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  1. #51
    There's more than bit of wisdom in the original posting.

    What I know - and that as a player -casual or whatever- is that I and the small circle of folk I played with weren't against fellowing. We'd never felt pressed into fellowing, but rather we'd wanted it. Even casually. Yet for the last few years it seems there were fewer and fewer players about when we'd wanted to dungeon.

    What we'd wanted for the longest time was to have all of the other dungeons in the game scaled or balanced so they could be played by every sort of fellowship between two, and eleven players before being said a "raid." I never saw it in warcraft, nor lotro that for dungeoning we should have been held to five or only six players - when other games DAoC the last I recall from before had room for eight players in a fellowship.

    To the early days when we still had kinships and others actually wanted to play it was a matter of someone being left out. Then, once we lost so many players from lotro it was fighting uphill to fill even one fellowship for the day- and sometimes -many times- never should the dungeon we wanted be one that wasn't done for being hated by what was left of the community.

    Yes, there was skirmishing, but that was rubbish. Scarce loot, short of the twelves come Isengard, and those weren't fun dungeonings. Twelves were some of the worst where it was just standing about and everyone's got an herbalist and the only challenge was having all your settings to lowest and still hoping you'd never lose connexion. Shifting all the other dungeons over to skirmish currencies didn't help either as then it was having to choose between- do I save for better -"better"- arms or armours from the seller or do I keep my soldier/herbalist levelled. Or -once turbine added it to the sellers- do I save and save and save, give the arms, the armours, and the soldier a miss for a second or first age token- then have a weapon or class item crafted? And that, which even to the best of days it was a toss in a blind alley. And of course all that saving and saving and saving was being done from playing the same old contents - old contents where in many ways much of the fat, the random but fun loot, was cut out of them.

    To my mind it's this cutting the fat that's ruined lotro. Cutting out what little joy of discovery there was in dungeons -having it so all you get for playing them is some markings or medals- is what's driven players off. And it isn't just skirmishing. It's all of it- having sets of coins or medals tied to each dungeon cluster wasn't good either. Running each bit of content, running each individual dungeon needed/needs to be its reward- right there and then. Is there a cloak, or an emblem, or a weapon, or a shield, or any other little thing your heart shoudl want for that comes from x and x or y a place? Then go there, fight it, even on easy or normal setting -if only to see what might come of it.

    Yet when you have it so every dungeon you play grants the same thing -a bland coin or medal or seal- then it no more matters where or what you're playing. We could have a daily set of bland and thankless tasks, log in, have done, and then bugger off til we have what we "want," find there's nothing to do with those wants but the same old sh!te and never come in but once a week or even a month after. Oh wait...

    Playing the same bits over- getting the same cheap sh!te, day after day after day doesn't keep players playing, and doesn't keep friends coming back. It cheapens adventuring so it feels less a heroic doing and more a punching in and out from work.

    I'd given up on warcraft just as gearscoring -or whatever it was- was coming in, never raided much after. And yet, when I'd come to lotro - a game sold as massively multiplayer online- I'd never dreamed it would come so simple and so quickly after one or two years that I would feel so alone in the crowd. Yet that's what we're come to. I'm never so social as once I was, but I'm not a hermit, no. I want to want to play more again. I wish I had something to sell my friends so they would come back. I haven't and they aren't. Not even with "Helm's Deep" writ high and grand across the top.

    I'm not saying we should have back to the good old bad old days of loot snobbery, but Lotro needs to change. Lotro needs to make me feel that *I* and *my friends* -need- to save Middle Earth again. Right now we're not saving much of anything or anybody. We're just circling the drain -floating down on a jobby with 'trademark of SZC under license to Warner Bros. Entertainment Inc' smeared on the side.

  2. #52
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    I have no idea whether Epic Battles will constitute a fun "endgame" activity or not - yet. But I'm going to give it a very good shot once it ships in mid-November before I declare it inadequate for one reason or other. Hopefully it will appeal to a broad set of play styles, because that's what it's obviously being designed for.

    Khafar
    Last edited by Khafar; Sep 29 2013 at 01:20 PM.

