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  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orodbril View Post
    Nevertheless is OG a ruin while HD is still a fortress. ^^
    This isn't meant to be offensive, it's just funny.
    Hehe... you know i meant, when it was newly built..
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  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by zagreb000 View Post
    Still, the castle has a gothic look to it...
    Yes, it looks like a medieval castle with those machicolations and whatnot but the Rohirrim are based on early medieval people, from a time long before Gothic architecture was invented. The whole thing about the Hornburg is that they didn't build it, the Dunedain did - the Rohirrim just fixed it up again so it was properly defensible.

    True, but then why not go with the movie look that is imo better then this in every way? I just cant understand this lego look.
    Because the game isn't based in any way on the movies.

    Also hornburg is supposed to be impossible to take... but looking at the pics it seems you can easily drive up a battering ram to the gate, not just a piece of log like in the movie... Comparing the layout of Ost guruth to horburg, for example, i see Og castle defensively superior.
    It doesn't look easy to me. It'd be damned hard work to get a battering ram up that ramp, and especially round that corner, in the face of a determined defence.

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    Yes, it looks like a medieval castle with those machicolations and whatnot but the Rohirrim are based on early medieval people, from a time long before Gothic architecture was invented. The whole thing about the Hornburg is that they didn't build it, the Dunedain did - the Rohirrim just fixed it up again so it was properly defensible.
    Just stating what it looks like to me....


    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    Because the game isn't based in any way on the movies.
    Doesnt matter one bit.. I have read the descriptions of Hornburg.. The movie look and this look can both fit the description.. Again im stating what i prefer.. Even the squirels in the tree know already that Lotro is based on the books..

    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    It doesn't look easy to me. It'd be damned hard work to get a battering ram up that ramp, and especially round that corner, in the face of a determined defence.
    Really? Cant say it would be.. You really think that a dozen uruk-hai couldnt push a battering ram up the slope? cant agree
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  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by zagreb000 View Post
    Doesnt matter one bit.. I have read the descriptions of Hornburg.. The movie look and this look can both fit the description.. Again im stating what i prefer.. Even the squirels in the tree know already that Lotro is based on the books..
    So why on earth were you asking why it doesn't look like it does in the movie? Game titles based on the movies will look like them, but anything that isn't won't.

    Really? Cant say it would be.. You really think that a dozen uruk-hai couldnt push a battering ram up the slope? cant agree
    While there were archers on the towers and nearby walls who were all trying to feather them with arrows, and more guys ready to drop rocks and other stuff on them when they get near the top? It is not easy to haul something heavy up a slope like that, and it'd be markedly less so with people trying to kill you at the same time. Plus the ramp goes round a corner, too - not easy to negotiate in any sort of hurry with something as unwieldy as a battering-ram, and again while that' was going on it'd be raining arrows. You would not want to be one of the poor sods who'd been given that job.

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bayrat View Post
    For me at least, the whole look of the Hornburg just comes off as "lazy" on the developers part. Its just really sad that it has come to this. I feel Turbine has done

    a tremendous job on recreating Middle Earth. Everytime im in Moria im just awe struck at the amount of love and detail that went into creating the feel of the place.

    Lothlorien is beautiful and sense of wonder that it gives off is second to none. Helms Deep just doesn't look " Epic" enough. It looks like it was thrown together one

    afternoon and forgot about while everyone worked on "Big Battles." It just seems to me that the Love for the game as diminished on the devs part. And that scares me.

    I feel after Mirkwood the Production Value just took a nose dive. Endenwaith, from my perspective, looks absolutely terrible. Helms Deep is probably my favorite chapter in

    the books. I, like many other players, have been looking forward to running around Hornburg, scouting on the Deeping Wall, Exploring the Glittering Caves, and defending the

    fortress against Sarumans forces. But if this effort is a view of what is to come in the coming months/ years, this very well may be the last time ill be exploring Middle Earth.
    Until now, you can't know how the Glittering Caves will look like.


