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  1. #451
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    Quote Originally Posted by manstan View Post
    You mean besides you being in a very elite group; of possibly 1, that actually sees that sort of drop rate, none. Read back through this thread, how many people are even getting close to the drop rate you see? Anyone? It seems most peoples drop rates are between slim and none. I'm not sure why you seem to be disregarding that while flaunting your extraordinary drop rate in everyone's faces. All you are proving is YOU are getting an extraordinary drop rate, not that people are some how "doing it wrong".
    I don't know, as noone else is posting actual numbers. I'm posting factual numbers, not flaunting and you snippy attitude with me has been wearing thin on me for the last week or two. If you don't like what I post, set me to ignore, as I intend to post drop rate findings as I see fit until one of two things happen: I get all I want from the barterers or the event ends. Problem solved on your end, as no one else has complained and a couple others have even stated that they liked I was posting actual numbers.

    If we put your experience at one end and no drops at the other end we would probably see that most people would fall in to the bottom 1/8th not in the top 1/8th where you seem to reside.
    Again, I don't know other people's numbers as they aren't posting them. I don't know how badly they're actually doing. All I know is that I'm doing okay and people I party with, be they kinmates or total strangers, are doing okay. Why are they doing okay? Because they're getting high numbers of kills to increase their odds when they run with me.

    My experience shows me the kill rate has little to do with it. If you only get a 1% chance per kill, yet 100% of the time seem to be in the 99% no drop, the number of kills you get means nothing.
    If it was based on a % chance per kill they could have easily set it up so there was a higher chance at drops from on level, or elite mobs. By my experience mob level or class has no bearing on it.
    Over the coarse of an hour is seems I only get 3-4 chances at a bag, and 3 of them are no bag. Whether I kill 10 or 500 I am still only going to get apx 1 bag an hour.
    They could have adjusted drop rates for Elites, maybe, but it doesn't mean they had to. Your opinion of what they should have done has little bearing on what they have done. It doesn't negate the fact that bags drop based on a percentage number per kill. If you killed 100 enemies over the course of an hour, you'd have 100 chances to get a bag. Because it is a 1-3% chance, you have a 1-3% chance per kill. That does not mean that 1-3% of your kills will drop a bag. That's not how percentages work.

    I've made no secret about how fast I can kill and for how long I can go about it, thus why my results are vastly better than yours. You say you kill upwards of one hundred or more enemies in an hour. I kill over 800 in that same time-frame. Inevitably, higher leveled characters do have the advantage as we have a larger choice of places to kill and kill enemies in those places at a much faster rate. Low leveled characters are more limited in their farming locations unless they group up with a high level. Yes, I've teleported level 20s to Sarnur or 40s to Dunland where I did all the work, and yes, they did as well if not better than I have when it came to bag drops.

    Furthermore, it is extremely unlikely Turbine has implemented an "X Drop per hour" feature. I can't think of anything else that drops on a timed schedule in LotRO, though I may be wrong. Everything runs on the RNG system in terms of loot, AFAIK.
    Tarphindiel~Hu~100, Tolella~Mi~86, Ryeberry~Gu~80, Torfrik~Rk~80, Arindis~Be~60
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  2. #452
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    Quote Originally Posted by manstan View Post
    You mean besides you being in a very elite group; of possibly 1, that actually sees that sort of drop rate, none. Read back through this thread, how many people are even getting close to the drop rate you see? Anyone? It seems most peoples drop rates are between slim and none. I'm not sure why you seem to be disregarding that while flaunting your extraordinary drop rate in everyone's faces. All you are proving is YOU are getting an extraordinary drop rate, not that people are some how "doing it wrong".

    If we put your experience at one end and no drops at the other end we would probably see that most people would fall in to the bottom 1/8th not in the top 1/8th where you seem to reside.

    My experience shows me the kill rate has little to do with it. If you only get a 1% chance per kill, yet 100% of the time seem to be in the 99% no drop, the number of kills you get means nothing.
    If it was based on a % chance per kill they could have easily set it up so there was a higher chance at drops from on level, or elite mobs. By my experience mob level or class has no bearing on it.
    Over the coarse of an hour is seems I only get 3-4 chances at a bag, and 3 of them are no bag. Whether I kill 10 or 500 I am still only going to get apx 1 bag an hour.
    Ever heard of independent probability? I think the majority of people are having a steady 1.5-2.5% drop rate so you are probably going to get a bag for every 40-60 kills. You could get 5 bags in 5 kills and not get another bag for another 300 kills. That's just how it works. LethalLethality is not the only person who is getting this drop rate. Sorry if you are having bad luck, but there is no need to attack him for something you perceive to be bragging (I think it's pretty obvious to most people that he isn't).

