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  1. #1
    Sapience is offline Former Community Manager & Harbinger of Soon
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    Developer Diary : Burglar Class Changes in Helm’s Deep

    Hello all! RockX here, and today I’m talking about the Burglar class revamp. I really enjoyed working on the class, as I felt each role could use a little something to really make them shine. Therefore, my main goal was to really home in on what made each of the three Burglar specializations unique and focus gameplay into each line’s strengths. The Quiet Knife line focuses on dealing high burst damage using Stealth and positional skills. The Mischief-Maker line uses the application and removal of Tricks to control and whittle foes down through attrition. The Gambler manipulates chance with Gambles, ensuring an outcome in their favor. Each play-style should feel familiar to existing players, with new skills which offer potent additions to the chosen specialization. [Read The Dev Diary]

  2. #2
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    When is the general tree mechanics diary going to be released discussing how legendarys get transitioned, and the like? =)
    Crell-L85-Champion - Riddermark ; Swego-L85-Burglar ; Kotvi-L95-Runekeeper
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    Deglorion - SoA XP Disabler

  3. #3
    I don't mind spelling and grammatical errors from people posting, but I think that these official releases should be better. Even if no one on the LOTRO staff has time to proofread these, maybe at least someone on the Player's Council could look them over before posting?

    "One of the pain points I wanted to address"
    "pain" should be replaced with "main"

    "Tricks now have a shorter durations"
    "a" should be removed

    with new skills which offer potent additions
    "which" should be replaced with "that"

    "Burglar Class Changes in Helm’s Deep"
    Remove the extra space between "Changes" and "in"

    Fix the last sentence or turn it into two sentences
    -

  4. #4
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    Wow, we've been waiting months for these diaries, and all people can think about is grammar snootery. Eat Shoots and Leave(s), please.

    Thanks for the Burg diary Sapience!
    Et Eärello Endorenna utúlien. Sinome maruvan ar Hildinyar, tenn’ Ambar-metta!

  5. #5
    Gotta say I'm really excited to play alongside a Trickster or Gambler now, they sound like exciting tweaks and twists on the typical 'rogue' archetype, as well as being pretty damn unique sounding. They're very individual and I'm starting to see the goal behind the trait changes now, essentially a case of three classes in one... Or rather one masterclass which branches out.

    Can't wait to read more.

  6. #6
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    I'm really excited about these changes! Can't wait to try out all the builds, but Gambler looks like it will remain my favorite.

    I just have to ask though, where are the pictures? MOAR PICTURES PLZ!!!
    MINSTREL and member of the vocal minority

  7. #7
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    Previously burgs had three main roles, buffs/debuffs, DPS, and CC.

    Now just...one? Burst damage, lower DPS, and...I'm sorry, why would a group want a burg now over a ranged or AoE DPS class? (Whereas before burgs compared more to captains and lore-masters.)

    So, crowd control?? Or am I answered by this mez breaking line...?

    In addition, most tricks now deal some damage as well, allowing the Mischief-maker to both debuff and deal damage at the same time.
    Link to our community LOTRO store google spreadsheet pricelist and conversion rates, please contribute too!: https://goo.gl/wxPqCm

  8. #8
    Ditto on the amscray ollstray... The diary was great. One item not mentioned was the riddle skill. I find it extremely useful when dealing with multiple mobs to riddle one before attacking the other. Where its highly useful in any version of the burglar IMHO is this item going to be available early on a tree or will it be available for all? Any additional info would be welcomed (By me at least

  9. #9
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    Coup de grace and All in sound like very interesting skills. Still I'm also missing the main dev diary about the changes.
    How far can i get into each line?
    How will the restrictions on trait slots for f2p / premium be converted?