    ______________________________ ______________________________ ______________________________ ______________________________ __________________________

    The following has nothing to do with the quote: So, because many people are dissatisfied: why not doing it the other way round and you play the dev. So in your mind how would HD look like? And I don't want to hear answers like "Like in the movies." , "More epic." or "Different". I would like to have real answers. LOTRO isn't based on the movie and therefore it has been always relatively clear that it would look different. And both "Different" and "More epic." are very vague answers and depends on the person wrting it - for some are these things epic, for other ones there are different thing epics - to sayit in general...

    So: your creativity can start HERE. ;DDD

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by zagreb000 View Post
    Hehe... you know i meant, when it was newly built..
    Yeah, I know. But why OG became a ruin and HD is still a fortress when OG had a better defence?










    PS. I know that these are illogical conclusions, and that there are factors like strength of defenders and attackers or maybe aspects like traitors...
    But this mind game seems a little bit funny to me.

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by zagreb000 View Post
    Just stating what it looks like to me....




    Doesnt matter one bit.. I have read the descriptions of Hornburg.. The movie look and this look can both fit the description.. Again im stating what i prefer.. Even the squirels in the tree know already that Lotro is based on the books..



    Really? Cant say it would be.. You really think that a dozen uruk-hai couldnt push a battering ram up the slope? cant agree
    Ehm, there were very less Uruks at HD. Mostly Dunlandings and orcs - both very unexperienced with warfare and not really prepared or such things. Yeah, orcs were created for war, but their advantage is their number, neither their experience nor their skills. So it could be difficult for them...

    And yes, the slope is a little bit wide, but at the top the gate is relatively narrow and the walk is narrowed by the walls next to the gate a little bit.

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    So why on earth were you asking why it doesn't look like it does in the movie?
    Are you serious? That was a hypothetical question. Read into the context. (the prior post says, that its completely subjective). Even if it did look exactly like the one in the movie, what i did not state, there would be nothing wrong with that since the description fits both more or less.. I found the movie version the closest to how i envisioned it which is why i wrote: -see prior post-... I did not say copy from the movies nor did i say anything close to what you wrote.. This is a painfully obvious straw-man....

    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    While there were archers on the towers and nearby walls who were all trying to feather them with arrows, and more guys ready to drop rocks and other stuff on them when they get near the top? It is not easy to haul something heavy up a slope like that, and it'd be markedly less so with people trying to kill you at the same time. Plus the ramp goes round a corner, too - not easy to negotiate in any sort of hurry with something as unwieldy as a battering-ram, and again while that' was going on it'd be raining arrows. You would not want to be one of the poor sods who'd been given that job.
    Ok, first of all this is something that was anticipated when the battering ram was first thought off... I dont think you actually know what a battering ram is and if someone in middle earth can design the Grond then sure as hell they can build a simple battering ram... The whole beauty of a battering ram is that you can build it so soldiers are protected completely under it while pushing...If that wasnt so, no one ever would use one, if no other protection was available.... So arrows wouldnt touch them and neither would your pebbles... Cant go around the corner? Is this really your argument? Then how the hell do they maneuver it? Do they drive it in only one direction? haha... It has wheels for god sakes, and on a rocky surface a push to the side would easily do it... Give me a battering ram and 20 uruk-hai, that gate is gone in 1 hour... You should really read what you write man....
    Last edited by zagreb000; Sep 10 2013 at 10:01 PM.
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  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orodbril View Post
    Yeah, I know. But why OG became a ruin and HD is still a fortress when OG had a better defence?
    Checkmate ...


    PS: I ignored the PS since its funnier without it

    Quote Originally Posted by Orodbril View Post
    Ehm, there were very less Uruks at HD. Mostly Dunlandings and orcs - both very unexperienced with warfare and not really prepared or such things. Yeah, orcs were created for war, but their advantage is their number, neither their experience nor their skills. So it could be difficult for them...