  3. #453
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    "Again, I don't know other people's numbers as they aren't posting them." LethalLethality

    Funny, I thought you were actually reading this thread, my bad. So go back to page one and actually read this thread where people give their pitifully low drop rates. Note, no drops mean 0% rate.

    My issue is your observations does not support my observations. You say increasing the kill rate garners you more bags, that has not been my experience. My kill rate as I have said repeatedly yet you continue to disregard, has nothing to do with the number of bags that drop over the coarse of an hour for me. I spent 6 hours killing hundreds of mobs and got no bags, yet in a 30 minute walk where I may have killed a dozen I got 3. So my experience tells me kill rate has nothing to do with drop rate.
    You can show me the math all day, but it doesn't increase my drop rate. I know there is a % chance per kill, for you it may be 1% but it seems for most it is .00001%. Even by that raising your kill rate should raise the bag drops per hour, but my experience says otherwise.

    Now I have already conceded you have a comparatively extraordinary drop rate, why can't you concede other players don't?
    You say increasing kill rate garners you more bags. I say other wise.
    You tell me where you are getting this extraordinary drop rate and I go there and find out the mobs don't respawn fast enough to get the number of kills you claim, so you go some place you can. Now what excuse are you going to give when I go to the same area and kill the same mobs at the same kill rate yet still only get that apx 1 bag an hour? That I'm playing the wrong class? Race? Using the wrong weapon? Not grouping up? Not drinking the right soda while playing?

    Why can't you just admit not everyone is doing as well as you? Is it really that difficult?
    Now look at this thread is anyone arguing with you but me? And I'm just plain argumentative to the core. You know what this tells me? No one cares what your extraordinary kill rate/bag drop rate is. What they care about is how bad theirs is.

  4. #454
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    Quote Originally Posted by manstan View Post
    "Again, I don't know other people's numbers as they aren't posting them." LethalLethality

    Funny, I thought you were actually reading this thread, my bad. So go back to page one and actually read this thread where people give their pitifully low drop rates. Note, no drops mean 0% rate.

    My issue is your observations does not support my observations. You say increasing the kill rate garners you more bags, that has not been my experience. My kill rate as I have said repeatedly yet you continue to disregard, has nothing to do with the number of bags that drop over the coarse of an hour for me. I spent 6 hours killing hundreds of mobs and got no bags, yet in a 30 minute walk where I may have killed a dozen I got 3. So my experience tells me kill rate has nothing to do with drop rate.
    You can show me the math all day, but it doesn't increase my drop rate. I know there is a % chance per kill, for you it may be 1% but it seems for most it is .00001%. Even by that raising your kill rate should raise the bag drops per hour, but my experience says otherwise.

    Now I have already conceded you have a comparatively extraordinary drop rate, why can't you concede other players don't?
    You say increasing kill rate garners you more bags. I say other wise.
    You tell me where you are getting this extraordinary drop rate and I go there and find out the mobs don't respawn fast enough to get the number of kills you claim, so you go some place you can. Now what excuse are you going to give when I go to the same area and kill the same mobs at the same kill rate yet still only get that apx 1 bag an hour? That I'm playing the wrong class? Race? Using the wrong weapon? Not grouping up? Not drinking the right soda while playing?