  3. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Khafar View Post
    I have no idea whether Epic Battles will constitute a fun "endgame" activity or not - yet. But I'm going to give it a very good shot once it ships in mid-November before I declare it inadequate for one reason or other. Hopefully it will appeal to a broad set of play styles, because that's what it's obviously being designed for.

    Khafar
    Hopefully you are right.

    I have a feeling LoTRO is about to lose alot of customers.. possibly even you and I. Long time players are gona be /facepalming hard at this expac, I would imagine. The huge class changes. The decision to omit classic raids and instances. The lore violations. No change to PvMP. A lot of dissatisfied customers.
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  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaMac View Post
    Hopefully you are right.

    I have a feeling LoTRO is about to lose alot of customers.. possibly even you and I. Long time players are gona be /facepalming hard at this expac, I would imagine. The huge class changes. The decision to omit classic raids and instances. The lore violations. No change to PvMP. A lot of dissatisfied customers.
    No worries, after all the raiders and pvpers represent a very small percentage of the population (the single digits quote)... They shouldn't be missed at all. Or?
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  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaMac View Post
    I have a feeling LoTRO is about to lose alot of customers...
    Maybe, but people have cried wolf on that score so many times in the past that I'm skeptical. Pretty much every significant MMO that's shipped in the past 7 years has been predicted to be the end of LOTRO, and most weren't even noticeable for more than a month or two. People complained about the direction changes to the game (and class changes too) in each of the expansions that came out. And of course, some left - two of my long-term gaming friends left after Moria, and another after Mirkwood.

    The huge class changes. The decision to omit classic raids and instances. The lore violations. No change to PvMP.
    Of all that, I suspect the class changes have far and away the largest potential to cause the most players heartburn. If they're well done, offering players some new choices on how to create class hybrids, strengthening the impact of each pick, requiring people to make some meaningful tradeoffs... even people who hate them at first might come around. If not, then yeah, it could cost them a lot more than "single digits". Personally, I'd hate to be in the developer's shoes who are making those changes, because I think they're much more make or break than the other stuff.

    Remember, though, even the NGE update to Star Wars Galaxies (which had many more fundamental changes than this) cost them less than 1/3 of their active players, according to a friend who was working on that game at the time. This would almost certainly be less than that, although "only 20%" isn't exactly a comforting term either. Here's to hoping it's well-done.

    Khafar
    Last edited by Khafar; Sep 30 2013 at 10:19 AM.

  6. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by RicardoFurriel View Post
    No worries, after all the raiders and pvpers represent a very small percentage of the population (the single digits quote)... They shouldn't be missed at all. Or?
    Haha yeah Im sure a massive game like Lotro with is huge share of the market wont miss 10% of its customers..or?
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  7. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Khafar View Post
    Maybe, but people have cried wolf on that score so many times in the past that I'm skeptical. Pretty much every significant MMO that's shipped in the past 7 years has been predicted to be the end of LOTRO, and most weren't even noticeable for more than a month or two. People complained about the direction changes to the game (and class changes too) in each of the expansions that came out. And of course, some left - two of my long-term gaming friends left after Moria, and another after Mirkwood.

    Of all that, I suspect the class changes have far and away the largest potential to cause the most players heartburn. If they're well done, offering players some new choices on how to create class hybrids, strengthening the impact of each pick, requiring people to make some meaningful tradeoffs... even people who hate them at first might come around. If not, then yeah, it could cost them a lot more than "single digits". Personally, I'd hate to be in the developer's shoes who are making those changes, because I think they're much more make or break than the other stuff.

    Remember, though, even the NGE update to Star Wars Galaxies (which had many more fundamental changes than this) cost them less than 1/3 of their active players, according to a friend who was working on that game at the time. This would almost certainly be less than that, although "only 20%" isn't exactly a comforting term either. Here's to hoping it's well-done.

    Khafar

    The class changes will have people leaving, sure. No instances or raids will have people leaving too and will make sure they wont attract new customers. The future is certainly not looking rosey.
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  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaMac View Post
    No instances or raids will have people leaving too and will make sure they wont attract new customers.
    Actually, if you're a new customer, you're much more likely to be interested in "endgame" you can access within a few hours of starting to play than in instances/raids which are at level 95. Also, GW2 has been doing quite well despite not having any raids, per se. They have dynamic events, something I suspect Epic Battles will be taking some cues from.