    And yes, the slope is a little bit wide, but at the top the gate is relatively narrow and the walk is narrowed by the walls next to the gate a little bit.
    Ok, give me 20 high-school kids and the gate is gone in maybe 2 hours...:P.... It is of absolutely no importance if there are no uruks, im talking about general defense of the gate.. The builders didnt build HD in anticipation of this fight knowing there wouldnt be enough uruks.. Cmon? What are we talking about here? Pushing something up a hill is not something you need extensive tactical training for.. Im talking about breaking down a gate and how easy it would be....
    I think it looks narrower because its further in the distance.. If you look at the other screenshots its really not.. the poles could get in the way, but still, knock them down ...

    Cmon, you really cant say that HD defense is something admirable... Its supposed to be impenetrable, it just doesnt look that way..


    Carn dum, dol guldur.. Now those are castles!

    This is how i see Hornburg.
    You take the same wall texture from the movies, grayish color of walls... You keep the "towers" as is in this picture.. Height of the walls, if im not mistaken is written down in the books.. Walls are bent towards inside, so the archers have a wider line of sight meaning they can shoot from all sides at anyone trying to climb the walls...Get rid of the "lego-like" blocks.... Shouldnt look like a residence of a king but instead have a more "military" look... Keep should be more protected and not exposed as it appears to be... The path to the gate should be much narrower, wide enough only for a horse and carriage to pass.. Stone bridge is optional but a dangerous drop is something i would like to see on each side of the path...
    Last edited by zagreb000; Sep 10 2013 at 10:45 PM.
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  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by zagreb000 View Post
    Checkmate ...


    PS: I ignored the PS since its funnier without it



    Ok, give me 20 high-school kids and the gate is gone in maybe 2 hours...:P.... It is of absolutely no importance if there are no uruks, im talking about general defense of the gate.. The builders didnt build HD in anticipation of this fight knowing there wouldnt be enough uruks.. Cmon? What are we talking about here? Pushing something up a hill is not something you need extensive tactical training for.. Im talking about breaking down a gate and how easy it would be....
    I think it looks narrower because its further in the distance.. If you look at the other screenshots its really not.. the poles could get in the way, but still, knock them down ...

    Cmon, you really cant say that HD defense is something admirable... Its supposed to be impenetrable, it just doesnt look that way..


    Carn dum, dol guldur.. Now those are castles!

    This is how i see Hornburg.
    You take the same wall texture from the movies, grayish color of walls... You keep the "towers" as is in this picture.. Height of the walls, if im not mistaken is written down in the books.. Walls are bent towards inside, so the archers have a wider line of sight meaning they can shoot from all sides at anyone trying to climb the walls...Get rid of the "lego-like" blocks.... Shouldnt look like a residence of a king but instead have a more "military" look... Keep should be more protected and not exposed as it appears to be... The path to the gate should be much narrower, wide enough only for a horse and carriage to pass.. Stone bridge is optional but a dangerous drop is something i would like to see on each side of the path...
    No, no tactical training is needed. I think of another thing. So you think, they took a whole batterting ram like tis one from Isengard to HD?


    (Source: English Wikipedia--> battering ram [I know very inventive ^^])

    Isn't it a little bit too heavy, too slow, too bulky for transport and especially too vulnerable to the uneven ground? All the way from Isengard? Also remember that the army could be attacked by some Rohirrim who wanted to fight against the White Hand even when Theoden prohibited it (when he was still under the influence of Grima and therefore Saruman). So when Theoden prohibites it they thought to take a stand nevertheless. And so they didn't know that Theoden was assembling his people and especially the people who can fight at HD and also some didn't follow Eomer... and these are the Rohirrim I spoke of attacking some parts of the army of Saruman marshing to HD. And remember: the battering ram is very slow, so propably most parts of the army are dozens of kilometers or at least more than 5 kilometres in front of them and only a small group is protecting the battering ram against possible attacks... Doesn't it sound a LITTLE BIT like the battering ram is VERY MUCH vulnerable...? I mean, because of this they propably would have taken a lighter one, easier and faster to transport... more like this one:


    (Source: lotr.wikia.com --> again "battering ram" xD)

