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  1. #1
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    Sep 2013
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    Best craft for Dwarf Champion?

    What is the best craft to choose for a Dwarf Champion? I'd like to choose something that would allow me to make a good amount of gold. I was going to choose Explorer and try and sell what I find at auction but it said its good for light or medium armor and I think as a Champion I will want heavy armor (I just got the passive skill 'Heavy Armor'). I am level 20 right now.

    What craft is best to make the most gold?

  2. #2
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    Whenever anyone asks about Crafting I don't know how much they know, so I'll start w/ the basics on the theory that even if you know, someone else won't, and you can just skip down.

    First, the in-game terminology is confusing - A vocation is a set of three crafting professions..."* - bleh. No one uses those terms except on the wiki. For this conversation, you choose one of the 7 Craft options (or choices) for your alt and that choice gives you 3 fixed Craft Skills - better.

    (* http://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/Vocation )

    Of the 3 Skills that come with a Craft choice, two come as a matched pair - one skill is Gather-type and one skill is a matched Production-type skill. With the gather-skill you gather the raw materials from the game world and process them into useful resources for the production skill, and with that production skill you create useful items for your Character. (The third is a mis-match of one or the other - more on that later.)

    The important part is that any one Skill choice makes an alt "self-sufficient" in ONE AND ONLY ONE CRAFT. For example, if you choose the Armourer Craft (aka Vocation), you get the Prospector and Metalsmith skills (aka Professions) which allow you to gather Ores and make metal Ingots that your Metalsmith skill then turns into armour and etc. You also get the Tailor skill - but without the Explorer skill you have no way to turn raw Hides into Leather, so you have to rely on another alt of your own, or someone else, or the Auction House or /Trade channel to obtain the necessary Leather - so Tailor is not self-sufficient in that trio of skills.

    (If you wanted to be self-sufficient as Tailor, take the Explorer choice - Tailor + Forester, plus Prospector - not that you can use the Ores or Gems, but you have it.)

    So - one choice = 1 Craft for final production.


    However, IF you were willing to run 2 alts, and you choose wisely, you can match 2 Craft choices and have those 2 alts be, together, self-suffienct in 3 or even 4 Crafts.

    There are several good pairs of Craft choices (and a couple not-so-good) - so you first have to decide if you're willing to run an alt to get 2 more Crafts, or just want 1 alt and one Craft (possibly with a second by working w/ another player and/or spending money).

    SO - the "best" choice varies, depending if you're talking the best single Craft, or the best matched "pair" of Craft choices.


    NOW - that said (and to (finally) address your question), the "best" (single) production Craft for your alt imo is, hands down, Metalsmith, for Armour and a Shield. You need 6 slots of armour, and armour is expensive to buy WHEN you can find it. FAR easier to buy or commission a good weapon every several/few levels than for 6 pieces of armour and a Shield. (Plus metalsmithrs make bonus Crafting tools - nice. And some other stuff.)

    Metalsmith skill is part of only 1 Craft choice, Armourer - Metalsmith + Prospector, plus Tailor.* ( http://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/Voca..._each_Vocation )

    Otoh, the best "money-maker" is, imo, Historian. Those materials sell for $$$ on the Auction House. (But any materials sell for good prices (just not THAT good!), so you're going to be fine no matter what you choose. Money is tough until Level 25 or so - then it starts raining down.)


    * Now, IF you want to go the "matched pair of crafter alts" route, you want the match to have the Forester skill to turn all your raw Hides into Leather for the Metalsmith's Tailor skill - then you can make Cloaks (your 7th armour slot) and also light/medium armour (for that other alt?).

    The Forester skill is found in 2 diff Craft choices - (again, http://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/Voca..._each_Vocation )

    o Explorer - Tailor + Forester, plus Prospector - but that duplicates 2 skills you already have, so no...*
    o Woodsmanr - Woodcrafter + Forester, plus Farmer - so you can make Spears and Wooden weapons (inc. Bows and Javelins), and your Leather, and grow some Pipeweed (even if you don't have a Cook to make consumable foods)

    Armourer (& Woodsman for alt #2) - that's my recommendation.

