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  1. #1

    Casual Player != Hermit: A Defense of Raids and Group Content

    Hello, everyone.

    As the title implies, I am a VERY casual player. Supposedly, I belong to the demographic that Turbine has been more and more targeting over the years.

    What disturbs me is Turbine's misconception of what a casual player is. Apparently, they think a casual player is a hermit who hates people and wants to pay, pay, pay to play solo in a massively multiplayer online game. Where they got this bizarre idea, I don't know. All I know is that the content over the past few years has increasingly disposed of any interesting group content in favor of solo players.

    First of all, let's discuss what a casual player truly is. It may be a solo player, true. However, I would imagine most "casual" players going into an MMO realize that one of the M's stands for multiplayer, not singleplayer. Turbine, if I wanted to play a single player game, I'd just buy a single player game. LOTRO isn't that good, given its age, to where I'd drop so much money to solo my way to level cap and shun all social interaction, rather than simply buy a much cheaper single-player game.

    What a casual player truly is is one who doesn't have a lot of time to spend gaming. We have day jobs, family, friends, responsibilities, or even other hobbies. When we do log in, yes, we might solo quite a bit depending on how much time we have available. But what about when we have a nice chunk of time? Many of us, like myself, actually like grouping and interacting with other players. We want to explore challenging group content--whether they be epic book lines, various instances, or even, on the rare night we have a block of 5 hours available, raids.

    No, we don't often step foot in raids, favoring shorter instances. But if you feel that makes raids not worth the investment, then you're wrong.

    An MMO needs a variety of things to do, especially at level cap, so as to not induce boredom. Bored players log off. I've never logged off so much until Rohan. And bored players who are logged off aren't spending money on the game, no matter how many hobbit presents you entice them with. When the slot machine that is hobbit presents becomes the central draw to your game, you know you have a problem.

    I long ago ditched my player house, but I don't begrudge other players housing updates. I rarely play raids, but I certainly don't begrudge resources being dedicated to creating them. I do enjoy instances when I have the time on weekends, so I definitely don't mind challenging, thoughtful ones being created. I don't really craft anymore, because it's like watching paint dry, but I know other players like it, and I sure like buying the stuff they make.

    Turbine, you've really blown it. You've made the PvE leveling experience so easy that I can randomly click buttons and still win. And if I group with someone, I can kill NPCs on autoattack while watching TV. How is that fun to a casual player? It isn't! Games are supposed to be challenging! If I want something this easy I can go get a Fischer Price tool for toddlers and play with that. You've also ripped out instances over the years, bolstering solo players for the epic book quests. It's made leveling a lonely experience for this casual player. Nobody has any reason to group anymore! We haven't since Mirkwood. I remember even the skirmishes in Mirkwood would award solo players with more drops than grouped ones. I never once saw an LFF for a skirmish because of that!

    Finally, you practically done away with any interesting raid content. I don't raid much. Last time I raided was SOA in the Rift. Yup. But that doesn't mean I don't want the option. These instances you have now are a joke. They're so dull and uncreative. What happened to your ingenuity? The Rift and so many instances in SOA and Moria were a great adventure for this casual player. They were wonderful places to explore. Now it's just run in, beat a boss, and done. Worse is seeing so many raiders driven away from LOTRO. Many of these were my kinmates. They were great folks to play with, and now there's that many fewer players with whom I can interact. So many 1 in 10 players or less ever even touches a raid. But that doesn't mean that the 1 in 10 doesn't enrich the community and give a positive experience to the casual players.

    Turbine, on behalf of all casual players, please put back the creative and challenging group content you once gave us. We casual players don't want to be complete hermits.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silverbullets View Post
    However, I would imagine most "casual" players going into an MMO realize that one of the M's stands for multiplayer, not singleplayer. Turbine, if I wanted to play a single player game, I'd just buy a single player game. LOTRO isn't that good, given its age, to where I'd drop so much money to solo my way to level cap and shun all social interaction, rather than simply buy a much cheaper single-player game.
    You have mistaken "multiplayer" for "MUST group". And, indeed, the shift to more solo/soloable content was driven by *player* demand, not Turbine's desires.

    I am not opposed to group content. In fact, I'm all for group content. The constraint on it needs to be that it doesn't lock soloers out of character or story line advancement. The group instances in the Epic Quest had problems that way, and since those quests are more or less the "backbone" on which LotRO is hung (beyond the main plot elements of LotR), that was a serious problem.