    Khafar

  9. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Khafar View Post
    Actually, if you're a new customer, you're much more likely to be interested in "endgame" you can access within a few hours of starting to play than in instances/raids which are at level 95. Also, GW2 has been doing quite well despite not having any raids, per se. They have dynamic events, something I suspect Epic Battles will be taking some cues from.

    Khafar
    The endgame is why people bother to play these games (or atleast the raider kind, the ones that fill WoW servers or the PvP kind that play GW2)

    GW2 is a PvP game, that why its successful. But You may be corect in saying BB will be a rip-off of GW2, but without the PvP....

    Lotro has very very little to appeal to new customers. And that worries me.
    Last edited by DaMac; Sep 30 2013 at 05:16 PM.
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  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaMac View Post
    The endgame is why people bother to play these games...
    Nonsense. That may of course be why you (and many others too, of course) play these games, but the data from PlayOn (full instrumentation of WoW back in 2006) makes it pretty clear that a majority of players have other interests.

    Khafar

  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khafar View Post
    Nonsense. That may of course be why you (and many others too, of course) play these games, but the data from PlayOn (full instrumentation of WoW back in 2006) makes it pretty clear that a majority of players have other interests.

    Khafar
    ja Good one, khafar

    End game is as important as any if not more important, because it retains customers in the long-term.

    Your data is wrong.
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  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Al. View Post
    ja Good one, khafar

    End game is as important as any if not more important, because it retains customers in the long-term.

    Your data is wrong.
    Regards,
    AI
    He's also mentioning a time in WOW when only the best players raided. And it took several months (for some people close to 6 months) to reach level cap. There were no mounts in the game until level 40 and the areas were large, most had quest hubs quite far away from the objectives. And also a time when the gear you needed to raid was gated behind 5 man content. Making the grind to finally be able to raid exhausting. So fewer players were able to experience it. It wasn't until after Burning Crusade was ending that mounts were available at level 20 and the leveling grind was decreased. At that point raiding in WOW was more accessible to a higher population. They even put a nerf on Ice Crown Citadel (non hard mode) so more players could enjoy the endgame.


    So you see numbers from 2006 have little bearing on what goes on in WOW today. With the introduction of the group finder and looking for raid feature they have made the raids more readily available to the players.

  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minquinn View Post
    He's also mentioning a time in WOW when only the best players raided. And it took several months (for some people close to 6 months) to reach level cap. There were no mounts in the game until level 40 and the areas were large, most had quest hubs quite far away from the objectives. And also a time when the gear you needed to raid was gated behind 5 man content. Making the grind to finally be able to raid exhausting. So fewer players were able to experience it. It wasn't until after Burning Crusade was ending that mounts were available at level 20 and the leveling grind was decreased. At that point raiding in WOW was more accessible to a higher population. They even put a nerf on Ice Crown Citadel (non hard mode) so more players could enjoy the endgame.


    So you see numbers from 2006 have little bearing on what goes on in WOW today. With the introduction of the group finder and looking for raid feature they have made the raids more readily available to the players.
    Quote Originally Posted by DaMac View Post
    The endgame is why people bother to play these games (or atleast the raider kind, the ones that fill WoW servers or the PvP kind that play GW2)

    GW2 is a PvP game, that why its successful. But You may be corect in saying BB will be a rip-off of GW2, but without the PvP....

    Lotro has very very little to appeal to new customers. And that worries me.

    I'd be sincerely interested in the % of people in WOW stepping into raids now (Any raid even LFR) or % of people that play any kind of PVP in GW2(WvWvW or Mists).

    I honestly doubt even with all the ease of access it's more than 40% and that seems really high already. I guess i'll see if i can find something when i get the time.
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  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minquinn View Post
    He's also mentioning a time in WOW when only the best players raided. And it took several months (for some people close to 6 months) to reach level cap.
    PlayOn's data was from about 18 months after launch, so even casual gamers like me had characters at the level cap. I had one at the cap and another within 5 levels of the cap after about 9 months. Yet relatively few were raiding. I find it interesting that even back then, the percentage of players raiding regularly was likely to be in the same ballpark as what Sapience says LOTRO's percentages are now.