    And here now I come to the point: to protect THIS battering ram up the slope you need some tactical training. You have to know how to form a shield wall. And this isn't such easy as you think off. You get theoretical knowledge from pictures and stuff like this. You can imagine how it should look like. But Dunlandings are mostöly farmers (although the ground isn't very fertile in Dunland) or other non-military work and they could be glad to know how to bear a sword or a battle axe without killing themselves... :P
    And orcs: forget it. The only military thoughts they can have are: "Kill! Kill! Kill!" or "We are in superior number! Attack!" respectively "We are outnumbered! Fly, you fools!" (and they would forget to mark the quote of Gandalf ^^ )

    So, it doesn't seems such easy to me like it seems to you...

    And Tolkien has never mentioned that they built just in front of HD a battering ram or a protection for it. Especially because there is no wood which could have been used for that.

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by zagreb000 View Post
    Are you serious? That was a hypothetical question. Read into the context. (the prior post says, that its completely subjective). Even if it did look exactly like the one in the movie, what i did not state, there would be nothing wrong with that since the description fits both more or less.. I found the movie version the closest to how i envisioned it which is why i wrote: -see prior post-... I did not say copy from the movies nor did i say anything close to what you wrote.. This is a painfully obvious straw-man....
    No, as what you said did actually imply you wanted it to look like the movie version.

    Ok, first of all this is something that was anticipated when the battering ram was first thought off... I dont think you actually know what a battering ram is and if someone in middle earth can design the Grond then sure as hell they can build a simple battering ram... The whole beauty of a battering ram is that you can build it so soldiers are protected completely under it while pushing...If that wasnt so, no one ever would use one, if no other protection was available.... So arrows wouldnt touch them and neither would your pebbles... Cant go around the corner? Is this really your argument? Then how the hell do they maneuver it? Do they drive it in only one direction? haha... It has wheels for god sakes, and on a rocky surface a push to the side would easily do it... Give me a battering ram and 20 uruk-hai, that gate is gone in 1 hour... You should really read what you write man....
    Oh sure, just casually push that thing up a steep ramp, and it just magically negotiates the corner despite being long, heavy and generally awkward... and the defenders don't do anything unsporting like launching a sally when it gets near the top, despite that as the book has it there's supposed to be a sally port up there (just around a corner) for just that very reason.

    The point about the Hornburg was that it had never fallen, if I remember rightly, not that it was literally impregnable - because if it had been impregnable, then Saruman's lot wouldn't have tried to assault it and would have had to lay siege to it instead, with a view to starving the defenders out, however long that might have taken. So for the plot to work, it has to appear possible for the place to be taken by storm - otherwise there'd be no threat of that, and the drama of it would fall flat.

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orodbril View Post
    No, no tactical training is needed. I think of another thing. So you think, they took a whole batterting ram like tis one from Isengard to HD?
    For pushing a ram up a hill.. Its seems as if you only contradict just for the sake of contradicting... They didnt take it... They could have took it.. Or someone else could have made one.. Another attacking army that wanted to take HD....

    Quote Originally Posted by Orodbril View Post
    Isn't it a little bit too heavy, too slow, too bulky for transport and especially too vulnerable to the uneven ground? All the way from Isengard? Also remember that the army could be attacked by some Rohirrim who wanted to fight against the White Hand even when Theoden prohibited it (when he was still under the influence of Grima and therefore Saruman). So when Theoden prohibites it they thought to take a stand nevertheless. And so they didn't know that Theoden was assembling his people and especially the people who can fight at HD and also some didn't follow Eomer... and these are the Rohirrim I spoke of attacking some parts of the army of Saruman marshing to HD. And remember: the battering ram is very slow, so propably most parts of the army are dozens of kilometers or at least more than 5 kilometres in front of them and only a small group is protecting the battering ram against possible attacks... Doesn't it sound a LITTLE BIT like the battering ram is VERY MUCH vulnerable...? I mean, because of this they propably would have taken a lighter one, easier and faster to transport... more like this one:


