too much attention to it.

    Simply put Orak not only are you bad, you' re also a fool.

    Edit: As for saying that kid was fighting point blank I'm pretty sure the screenshots he linked speak for themselves.

    Edit #2: I forgot to mention something.

    Timing AAs is harder to do on a champ over a guard and harder on a guard over a captain (Talking heavies only). There are 4 factors that affect this. 1) Attack Duration, 2) Length of skill rotation 3) Number of skills used 4) melee range and bow

    1) Champs have -30% Atk dur. 25% from flurry (if traited) and 5% from the relics. Captains have -5% from relics and -20% if war cry is activated. Guards have -10% from relics and class trait. Obviously the faster your atk duration is, the faster your auto-attacks fire and thefore the harder to control. Thus the order of difficulty when it comes to maintaining your AAs according to atk duration only is: Champ > Captain > Guard.

    2) Length of skill rotation is determined by a) length of skill animation b) number of fast/immediate skills

    a)Champ has the shortest animations among the 3 heavy classes followed by captain and finally guard.

    b) -Guard has the most fast skills. Champs have Merciful and captains Shadow's Lament. Note: I'm talking about DPS skills only.
    -Champ has the most immediate skills on a short cooldown: Clobber/Hedge/Battle Frenzy. Guard and captain have only kick/stamp on either a 1m or 30s CD whether you re using legacy or not. Suppose hedge goes for glory but anyway i' ll put it there.

    In any case: rotation wise champs have the fastest one followed by guards and then captains. So according to #2 factor it's harder to maintain your auto-attacks on champ over guard over captain

    3) Number of skills used which also translates into number of hotkeyes you have to press. Your UI setup and gaming equipment plays a big role in this. Gaming Keyboards and/or Mice make your life easier cuz they supply you with a bigger number of more accessible hotkeyes. The less skills you use or the less hotkeyes you press the easier it is for you to control your movement and therefore your AAs. Guards have the most skills in their rotation followed by champs and then captains.

    4) Champ and Guard have 4.2m range (if you choose to slot the legacy) while captain has 2.5m. This means that captains are within AA range every time they use a skill while on guard/champ you have to keep an eye on it. Also not having a bow makes it easier for captains. So Captain >Champ-Guard

    Summing this up. The way I see it the easiest class to control AAs on is captain, followed by guard and then champ.
    Last edited by Therealmvp; Nov 03 2013 at 04:00 AM.
    Brandywine: Aurn r13 Guardian / Eurn r10 Reaver, Eyebrowjoe r9 Blackarrow, Zoulapi r9 Warg, Aurney r7 Warleader
    Elendilmir: Ellada r6 Guardian / Elgreco r10 Reaver, Eurn r6 Blackarrow, Yurn r6 Warg
    [b]Acta Non Verba / Stainless[/b]

  25. #250
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Melbourne
    Posts
    572
    Wow! So many replies to each other and so quickly too! Clearly Turbines forums are less laggy than their servers! Amazing!

    Also I refuse to read any of the previous posts or contribute to this in any way.

    P.S: Boom; No. :P
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