    Why can't you just admit not everyone is doing as well as you? Is it really that difficult?
    Now look at this thread is anyone arguing with you but me? And I'm just plain argumentative to the core. You know what this tells me? No one cares what your extraordinary kill rate/bag drop rate is. What they care about is how bad theirs is.
    Could you provide evidence for this? For just about anyone who has actually logged how many bags have dropped and how many kills it took them to reach that number they have recorded about a 2% drop rate. You can't try to say that the number of kills does not affect the number of bags that drop based almost exclusively on your own experience and then try to discount LethalLethality because he's going by his own experiences by saying that he has an extraordinary drop rate compared to others when in fact you are just comparing him to yourself. This thread was originally started during the Farmer's Faire because the bounder's bags used to have a drop rate of 5% or so then got nerfed to about 1% which was comparatively low to the previous drop rate which got raised to about 2% later.
    Quote Originally Posted by manstan View Post
    My issue is your observations does not support my observations.
    Interesting... So you're never wrong and he's always wrong? You're superior and other people's observations aren't valid? Have you provided any actual statistics at any point during this thread? I would be more sympathetic to you if more people reported killing 600 mobs without getting a single bounder's bag, but most people who have bothered to log statistics have reported around a 2% drop rate. I realize that there are people who have bad luck; I mean, I've ran 500 annuminas instances and 300 fornost instances without a gold class item for my champ. But to say because you have bad luck that everyone else must have a low drop rate is ridiculous.
    Last edited by dselden; Oct 14 2013 at 05:37 PM.

  5. #455
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    "But to say because you have bad luck that everyone else must have a low drop rate is ridiculous." dselden

    Have you read the first part of this thread?

    "So you're never wrong and he's always wrong?" dselden

    I think you have that backward.

    "You're superior and other people's observations aren't valid?" dselden

    I never said that, in fact I thought I was doing a good job of not saying it.

    " I would be more sympathetic to you if more people reported killing 600 mobs without getting a single bounder's bag,"dselden

    Once again, go back to the beginning of this thread

    "but most people who have bothered to log statistics have reported around a 2% drop rate." dselden

    I didn't know LethalLethality correlated to most people.

    "You can't try to say that the number of kills does not affect the number of bags that drop based almost exclusively on your own experience and then try to discount LethalLethality because he's going by his own experiences by saying that he has an extraordinary drop rate compared to others when in fact you are just comparing him to yourself". dselden

    So he can and it's ok, but it's wrong for me to do the same? See bias.
    Once again, go back to the beginning of this thread and count the number of people that posted they are getting no bags. Then count how many are getting very few even though they play for hours and kill hundreds. I think if you had read the entire thread you would see I am not the minority. More over go back and read how fast LethalLethality discounted anyone griping about a low drop rate. He was fast to blame them not the game for the bad drop rate. "I'm getting X bags, for X kills and if you aren't you are doing it wrong". {well the forum is glitching up big time right now. just sort of arbitrarily putting punctuation and words where it likes not where I am trying to type so please disregard weirdness at the end} non the less, I have never accused anyone of doing anything wrong and I went out of my way to point out I was speaking from my experience and my point of view. If some one else had done the same rather then trying to tell every one what they needed to be doing because they were doing it wrong, there never would have been an argument here. n. }
    "..}

  6. #456
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    I'm getting the usual amount, 20-30 bags per hour... They buffed the rate up again.

    Glorgnorbor
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  7. #457
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    Quote Originally Posted by robbie1435 View Post
    I'm getting the usual amount, 20-30 bags per hour... They buffed the rate up again.

    Glorgnorbor
    Happy Halloween!
    I'll have to check it once I have real time to play. Mowing today so I'm just in and out crafting.

  8. #458
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    Quote Originally Posted by manstan View Post
    "But to say because you have bad luck that everyone else must have a low drop rate is ridiculous." dselden
    Have you read the first part of this thread?
    Have you paid attention from page 12 onward? Yes, the drop rate got nerfed to 1% for a while. It's around 2% right now.

    Quote Originally Posted by manstan View Post
    "So you're never wrong and he's always wrong?" dselden
    I think you have that backward.
    When does he say that you are wrong? You try to paint him as a braggart for chronicling his drops when he has been doing it for basically the entire thread. He posted low numbers multiple times and began to post higher numbers (which are in fact the current norm) once the drop rate appeared to rise to 2%.

    Quote Originally Posted by manstan View Post
    "You're superior and other people's observations aren't valid?" dselden
    I never said that, in fact I thought I was doing a good job of not saying it.
    Then why would you say ,"My issue is your observations does not support my observations." How can you get any more arrogant than that than just to assume that he is wrong based on almost only your observations? From page 12 on, there are not many people that report low drop rates.