    I hope we can get deep enough into each line. The nicest thing in playing a burglar is doing it all together. Start with Aiming and a suprise strike out of stealth. Adding a trick and removing it to get a gamble. I don't want to give up much of that versability.
    [B][U]Gilrain:[/U] [COLOR="red"]Dobric 98 guardian[/COLOR][/B] [COLOR="yellow"]Dobli 30 minstrel[/COLOR] [COLOR="cyan"]Dimbli 18 dwarf champion[/COLOR] [COLOR=#8B4513]Dobriel 15 loremaster[/COLOR]| [B][U]Snowbourn:[/U] [COLOR="orange"]Dobs 100 burglar[/COLOR][/B] [COLOR="yellowgreen"]Dorblin 42 runekeeper[/COLOR] [COLOR="#EE82EE"]Dabeldor 21 captain[/COLOR] [COLOR="#3366ff"]Dobegar 21 hunter[/COLOR] [COLOR="lightgreen"]Dobebrand 17 warden[/COLOR]

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaynith View Post
    Wow, we've been waiting months for these diaries, and all people can think about is grammar
    Which is now, surprisingly, a ToS violation:

    3. Grammar Police.

    Any post or comment made with the intention of embarrassing another player based on spelling, typos, or grammatical errors is not permitted. Not everyone speaks the same language. Keep in mind that the person you are addressing may not be a native speaker.
    I actually like that rule

    as for the diary... felt kind of light. We get 3 specs, all similar to what we had in the past. Details? :P

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by plapete30 View Post
    One item not mentioned was the riddle skill. I find it extremely useful when dealing with multiple mobs to riddle one before attacking the other. Where its highly useful in any version of the burglar IMHO is this item going to be available early on a tree or will it be available for all? Any additional info would be welcomed (By me at least
    RockX previously announced that Riddle is a general skill that all Burglars will have. I'll quote the entire post, as it is quite enlightening:


    So, the "20 skills" issue is something I'd like to address.

    First, it is referring to skills which actively impact gameplay. Things such as teleports, pets, stances, and fluff skills (and probably another category which I'm not thinking of off the top of my head) will not count against that amount.

    Second, the "20 skills" is not a hard and fast number, but more of a general guideline. You may end up with more or less, depending on your specialization.

    Third, each class has a pool of general skills (skills we feel are important to all three specialization lines) and more specific skills. How you choose to invest your traits will have an impact on what skills are available to you. I'll use the Burglar as an example. Please bear in mind some of the specific skills I'm mentioning are new, and we'll discuss their impact at a later time.

    Some general skills every single Burglar will eventually have access to include (but are not limited to): Riddle, Subtle Stab, Double-edged Strike, Reveal Weakness and Hide in Plain Sight. Now, if I choose to specialize as a Gambler, I'll immediately gain access to Lucky Strike and Hedge Your Bet. From here, I could completely fill in the Gambler tree, picking up skills such as Gambler's Advantage, Trip and All In. Or, I could choose to not invest all of my points in Gambler to pick up Stun Dust from the Quiet Knife line and Trick: Dust in the Eyes from the Mischief-maker line.

    The exact number of skills you have will vary, based on how you choose to specialize your character and spend your trait points.


    Source: https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...47#post6882747

    Quote Originally Posted by DobbelB_EU View Post
    How will the restrictions on trait slots for f2p / premium be converted?
    Q5: banjolier: For players who spent TP to unlock trait slots, how will you convert our existing purchases to the new system? #LOTRO
    A5: HoarseDev: Your specialization choice gives you access to bonuses as you spend points. #LOTRO
    A5a: These are unlocked in the same way as the old slots and those purchases carry over to the new system. #LOTRO

    Source: https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...-Class-Changes
    Last edited by DEATHKNYGHT; Sep 05 2013 at 04:29 PM.

  12. #12
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    As a gambler I love the preview on changes, especially the "All in" skill sounds very interesting, I want more info
    I'm a bit worried about how potent gambler bleeds are going to be since warden bleeds tick for 1k and ours tick for max 300 at the moment, and our bleeds are far from viable.
    Mischief maker changes are also interesting.

