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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by bastiat1 View Post
    So you think there is going to be second round of developer diaries for each class? Good one.
    I haven't said this. I have said that there are to much things that could be changed to give complete information about each class and therefore intentionally is (only) an overview.

    Maybe they'll give a more complete information shortly before release or in the patchnotes of the release date, but I wouldn't bet on it. Earlier makes no sense because there could be still changes, and just shortly before or together with the release makes not much sense because it's too much work to publish all these things when the players could explore it only a few hours or 1-2 days later. So if there is new information for each class after the dev diaries I would think they'll be at least just shortly before release...

  2. #52
    There is often a player who takes it upon himself or herself to write up a guide prior to release; if that doesn't happen the Bullroarer forums are usually opened to everyone at least a week in advance of release.

  3. #53
    It all sounds good to me. I'm particularly pleased about the change to Clever Retort because I always thought that it was useless since you couldn't depend on the outcome. MM looks like a more viable alternative, in general.
    The impression that I am getting from this and other descriptions is that each class can begin in the lower levels with the basics of each trait line and specialize more and more as they advance. At level cap, you are expected to be able to have at least two heavily specialized trees for different circumstances.

  4. #54
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    good, cant wait

    i rolled a burg recently, i wanted something different from my main mini. i tried with rk(cap lv ) , got tired of being ask to heal when i made him as change from mini. rolled a warden (cap lv) ..realize that class is for ppl that like it as main ....so i stared burg and i like it, is different, i like qk , but the other stances are good too..im at lv54 and try to run diferent stances and see what they do. i think that with class tree it will made that trial and tasting more enjoyable ...looking forward to see who the mixes will work cause atm im half half , for me a burg pure in just one line is missing out in much . good timing for me i think this class is going to take second place amng my toons
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  5. Scouts within the Group Context. Please, be kind! :)

    *waves*

    I have to say that I have some grave concerns over these changes, both to Scouts [Burglars! ] specifically, and also the whole idea of removing choice in general, in that the number of skills we will have available to us will be reduced greatly, just about halved in the case of Scouts.

    But, before I go further, I also want to say that I have grave concerns over voicing any sort of negative opinion here. Let me give a brief story as to why:

    The day that the Bounder tokens were first being found not long ago, a friend of mine, one of the most level-headed people I know, made a comment within the glyphs [GLFF ] that she thought that the drop rate for the tokens was a bit low. She said so in a calm and easy manner, in no way as an attack or as a tantrum at all.

    Right away, a good many who heard her began to mock her for it. She was labeled as a 'whiner', a 'complainer' and a lot of things far worse. And, as she tried to defend herself, and just defend her right to have an opinion, the piling on because much worse, until she eventually gave up, to the delight of many.

    We know now that the Overlords not only agreed with her opinion, but to the degree that they changed things the very next day. The very next day.

    Even so, there is no doubt in my mind that, no matter the good she has done for our community, and the light she brings to those who know her and interact with her, there will always be some, maybe even many, who when they hear her name will not only think, "Oh, there's the whiner again.", but they will also share that opinion with others.

    So, let me just say that I adore these lands and those who work to make them better for us all! In no way is what I write here meant to be anything but an expression of my concern about this topic, and this topic only. Please, understand that if nothing else.

    Okay! So, as I have said, I have many concerns, and I will mention a few of them in the course of my reasoning, but the main issue I want to speak to today is Scouting within the Group Context.

    There has been a very noticeable trend that has been occurring for a long while now in these lands. The lands are now much more tame than they have ever been, and this is likely to continue. Where once, while delving into Moria, one stray goblin could easily cause one's doom, we are now able to take on five foes, or ten, sometimes even a good deal more, depending upon one's role and skill within that role, without batting an eye.

    Because of this, within the areas where many gather to explore, like 3-person adventures, 6-person adventures, and even those requiring 12 people or more, the goal of the fellowship has largely changed from one of survival and mere success, to one of Efficiency. With groups made of those who have a level of competence and the equipment to brave those dangers, success is virtually guaranteed, and the main concern is getting through the danger as quick as possible, so that another adventure can be started.

    And, even more to the point, this success can be largely achieved without devoting any significant amount of attention to defensive measures, like controlling crowds, or debuffing foes to make them weaker. Those sorts of measures are virtually meritless these days, and if the current trend continues, they will continue to be. This is my opinion because:

    - There are no 3-person adventures that require such measures in any way, whether Tier 1, or Tier 2, or even to complete the greatest Challenges within them.
    - The same is true of all 6-person adventures. Crowd controlling and defensive measure can be fun, of course! Do not get me wrong on that point! But are they needed? Not one bit, whether Tier 1, Tier 2, or the challenges within them.
    - No Tier 1 raids need these measures either.