    Quote Originally Posted by manstan View Post
    "I would be more sympathetic to you if more people reported killing 600 mobs without getting a single bounder's bag,"dselden
    Once again, go back to the beginning of this thread.
    Why would I go back to the beginning of the thread when the drop rate got increased half-way through?

    Quote Originally Posted by manstan View Post
    "but most people who have bothered to log statistics have reported around a 2% drop rate." dselden
    I didn't know LethalLethality correlated to most people.
    Start at page 12... Many people confirm it; Not just LethalLethality.

    Quote Originally Posted by manstan View Post
    "You can't try to say that the number of kills does not affect the number of bags that drop based almost exclusively on your own experience and then try to discount LethalLethality because he's going by his own experiences by saying that he has an extraordinary drop rate compared to others when in fact you are just comparing him to yourself". dselden

    So he can and it's ok, but it's wrong for me to do the same? See bias.
    Once again, go back to the beginning of this thread and count the number of people that posted they are getting no bags. Then count how many are getting very few even though they play for hours and kill hundreds. I think if you had read the entire thread you would see I am not the minority. More over go back and read how fast LethalLethality discounted anyone griping about a low drop rate. He was fast to blame them not the game for the bad drop rate. "I'm getting X bags, for X kills and if you aren't you are doing it wrong". {well the forum is glitching up big time right now. just sort of arbitrarily putting punctuation and words where it likes not where I am trying to type so please disregard weirdness at the end} non the less, I have never accused anyone of doing anything wrong and I went out of my way to point out I was speaking from my experience and my point of view. If some one else had done the same rather then trying to tell every one what they needed to be doing because they were doing it wrong, there never would have been an argument here. n. }
    "..}
    Why would I pay attention to the drop rate at the beginning of the thread when it has clearly been raised? I see no place where LethalLethality says anyone is doing something wrong if they aren't getting the same drop rate. You quite obviously asserted that since LethalLethality's findings didn't match yours they are invalid while neglecting the other people from page 12 onward who confirm there being around a 2% drop rate.

    There was a stretch where I didn't get a single bag for 1327 kills with my rk in Moria. Does that mean that there was a 0% chance? No. Usually, the numbers will average out so one will end up getting 2 bags per 100 kills.

  9. #459
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    I made no such assumptions, nether did I say LethalLethality's was wrong. All I said was his experiences and mine are quite dissimilar.

    You are just looking for a fight, and as much as I love a good argument, this isn't one. You seem to misread or read in quite too much in what I say.

  10. #460
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    well for Manstan my drop rate is similar if not spot on to LethalLethality's. I ran wight slayer deed teir 2 yesterday in Trollshaws on my 83 warden. killing everything in sight i netted at least 12 bags.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0720600000012d468/01004/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]

  11. #461
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    3 hours, 580 kills, no bags.

  12. #462
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    Quote Originally Posted by manstan View Post
    I made no such assumptions, nether did I say LethalLethality's was wrong. All I said was his experiences and mine are quite dissimilar.

    You are just looking for a fight, and as much as I love a good argument, this isn't one. You seem to misread or read in quite too much in what I say.
    Fair enough. I guess I could have misconstrued some of the things you said as I interpreted it to be an attack at LethalLethality. Have a good day

  13. #463
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    data:
    just ran the 3 hybold crafting instances:

    mines --- 2 bags
    imping --- 1 bag
    scholar --- 1 bag
    around 120 kills net was 4 bags
    will keep posting data
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0720600000012d468/01004/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]

  14. #464
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    Quote Originally Posted by dselden View Post
    Fair enough. I guess I could have misconstrued some of the things you said as I interpreted it to be an attack at LethalLethality. Have a good day
    Oh no, not an attack; I get nasty on the attack. And thanks, that is a courtesy you don't see often on forums.

    Now I can be a smart #$%, like "870 kills in an hour? What spray were you using on those cockroaches?"
    Or snide "870 kills in an hour? Pull the other one for a while this leg is getting too long".
    But when it comes down to it 870 kills in an hour is just mind boggling. I don't see how you could get it with out area of effect attacks that kill in one hit. I got that 580 in 3 hours by running around the orc/goblin came in southern north downs. I ran in circles for 3 hours, run, stop, kill everything, repeat. Boring as all get out. I just don't see how some one could do it for hours on end day after day.