    Thanks RockX and Sapience.
    [Juregar/Laurelin] [Jureon/Evernight] [Ragetrain/Laurelin]
    Member of Puliveivarit
    I was a corner survivor

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tilting_at_Turbines View Post
    "One of the pain points I wanted to address"
    "pain" should be replaced with "main"
    I suspect "pain points" is correct, as in "One of the most-painful issues I wanted to address..."

    pain point n. a level of difficulty sufficient to motivate someone to seek a solution or an alternative; a problem or difficulty.

  14. #14
    I'm curious to know how many trait point selections provide only a stat increase. This doesn't seem very interesting to me, in terms of choices.

    Perhaps a dev diary giving a general overview of the trait trees would have been helpful before the individual class diaries.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by RJFerret View Post
    Previously burgs had three main roles, buffs/debuffs, DPS, and CC.

    Now just...one? Burst damage, lower DPS, and...I'm sorry, why would a group want a burg now over a ranged or AoE DPS class? (Whereas before burgs compared more to captains and lore-masters.)

    So, crowd control?? Or am I answered by this mez breaking line...?

    The class diary suggested multiple tricks can be used on the same target by a single burglar. This is currently not available by a burg. A burg will likely become an extremely potent debuffer with single-target.

  16. #16
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    Looks pretty interesting so far, though it is hard to get a good idea of what to expect without knowing how it will all come together.

    It sounds like MM will contain most of the CC, including the gamble removals which were previously apart of the Gamble traitline. Quiet Knife will mostly just be Stealth and Burst damage, some of the talents which were originally part of Gambler. And Gambler will still have evasion, gambles, and damage over time which was a part of QK, though how one applies those gambles now is a bit vague.

    Still, it seems like a pretty good place to start. I still bet the majority of burglars will be QK, while Gambler and MM will be more in the minority. But hopefully with the ability to branch out in the other trees, choosing one line won't mean you're completely locked out of another.


    Edit: All-in sounds like an interesting skill in theory, but I wonder how well it will work in practice. Anytime the burglar is fighting a raid boss, or even just a single elite, it seems like using the skill would be a poor choice. Since you won't get any mob defeats, you'll always run into the penalty unless it's used close to the end of the fight.
    Last edited by Lenton; Sep 05 2013 at 04:09 PM.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0b20c000000171132/01008/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]

  17. #17
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    Very interesting changes. I've always liked Gambler, due to its fun and unique style, and it sounds like it is about to get even more fun to play.

    -Bel
    Belnavar - Captain - 105 - Brandywine - Leader of Keepers of the Palantiri

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lenton View Post

    Edit: All-in sounds like an interesting skill in theory, but I wonder how well it will work in practice. Anytime the burglar is fighting a raid boss, or even just a single elite, it seems like using the skill would be a poor choice. Since you won't get any mob defeats, you'll always run into the penalty unless it's used close to the end of the fight.
    Maybe raid boss will not exist anymore... We already know that big battles aren't raid in fact.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by timmyloo22546 View Post
    The class diary suggested multiple tricks can be used on the same target by a single burglar.
    Where does it suggest that? can you quote it please because im not seeing it (will reread it after posting this). That would be one hell of a change indeed.

  20. #20
    RockX is offline The Lord of the Rings Online Team
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thorgrum View Post
    Where does it suggest that? can you quote it please because im not seeing it (will reread it after posting this). That would be one hell of a change indeed.
    "Mischief-makers can even use Trickster to both allow Tricks to apply to multiple targets at once and have multiple Tricks on a target at once."

    ...Does it count as a quote if I'm quoting myself?

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by RockX View Post
    "Mischief-makers can even use Trickster to both allow Tricks to apply to multiple targets at once and have multiple Tricks on a target at once."

    ...Does it count as a quote if I'm quoting myself?
    Yes it counts, thanks man. That's a pretty sweet change to Mischief never ran it, that's going to be pretty powerful in the moors. Thanks !