    So you see numbers from 2006 have little bearing on what goes on in WOW today.
    Yes, of course. If you provide nothing but raids and PvP as "endgame" for many years, you wind up with more people doing raids and PvP (after sufficient time has elapsed). Those who don't like it eventually tire of playing various alts, and either just hang out and socialize - or leave.

    The opposite argument has been made about raiding here in LOTRO, and it does have merit - if raiding isn't sufficiently supported, raiders will go play other games. This seems self-evidently true, so the question becomes "Is it worth the high cost of developing lots of raid content to retain them?". Open question.

    Khafar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Khafar View Post
    PlayOn's data was from about 18 months after launch, so even casual gamers like me had characters at the level cap. I had one at the cap and another within 5 levels of the cap after about 9 months. Yet relatively few were raiding. I find it interesting that even back then, the percentage of players raiding regularly was likely to be in the same ballpark as what Sapience says LOTRO's percentages are now.

    Yes, of course. If you provide nothing but raids and PvP as "endgame" for many years, you wind up with more people doing raids and PvP (after sufficient time has elapsed). Those who don't like it eventually tire of playing various alts, and either just hang out and socialize - or leave.

    The opposite argument has been made about raiding here in LOTRO, and it does have merit - if raiding isn't sufficiently supported, raiders will go play other games. This seems self-evidently true, so the question becomes "Is it worth the high cost of developing lots of raid content to retain them?". Open question.

    Khafar
    What would you rather have for end game content? Please enlighten us. Details if you could.

    Also why do you think WOW kept offering PVP and group content as endgame? Why not just go in the Hytbold direction?

    I'll give my quick opinion. They made the group play easier to access and accomplish. This got more players involved in it. They offered a variety and plethora of good content to keep players playing even though they go between 1 1/2 to 2 years in between content. This included daily quests, daily dungeons, new raids (3 multiboss 2 lair with just about every xpac), new 5 mans, heroic 5 mans, new pvp battlegrounds and an open pvp area with each xpac.

    Saying that forcing players to PVP or raid as an endgame is not correct. The players who didn't like these features could have simply quit the game. This is the same general advice given to any player in this forum that has concerns with the game. But they kept playing to the tune of 12 million players. Even with the recent drop off of 3 to 4 million players they ares till the most popular fantasy MMO by over a million players. I did not raid during vanilla. I only raided lightly during BC (mostly Karazhan runs). I did actively raid during WOTLK because they made it easier to access. Lotro has been taking the same path but the execution was not on par with what players wanted.
    Last edited by Minquinn; Oct 01 2013 at 11:39 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vexendynamus View Post
    You are not alone and that, in a nutshell, is why Turbine stopped pouring resources into the development of complicated raid spaces: Poor return on investment.

    I think more acurately it should be stated is "poor return on poor quality"

  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minquinn View Post
    What would you rather have for end game content? Please enlighten us. Details if you could.
    Well, I've asked for "Scalable PvE Warfare" going back to 2007 (I posted a big thread on that back in the beta forums for SoA), and it sounds like we may be getting something along those lines in HD. That's a good start. I'd also like to have more non-combat advancement ladders (crafting, housing, hobbies) which have long-term goals and appeal. There are tons of level-capped characters Fishing in FFXI, for example. Why? Because they made it compelling enough to serve as one source of entertainment for months, years. Fishing in LOTRO is pathetic by comparison, and it simply doesn't hold anyone's attention past a month or two, if that. To me, "endgame" is what you do long-term in an MMO, and can therefore encompass a broad set of activities. My primary "endgame" in LOTRO was simply learning new classes, for years. But once I ran out of those... I had virtually nothing to hold my interest between content drops.

    I realize a lot of players would rather have dental surgery than spend dozens of hours on Housing or Fishing or whatever else. But a lot of players feel exactly the same way about raiding. I've done it (mostly in games prior to LOTRO, a little bit since), but I just don't like it much.