    None the less, 83 hoar mantels; yes that sounds like a fake mink stole, in an hour, 1 bag. As a guestemet that is 650 kills in 4 hours and 1 bag.
    I'm just glad I'm not trying to farm bags for anything.

  15. #465
    This is just too funny. I've played with Lethal. He is incredibly fast. Yes, in most areas he is high lvl enough to one-shot everything, often getting small groups with one "Rain of Arrows". He KNOWS the areas, knows when and where the spawns are, knows the shortest route to cover the spawns efficiently. Trust me, the only way to hope to keep up with him is to go on follow, with your bags open, dumping junk to make room for the money drops...

    Also, I've been with him several times farming Bounders Bags. He gets all credit for both my horses and the housing items I've gotten. (I'll keep credit for the relic paks I picked up, as I do sometimes get some bags on my own... )

  16. #466
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    Quote Originally Posted by manstan View Post
    But when it comes down to it 870 kills in an hour is just mind boggling. I don't see how you could get it with out area of effect attacks that kill in one hit. I got that 580 in 3 hours by running around the orc/goblin came in southern north downs. I ran in circles for 3 hours, run, stop, kill everything, repeat. Boring as all get out. I just don't see how some one could do it for hours on end day after day.

    It's not difficult, when you choose an area that caters to your class. Hunters have a couple of AoE attacks such as Rain of Arrows/Thorns and Split Shot which hit multiple enemies. Use them on enemies you can easily one or two shot kill and you're killing entire groups quickly, especially when you land a critical which causes the cooldown for Rain of Arrows to reset allowing a followup shot.

    Even without Rain of Arrows, my go-to attacks when farming are Quickshot plus the occasional Penetrating shot. Most of the time, Quickshot will kill an enemy in less than three hits. My strategy is to open with quickshot on solo mobs.
    If the mob dies, I go to the next.
    If the mob survives with more than half health, I fire off a penetrating shot which tends to do the damage needed.
    If the mob survives but has less than half health, I fire off another quickshot which usually kills the enemy.

    Both quick shot and penetrating shot has zero or near zero induction time and zero cooldown time, so used in conjunction with Rain of Arrows/Thorns on entire groups of enemies, it does cause very fast kills in an area that you have vastly outleveled.

    It takes five to six minutes to complete a loop and there's over one hundred enemies in that loop, if I'm not mistaken.

    I would post a video of a loop of Sarnur Great Hall. However, I do not have good internet. My upload speed is a piddly .60 Mbps so any video that's good enough quality to see that's also more than a couple minutes long would take an hour or more to upload.

    As for doing it hours on end, day after day, I don't. I do an hour (two tops) every few days or whenever the mood strikes me to do it. It helps to have friends to talk to over TeamSpeak while doing it though as it breaks up monotony.

    Edit: As Flaxie above me has stated, since she's actually run with me on several occasions, I CAN kill fast and those who do run with me do get bag drops too. I know this because more often than not, I have to tell her she has gotten a bag because she won't see it. I'm sure you'll take this as flaunting, even though it's not, but playing the way I've played has netted me horses for three characters so far as well as UTKs for nine of my eleven characters (two have superior tools since they're max level). It has helped Flaxie net her two horses along with many other barter items. Not only that, she's gotten reputation items to max several factions for each of her characters. Thorin's Hall, Wardens of Annuminas and Council of the North I know she's maxed. She's also made a ton of Gold running with me. Anywhere from four to ten gold depending on where we run. We don't farm solely for bounders bags as that's just plain discouraging. What we do farm for is rep items and anything else that will make money. At least, that's how I look at it to get my mind off of low drop rates.


    Edit #2: If you're willing to make a character on Gladden and get him to his 20s, I'd happily take you for one of my runs, and we can see how well you do at those rates.

    Edit #3: Currently in the process of uploading a six minute video. Not great quality but should do well enough to get the general idea of how quickly I'm able to kill enemies.