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by hucklebarry View Post
    Which is now, surprisingly, a ToS violation:



    I actually like that rule

    as for the diary... felt kind of light. We get 3 specs, all similar to what we had in the past. Details? :P
    I do fully agree that one should take a more relaxed position when having discussions with other players in the forums. I also feel, however, that one should rightfully hold official communication releases by the company to a higher standard, as they reflect on the professionalism and care of detail of both the company and its representatives. That being said, I do feel the poster who brought up the points was being somewhat nit-pickish on most of them over all, and I agree with the sentiment of the poster right after.

    As for the diary itself, I found how the lines were being broken down interesting and liked that thought was given (as I read it at least) to having some of the more common utility skills available early on so to allow some flexibility when deciding on how to build a spec. My Burg is not that advanced, but seeing this, I'm a bit less apprehensive on the changes to the Mini or LM.

    ==Nec Hostium Timete, Nec Amicum Recusate==
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  23. #23
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    One question about Coup de Grâce with the Quiet Knife:

    What is the Cooldown of this Skill? Because it could disbalance the situation in the ettenmoors if you can use it much more often than the normal battle vanish, and then one oder a group of burglars are attacking one mp out of a group, vanishes, targeting and attacking another one, vanishing again and propably after these two vanishes (1st by Coup de Grâce, 2nd by BV) Coup de Grâce has no Cooldown anymore and they could attack a third one and then he/she/they vanishs/vanish without any chance for the mps to kill one of them and this especially if the burglar has a relatively extreme high damage just out of the stealth...

    Quote Originally Posted by RJFerret View Post
    Previously burgs had three main roles, buffs/debuffs, DPS, and CC.

    Now just...one? Burst damage, lower DPS, and...I'm sorry, why would a group want a burg now over a ranged or AoE DPS class? (Whereas before burgs compared more to captains and lore-masters.)

    So, crowd control?? Or am I answered by this mez breaking line...?
    Doesn't sound it to you that the Mischief-maker is responsible for CC and Buffs/Debuffs?:

    While a Mischief-maker might not have the damage capability of the other two lines, they more than make up for it WITH THEIR ABILITY TO HINDER MULTIPLE FOES AT A GIVEN TIME.




    The Gamblers All In sounds interesting, too. ^^

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Lenton View Post
    Edit: All-in sounds like an interesting skill in theory, but I wonder how well it will work in practice. Anytime the burglar is fighting a raid boss, or even just a single elite, it seems like using the skill would be a poor choice. Since you won't get any mob defeats, you'll always run into the penalty unless it's used close to the end of the fight.
    Probably need to think about this in conjunction with saved alt specs. If you're fighting a single target raid boss you might not use gambler anyway, quiet knife would probably still be the best bet, or at least wouldn't use all in. But for a more complex fight, like say Shadow t2c, timing the all-in buff to boost the hell out of your dps on the boss after downing an add would be exceedingly useful(of course same could be argued for qk, being able to reenter stealth and come back to the boss).

    Don't know how this will play out in the end, but color me intrigued and mildly hopeful. Hope Rock's creativity in developing these changes isn't unique to him, hoping Deviled_egg has plenty of awesome in store for the guardians, which, last I'd checked, we'd all agreed to rename Buardians...where is our diary!?

  25. #25
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    I was expecting a full out report on the burglar's trees skills and traits, even though you summed up what each tree is going to be about.


    Please tell us that a skill that increases our morale and evade a bit isn't all what is being added to improve the current squishiness that burglars face as a melee class. TBH evade can sometimes be useless in the moors. What are you going to do with skills such as touch and go. Also please fix hide in plain sight, after using that skill in the moors i can easily be tracked/popped out of stealth. Make it so that we can actually escape a zergy situation.


    On a positive note im really glad Mischief-maker is actually going to be useful, that is the tree that i could actually enjoy the most and make it my main tree line. I think that control mixed with debuffs and a bit of damage could be really fun. Just please make that tree line useful for the moors. I love the idea of being a debuffer/buffer.

 

 
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