    At the same time, I am opposed to "solo only" content anywhere it can be avoided. It can't always be avoided, but when it can, it should be.

    There are other cans of worms involved with solo vs. group content, but leaving those aside unopened, I think you will find that there are very, very few people that are actually against Turbine adding more group content.

  3. #3
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    Bump, eloquently put, and I could not agree more. Turbine really needs to rethink their target market, revenue model, and the associated content. I for one enjoy having the optionality of end game raiding content, and as such would be willing to pay a premium. I however would prefer if they first tested their releases to ensure that compatibility, and more importantly, have a dev log which acknowledges certain pervasive problems as well as a timeline for a 'fix'.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Silverbullets View Post
    Last time I raided was SOA in the Rift.
    You are not alone and that, in a nutshell, is why Turbine stopped pouring resources into the development of complicated raid spaces: Poor return on investment.

  5. #5
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    I don't think they believe "casual player" = "hermit".

    But where they get most of their "ideas" on this are from their own game data. Store data too now. They use that data to identify trends, to help validate or refute feedback they're getting from a narrow set of people on the forums, to identify which content and features are used, by whom, for how long. I don't have to guess about this, they mention it fairly routinely in their posts and interviews, and one of Turbine's developers told me explicitly back in 2007 or so that they were "big" on backing up opinions with data. I'm sure they're even "bigger" on that now than they were then.

    They judged the rework of the epic storyline a success based on how many more people actually participated in it once you could solo the portions which required groups. They were surprised by just how many people did the solo instances they shipped with Moria, and how often... they had to put more limits on them (even once an exploit was plugged) so people wouldn't overstress the servers. They got to see that solo skirmishes were run at least 6X as often as 3-mans, right from the very start. Etc.

    Does that mean they should do no group content? No, of course not. But when you have limited resources, you need to be smart about how you spend them. As Sapience put it, if some constituency in your game is 10% of your players, you don't spend 90% of your resources trying to please them. Nor do you spend 0%. (Note that this is over the long haul, not within the confines of one update or expansion... they cannot possibly give everyone something in every content drop).

    The problem with raids is that they're extremely expensive content to build, yet they're consumed by a modest percentage of players. See this post for a bit of the flavor of just how complex and expensive they are.

    Again, that doesn't mean they should stop doing any raids, ever. However, I think it's smart of them to focus on scalable content for Helm's Deep, because it supports most adventuring playstyles, because it will help people find groups more easily, and because it will encourage more players to buy the expansion. "Big Battles" won't be cheap content to produce either, but at least it will have much more reach than a typical raid does.

    Khafar
    Last edited by Khafar; Sep 08 2013 at 04:02 AM.

  6. #6
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    This is a very rare thread. One where everyone is talking sense.

    One of the things to bear in mind is that "casuals" vs "raideers" is a gross over simplification. There is a large range of variation within both of those labels.
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  7. #7
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    Personally i'm still of the mind that scaling instances to group size is the best idea, with the caveat that it's hard to get an adequate difficulty for all group sizes.
    (Skirmishes are too easy and offer too little reward for the lower sizes but I think turbine's own DDO does a very good job at that, at least up to 6 man content).
    It seems to me that is exactly what they are gonna try to do with the big battles though.


    The second thing i'm adamant about is gear equality between playstyles, but i won't open that can anymore for now :P.
    Nothing here matters.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by whheydt View Post
    You have mistaken "multiplayer" for "MUST group". And, indeed, the shift to more solo/soloable content was driven by *player* demand, not Turbine's desires.

    I am not opposed to group content. In fact, I'm all for group content. The constraint on it needs to be that it doesn't lock soloers out of character or story line advancement. The group instances in the Epic Quest had problems that way, and since those quests are more or less the "backbone" on which LotRO is hung (beyond the main plot elements of LotR), that was a serious problem.

    At the same time, I am opposed to "solo only" content anywhere it can be avoided. It can't always be avoided, but when it can, it should be.

    There are other cans of worms involved with solo vs. group content, but leaving those aside unopened, I think you will find that there are very, very few people that are actually against Turbine adding more group content.
    lol you defend this position everywhere and everytime you can, HD is sooo bad, no good group based endgame and screwed up classes, we will see how turbines bottom line looks for catering to @player@ demand lol they are going to BLEED subs

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whiperandwake View Post
    lol you defend this position everywhere and everytime you can, HD is sooo bad, no good group based endgame and screwed up classes, we will see how turbines bottom line looks for catering to @player@ demand lol they are going to BLEED subs
    And you know this... because you are in the beta? or do you have a De Lorean equiped with a flux capacitor (or the Tardis if you are British)... Seriously how do people predict with certainty on what would spell the end of middle earth as we know it?

