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  1. #1
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    Please educate yourselves about captains...

    (disclaimer, I dont focus on the yellow traitline too much in this post due to me feeling like its not in a very strong spot right now, hopefully with the new class updates it'll get better! I do however use some yellow traits regardless of if I'm redline or blueline specced so I know it has potential)

    I see people all the time saying a captains main role is a healer.

    No.

    Our main role is a support, we have multiple uses outside of the blue line. A truly good captain who knows about each traitline(not very many captains do these days) can dps just as well as he can heal, I've been playing my captain for 4 years now and I've gone solo, group, raid. I've gone thru blue line phases, I've gone thru red line phases and I've tried out yellow line multiple times. I decided to practice both healing and damage for a week and take notes on the numbers I saw, shockingly..the numbers were nearly identical. Oh wait thats not very shocking..and let me tell you why,

    Captains weren't designed solely to heal, nor were they designed solely to dps or tank, we have multiple traitlines that we can use to fill each of those roles equally, or mix them and be a hybrid of dps and heals., or heals and tank(other combos don't work that great from my experience.)

    We're the support class! The blue traitline is just as good for healing as the red one is for dps, saying captains cant dps might as well be saying they cant heal because a good captain can do both equally well.

    Captains aren't healers, get that silly idea out of your head, we're support.
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  2. #2
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    While I agree that captains are not just healers, they are definitely not DPS. The DPS numbers aren't bad, but when compared to any other class that is also in DPS mode (and assuming equal gear and skill) the captain has the lowest DPS of any class. It's close with guardians single target, but even guards pull away quite a bit when it's an AoE situation.
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  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by OruiFarimur View Post
    Captains aren't healers, get that silly idea out of your head, we're support.
    Sadly i've met cappys that can heal better than some actual healers... i've had the pleasure of being healed/buffed by said cappys and i would trust my internetlife with their's over some of the healers i've met, no they arent main healers, no they arent main dpsers, yes they CAN do both, but im sure that a captains healing capabilities (even if compared to their dps) is better, over a longer term, than it's DPS, i dont know it could just be me, but
    i appreciate a good cappy healing me, while the mini/rk is sleeping, over a cappy dpsing, im not bashing on their DPS but having a cappy as an off-healer in a group instance is nice
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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by TinDragon View Post
    they are definitely not DPS.
    I never claimed they were, but I did claim that their ability to dps is just as good as their ability to heal, but since every class can dps in this game the heals are better in groups and a bit more noticeable than the dps. I figured out a rotation/trait set-up that allows my dps to average 1.8k per 1 minute parse and even getting a 9.7k crit on a lucky shadows lament.
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barney1119 View Post
    Sadly i've met cappys that can heal better than some actual healers...
    A good minstrel or RK will outheal a good captain. A bad rk or minstrel should play a champion.
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  6. #6
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    In some raids, Captains have the potential to heal more than any other healing class (like BfE T2C), but they do not have the potential to out-DPS any DPS class. Not even close.
    So it makes more sense to go for mainly healing than mainly DPS.
    At least, where healing is needed. If healing is not required, might as well go red.
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  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by OruiFarimur View Post
    A good minstrel or RK will outheal a good captain. A bad rk or minstrel should play a champion.
    I have an RK and a Mini myself, and i heal rather well on them some that i have grouped with might say, i love healing on my RK, not so much on my mini but meh, i've never had the patience to get a captain toon out of the level 30's, im just not used to the DPS of them so i get bored of them, maybe if I leveled with friends it would be a different story, regardless of that you cant deny the fact that some people are just bad at healing and others are not even if they arent on a main healing class
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  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by OruiFarimur View Post
    I never claimed they were, but I did claim that their ability to dps is just as good as their ability to heal, but since every class can dps in this game the heals are better in groups and a bit more noticeable than the dps. I figured out a rotation/trait set-up that allows my dps to average 1.8k per 1 minute parse and even getting a 9.7k crit on a lucky shadows lament.
    1.8k dps on what? and with aoe what is it? Is 1.8k hps good for captains these days?

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by OruiFarimur View Post
    I never claimed they were, but I did claim that their ability to dps is just as good as their ability to heal, but since every class can dps in this game the heals are better in groups and a bit more noticeable than the dps. I figured out a rotation/trait set-up that allows my dps to average 1.8k per 1 minute parse and even getting a 9.7k crit on a lucky shadows lament.
    Emphasis mine

    That depends on what you mean with "just as good".