    So, the only adventures where these sorts of things have any use at all is within the most difficult and most challenging adventures within the whole of this realm. And not many attempt such things.

    For the past couple years, I have found it very difficult to make my way into fellowships because of this. Between these three calls within the glyphs:

    - Looking for AoE DPS!
    - Looking for Ranged DPS!
    - Looking for Tactical DPS! (Yes, this is a relatively new one, but there are places like Ost Elendil, where it greatly speeds the fellowship through their adventure)

    Between those three calls, Scouts are excluded from virtually every request for aid within these lands. I have yet to be invited to a single three-person adventure formed within the Glyphs since the passes into Rohan opened. Not a single one. though I have tried and tried. It is not a personal thing, of course, but merely that we Scouts have precious little to offer over most every other class within the group context anymore, now that survivability is a non-issue. And it seems some of the few implements we do, like Counter Defense, will soon be gated.

    There are many more issues as to why this is, which I will not take the time to relate here. If anyone is really interested [And, really, why wouldn't you be? ], I posted them to the thread in the Scout forum asking for opinions on what changes need to be made, and also to my journal here

    I am not saying that Scouts cannot complete the content, or be a part of a team that can complete the content, by any means. A Guardian friend of mine and I completed the Challenge of Iorbar's Peak, with just the two of us. But it is more difficult, and more difficulty is not what most people are seeking when they call out for aid.

    So, in a nutshell, what is being done to make having Scouts within one's adventure something to be desired? As it stands now, we are the only class that cannot really affect more than one foe at a time, at least with a single action. And that lack of Efficiency is really hurting us right now. In any case, I have hope that this issue is being looked at, and something is being done to address it. Perhaps even something grand!

    Thank you, and again, please, my one opinion on this one subject does not make me a negative person, I promise you! But this has been a concern for a long while now, and as a friend of mine told me, if I let the moment pass where I could have said something, part of what happens falls upon me.

    Oh, yes, I meant to mention that earlier. Most of the people I have spoken to about this have told me to 'wait and see'. But, if one waits and sees for too long, the time for any chance of needed change will have passed.

    Thank you! [No more smilies, sadly, as there are too many already, it seems]
    Last edited by Valkrist; Sep 10 2013 at 12:50 PM.


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  6. #56
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    wall of text forgot

    mate , you forgot the scouting at moors , where dealing damage to 1 foe is fum! i think just doing dps is just too boring .
    Ascension-Arkenstone :
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  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Moochi View Post
    I've always gotten the opinion that prof. Tolkien didn't want any more French than was absolutely necessary in his creations. Can we do the same with the English-language version of LotRO?

    Instead of Coup de grâce, perhaps we can call it Mercy Blow? Will this not mean the same thing? I'd rather not see my burglar turned into a cambrioleur.

    Or, even more to my liking, but something I don't expect to be as well received, one of the following Anglo-Saxon words: (source: http://www.oldenglishtranslator.co.uk/)
    Drepe - a slaying stroke
    Feorhsweng - fatal blow
    Deáþslege - a death-blow
    /signed...
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  8. #58
    ^^^

    I agree that it would be nice if "coup de grâce" as a skill name could be reconsidered. Tolkien was unhappy that he had to use "louver" in LOTR. I think Death-blow, Killing-blow, Final Strike etc., would be more appropriate.

    Other than that, sounds really interesting and I'm looking forward to seeing how things shake out!

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Namesse View Post
    if that doesn't happen the Bullroarer forums are usually opened to everyone at least a week in advance of release.
    And even if someone doesn't write up a guide before release the world won't come to an end if players have to figure it out on the real servers.

  10. #60
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    Whilst I appreciate the post it's long overdue . Better late than never however . I view the post with therefore what I'd describe as "cautious optimism" .

    Our class is and should remain the stealth class , our primary ability is to be able to appear out of no where and just as quickly vanish . I must stress "vanish" as its important that HIPS actually works . The tree system appears interesting , the ability to switch quickly between stances ( without penalty) should be a gimme anyway . I hope it works in practice .

    Just make us useful again , not a lot to ask really. Why the fascination with "confound" it's a useless skill . Get rid of it , it won't be missed .

    I won't hold my breath but I will follow the class changes closely . Thank you Rock X , more content please .

  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lohi View Post
    And even if someone doesn't write up a guide before release the world won't come to an end if players have to figure it out on the real servers.
    I'm actually looking forward to that. We haven't had any significant class changes since Rise of Isengard(with the exception of Wardens), and back then I really enjoyed relearning the Minstrel, how the new skills worked, getting the hang of rotations and such. It was great.