    And here now I come to the point: to protect THIS battering ram up the slope you need some tactical training. You have to know how to form a shield wall. And this isn't such easy as you think off. You get theoretical knowledge from pictures and stuff like this. You can imagine how it should look like. But Dunlandings are mostöly farmers (although the ground isn't very fertile in Dunland) or other non-military work and they could be glad to know how to bear a sword or a battle axe without killing themselves... :P
    And orcs: forget it. The only military thoughts they can have are: "Kill! Kill! Kill!" or "We are in superior number! Attack!" respectively "We are outnumbered! Fly, you fools!" (and they would forget to mark the quote of Gandalf ^^ )

    So, it doesn't seems such easy to me like it seems to you...

    And Tolkien has never mentioned that they built just in front of HD a battering ram or a protection for it. Especially because there is no wood which could have been used for that.

    This is silly... Again im talking about the general defense.. HD wasnt built just for this fight!.. They didnt say: "hey lets build it like this, they wont use this kind of ram.. they will have orcs and not uruks, dunedlings and not trolls"... You are looking at HD only in the context of this battle which is really a narrow way of thinking... Completely illogical...

    Its not easy in comparison to writing posts on the forums, but in comparison to breaking down a wall of carn dum, or dol guldur or any other major real castle its remarkably easy.... And i explained why...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    No, as what you said did actually imply you wanted it to look like the movie version.
    This is just hilarious.. You cant even make up your mind... First you said i wanted to know why it doesnt look like the one in the movies which is why you thought it would be a good idea to explain it.. And now you are saying i implied that i want it to look like the one from the movies.. I did not imply that in any way in that question but rather clearly write that i prefer the movie look to this one in the other posts you havent clearly read. Its not something im hiding... I understand you.. There are some topics that are slam dunk easy to comment and bash, since they have been rehashed so many times... Lotro not being a movie game is one of those topics... "uh, nice, i can appear knowledgeable, heres my opportunity!"... Really wasnt..

    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    Oh sure, just casually push that thing up a steep ramp, and it just magically negotiates the corner despite being long, heavy and generally awkward... and the defenders don't do anything unsporting like launching a sally when it gets near the top, despite that as the book has it there's supposed to be a sally port up there (just around a corner) for just that very reason.

    The point about the Hornburg was that it had never fallen, if I remember rightly, not that it was literally impregnable - because if it had been impregnable, then Saruman's lot wouldn't have tried to assault it and would have had to lay siege to it instead, with a view to starving the defenders out, however long that might have taken. So for the plot to work, it has to appear possible for the place to be taken by storm - otherwise there'd be no threat of that, and the drama of it would fall flat.
    Ok so according to you, pushing wood on wheels up a ramp, and turning it to one side is "magic"... hahaha.. You must be easily impressed.. Ok, see the ram would have a roof, wooden roof.. Put it simply: "if roof on head, arrow no hit head".... The point about HD is that it is supposed to at least seem impregnable since the Rohan folk see it that way... It simply does not... In the movie, it really does look like something you would have a hard time taking.. The turbines version doesnt...

    It doesnt matter what you think Saruman would do.. Both him and Sauron make a lot of bad calls in the books showing themselves as bad generals...
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    Quote Originally Posted by zagreb000 View Post
    This is just hilarious.. You cant even make up your mind...
    Right back at you. All this waffle of yours about battering rams on wheels (which weren't even fielded there!) is doubly true of the movie version because its ramp doesn't have any corner to turn - it's a straight run right up to the gate. So how come you're only picking on Turbine's version?

    Ok so according to you, pushing wood on wheels up a ramp, and turning it to one side is "magic"... hahaha.. You must be easily impressed.. Ok, see the ram would have a roof, wooden roof.. Put it simply: "if roof on head, arrow no hit head".... The point about HD is that it is supposed to at least seem impregnable since the Rohan folk see it that way... It simply does not... In the movie, it really does look like something you would have a hard time taking.. The turbines version doesnt...
    Like I already said: no, it's not meant to seem impregnable. When Tolkien does that, he talks about "walls like cliffs" and suchlike, and that's not the case with the Hornburg - for example the wall's a relatively low twenty feet high, scalable with nothing more than ladders, For there to be drama, there has to be a sense of jeopardy, that the place could fall to a direct assault by sheer force of numbers. Otherwise the Rohirrim would be all "LOL, silly Orcs, can't get us" and instead of the high drama of an assault, there'd be the tedium of a siege. You'd make a bloody awful writer.

