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  1. #26
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
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    I loved the idea of burgs and what they could do. It was just boring to level for me, but now it sounds great. Its a good thing I kept my 3rd char slot filled with a low level burg. Looks like I could really have some in HD with him. Now to hear in more detail what they have in store for hunters. If they are doing as good as a job on hunters as burgs, things will be very fun.

  2. #27
    First off...

    I am very interested to see how things play out but I am very happy that it sounds like there is a strong focus on distinct roles with distinct benefits and features for those roles. Hope that continues across all the class changes.

    Secondly...

    I personally am very happy with the amount of information in the diary. It is not a full blown report just an overview of thoughts and goals of the changes. I hope to see them all like that in the future. I prefer to know the devs are developing not drafting 50 page reports about what they are doing, and I prefer that those details come out once a solid Beta test is complete to ensure that what they disclose actually makes it to the live release. I find the endless rant threads almost as fun as the lag.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/032020000000bd0ff/signature.png]Aidus[/charsig]

    "Live and Let Die"

  3. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Rock'n'Rolla View Post
    I was expecting a full out report on the burglar's trees skills and traits, even though you summed up what each tree is going to be about.
    I was too...but then I realized that beta could change that so publishing the trees with all possible information wouldn't be ideal for the public at this time. Maybe when beta is done and they're sure tree information for each class is "for sure," then they could possibly publish that. We all know if trees were published, cries of "X is OP" or "X tree is a nerf to our trait-line" would be all around the forums before even stepping into the game and trying it out. They could, however, mention maybe what some of the new skills do.

  4. #29
    I do realize it may be premature, but after reading this
    "Mischief-makers can even use Trickster to both allow Tricks to apply to multiple targets at once and have multiple Tricks on a target at once."
    I have to ask: will trickster be a toggle skill (kinda like mischief) or a short-lenght long-cd skill? I mean will we be able to aoe multi-trick debuff all the time or only during short periods of time?

    Also,
    "In addition, most tricks now deal some damage as well, allowing the Mischief-maker to both debuff and deal damage at the same time."
    does this mean we will be able to do some consistent aoe damage if yellow traited? (if trick cooldowns are still removed as they are now if traited deep in the MM line)

  5. #30
    Join Date
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    I'm not (yet) a fan of seeing skill trees brought to LotRO, but its happening, and we must make the best of it. To that effort: I've always gotten the opinion that prof. Tolkien didn't want any more French than was absolutely necessary in his creations. Can we do the same with the English-language version of LotRO?

    Instead of Coup de grâce, perhaps we can call it Mercy Blow? Will this not mean the same thing? I'd rather not see my burglar turned into a cambrioleur.

    Or, even more to my liking, but something I don't expect to be as well received, one of the following Anglo-Saxon words: (source: http://www.oldenglishtranslator.co.uk/)
    Drepe - a slaying stroke
    Feorhsweng - fatal blow
    Deáþslege - a death-blow

    What are the resident Lore-monkey's thoughts on this?

    ---

    Edit : Hmm... Mercy is of French origin too, isn't it? How about we just call it "Enough of this. DIE!"
    Last edited by Moochi; Sep 05 2013 at 06:53 PM. Reason: EotD!
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  6. #31
    I was hoping for a little more detail in these Dev Diaries. Given that we are in a closed beta with a NDA and the beta testing has just started to get rolling, I can understand that things probably aren't set in stone yet so more details aren't finalized. Personally, I'd rather wait another 3-4 weeks for the class Dev diaries and have them be a little more specific about changes to come. We really only heard of about 2 or 3 specific changes for each trait line, which I'm under the impression is much less than the actual changes will include.

    As it relates to all of the class changes: Every description of a trait tree had some version of " In addition to Tricks and Trick Removals, survivability traits can be found early in the tree for Quiet Knives and Gamblers who want to enhance their defences." This seems a bit counter to one of the major premises of the class revamps and trait tree implementations. If it will only require a small investment in a given tree to get very important "hybrid" skills that are unrelated to our specialization (easily unlocked survivability bonuses when traiting for dps as a primary example) what has actually been done to promote specialization in classes over 'Do it all' type traiting? If a Berserker champ can toss a handful of trait points into the martial champion tree and still have access to sudden defense, or a HoT on bracing attack (made up examples obviously), or my warden can trait for spear line and still have points to unlock extra HoT pulses on healing gambits, how has anything been changed? I'd be very interested in hearing some more details in regards to this.
    [center][img]http://i58.tinypic.com/2wrm5ja_th.jpg[/img][/center]
    [center]Let our actions speak for themselves. Jinjaah has been pouring over every post in the Bullroarer forum. Please keep in mind that any experiences with previous LOTRO teams are not reflective of the current team, give us a chance[/center]

  7. #32
    Thanks DEATHKNYGHT! That helped!!!