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by jaecynt View Post
    And you know this... because you are in the beta? or do you have a De Lorean equiped with a flux capacitor (or the Tardis if you are British)... Seriously how do people predict with certainty on what would spell the end of middle earth as we know it?
    That would be an ecumenical matter.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khafar View Post
    They judged the rework of the epic storyline a success based on how many more people actually participated in it once you could solo the portions which required groups. They were surprised by just how many people did the solo instances they shipped with Moria, and how often... they had to put more limits on them (even once an exploit was plugged) so people wouldn't overstress the servers. They got to see that solo skirmishes were run at least 6X as often as 3-mans, right from the very start. Etc.
    The problem with this type of data is how you interpret it: Did people run more solo-skirms because
    - they liked them better,
    - they were easier/faster,
    - the reward rate was better,
    - there is no good group-finding tool available,
    - the solo-option is the default,
    - they only tried the 2 intro skirmishes and then ignored that game system

    A single datapoint doesn't answer that. Just like Hytbold quests were done by many players does not mean a lot of players like that type of gameplay, maybe the available alternatives were just even less interesting to them. Or the statements that raiders are a single-digit percentage of the total player population being meaningless without actual definitions of "raider" and "total player population". You can construct all kind of conclusions taking arbitrary datapoints: If there are more instance quests finished than festival quests (over all servers combined in a given timeframe), certainly instances are far more popular than festivals, right?

  12. #12
    First of all +rep to the OP. I feel the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by Khafar View Post
    I don't think they believe "casual player" = "hermit".

    But where they get most of their "ideas" on this are from their own game data. Store data too now. They use that data to identify trends, to help validate or refute feedback they're getting from a narrow set of people on the forums, to identify which content and features are used, by whom, for how long. I don't have to guess about this, they mention it fairly routinely in their posts and interviews, and one of Turbine's developers told me explicitly back in 2007 or so that they were "big" on backing up opinions with data. I'm sure they're even "bigger" on that now than they were then.

    They judged the rework of the epic storyline a success based on how many more people actually participated in it once you could solo the portions which required groups. They were surprised by just how many people did the solo instances they shipped with Moria, and how often... they had to put more limits on them (even once an exploit was plugged) so people wouldn't overstress the servers. They got to see that solo skirmishes were run at least 6X as often as 3-mans, right from the very start. Etc.

    Does that mean they should do no group content? No, of course not. But when you have limited resources, you need to be smart about how you spend them. As Sapience put it, if some constituency in your game is 10% of your players, you don't spend 90% of your resources trying to please them. Nor do you spend 0%. (Note that this is over the long haul, not within the confines of one update or expansion... they cannot possibly give everyone something in every content drop).

    The problem with raids is that they're extremely expensive content to build, yet they're consumed by a modest percentage of players. See this post for a bit of the flavor of just how complex and expensive they are.

    Again, that doesn't mean they should stop doing any raids, ever. However, I think it's smart of them to focus on scalable content for Helm's Deep, because it supports most adventuring playstyles, because it will help people find groups more easily, and because it will encourage more players to buy the expansion. "Big Battles" won't be cheap content to produce either, but at least it will have much more reach than a typical raid does.

    Khafar
    Then, here, you describe exactly what is in my opinion the biggest problem with collecting player data and interpretation.

    When I played Lotro, I played it like this this:

    Monday - Played for 4 hours. Played some solo stuff, solo instances, twinking
    Tuesday - Played for 4 hours. Played solo and one or two 6 man instances, in a group
    Wednesday - Played for 1 hour, just logging in, checking the mail, took a look into the auction house
    Thursday - Played 4 hours. Played solo mostly, while watching TV or listening to music and chatting with the other guys of the kin
    Friday - Played 4 hours. Raid evening! Highlight of the week when it comes to Lotro. The day I was preparing all week for.
    Saturday - Party. No play.
    Sunday - Played 2 to 4 hours. Played solo and some small instances on sunday afternoon, but not the hard ones. Mostly 3 man stuff.