    It doesnt matter what you think Saruman would do.. Both him and Sauron make a lot of bad calls in the books showing themselves as bad generals...
    Saruman's had no practice at it so it's small wonder he doesn't really know what he's doing. As for Sauron, he does know what he's doing but the deck is stacked against him - every time things look grim for the Freeps, *pow* along comes another deus ex machina to ruin his whole day.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    All this waffle of yours about battering rams on wheels (which weren't even fielded there!) is doubly true of the movie version because its ramp doesn't have any corner to turn - it's a straight run right up to the gate. So how come you're only picking on Turbine's version?
    Its really hard for me not to insult you due to your lack of intelligence.... Ill just repeat for the fifth time: im talking about the general defensive capability! Hornburg was not, i repeat, was not built with this battle in mind!... How come im only picking on Turbines version?... Well gee, lets see.. Maybe because Turbines version is the main topic of this thread... I really cant say, if youre trolling or for real...


    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    Like I already said: no, it's not meant to seem impregnable. When Tolkien does that, he talks about "walls like cliffs" and suchlike, and that's not the case with the Hornburg - for example the wall's a relatively low twenty feet high, scalable with nothing more than ladders, For there to be drama, there has to be a sense of jeopardy, that the place could fall to a direct assault by sheer force of numbers. Otherwise the Rohirrim would be all "LOL, silly Orcs, can't get us" and instead of the high drama of an assault, there'd be the tedium of a siege. You'd make a bloody awful writer.
    ... You say its not supposed to look impregnable, but then have a problem with me saying why it is not... This is just arguing for the sake of arguing...
    Make up your mind...
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    Quote Originally Posted by zagreb000 View Post
    Its really hard for me not to insult you due to your lack of intelligence.... Ill just repeat for the fifth time: im talking about the general defensive capability! Hornburg was not, i repeat, was not built with this battle in mind!... How come im only picking on Turbines version?... Well gee, lets see.. Maybe because Turbines version is the main topic of this thread... I really cant say, if youre trolling or for real...
    So you said you preferred the movie version, but you're picking on the game version for a design flaw of sorts which is if anything worse in the movie version. Inconsistent, much? So don't try to tell me I need to make up my mind.

    ... You say its not supposed to look impregnable, but then have a problem with me saying why it is not... This is just arguing for the sake of arguing...
    Make up your mind...
    You said it should look impregnable, I simply told you why it shouldn't (because as described by Tolkien, it isn't). So not looking impregnable isn't a flaw in Turbine's version... and the movie version doesn't look impregnable either!

    Turbine's version does look a bit odd, mind you, and has some bizarre decorative details - but that's Turbine for you, and you can see the same sort of oddball stuff all over the game. But I don't think looking a bit odd merits a whole thread about it. It doesn't look even half as odd as their weirdly huge version of Meduseld, or long-standing oddities like the Last Homely House.

  17. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bayrat View Post
    Endenwaith, from my perspective, looks absolutely terrible.
    You are probably the first person I've seen that didn't like the visuals in Enedwaith. I think it looks great, with lots of colour and a fantastic sky.