  8. #33
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Posts
    140
    Wow... I was super worried about these class changes and the horrible skill trees (still dreading trees) but now I'm actually looking forward to bringing out my burg again.

  9. #34
    What skills are being removed? There was hardly any information in that DD. I learned that each trait line is getting one major new function but not much else.
    Adaaon (Minstrel), Gwydionn (Hunter), Tarrann (Burglar)
    [url]http://thenoldor.guildlaunch.com[/url]

  10. #35
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    443
    I am still curious what is going to happen to LIs and armor sets that give bonuses to current character builds.

  11. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    I was hoping for a little more detail in these Dev Diaries. Given that we are in a closed beta with a NDA and the beta testing has just started to get rolling, I can understand that things probably aren't set in stone yet so more details aren't finalized. Personally, I'd rather wait another 3-4 weeks for the class Dev diaries and have them be a little more specific about changes to come. We really only heard of about 2 or 3 specific changes for each trait line, which I'm under the impression is much less than the actual changes will include.

    As it relates to all of the class changes: Every description of a trait tree had some version of " In addition to Tricks and Trick Removals, survivability traits can be found early in the tree for Quiet Knives and Gamblers who want to enhance their defences." This seems a bit counter to one of the major premises of the class revamps and trait tree implementations. If it will only require a small investment in a given tree to get very important "hybrid" skills that are unrelated to our specialization (easily unlocked survivability bonuses when traiting for dps as a primary example) what has actually been done to promote specialization in classes over 'Do it all' type traiting? .....
    I personally think the dev diaries are coming out right now since the information given in the Twenty Questions left a lot more questions, and the community was starting to draw conclusions on wrong information. This way there at least is some information people can build on, and can stop drawing possibly wrong conclusions. Also, feedback to the dev diaries might give an insight in what people want their classes to look like fundamentally, without being drowned in reactions about "Skill X is overpowered". If a developer changed something fundamentally which the players end up disliking, this is the cleanest way to find out.

    As far as I see it, the change to the specialization means that we can still build hybrid the same way we do right now if we want to. The difference with the current system is that this will no longer be "the best" build for a certain class. DPS classes opting for survivability in their trait trees will probably lose some damage potential, or maybe even the option to use the capstone trait for their trait tree, depending how much survivability you want in your build.
    Currently, a number of classes (in my own experience for example. the Lore-master) are just too good at doing everything at the same time. The trait tree system will reduce this. You will still be able to do everything if you want to, but a Lore-master spreading his trait points across all trait lines will heal less than a healing focused Lore-master, deal less damage then a damage focused Lore-master, etc.

    Trait trees (when done correctly) will give the players a lot more choice about how they want to build their characters for certain situations. Add to this the ability to switch between trait trees in the field and you have a very flexible system which will give very interesting gameplay.
    Characters: Tindillin (100 Rank 7 Rune-keeper), Arnillion (95 Rank 4 Hunter) on Evernight

  12. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Kortaan View Post
    DPS classes opting for survivability in their trait trees will probably lose some damage potential, or maybe even the option to use the capstone trait for their trait tree, depending how much survivability you want in your build.
    This is already how it works on live though.
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    [center]Let our actions speak for themselves. Jinjaah has been pouring over every post in the Bullroarer forum. Please keep in mind that any experiences with previous LOTRO teams are not reflective of the current team, give us a chance[/center]

  13. #38
    Looks good so far. I think I'll have to play my burg more once this hits (Gambler looks very interesting, and so does Mischief-Maker). Can't wait to so what Captain (my main class) is going to turn out like.

  14. #39
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    612
    How about the cj? Its a part of burg, a big contribution to the group. But now its just a simple kind of stun skill. The devs has forgoten CJ for too long. And what about the instances? No one favour a burg over champ/hunter/capt/LM for a dps race instance like those people farming now. CC? Debuff? pffft.... who need a burg for those useless things, no matter how good they can do. The fate of the burg is not only depend on their skills revamp. It's depend alot on the instances strats. I hope someone can answer this question, straight and clear: Does the big battle NEED cc, debuff and CJ?