    So, when I would see my behavior in a statistic, naturally it would look like this:
    12 hours solo play
    2 hours small group (3 man instances)
    2 hours normal group (6 man instances)
    4 hours raid

    But, the 12 hours solo play were just preparation for the good stuff. The time I made some character progression, where I was crafting, twinking, doing virtuies and stuff, to make my character as ready as possible for the highlight of the week: raiding and group play in instances.

    So: If you remove the main event I was working for during my solo play sessions, you remove the reason why I did solo stuff at all!
    And yes, I played more solo then I was raiding. Because raiding is intense, needs preparation and you had raid locks in the past, that were lasting for a week. Still, again, group content was the main reason I was playing.
    But if you look at your data and see, obviously, that most people play most of the time solo, then be very careful what you interprete into that data. That's all I want to say here.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whiperandwake View Post
    lol you defend this position everywhere and everytime you can, HD is sooo bad, no good group based endgame and screwed up classes, we will see how turbines bottom line looks for catering to @player@ demand lol they are going to BLEED subs
    Well, let's see... I defended the existence of group content, at least mildly. I opposed unnecessary "solo only" content. Perhaps you want me to threaten to hold my breath until I turn blue in support of "end game group content in the form of traditional raids"? Sorry, I'm just not that sort of fanatic.

    In order to speak of "screwed up classes" or "no good group based end game" in HD, one would have to be in the beta program and if one were to be in the beta program, one would be forbidden to discuss what is there. So...on what are you drawing those conclusions?

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silverbullets View Post
    <snip>

    Turbine, on behalf of all casual players, please put back the creative and challenging group content you once gave us. We casual players don't want to be complete hermits.
    You don't speak for me, I'm certainly "casual". I really don't care if Turbine never produces another instance, I won't be running it. And without getting into the minority/majority nonsense, I know I'm not alone in not running instances. So your plan for the future doesn't affect me or any other solo players, at all. We might be evil, or destroying the game, or hermits, or unskilled, or anti-social, or monkeys, or too stupid to know what MMO stands for, or any other examples of the insults regularly thrown at us. But we're not breaking any rules of the game, if we don't run instanced content we're not ruining it for anyone else, and when we PvE solo our game activities affect nobody else. Nor do we design content or decide the game's direction, Turbine does that based on their own metrics.

    You've got concerns, that's all well & good. You've described the problem and the preferred solution from your perspective, again all well & good. But you're not speaking on behalf of "all" of any group.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Damojo View Post
    You don't speak for me, I'm certainly "casual". I really don't care if Turbine never produces another instance, I won't be running it. And without getting into the minority/majority nonsense, I know I'm not alone in not running instances. So your plan for the future doesn't affect me or any other solo players, at all. We might be evil, or destroying the game, or hermits, or unskilled, or anti-social, or monkeys, or too stupid to know what MMO stands for, or any other examples of the insults regularly thrown at us. But we're not breaking any rules of the game, if we don't run instanced content we're not ruining it for anyone else, and when we PvE solo our game activities affect nobody else. Nor do we design content or decide the game's direction, Turbine does that based on their own metrics.

    You've got concerns, that's all well & good. You've described the problem and the preferred solution from your perspective, again all well & good. But you're not speaking on behalf of "all" of any group.
    There's nothing unto itself "wrong" with only playing solo or whatever, but you guys are deluding yourself if you think that Turbine's current direction(without traditional 3/6/12-man instances) isn't causing huge numbers of people to jump ship. It's going to bite you sooner than you think. I know that I'll get a rebuttal along the lines of "Lol! they've been saying the game's doomed since open beta! Lol!" But you don't tell your entire raiding community to take a hike and not expect some negative repercussions.

    The only people left that think that LotRO is doing just fine are the people that interact the least with the rest of the playerbase.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dordain View Post
    There's nothing unto itself "wrong" with only playing solo or whatever, but you guys are deluding yourself if you think that Turbine's current direction(without traditional 3/6/12-man instances) isn't causing huge numbers of people to jump ship. It's going to bite you sooner than you think. I know that I'll get a rebuttal along the lines of "Lol! they've been saying the game's doomed since open beta! Lol!" But you don't tell your entire raiding community to take a hike and not expect some negative repercussions.

    The only people left that think that LotRO is doing just fine are the people that interact the least with the rest of the playerbase.
    Why do you guys keep handing me posts that have an obvious rebuttal on a platter? What "huge numbers"? Go read what Sapience said about the percentage of raiders over time.