    Edit #4: Video here- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oszfL...ature=youtu.be
    Last edited by LethalLethality; Oct 15 2013 at 11:35 AM.
    Tarphindiel~Hu~100, Tolella~Mi~86, Ryeberry~Gu~80, Torfrik~Rk~80, Arindis~Be~60
    Meleras~Wd~50, Minethril~Ca~49, Diorwen~Ch~44, Indiria~Lm~38, Alanda~Bu~32
    And Fourteen Other Alts
    Founder of Gladden's "The Fellowship of the Ping"

  17. #467
    Well I did another run through Barrow Downs & was there allot longer killing because it was taking forever to complete the deed Lore Of The Cardolan & this time I only got 4 bags!
    It's not Teal... it's [SIZE=3][COLOR=#00ffff][B]CYAN[/B][/COLOR][/SIZE]!

  18. #468
    I could have been reallllll lucky but I found that in the Starter zone for Hobbits and Men that the spiders drop a bag about 1 for every 8 kills. I ran 4 characters through the starter zone yesterday and it was pretty consistent. I stayed in the spider spawn area and picked up enough bags for UTKs for every character. When you get high enough level (12ish) you can one shot the spiders with your starting equipment.
    Irming Silvertree

  19. #469
    I went thru 5-6 mans and got one and the worst part is I can't drop it and probably won't use it. I don't use cosmetics or pvp or use the stores except to but expacs on sale, so how do i get rid of it?
    Mean what you say and say what you mean! If you don't there are always consequences!

  20. #470
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaGere View Post
    I went thru 5-6 mans and got one and the worst part is I can't drop it and probably won't use it. I don't use cosmetics or pvp or use the stores except to but expacs on sale, so how do i get rid of it?
    Get rid of what? The bounder's bag? Just right click it to add tokens to your wallet and remove the bag from your inventory.
    Tarphindiel~Hu~100, Tolella~Mi~86, Ryeberry~Gu~80, Torfrik~Rk~80, Arindis~Be~60
    Meleras~Wd~50, Minethril~Ca~49, Diorwen~Ch~44, Indiria~Lm~38, Alanda~Bu~32
    And Fourteen Other Alts
    Founder of Gladden's "The Fellowship of the Ping"

  21. #471
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    "I don't use cosmetics or pvp or use the stores except to but expacs on sale, so how do i get rid of it? "
    Just open it. The tokens go in to your wallet yet take up no space. No one says you have to use the tokens, but you are really missing out on something if you don't get the universal tool kit. Which in my opinion is the most useful item they have available for bounders tokens.

  22. #472
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    About an hour of Golfimbul's Hole netted me 130 tokens out of 12 bags.

    No idea how many kills, but several hundreds is a decent guesstimate

  23. #473
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    Quote Originally Posted by LethalLethality View Post
    Edit #3: Currently in the process of uploading a six minute video. Not great quality but should do well enough to get the general idea of how quickly I'm able to kill enemies.

    Edit #4: Video here- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oszfL...ature=youtu.be
    Just looking at your video my killrate in Golfimbul's Hole is higher. I oneshot with my bow while running a repeating optimal circuit.

    The downside is that Sarnur's has the upper hand on other loot, like rep items. You make a good bit of coin in the process.

  24. #474
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    1,044
    drops are being weird, had 2 days ago 3 drops an hour, last night a single one...
    Flixxer - Hunter - Imladris - 100 R7 ---- Danielleth - Minstrel - Imladris - 22
    Zaireth - Rune-keeper - Imladris - 73 -- Ariannasophia - Warden - Imladris - 14
    Flixxer - Champion - Eldar - 54

  25. #475
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    2 Waterbank Road, Eryn Lelryn, Falathlorn Homesteads
    Posts
    1,875
    Quote Originally Posted by Rainothon View Post
    Just looking at your video my killrate in Golfimbul's Hole is higher. I oneshot with my bow while running a repeating optimal circuit.

    The downside is that Sarnur's has the upper hand on other loot, like rep items. You make a good bit of coin in the process.
    That's north of the Greenfields, right? Haven't thought about that as a farming spot, but if so, that'd be a great place for a lower level to farm.

    But yeah, the loot from Sarnur is much better, which is why I go there. I like to be assured something for my time spent farming, should I not get bags.
    Tarphindiel~Hu~100, Tolella~Mi~86, Ryeberry~Gu~80, Torfrik~Rk~80, Arindis~Be~60
    Meleras~Wd~50, Minethril~Ca~49, Diorwen~Ch~44, Indiria~Lm~38, Alanda~Bu~32
    And Fourteen Other Alts
    Founder of Gladden's "The Fellowship of the Ping"

 

 
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