    (* Many players start as Explorers, make their own light/medium armour (inc. those that will use Heavy Armour at level 15 or 20), and then switch to Armourer once they have a source for Leather. The switch only loses experience for the Forester skill, and keeps the Tailor and Prospector advancement. ymmv, esp if you're already able to use heavy armour.)
    Last edited by C-Hound; Oct 20 2013 at 10:03 PM.

  3. #3
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    Or, if you have two heavy armour using classes, I'd say Armourer + Historian. You could make both armour and weapons, as Historian includes Weaponsmith, and potions & scrolls for improved performance. But if you had a second character who is a medium or light armour user, I'd also say Armourer + Woodsman.

  4. #4
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    OP - unless you level at a deliberately slow pace or use the xp-disabling item, then it's fair to say that you will out-level what you can craft for yourself. This is because the distribution of resources and materials is weighted to be slightly behind the levelling areas. This happens across all level bands but gets worse at tiers 3, 4 and 5 yet oddly the problem is resolved by tiers 7 and 8.

    The exceptions are farming and cooking - because they can be levelled in isolation of the "outside world" so to speak.

    So my advice would be to stick with explorer and collect mats. Then if the crafting bug starts to bite then roll a crafting alt for the professions of your choice.

    Even with the mats collected, you may find that if you join a kin there will be others who can turn your mats into the stuff you need.
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  5. #5
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    If you want to make money, then explorer is probably the best option. Crafted stuff doesn't really sell good enough, with some exceptions at max tier, so you'll have to rely on gathering materials for selling. And only the explorer has two gathering professions (farming doesn't really count as gathering professions IMO), while all others need to use their collected materials to improve their production skill, and then buy some for their other production skill.

    But if you want to actually craft stuff to use for yourself, then explorer is a poor choice as you've noticed. You'd probably want to pick armourer, armsman or tinkerer instead, with the last likely being the most profitable of the three later on (everyone can use 7 pieces of jewellry, only 3 classes can use heavy armor and characters can use at most 2 weapons).
    Used to play: 85 Champ / Captain / Runekeeper / Guardian, Guild Master of everything but cooking.
    Playing now: Hellcat / King Tiger / GW Panther / IS / KV-5 / M4 Sherman and more

  6. #6
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    The Armourer + Historian pair is indeed another solid choice if both your alts are heavy-armour wearers, giving you the heavy armour + shields + bonus crafting tools, while the Armourer's Propsector skill feeds weaponsmith*, and Scholar takes care of itself (it is unique as both a Gather and Production skill). You can ignore Tailor and Cook for now, or find a source for Leather and foods.

    (* Different classes are restricting to using different weapons, BUT all one-handed crafted weapons of the same level do the same damage, both metal and wooden ones, no damage difference between them. Same with all two-handed weapons, and all ranged weapons, of the same level, equal damage to all other weapons within their categories.)

    Quote Originally Posted by BangoTwinkletoes View Post
    OP - unless you level at a deliberately slow pace or use the xp-disabling item, then it's fair to say that you will out-level what you can craft for yourself...
    Sorry, this is patently untrue.

    You need to invest some time into Crafting to make it work - both to gather materials* and then to "practice" the Craft to get crafting xp to progress to the next proficiency. If you put in that time, then it works fine. If all you do is follow the quests and "see how it all works out", or quest way over-level and decline to interact with areas designed to challenge your current level, then not so much.

    (* with the exception of Hides for Leather, which drop from any/all animals you kill.)