  15. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by hucklebarry View Post
    Which is now, surprisingly, a ToS violation:

    I actually like that rule

    as for the diary... felt kind of light. We get 3 specs, all similar to what we had in the past. Details? :P
    Actually he didn't violate anything. He was referring to the post above which was making claims/correctiions about the grammer errors in the dev dairy.

  16. #41
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Vancouver, Canada
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    307

    Thumbs up

    I agree that Coupe de Grace should be changed to an Anglo-Saxon word.
    Lore is the watchword of LotRO

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  17. #42
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
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    8,696
    Quote Originally Posted by RJFerret View Post
    Now just...one? Burst damage, lower DPS, and...I'm sorry, why would a group want a burg now over a ranged or AoE DPS class? (Whereas before burgs compared more to captains and lore-masters.)
    Because there's more to fights than DPS. Or at least there would be if devs stop making DPS the most important thing of all time with even healers and tanks being optional. I always ran my burglar in mischief maker because I wanted the control. Solo you can take on more enemies by riddling one for sure (gambler allowed some mezzing but I hated it and was never good at making it work for me); and with tricks the enemies do a lot less damage to you. Yes slower, but nothing wrong with being slower.

    In groups I was usually with PUGs, and control/support is much better for PUGs in my view than boring old DPS. Ie, mez stuff, root them, make them do less damage, make the party do more damage, I always loved the multi-target dust in the eyes as it was an easy debuff to do at the start. Though with mezzing there's always some raider guy who complains that you wasted 2 seconds of his life by using it instead of just doing damage.

  18. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    This is already how it works on live though.
    Not consistantly though.

    For Example, my RK has only one real survivability trait, which is a Legendary trait called Martial training. There are no requirements apart from having the trait to slot it, so I can use it in whichever build I like, and still get my max damage potential since there are only 2 other possible active Legendary traits for DPS (Mystifiying Flame/Perfect Imagery and Fall to our Wrath). There is no downside to slotting Martial Training if I want to DPS.

    Compare this to the Hunter, which has no traits whatsoever that make the character more tanky.

    On live, most of your defences are decided by the gear you wear. It seems for all of the classes, some of the defences are moving to the trait trees with the new system.
    I assume (or rather, hope) that at the level cap, a player will have enough points to max out one of the three trait lines, meaning we will definately lose something if we want more survivability in our builds, possibly losing the capstone trait if we don't have the majority or even all of our points in one trait tree.
    Characters: Tindillin (100 Rank 7 Rune-keeper), Arnillion (95 Rank 4 Hunter) on Evernight

  19. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by RJFerret View Post
    Previously burgs had three main roles, buffs/debuffs, DPS, and CC.

    Now just...one? Burst damage, lower DPS, and...I'm sorry, why would a group want a burg now over a ranged or AoE DPS class? (Whereas before burgs compared more to captains and lore-masters.)

    So, crowd control?? Or am I answered by this mez breaking line...?
    Almost same thougs :/ That will change nothing, I guess we will stay single target dps, that ocasionaly is needed for one debuff or some kind of riddle. But hope not...
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  20. #45
    Very interesting read, although leaving many questions:
    1.
    Gambler’s Advantage (which unlocks an additional Crit Chain opening skill with a Damage over Time effect
    How do you mean "additional" in this context? Additional to what?
    2. How many points are actually invested into stats vs. skills? (repeating question from Fredelas) There shouldn't be many stat points.
    3. Are there limitations to access certain tiers (e.g. in other game you cannot access tier 2 unless you invest 5 points into tier 1)?
    4.
    Mischief-makers can even use Trickster to both allow Tricks to apply to multiple targets at once and have multiple Tricks on a target at once
    Can you provide more details on "multiple"?
    5.
    They can also choose to go All In, where they receive an extremely potent buff for a short period of time.
    Can you provide more details on "extremely potent"?
    6. If I specialize in QK, how many points do I actually have left at level 85 to spend on other lines? How deep into other lines (points or tiers) can I actually get?
    7. With the trait and skill revamp, what happens to the "Improved Feint Attack"? Is it still a skill off the crit chain providing +7.5% outgoing damage buff effect 2/3 of the time?
    [B]Landroval[/B] [COLOR=#ff0000]off[/COLOR] [B]Feoktist [/B](brg)
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  21. #46
    Developers should really use Orion's Minstrel Dev Diary as their guide for any class that is going through a major revamp- which is every class with this update. It was a multi-page detailed description of what was added, subtracted, and just changed. This Dev Diary is near useless.
    Adaaon (Minstrel), Gwydionn (Hunter), Tarrann (Burglar)
    [url]http://thenoldor.guildlaunch.com[/url]