  17. #17
    The funny thing is, this game isn't all that solo orientated right now. You can't get any decent gear soloing, until I guess 85? (So I've heard).

    I've now worked myself halfway through Isengard to 72nd level, and all the reward armor is worse than the 65 raid armor I'm wearing (which I didn't get from raiding, but from the lottery, back when we had it).

    And in any event, I've now again reached the point where landscape mobs have more morale than my character (a champ) does. Is it really a good design for 2/3 of your stats (or more) to come from gear?

    And I'm still using a 65 Second Ager as my weapon, too. I guess none of the solo quests give out weapons, and I don't seem to be able to craft a new one until 75.

    So if this game has a problem with people leaving, it's because it's not particularly friend to people unless they group for gear.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by trancejeremy View Post
    The funny thing is, this game isn't all that solo orientated right now. You can't get any decent gear soloing, until I guess 85? (So I've heard).

    I've now worked myself halfway through Isengard to 72nd level, and all the reward armor is worse than the 65 raid armor I'm wearing (which I didn't get from raiding, but from the lottery, back when we had it).

    And in any event, I've now again reached the point where landscape mobs have more morale than my character (a champ) does. Is it really a good design for 2/3 of your stats (or more) to come from gear?

    And I'm still using a 65 Second Ager as my weapon, too. I guess none of the solo quests give out weapons, and I don't seem to be able to craft a new one until 75.

    So if this game has a problem with people leaving, it's because it's not particularly friend to people unless they group for gear.
    I think this is why they introduced the concept of Hytbold for 85, where you can get gear solo by rebuilding the town. It is not yet clear what approach they'll take for gear in Helm's Deep.

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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by trancejeremy View Post
    The funny thing is, this game isn't all that solo orientated right now.

    (Snip)

    And I'm still using a 65 Second Ager as my weapon, too. I guess none of the solo quests give out weapons, and I don't seem to be able to craft a new one until 75.

    So if this game has a problem with people leaving, it's because it's not particularly friend to people unless they group for gear.
    You just haven't gotten close enough to level cap to get to the easy peasy part. Level 75, you're given a 2nd age class item in the epic quest. Symbols can be gotten from the skirmish guys for 2nd agers as well. 4 of 6 end game armour pieces don't require any grouping - they're rep gated.

    Level 85, symbols easily obtained off warbands or through the skirmish guy. End game gear is all solo. Or crafted from ridiculously easy recipe drops. Best jewelry in the game can be obtained solo, possibly rep gated. Especially gold pieces which again be bartered through rep guys or fall off mobs in the way of recipes.

    Crafted weapons are gated at the 10 level mark, or rather the mark where the game said "you can now level from X to Y". The in-between levels have never allowed you to craft them. You could pick up a drop 2nd age or barter for a 1st age at 60, craft at 65, craft at 75, and craft at 85. I imagine we can't craft anything til 95 after that. During the in-between times there are scads of 3rd age weapon drops or those cheaply available through the AH, but definitely no shortage.

    The bigger you get, the more solo oriented you find it. You're just still in the part where lotro was a game for grouping.

    As a self-confessed raider and grouper I have no objection to solo playability. I just don't understand why we can't also have instance and raid playability. The higher we go in-game, the less the grouping content holds challenge and repeatability. And despite the hype, a Big Battle sounds like it more closely resembles a skirmish than a raid. It's not a replacement for me.

    Edit: LOL just remembered all the Volume I epic line before Turbine made it solo-friendly. Anybody else remember having to group and run through Angmar to get to the instances to go in? And you had to have a viable 6-man group to do it? Just getting there was half the.... fun?
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Damojo View Post
    You don't speak for me, I'm certainly "casual". I really don't care if Turbine never produces another instance, I won't be running it. And without getting into the minority/majority nonsense, I know I'm not alone in not running instances. So your plan for the future doesn't affect me or any other solo players, at all. We might be evil, or destroying the game, or hermits, or unskilled, or anti-social, or monkeys, or too stupid to know what MMO stands for, or any other examples of the insults regularly thrown at us. But we're not breaking any rules of the game, if we don't run instanced content we're not ruining it for anyone else, and when we PvE solo our game activities affect nobody else. Nor do we design content or decide the game's direction, Turbine does that based on their own metrics.