    Khafar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Khafar View Post
    Well, I've asked for "Scalable PvE Warfare" going back to 2007 (I posted a big thread on that back in the beta forums for SoA), and it sounds like we may be getting something along those lines in HD. That's a good start. I'd also like to have more non-combat advancement ladders (crafting, housing, hobbies) which have long-term goals and appeal. There are tons of level-capped characters Fishing in FFXI, for example. Why? Because they made it compelling enough to serve as one source of entertainment for months, years. Fishing in LOTRO is pathetic by comparison, and it simply doesn't hold anyone's attention past a month or two, if that. To me, "endgame" is what you do long-term in an MMO, and can therefore encompass a broad set of activities. My primary "endgame" in LOTRO was simply learning new classes, for years. But once I ran out of those... I had virtually nothing to hold my interest between content drops.

    I realize a lot of players would rather have dental surgery than spend dozens of hours on Housing or Fishing or whatever else. But a lot of players feel exactly the same way about raiding. I've done it (mostly in games prior to LOTRO, a little bit since), but I just don't like it much.

    Khafar
    I suspect that those ideas would cost a lot of money / development time. Plus, I'm not sure about the RoI of such ideas. Plus, if those things would actually bring $$$ to Lotro, I'm pretty sure they would had been implemented already.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RicardoFurriel View Post
    I suspect that those ideas would cost a lot of money / development time.
    The initial cost is high, but it does pay dividends over time if it's sufficiently compelling. FFXI doesn't have to spend lots of $$ to maintain Fishing... it entertains people year after year because they built a critical mass of features into it to begin with. Back when LOTRO decided to add that as a hobby, I was hoping for something more along the lines of what FFXI did. Unfortunately, that didn't happen and now I doubt we'll ever get another hobby because the one we have flopped.

    In any case, you're probably correct, at least at this point in the game's life cycle. Spending a bunch on Housing, Fishing, etc would have made more sense in the first year it was out... not so much now. At least the scalable PvE warfare idea was eventually considered "worth it", although even that would have been better in terms of "ROI" 5 years ago than now.

    (By the way, if you think you're going to get me to disagree with my own viewpoints on other features just because you're applying them to these ideas... think again. I'm a pretty practical guy, so I know they don't have a great chance of being done).

    Khafar

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    Quote Originally Posted by Iozeph View Post
    What we'd wanted for the longest time was to have all of the other dungeons in the game scaled or balanced so they could be played by every sort of fellowship between two, and eleven players before being said a "raid." I never saw it in warcraft, nor lotro that for dungeoning we should have been held to five or only six players - when other games DAoC the last I recall from before had room for eight players in a fellowship.

    To the early days when we still had kinships and others actually wanted to play it was a matter of someone being left out. Then, once we lost so many players from lotro it was fighting uphill to fill even one fellowship for the day- and sometimes -many times- never should the dungeon we wanted be one that wasn't done for being hated by what was left of the community.
    You are exactly right, group content has not worked well in LOTRO because they have it so finely tuned to a specific group size and level. Your group is short, you're screwed. Or the other way around (skirmishes) become a snooze fest. It sounds like they are trying to address this with Big Battles. Some parts within the instance will be much harder than others. So groups of any size and level should be able to participate, they're just not able to tackle the same challenges, which is ok because of the new reward system it will still be worth it. I'm really very excited about Big Battles, if done right they could really open up a lot more options for group play.
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    I like khafar's idea for end-game but I think is not cost-effective.

    Also Hobbies are part of quests too, Crafting is optional, Housing will probably get a revamp.

    But end-game needs this things to be effective:
    • Non-Linear Content, possibly content the requires you to do multiple activities to complete.
    • Expansive content, end-game be it raids or solo should keep expanding upon next updates.
    • Community based content, that takes advantage of the Multi-player aspect of LOTRO.


    Those are the three main things end-game should have to be cost-effective and to be quality content at the same time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Al. View Post
    I like khafar's idea for end-game but I think is not cost-effective.

    Also Hobbies are part of quests too, Crafting is optional, Housing will probably get a revamp.

    But end-game needs this things to be effective:
    • Non-Linear Content, possibly content the requires you to do multiple activities to complete.
    • Expansive content, end-game be it raids or solo should keep expanding upon next updates.
    • Community based content, that takes advantage of the Multi-player aspect of LOTRO.


    Those are the three main things end-game should have to be cost-effective and to be quality content at the same time.
    All I can see is another hytbold... You can group it to make it faster, 5 quests a day, and the only thing it's missing is expansiveness.