  22. #47
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
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    124
    Spending points on +morale and mitigations doesn't sound particularly fun, and likely end up being negligible/filler traits when a burglar doesn't prioritize these at all.

    Nothing about roles either, or where a burglar fits in with the rest of the classes. No mention of AoE, or ranged skills, or unique support and utilities that a burglar can bring to a group. It sounds a lot like the old burglar with a few tweaks.

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feoktist View Post
    Very interesting read, although leaving many questions:
    1. How do you mean "additional" in this context? Additional to what?
    2. How many points are actually invested into stats vs. skills? (repeating question from Fredelas) There shouldn't be many stat points.
    3. Are there limitations to access certain tiers (e.g. in other game you cannot access tier 2 unless you invest 5 points into tier 1)?
    4. Can you provide more details on "multiple"?
    5. Can you provide more details on "extremely potent"?
    6. If I specialize in QK, how many points do I actually have left at level 85 to spend on other lines? How deep into other lines (points or tiers) can I actually get?
    7. With the trait and skill revamp, what happens to the "Improved Feint Attack"? Is it still a skill off the crit chain providing +7.5% outgoing damage buff effect 2/3 of the time?
    Quote Originally Posted by bastiat1 View Post
    Developers should really use Orion's Minstrel Dev Diary as their guide for any class that is going through a major revamp- which is every class with this update. It was a multi-page detailed description of what was added, subtracted, and just changed. This Dev Diary is near useless.

    Tell me where and what time it has been said that there would be the complete finished information abouteach class, with each trait, each skill and so on???
    The dev-diary should give an overview, some hints, how it will look like - kust think about: the closed beta just started so that there could/will be many changes with the different classes. Why and how should they show the whole information when it isn't completly finished and subject to change? One the one side it is impossible for them to show it how it will look like in the end and if they publish already now alle the information and then later change it, what do you think, will be the uppermost reaction in the forum: that the people are glad about the changes? I think not: When some skills become less potent or get away, the people playing this class will complain that they weakened their class. When some skills become more potent, players which don't play this class and especially creeps (and I sometimes play creep) will complain that they are too powerfull, that the creeps have no chance any more and that the ettenmoors become once more unbalanced and so on...

    So: just be patient and be thankful for this overview which the developers gave you. It's a dev-diary, not a dev-class-guide or something like this...

  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    This is already how it works on live though.
    Sort of.

    I think what we'll end up with is more pronounced trade offs.

    It's very clear from their statements on skills that there *will* be skill unlocks in the trees. So you won't just be losing out on DPS as in a number if you skimp on points in your damage trees - you will lose out on actual skills that cause that damage, and your rotation will be different and weaker.

    For a burg, survivability is not just some mitigation number or avoidance stat; it's tied up in CC. I expect that the full QK burg will lack CC skills and options they currently have. Twist and riddle both fall under the lineup of abilities that Rock describes as MM line abilities; will QK even have easy access to these without losing out on some very powerful high tier buys? If anything, stun dust as described only furthers my suspicion on this.

    It's a shame Wardens will be the last diary, as you have to figure there will be some interesting changes for them (my bet: gambits unlocked by point buy to keep some of the stronger gambits out of the hands of wardens not traited properly. Also there would have to be some mechanic to tie stance benefit to point buy as well).


    Even my Signature is trolling!

  25. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Orodbril View Post
    Tell me where and what time it has been said that there would be the complete finished information abouteach class, with each trait, each skill and so on??? The dev-diary should give an overview, some hints, how it will look like - kust think about: the closed beta just started so that there could/will be many changes with the different classes. Why and how shkould they show the whole information when it isn't completly finished and subject to change?

    So you think there is going to be second round of developer diaries for each class? Good one.
    Adaaon (Minstrel), Gwydionn (Hunter), Tarrann (Burglar)
    [url]http://thenoldor.guildlaunch.com[/url]

 

 
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