    1.8k DPS is prob around 60% of what your avarage champ does on a 1m parse (champs correct me if I'm way off here). So that would mean that you would be around 60% of the HPS of a mini or RK. And I'm pretty sure we are better healers than that.

    Quote Originally Posted by xDementedx View Post
    1.8k dps on what? and with aoe what is it? Is 1.8k hps good for captains these days?
    That depends entirely on the situation. I had 2,2k in BfE T2C, but if you get enough defeat events there's no problem staying around 3k.
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  10. #10
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    HPS is also a tricky thing to measure accurately, at least compared to DPS. In something like BfE T2C that number is probably accurate, but you may also see something like 3k in Bells, and most of those heals are being wasted on people that're already full health. That's the main reason we'll technically outheal any class but a Harmony mini: the overheals. (We don't outheal the Harmony mini even on HPS because they do the same thing with their Coda as we do with our Rallying Cry.)

    On the note of DPS, in the correct situation DPS classes can hit 5k. That's what... captains doing 36% of a DPS class? The argument can't even be made that their ability to DPS is as good as their ability to heal, especially since heals go much further (as PC tend to have a lower morale pool than even landscape mobs, to say nothing of instance mobs).
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  11. #11
    The reality is the varied raid/group demands make trait adjustments a pretty big deal for captains. Tailoring ourselves to the specific challenges of a wide variety of situations is one of our strengths.

    And it's a good point about the overheals...max output is not always max effectiveness. Our ability to focus our heals where needed is weak compared to the main heal classes.
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  12. #12
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    Anyone who claims that captains can out-heal minstrels and RK's without a very specific situation and build is in denial, a mini or rk that goes all out healing will do better than a captain, that doesn't mean captains arent good healers though, but our heals do less than true healing classes, and our dps naturally does less than true dps classes classes. The main reasons we have higher numbers for healing in groups than damage, we have group heals and little aoe. Single target it's fair game.
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  13. #13
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    While I'll admit, our heals in groups are 9/10 times more useful than our dps, due to so many dps classes. But depending on the situation we can do just as well with both heals and dps. Most the people who are saying our heals are better than dps, say "Oh in this specific raid with all theses defeat responses.." It's an unfair way to compare.
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by OruiFarimur View Post
    While I'll admit, our heals in groups are 9/10 times more useful than our dps, due to so many dps classes. But depending on the situation we can do just as well with both heals and dps. Most the people who are saying our heals are better than dps, say "Oh in this specific raid with all theses defeat responses.." It's an unfair way to compare.
    Can you think of any current content where you don't get a lot of defeat responses? Smaug would be the only one I can think of where people are taking constant damage without things dying.
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by TinDragon View Post
    Can you think of any current content where you don't get a lot of defeat responses? Smaug would be the only one I can think of where people are taking constant damage without things dying.
    Think about this, while a captain is waiting for a defeat response or a CD, a mini could be spamming heals so fast you couldnt even keep track, I'm not saying captains are bad healers, but the can perform in other areas too and do it just as well as healing.
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  16. #16
    Would it be too far off topic to ask how much hps a captain can generate for a single target? I'm guessing traits and defeat responses and who's got Shield-brother and whether or not your gear swapping can cause the number to vary, but say the tank has done a good job of holding aggro and he/she's the only one who needs heals. How much can a captain reasonably sustain on just one single person? Not best case, but on average.
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by kriskrosed View Post
    Would it be too far off topic to ask how much hps a captain can generate for a single target? I'm guessing traits and defeat responses and who's got Shield-brother and whether or not your gear swapping can cause the number to vary, but say the tank has done a good job of holding aggro and he/she's the only one who needs heals. How much can a captain reasonably sustain on just one single person? Not best case, but on average.
    It'd be a bit tough to test. Easiest way to test would just be to spam a tank in town with heals, but you won't have the benefits of any other class helping your numbers (such as LM Water-lore or a mini's Tale of Heroism). It may not impact it too greatly, but it would impact it. Can't test in a regular instance because CombatAnalysis takes into account all heals, to include overheals (which means that even if nobody else is taking damage, they're still getting "heals" even though their morale bar isn't moving).
    Also obviously, if a captain is healing in town he may not generate as many defeat responses. It's a good way to test some boss fights, but even most of those have adds that will die and generate defeat responses.
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  18. #18
    Would it help if I asked for two numbers? One for a fight with a lot of defeat responses and one for a fight with none? Not looking for anything real specific here, just a ballpark number.
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  19. #19
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    You seem upset that Captains are being pigeon-holed, while ironically making the same mistake. Our main role is not Support. Our main role can be Support, Healer, or Tank.