    Quote Originally Posted by zagreb000 View Post
    Cant go around the corner? Is this really your argument? Then how the hell do they maneuver it? Do they drive it in only one direction? haha... It has wheels for god sakes, and on a rocky surface a push to the side would easily do it... Give me a battering ram and 20 uruk-hai, that gate is gone in 1 hour...
    Trying to manoeuvre the ram and defend yourself at the same time would be nearly impossible. Even if the ram was built-up as a full war machine with an overlying protective layer it would still be vulnerable to fire.
    << Co-founder of The Firebrands of Caruja on Landroval >>
    Ceolford of Dale, Dorolin, Tordag, Garberend Bellheather, Colfinn Belegorn, Garmo Butterbuckles, Calensarn Nimlos, Langtiriel, Bergteir


  18. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by auximenes View Post
    Trying to manoeuvre the ram and defend yourself at the same time would be nearly impossible. Even if the ram was built-up as a full war machine with an overlying protective layer it would still be vulnerable to fire.
    You are wrong.. Now lets build one and test it....(wet skins dont burn easily.. neither do thin metal plates)...
    [CENTER][URL="http://postimage.org/"][IMG]http://s5.postimg.org/oiz5srzbr/download_1.jpg[/IMG][/URL]


    [COLOR=#ffffff][I][B]Only fools and dead men never change their mind[/B][/I][/COLOR][/CENTER]

  19. #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by zagreb000 View Post
    For pushing a ram up a hill.. Its seems as if you only contradict just for the sake of contradicting... They didnt take it... They could have took it.. Or someone else could have made one.. Another attacking army that wanted to take HD....




    This is silly... Again im talking about the general defense.. HD wasnt built just for this fight!.. They didnt say: "hey lets build it like this, they wont use this kind of ram.. they will have orcs and not uruks, dunedlings and not trolls"... You are looking at HD only in the context of this battle which is really a narrow way of thinking... Completely illogical...

    Its not easy in comparison to writing posts on the forums, but in comparison to breaking down a wall of carn dum, or dol guldur or any other major real castle its remarkably easy.... And i explained why...
    1. Yes. Another army maybe, at least transport it from far away - but it's well-known that most siege machines in history were built at the location they should be used. Yeah, at HD in this situation the attackers transported ladders and a battering ram to HD, but usually they wouldn't. And there is no wood around HD other attackers could use...



    2nd: Yeah, HD wasn't built for just this fight. But again: no wood around there and nearly no army transports their siege machines...
    So, the way HD is built is good enough to take a stand against an army which has no or very less siege machines and this would or was propwbly the case with other sieges and sieges before...

    And yeah, HD was mostly used for fights against Dunlandings and Easterlings and such people. There are no possible areas where orcs live and the orcs from the Misty Mountains were too far in the north and for the orcs of Mordor there was Gondor as a barrier... so, the only pretty possible options from attackers are Dunlandings and Easterlings. The first one have a relatively low standard of technology and therefore possibilities with sieges while the Easterlings had marshed hundreds or thousands kilometres, so propably no transport of any siege machines and no wood to built some. Does it still seem to you to be such a easy target..? With all these circumstances of geology and Rohan's/Calenardhons's history it seems to me that the gate was difficult to capture and the whole wall was high enough to be a large barrier...

    Also Helm Hammerhand was sieged there for months during winter because it was such impregnable... -they have lost a battle at the Ford of Isen but although they had many casualties they could defend Suthburg (called HD after the winter). the Dunlendings were sieging them but found no way in... the Rohirrim survived because in the Glittering caves, armoury and so on were enough suppiel for such a time. So HD was impregnable for both to take by normal assault and to take under siege. Enough evidence in general now?

  20. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by zagreb000 View Post
    You are wrong.. Now lets build one and test it....(wet skins dont burn easily.. neither do thin metal plates)...
    I've seen re-creations. Even if you can't get the ram to burn the ground in front of and beneath it can be set alight.
    << Co-founder of The Firebrands of Caruja on Landroval >>
    Ceolford of Dale, Dorolin, Tordag, Garberend Bellheather, Colfinn Belegorn, Garmo Butterbuckles, Calensarn Nimlos, Langtiriel, Bergteir


  21. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by auximenes View Post
    I've seen re-creations. Even if you can't get the ram to burn the ground in front of and beneath it can be set alight.
    This, on the other side is difficult on stone streets like the slope. And otherwise you cover it with sand or - when there is no sand - with earth

 

 
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