  12. #62
    The new abilities sound awesome. Legendary, even!

    However, the tree system is sounds like it's already going in the direction of like, every other game with trees these days.

    Max your main role line. Put all remaining points into one of the other trees. Like, 30 points into red, 15 into yellow or blue. Rotate the colors in that formula, but any other type of arrangement is almost certainly a handicap. Might as well be automated when you're at cap, click your major color and then a minor color, no need for a complex tree to click through.

    That's okay I guess. But what I'd like to see to keep things Lotro-y would be some free floating slots. Like at the side of the trees are some slots with no tree prereqs. Say for the main skills that every specialty can use, we can pick from some skill traits like we do now that give moderately powerful bonuses.

    For example, say my captain is all in the blue healing line with a minor in yellow, but the buffs for the different banners are free floating. Instead of just being blue/yellow, there's an extra level of customization. I could be blue/yellow with a boost to the red/yellow/blue banner. Maybe take the option to buff all the banners for flexibility, or buff 1 banner and take skill buffs for two damage skills, or two healing skills, etc. etc. Give enough possible combinations that two people of one class doing the same role can still do so effectively with some room for personal style.

  13. #63
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    Each class will have some skills every player of the class will have independently which trait line or which attributes you choose. So that's not the point.

    Also each trait line is not a straight line, they have branches and maybe blind lanes. So you don't need all of one trait tree to get the legendary capstone of a trait tree. So there's the possibility that some people get all from e.g. the red tree while others use only these attributes they need for the legendary capstone; so some can have some more points for the other trees, some have less points. And also with the other points you can decide to put them all into a 2nd tree or to share them on the 2nd and 3rd tree. The new way of distribution offers much more variantions than before because you can distribute them more individually: while you need now 5 of the 7 class properties to get the legendary one of a trait line you have more possibilities to make e.g. hybrids now without loosing the legendary capstone but still you can have it extremly specialised on one trait or on one trait and only a few points on another one...

  14. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Orodbril View Post
    So: just be patient and be thankful for this overview which the developers gave you. It's a dev-diary, not a dev-class-guide or something like this...
    This diary is in fact a random compilation of a detailed well-written developer's document, and I don't see any reason why my simple questions can't be answered.

    Your comment is even doubly funny since whatever you see on live gets onto our servers six months later (at best), so by the time U12 hits RU.Lotro there will be no surprises for me. So if the developers decide to do something stupid, let's imagine they take Touch&Go away, I'll be aware of this months before it actually happens, but you'll be quite surprised because you were patient.

    And this is how we get all these Harwick / Satcroft mob farming 24/7, Dungeons and Sambrog exploits, Inspired and Counter Defense bugs, because someone too patient or too thankful failed to escalate it in due time. The only problem is that on RU, there are no in-game GMs and support, so we get screwed much worse, but it's a different story.

    Also, there's a good saying in Russia: don't tell me what to do, then I won't tell you where to go.

  15. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Lenton View Post
    Edit: All-in sounds like an interesting skill in theory, but I wonder how well it will work in practice. Anytime the burglar is fighting a raid boss, or even just a single elite, it seems like using the skill would be a poor choice. Since you won't get any mob defeats, you'll always run into the penalty unless it's used close to the end of the fight.
    Hmm.

    They could add say passive +1% DoT upon purchasing the skill, at least in that scenario it offers something to you in situations where using the skill wouldn't.
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  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by Belissario View Post
    This diary is in fact a random compilation of a detailed well-written developer's document, and I don't see any reason why my simple questions can't be answered.

    Your comment is even doubly funny since whatever you see on live gets onto our servers six months later (at best), so by the time U12 hits RU.Lotro there will be no surprises for me. So if the developers decide to do something stupid, let's imagine they take Touch&Go away, I'll be aware of this months before it actually happens, but you'll be quite surprised because you were patient.

    And this is how we get all these Harwick / Satcroft mob farming 24/7, Dungeons and Sambrog exploits, Inspired and Counter Defense bugs, because someone too patient or too thankful failed to escalate it in due time. The only problem is that on RU, there are no in-game GMs and support, so we get screwed much worse, but it's a different story.

    Also, there's a good saying in Russia: don't tell me what to do, then I won't tell you where to go.
    So at first? What simnple questions do you have? Have you ver asked them here before?

    For things like that like Touch&Go there are the testers of the Beta. Read the whole thing I write and not only the things you want to because they fit to your opinion... -.-

  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tirn View Post
    Whilst I appreciate the post it's long overdue . Better late than never however . I view the post with therefore what I'd describe as "cautious optimism" .