    Good thing HD end-game, as they've said, is big battles.
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    Quote Originally Posted by commodore1 View Post
    I think more acurately it should be stated is "poor return on poor quality"
    That's a very good point. Self-fulfilling prophecy: raids have reduced quality=fewer players raid=less resources invested in raids=even fewer players interested in raiding=even less resources=etc.

    It's the same with any aspect of the game. Now that we've been scolded about how silly we were to think that the housing update will contain anything significant, people who care about housing may very well go the way of the raiders, and Turbine will be able to say 'see--people don't want housing so why should we invest in it again?'

    We don't have a game where investments are made to entice people to try aspects they haven't tried before; investments are all based on one simple majority and the one piece of content they do most. Everything else seems to be considered expendable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Khafar View Post
    Well, I've asked for "Scalable PvE Warfare" going back to 2007 (I posted a big thread on that back in the beta forums for SoA), and it sounds like we may be getting something along those lines in HD. That's a good start. I'd also like to have more non-combat advancement ladders (crafting, housing, hobbies) which have long-term goals and appeal. There are tons of level-capped characters Fishing in FFXI, for example. Why? Because they made it compelling enough to serve as one source of entertainment for months, years. Fishing in LOTRO is pathetic by comparison, and it simply doesn't hold anyone's attention past a month or two, if that. To me, "endgame" is what you do long-term in an MMO, and can therefore encompass a broad set of activities. My primary "endgame" in LOTRO was simply learning new classes, for years. But once I ran out of those... I had virtually nothing to hold my interest between content drops.

    I realize a lot of players would rather have dental surgery than spend dozens of hours on Housing or Fishing or whatever else. But a lot of players feel exactly the same way about raiding. I've done it (mostly in games prior to LOTRO, a little bit since), but I just don't like it much.

    Khafar
    I will admit that at this point in the games stage scalable warfare is a good idea. It will make using the group finder useful. The only thing that scares me about HD is that it may be too much like a skirmish and that we may be limited in content when compared to past content we spent the same amount on.

    As for the non combat advancement. Crafting could use a revamp but not along the lines of it being a key feature for players at level cap. So instead of doing daily quests or crafting dungeons as an alternative I could sit at workbench for an hour instead?

    Fishing in this game is just terrible. It has needed a revamp for many many years. Wow had the right ideas with actual drops for fishing, you know gear and crafting mats. This how ever is just polishing a feature you already have. Not much of an end game unless you start a competitive ladder or something like that. (contests)

    Housing needs a revamp as well. But housing in itself is not an endgame feature. Hobbies don't exist in this game unless you fish. Archeology could be a cool one or even like a leisure activity like golf. It's still not an end game activity.

    And leveling alts after how long I been playing the game is pointless.

    I know people have alts but just imagine how good the game could be at cap if you had a wide variety of content to do and never had to roll one.

  25. #75
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    12,677
    Quote Originally Posted by Minquinn View Post
    As for the non combat advancement....
    As I said, I take "endgame" to mean "stuff I'm going to be interested in doing in an MMO long after I've reached the level cap". All of the examples I gave are perfectly good long-term activities in a game, at least for some players. Ask the players in SWG who spent hundreds of hours simply working on their houses & towns. Or building a crafting empire. Ask the people in FFXI who have spent more time Fishing than they have "adventuring". As it turns out, FFXI does have fishing contests, but those really aren't why most people participate... they simply like the process, the exploring, the collecting, and what sometimes seem like emergent behaviors.

    And leveling alts after how long I been playing the game is pointless.
    Again, for you. I spent 5 entire years leveling alts. I don't like raiding, and while PvP can be fun... the "jerk factor" has always driven me off, sooner or later.

    I know people have alts but just imagine how good the game could be at cap if you had a wide variety of content to do and never had to roll one.
    No thanks. One of the very best things for me in an MMO is learning to play various classes. This was the single biggest reason I stopped playing SWG just 5 months after it shipped. I finished advancing my first character, and they didn't allow me to create a 2nd. I played for about 2 weeks after that, then left for good. I'm not trying to tell you that you're wrong in terms of what you enjoy, just pointing out that other people may have *very* different ideas about what's enjoyable .

    Khafar

 

 
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