    While it is true that "...the distribution of resources and materials is weighted to be slightly behind the leveling areas..." (which is to say, you won't find the better materials until after you need them), there is nothing to prevent you from dedicating a gaming session to, very cautiously, traveling to those higher-level areas for the sole purpose of gathering materials. It's easy, you just stay on the roads, keep your eyes open, avoid the purple* monsters, and be willing to RUN at the drop of a hat.

    (* Monsters are color-coded (in their floating name) relative to your character's level - the "cooler" colors are lower level than your alt, at-level are white, and higher level are (in ascending order) yellow, orange, red and purple. A well equipped character can often take out a red monster - purple is unpredictably dangerous and usually quite lethal. http://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/Level )


    Quote Originally Posted by Grimdi View Post
    If you want to make money, then explorer is probably the best option...
    ...o you'll have to rely on gathering materials for selling. And only the explorer has two gathering professions... while all others need to use their collected materials to improve their production skill, and then buy some for their other production skill.
    Again, apologies, but I have to disagree with this as an absolute - it all depends on how you harvest your resources.

    More, while it's true that Explorer can farm both Wood and Ore nodes, there are plenty of both to find as you run around - it takes the same time to harvest either type, so no great advantage there unless you are focused solely on gathering materials to sell and want twice the density so you don't have to run as far (and if so, then see below re Scholar Materials).

    It's true that "Crafted stuff doesn't really sell..." (except by commission), so it's the raw materials that are the money makers. And the raw (and processed*) materials that sell are (in no particular order)
    • o raw Hides** (and Leather)
      o Ores and Gems (and metal Ingots***)
      o Wooden Logs (and Planks)
      o Scholar materials (no "processed" equiv, just final products that tend to not sell well)

      (* In my experience (Auction House and /Trade channel economies may vary from server to server), processed raw materials actually often sell for less than the raw material equivalent. You'd think time invested would give "value added", but, for a couple reasons, that's not always how it works here.)
      (** Everyone gets Hides as they kill animals, so everyone can sell hides. No specific Crafting skill is necessary there, anyone/everyone does it.)
      (*** The processed version of Gems is Processed Gems, but as a rule they do not sell reliably.)

    Of those, Scholar materials are BY FAR the most expensive, some demanding truly jaw dropping prices per unit, many times that per unit of equivalent-tier hides, ores or logs. And if it's a question of "time spend harvesting", if you are willing to dedicate a detour to the scholar materials, the /per harvest value is FAR more than that for mundane materials.

    However, it's also true that, while you stumble across ore and wood nodes all the time, and hides just drop into your inventory as you kill any animals, you have to actively seek out Scholar nodes - they are found only in ruins, and then tend to be found only one-at-a-time, and are slow(ish) to respawn. So you have to actively seek Scholar materials (and that's what makes them so valuable!). But there are areas off the beaten track where you can farm Scholar Materials - it is doable, it just takes a decision to go and do it.

    So - if you want stuff that you stumble across while questing (and you - or the people you are questing with - don't mind stopping every minute), go Explorer. But, if you prefer not to interrupt your questing every couple minutes to stop and mine/chop, and you don't mind spending some dedicated time harvesting big-bucks Scholar materials, that's a great way to go as well.

    IF money is all you're worried about - and, again, I suggest you don't worry too much about it. It will come.


    NOTE: All this largely relies on you having access to the Auction House. You can (try to) sell stuff on the /Trade channel (best bet is in Bree-Town on weekends), but your customer base is MUCH smaller and it takes time away from the game to wait around until you find a buyer. The AH is the way to make money. GL!

  7. #7
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    I would definitely NOT recommend historian for your first character if it's a champ (as scholars are of very limited use for that class).
    True, the materials sell for very high prices, but mostly that's because they are a pain to collect especially on the early tiers, as the number of nodes is very limited. And you will need to consume those mats to get access to the higher tiers, so early on you won't make money from it, unless you really want to spend a lot of time just farming nodes.
    Later in the game (around level 40) you get lots of scholar mats from mob drops anyway, probably more than from node harvesting (I've sold tons of T4+ scholar mats from that without harvesting a single node while feeding my low-level scholar). You can't get usable quantities of ore/wood that way however.
    Also without alts the weaponsmith profession of a historian would require you to buy ingots, making this even less profitable, and the farmer profession doesn't really make money in any way.