    Our class is and should remain the stealth class , our primary ability is to be able to appear out of no where and just as quickly vanish . I must stress "vanish" as its important that HIPS actually works . The tree system appears interesting , the ability to switch quickly between stances ( without penalty) should be a gimme anyway . I hope it works in practice .

    Just make us useful again , not a lot to ask really. Why the fascination with "confound" it's a useless skill . Get rid of it , it won't be missed .

    I won't hold my breath but I will follow the class changes closely . Thank you Rock X , more content please .

    You can perma confound lol. and that's the best CC in the game.

  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orodbril View Post
    Maybe they'll give a more complete information shortly before release or in the patchnotes of the release date, but I wouldn't bet on it.
    Patch notes for expansions typically say something like:

    Class changes:
    Burglar: See Developer Diary


    Either there will be all sorts of changes and ramifications (legendary legacies in particular) that are undocumented, or all the hype over massive skill changes was hype to obscure not having the traditional five new skills for the next ten levels (first broken with Rohan).

    The problem will be all the ensuing, "is this an intentional change or should I /bug it?" "Well, it's not in the dev diary or release notes, so /bug it."

    Historically, no outright changes have been made during betas, only adjustments to magnitudes and additions as features get finished/implemented. So a complete description of alterations could be provided now, and changes to that provided in release notes, IE, use them for their purpose.
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  19. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by jakeprecision123 View Post
    You can perma confound lol. and that's the best CC in the game.
    Can I ask how you can perma confound? I know you can put confound CD to 1 minute. But thats 35 sec daze, 1 min cooldown. Am I missing something? To permadaze 4-6 targets I had to use double riddle and disabling gamble usually. Am I missing something?
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  20. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by RJFerret View Post
    Patch notes for expansions typically say something like:

    Class changes:
    Burglar: See Developer Diary


    Either there will be all sorts of changes and ramifications (legendary legacies in particular) that are undocumented, or all the hype over massive skill changes was hype to obscure not having the traditional five new skills for the next ten levels (first broken with Rohan).

    The problem will be all the ensuing, "is this an intentional change or should I /bug it?" "Well, it's not in the dev diary or release notes, so /bug it."
    Historically, no outright changes have been made during betas, only adjustments to magnitudes and additions as features get finished/implemented. So a complete description of alterations could be provided now, and changes to that provided in release notes, IE, use them for their purpose.
    So I've already seen patchnotes where they have told all the little changes in a class (in my mind atm class changes with monster players)

    Yeah, but these "adjustments" are the things people will complain about. They will feel disadvantaged because of these little changes, when their own class becomes pnly a little bit weaker or other classes become a little bit stronger...

  21. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orodbril View Post
    So I've already seen patchnotes where they have told all the little changes in a class...
    Not to repeat myself...

    Quote Originally Posted by RJFerret View Post
    Patch notes for expansions...
    Other updates obviously don't pertain to this topic when they don't have dev diaries for every class.
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  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by RJFerret View Post
    Not to repeat myself...



    Other updates obviously don't pertain to this topic when they don't have dev diaries for every class.
    Okay. understood.

  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrinsgarCZ View Post
    Can I ask how you can perma confound? I know you can put confound CD to 1 minute. But thats 35 sec daze, 1 min cooldown. Am I missing something? To permadaze 4-6 targets I had to use double riddle and disabling gamble usually. Am I missing something?
    use the 4 piece OT t1 set along with 2 piece OT t2 set = -120s confound CD = perma confound = perma mez.

  24. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by jakeprecision123 View Post
    use the 4 piece OT t1 set along with 2 piece OT t2 set = -120s confound CD = perma confound = perma mez.
    Which is why some mobs in the latest cluster have Audacity to lower the CC duration.
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  25. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tilting_at_Turbines View Post
    I don't mind spelling and grammatical errors from people posting, but I think that these official releases should be better. Even if no one on the LOTRO staff has time to proofread these, maybe at least someone on the Player's Council could look them over before posting?

    "One of the pain points I wanted to address"
    "pain" should be replaced with "main"

    "Tricks now have a shorter durations"
    "a" should be removed

    with new skills which offer potent additions
    "which" should be replaced with "that"

    "Burglar Class Changes in Helm’s Deep"
    Remove the extra space between "Changes" and "in"

    Fix the last sentence or turn it into two sentences
    1) Be happy you got some info
    2) Sapience proofreads them. If he thinks it correct, then by the name of the valar, it's correct!
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