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  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by un_dying_ View Post
    thats exactly what I am trying to tell you over the last two years ...

    the Quality Content is from a time before F2P
    F2P means there are no resources for development,
    there can only be Profit made out of the stuff that already is in existence the Moment the F2P game gets puplished
    Have you read what your wrote at all. Or even thought about it.

    It's such a nonsense. When they would get less money and less profit through F2P, why they should have changed to F2P instead of staying with the subscriptions? Turbine is a company and a company usually thinks economically. So why they should make a decision which is economically false or decreses their profit? Just to give more players the possibility to play it while they earn less money? Come off it!

    Turbine has a higher profit with LOTRO than ever before...

    Quote Originally Posted by un_dying_ View Post
    the Content that is of some Quality you got since F2P was in stock from a planed second Expansion similar
    to Moria
    What do you mean?

    Quote Originally Posted by un_dying_ View Post

    the mounted combat System was never finished (according to Statements from Producers before the F2P era)

    but it was implemented in its unfinished prototype state ...
    hm? the statements are from producers before the F2P era? So they left the comapny before F2P was implemented - so their statements have an actuality of nearly 4 years? Sure, that's a real good proof that they didn't finished it *irony off*

    Are you really thinking that Turbine's developers aren't able to finish this system in 3 years? This statement isn't really well conceived.

    Quote Originally Posted by un_dying_ View Post

    now they are at a Point where all they had is running thin, despite their efforts to Stretch what
    they had over an absurd timespan of 2 years ... they Need to create some new Content,
    but they dont have Money to higher Quality industry standart Designers and artists,

    no new art, no raids ... just a tweaked skirmish System ...

    they can only re-use the stuff they already have, and as we see ... they will desperatly fail

    regards
    they aren't running thin.they create new content. they have the money dor the content and the money for a good quality.
    What new art do you mean? Yeah, there are no raids, but a new system beisde instances and it isn't just another version of skirmishes. How can you evaluate it as just another skirmish-like thing? It isn't published until now and except beta-testers nobody could see it until now... -.-

    So you're a fortuneteller? You can alreday NOW see (as we see) that "THEY WILL DESPERATLY FAIL"... o.O

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by thefamilyosc View Post
    You can damn well bet that even as Theoden and company were racing from Edoras to the Hornburg some collection of squires were bumbling about riding with all manner of banners and pennants.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9nXfffeAIU
    [CENTER][COLOR="RoyalBlue"]<< Co-founder of [I][U][SIZE="4"]The Firebrands of Caruja[/SIZE][/U][/I] on Landroval >>
    Ceolford of Dale, Dorolin, Tordag, Garberend Bellheather, Colfinn Belegorn, Garmo Butterbuckles, Calensarn Nimlos, Langtiriel, Bergteir[/COLOR]
    [/CENTER]

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by auximenes View Post
    Thanks! At least someone is able to offer valid source material. How long till the books are gonna be open source btw? I image it would be much easier to do research in a digital version.

    I dont't want the thread drift away to much in a discussion about the financial state of Turbine. Just this: Imho money isn't the reason why the artists (-staff) decides how things should look ingame. Especially when it comes to the color scheme of regions and architecture. I imagine their loremonkeys are responsible for a lot of their decisions. The question is, how much?

    In my opinion, a lot of things in tolkiens fictional universe are (intendedly) open for discussion. Not only because they are not mention in detail, sometimes they are also described differently, when you compare them with other essays of Tolkiens legendarium. For Example "The Lord of the Rings" vs "The Silmarillion" vs "The Children of Húrin".

    Again, after a lot of reading, I wasn't able to find any evidence, that the using of black architecture around Isengard ingame is neither mentioned in the books, nor is it a justification to say the gondorian used preferably black building material in the end of the SA and the beginning of the TA. The tower itself, no doubt, is black. Edit: Ok, I was a bit wrong, the books mentioned a black wall in the book "The Two Towers". But thats still at the End of the Third Age, over 3000 Years after Isengard was built and it is a different material from the tower.

    tolkiengateway:
    "There stood a tower of marvellous shape. It was fashioned by the builders of old, who smoothed the Ring of Isengard, and yet it seemed a thing not made by the craft of Men, but riven from the bones of the earth in the ancient torment of the hills. A peak and isle of rock it was, black and gleaming hard: four mighty piers of many-sided stone were welded into one, but near the summit they opened into gaping horns, their pinnacles sharp as the points of spears, keen-edged as knives. Between them was a narrow space, and there upon a floor of polished stone, written with strange signs, a man might stand five hundred feet above the plain."
    J.R.R. Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings, The Two Towers, "The Road to Isengard"

    One of tolkien's scetches of orthanc:

    source

    And Obsidian. No. Just a fitting element added by our imagination. Or just people like Nasmith, Howe or Alan Lee. It's more a magical material in my eyes, that looks like obsidian, but wasn't decribed as such so as not to steal its mystery.
    We propably are all biased from the dvds making-of specials. I remember they mentioned Obsidian there.