    Historian can be a very nice and profitable choice once you've mastered tier 3, but up to that point it's pretty rough. Also it's less useful for champs compared to hunters, wardens, ministrels or loremasters (first two want the fire/light oils and other consumables, last two the legendary items).
    Used to play: 85 Champ / Captain / Runekeeper / Guardian, Guild Master of everything but cooking.
    Playing now: Hellcat / King Tiger / GW Panther / IS / KV-5 / M4 Sherman and more

  8. #8
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    Jan 2011
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimdi View Post
    I would definitely NOT recommend historian for your first character if it's a champ (as scholars are of very limited use for that class). [...] it's less useful for champs compared to hunters, wardens, ministrels or loremasters (first two want the fire/light oils and other consumables, last two the legendary items).
    I don't know about that -- Fervour potions are, hands down, the single most-requested class consumable mentioned in GLFF on my server. No one ever asks for minstrel sheetmusic or loremaster parables or guardian tactics; requests for bow chants or fire/light oils are rare. But PvMP Champions are asking for Fervour potions every day.

    I think Historian isn't the best first craft for a new player, but that's due to the frustrating scarcity of lower-tier craft materials for scholar. Every class can use scholar-made items, so the notion that Champions can't be Scholars is ridiculous.


    To the OP: One way to make levelling a Historian easier is to actually make it an Armsman first. Level up the Armsman's prospecting and use the ingots to advance Weaponsmithing. (Don't waste time with woodworking in this scenario.) When you get to higher levels and have built up a nice stockpile of ingots (or gold to buy ores, or another character to collect ores), switch vocations to Historian. You'll keep all experience and recipes learned in Weaponsmithing, and can start working on scholar with materials dropped by mobs while you were questing.

    On the other hand, if you decide to try out different classes and get to like the crafting system, you can cover all crafts with just 4 characters: 1 Historian, 1 Tinker, 1 Armoursmith, and 1 Woodsman. The Tinker/Armoursmith can supply ingots to the Historian for weaponsmithing; the Woodsman can supply hides to the Armoursmith for tailoring; and the Woodsman/Historian can supply crops to the Tinker for cooking.
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  9. #9
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    Details, details...

    Quote Originally Posted by C-Hound View Post
    The Armourer + Historian pair is indeed another solid choice if both your alts are heavy-armour wearers, giving you the heavy armour + shields + bonus crafting tools, while the Armourer's Propsector skill feeds weaponsmith*, and Scholar takes care of itself (it is unique as both a Gather and Production skill). You can ignore Tailor and Cook for now, or find a source for Leather and foods.
    Note that the armourer's former fairly large bonus in making tools is fairly obsoleted. I highly recommend using your bounder's bounty (I think they are still dropping) to buy a universal toolkit. It might be obsoleted later, but not until you are a *much* higher level. (I don't think it has a minimum level. Even if it does, it is still cheap enough to grab for later. Note that it is also bound on acquire so each character needs to buy them separately (bounties are shared across accounts [I think]).

    Quote Originally Posted by C-Hound View Post
    You need to invest some time into Crafting to make it work - both to gather materials* and then to "practice" the Craft to get crafting xp to progress to the next proficiency. If you put in that time, then it works fine. If all you do is follow the quests and "see how it all works out", or quest way over-level and decline to interact with areas designed to challenge your current level, then not so much.