    You've got concerns, that's all well & good. You've described the problem and the preferred solution from your perspective, again all well & good. But you're not speaking on behalf of "all" of any group.
    So everyone else be damned? I think there is a middle ground that would make most people happy....

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dordain View Post
    The only people left that think that LotRO is doing just fine are the people that interact the least with the rest of the playerbase.
    And that is precisely why it is very hard for players to ascertain how big that segment of the community actually is. They move through the game rather invisibly, and probably never join glff. Makes it very hard for us to estimate their numbers, although Turbine can do so with no difficulty.
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  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaxDetroit View Post

    So, when I would see my behavior in a statistic, naturally it would look like this:
    12 hours solo play
    2 hours small group (3 man instances)
    2 hours normal group (6 man instances)
    4 hours raid

    But, the 12 hours solo play were just preparation for the good stuff. The time I made some character progression, where I was crafting, twinking, doing virtuies and stuff, to make my character as ready as possible for the highlight of the week: raiding and group play in instances.

    So: If you remove the main event I was working for during my solo play sessions, you remove the reason why I did solo stuff at all!
    And yes, I played more solo then I was raiding. Because raiding is intense, needs preparation and you had raid locks in the past, that were lasting for a week. Still, again, group content was the main reason I was playing.
    But if you look at your data and see, obviously, that most people play most of the time solo, then be very careful what you interprete into that data. That's all I want to say here.
    But the key thing is that you spent 40% of your time grouped in either instances or raids. That makes you count heavily towards the raiding end of the spectrum.

    The big difference is between you and the person who played the whole 20 hours solo and never grouped, and did the same the week before, and the week before that, etc.

    Your play record is very different to the solo players, and Turbine will see that and understand where to count you in the statistics.
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  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Beaniemooch View Post
    Edit: LOL just remembered all the Volume I epic line before Turbine made it solo-friendly. Anybody else remember having to group and run through Angmar to get to the instances to go in? And you had to have a viable 6-man group to do it? Just getting there was half the.... fun?
    Or the 'sympathy runs' of the Moria epic when you'd be in 21st Hall and see someone calling '5/6, need heals, please, just need this one to finish'. There's a really curious dynamic at work there. Even though we all absolutely detested the necessity, at the same time I know I found myself meeting new people who you'd bump into again and again and group with over time - usually when a mutual friend called you together to do another darned epic instance for yet another friend. A small part of me misses that. Now I'd rarely pug. Maybe that's as much me as anything. Actually met the kin leader of my kin by offering to heal him and a kinmate through Stoneheights. I'd never had chance to run it before and he was desperate enough to take a chance on a healer.

    Some of this is down to us. But we do need the content to be able to do it. Perhaps Big Battles may provide some of the answer. The Instance Finder died a terrible death on my server for pugs after the initial couple of weeks so one can only imagine pugs with scaled level 10s. Saying that, pugging Draigoch for a server first was actually quite good fun. Maybe we'll even get to meet these secretive solo players who avoid all contact with the community.

    But I do fear that so much is being placed upon them that anything which has us thinking 'skirm' rather than 'raid' is going to see raiders decamp. Erebor, with the greatest will in the world, was hardly engaging for me and I know that feeling seems widespread. It's sad but it's been building for some time now. It says a lot for how much people really don't want to leave I guess, but there comes that natural break point.

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by mjk47 View Post
    Your play record is very different to the solo players, and Turbine will see that and understand where to count you in the statistics.
    This is what I doubt.
    Most statistics are not that advanced that they create player-profiles and look at them individualy.
    Sadly, that is not the case. Trust me, if you have a bad analyst, this guy can ruin your game.

    Basically what they mostly do is a query like this:
    "How many people played Single Player Instances?"
    " How much time did they spend in Single-Player Instances?"

    And you got two values that are taking into account every player on every server.

    Then they do the same for raids:
    "How many people played Raid Instances?"
    " How much time did they spend in Raid Instances?"

    Well, I can tell you for sure how the result will look like.

    I don't want to say that the Lotro guys have made this mistakes. But sometimes I get the feeling they did.
    All I want to say is what I said before: Be very careful how you analyse your game and how you interprete your statistics. :-)

  25. #25
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    1,544
    Quote Originally Posted by MaxDetroit View Post
    All I want to say is what I said before: Be very careful how you analyse your game and how you interprete your statistics. :-)
    Yeah, numbers without context/background information/proper definitions can be very dangerous and misleading. And a lot of information simply cannot be gained from statistics.

 

 
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