    You claim Captains can DPS as well as they can heal and they they are not healers. This is false. I have main-healed all 6-person content without a tank (used a Burglar with Enrage where necessary). This is a feat that main healing classes have difficulty with. I also once main healed a raid when we were short healers. However, my DPS never comes close to similarly-skilled and equipped DPS classes (unless you count our support DPS, but then the captain is being Support, not DPS). You state you get up to 1.8k DPS over 1 minute. Compare this to DPS classes that easily pull 2-4K, and can go as high as 6K over a minute.

    A class revamp is coming. Please do not encourage people to pigeon-hole us. We want to be seen as viable Healers, Tanks, and Support, not just Support.
    Last edited by DEATHKNYGHT; Aug 11 2013 at 03:35 AM.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by DEATHKNYGHT View Post
    You seem upset that Captains are being pigeon-holed, while ironically making the same mistake. Our main role is not Support. Our main role can be Support, Healer, or Tank.

    You claim Captains can DPS as well as they can heal and they they are not healers. This is false. I have main-healed all 6-person content without a tank (used a Burglar with Enrage where necessary). This is a feat that main healing classes have difficulty with. I also once main healed a raid when we were short healers. However, my DPS never comes close to similarly-skilled and equipped DPS classes (unless you count our support DPS, but then the captain is being Support, not DPS).

    A class revamp is coming. Please do not encourage people to pigeon-hole us. We want to be seen as viable Healers, Tanks, and Support, not just Support.
    If the forums still allowed me to give rep, you'd have some extra now.
    (Unrelated question: does that include Sari-Surma? That's the only 6-man I haven't been able to main heal, and only because of the last boss. Definitely not doubting you did it, just wondering how much I need to up my game.)
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  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by DEATHKNYGHT View Post
    A class revamp is coming. Please do not encourage people to pigeon-hole us. We want to be seen as viable Healers, Tanks, and Support, not just Support.
    don't worry. if anything stands out from the class revamp thread from rock it's the first responce.

    https://www.lotro.com/forums/showthr...59#post6688659

    I'm hope so to. "support" should in there blood in all lines. healer with supporting healers, tank while supporting tanks, dps while supporting dps. the captain and ally being greater than the sum of there parts in a sense.

    when solo, that should be replicated with the herald. which, imo, isn't working as it should be. not sure if captain fits with having a heralds all the time, but if it's intended for solo use the herald should better.
    Last edited by bohbashum; Aug 11 2013 at 07:11 AM.
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  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by DEATHKNYGHT View Post
    Our main role is not Support. Our main role can be Support, Healer, or Tank.
    I've been saying support as being able to fill all the roles decently, but none of them better than the true dps classes or true tanks or true heals. In case you didn't know, check the character screen It says support.
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  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by vr00mie View Post
    That depends entirely on the situation. I had 2,2k in BfE T2C, but if you get enough defeat events there's no problem staying around 3k.
    Yes that's a given, it always depends on the situation. I was just having trouble understanding how a captain doing 1.8k dps on who knows what, must be doing just as much hps. You know, since they're "just as good."

  24. #24
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    Captains perform better supporting any of the roles rather than being the main in any role, try it in a raid/6man and you'll see for yourself. This is backed up by the fact that we're SUPPORT classes. Support hybrid type classes in every mmo I've played typically fill 1 role mainly and another role half the time, in this case it's healer in tank, most the content is mind numbingly easy. (sambrog being run as a 3 man for example) Which is why captains can fill the main healer role pretty easily, if the content were as challenging as it was back in soa, any captain who said he was a main healer of a raid would get laughed at. Our intended role is to be support, support the healer by buffing his heals and adding in a few of your own, tanking by buffing the tank and off tanking, DPSing by buffing the dps and doing some dps (it seems like none of you have even touched redline if you dont see how much potential this has to increase group dps 10 fold.) With rotation being the key, you can dish out some major numbers dpsing while helping the champion or hunter out a good bit too.
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  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by OruiFarimur View Post
    support
    that could mean a lot. just saying "support" could mean any of our 3 rolls.

    currently, the captain heals well in all lines. so it's not that far to say captain main roll is healing. "support" could simply mean off-healer.
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