    (* with the exception of Hides for Leather, which drop from any/all animals you kill.)
    I'm guessing that either you guys are talking past each other, or C-Hound makes a higher commitment to crafting than most. When crafting, you make an item. With practice you can get "critical successes*". Note you have to practice at least to the level needed to start getting critical successes to advance to the next higher level of gear (and at some point you will need to fully master such items to allow further progress). The catch is that if you are simply questing, you will never gather enough items to get critical successes at your level. Due to the nature of MMO player behavior, players often simply assume that "crit-crafted" (i.e. those made with critical successes) are the only stuff you should ever wear. In practice, at low levels simply any crafted goods are so superior to drops/quest rewards that players should make anything they can.

    [*the universal toolkit mentioned above is great for its ability to let players crit items. In fact it is so great that I suspect you will be able to pick basic crit-crafted items (i.e. stuff made with a single mat, the cheapest way to increase crafting level) for next to nothing on the auction house]

    If you want to gather enough to wear only items you crit-crafted for yourself, expect to spend a bit of time farming areas a bit high level for you to quest in. If you only want to pick up mats as you go along, normal items will do well for quite awhile (if you start having to run away a lot you might want to rethink your item strategy).

    Quote Originally Posted by C-Hound View Post
    While it is true that "...the distribution of resources and materials is weighted to be slightly behind the leveling areas..." (which is to say, you won't find the better materials until after you need them), there is nothing to prevent you from dedicating a gaming session to, very cautiously, traveling to those higher-level areas for the sole purpose of gathering materials. It's easy, you just stay on the roads, keep your eyes open, avoid the purple* monsters, and be willing to RUN at the drop of a hat.

    (* Monsters are color-coded (in their floating name) relative to your character's level - the "cooler" colors are lower level than your alt, at-level are white, and higher level are (in ascending order) yellow, orange, red and purple. A well equipped character can often take out a red monster - purple is unpredictably dangerous and usually quite lethal. http://lotro-wiki.com/index.php/Level )
    You can run around in surprisingly dangerous areas (to the point that the local squirrel equivalents can kill you, fortunately they don't agro on you until the red-zones). Been there, done that: don't recommend it at all (you can make enough trophies to insta-level yourself to guildmaster once you buy VIP, but expect it to take months of boring harvesting. There are also limits to how far you can gather mats above level (the name of the zone turns red, then *everything* agros on you and gathering time is increased by a factor of 10).

    Quote Originally Posted by C-Hound View Post
    NOTE: All this largely relies on you having access to the Auction House. You can (try to) sell stuff on the /Trade channel (best bet is in Bree-Town on weekends), but your customer base is MUCH smaller and it takes time away from the game to wait around until you find a buyer. The AH is the way to make money. GL!
    I'm pretty sure that the lowest level of auction-house access was the only thing I bought with the rain of TP for a long time. It seemed a good value (even if I went premium a little while later and got another low amount of AH access). I doubt you will have to worry too much if you only buy the first rung of AH access.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by banjolier View Post
    I don't know about that -- Fervour potions are, hands down, the single most-requested class consumable mentioned in GLFF on my server. No one ever asks for minstrel sheetmusic or loremaster parables or guardian tactics; requests for bow chants or fire/light oils are rare. But PvMP Champions are asking for Fervour potions every day.
    Must be server specific I guess, in over two years I've seen one or two requests for fervour pots in group/kinchat and none in public channels, hunter item requests were much more common. But I also tend to stay away/ignore PvMP talk, and for PvE fervour pots aren't that useful, compared to oils which in some cases are required. And the OP seems to be interested more in useful stuff for the levelling phase, not maxing PvMP potential.
    And I never said that champs can't be scholars, just that I consider it a less useful profession for the class compared to others. Most of the not-recommending is related to the gathering problems though.
    Last edited by Grimdi; Oct 22 2013 at 11:09 AM.
    Used to play: 85 Champ / Captain / Runekeeper / Guardian, Guild Master of everything but cooking.
    Playing now: Hellcat / King Tiger / GW Panther / IS / KV-5 / M4 Sherman and more

 

 

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