    Here is another quote from the Two Towers concerning Isengard:
    "A strong place and wonderful was Isengard, and long it had been beautiful [...]. But Saruman had slowly shaped it to his shifting purposes, and made it better, as he thought, being deceived - for all those arts and subtle devices, for which he forsook his former wisdom, and which fondly he imagined were his own, came but from Mordor; so that what he made was naught, only a little copy, a child's model or a slave's flattery, of that vast fortress, armoury, prison, furnace of great power, Barad-dûr, the Dark Tower, which suffered no rival, and laughed at flattery, biding its time, secure in its pride and its immeasurable strength."
    source

    Underlines what I've said before. The look of Isengards surrounding architecture we have ingame is propably more influenced by Saruman and the Dunlendings than the Gondorians who have left it long ago. The black material of the tower has its origin at the event of the creation of orthanc. It has nothing to do with the buildings that came thereafter. At least the look of the walls seems to be not relevant to Tolkien.
    Here a picture, Ted Nasmith had made of early Orthanc in the last Days of the Second Age, without the ring of walls.


    I try to find more passages about Helms Deep. ...

    For me at the end it comes down to authenticity and taste. This is my personal problem with the appearence of Helms Deep at the moment.
    The whole research is also fun I have to admit.

    Oh look what we have here:
    Last edited by Schinderhannes; Sep 08 2013 at 04:59 PM.

  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schinderhannes View Post
    At least the look of the walls seems to be not relevant to Tolkien.
    You might want to check out the quote I posted earlier.

  5. #55
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    Thanks for the clarification. Didn't know you quoted from the books...
    A great ring-wall of stone, like towering cliffs, stood out from the shelter of the mountain-side, from which it ran and then returned again. One entrance only was there made in it, a great arch delved in the southern wall. Here through the black rock a long tunnel had been hewn, closed at either end with mighty doors of iron. They were so wrought and poised upon their huge hinges, posts of steel driven into the living stone, that when unbarred they could be moved with a light thrust of the arms, noiselessly. One who passed in and came at length out of the echoing tunnel, beheld a plain, a great circle, somewhat hollowed like a vast shallow bowl: a mile it measured from rim to rim.
    J.R.R. Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings, The Two Towers, "The Road to Isengard"

    Ok, looks like the wall was really black. Or at least dark looking.

    The Tolkien Gateway Wiki says about the Ring of Isengard:

    The Ring of Isengard refers to the rocky walls that surrounded and protected the Tower of Orthanc. They grew out of the wall of a valley at the southern end of the Misty Mountains, and were worked by the early Gondorians so that they formed a complete defensive circle around the tower.
    If that is true, even they had no quotes from tolkiens work here, they still used stones from this valley. So still no proof it has the same color and material like Orthanc ("black and gleaming hard"). Remeber it was actually indestructable. So no tunnel hewing with shiny orthanc stones... But they still share similar textures ingame.
    And it supports the argument the Builders of the Hornburg also were using local rocks. So they don't have to look like the same, from an artistic point of view.
    I'm not saying black rocks aren't possible. Just they are not necessary black, and that the current textures (press preview) don't offer the look I think suits best for Helms Deep.

    Here are some textures that are more real and therefore better looking:

    They used this for the mead-hall in snowborn (at night):


    from photos, some with links to original:



    ...
    Last edited by Schinderhannes; Sep 08 2013 at 05:31 PM.

  6. #56
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    (doublepost because of picture limit)



    and now the textures from Lotro's HD:


    Too much artificial fungal infestation everywhere.
    Last edited by Schinderhannes; Sep 08 2013 at 05:52 PM.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schinderhannes View Post
    So they don't have to look like the same, from an artistic point of view.
    Of course not, but it means that there isn't really any reason to argue if they do. It's a perfectly valid artistic choice to make them dark, in itself. Now as to the actual quality of the textures used and the aesthetics of the end result, that's another matter.

  8. #58
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    Helms deep may well have been designed the way it has so it can accommodate certain sections being damaged or destroyed during big battles.... No idea if true but could be a reason.

  9. #59
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    I meant artist are not forced to use black/dark textures because of the lore, or more precisely, the use of the same stones used to built the Ring of Isengard.
    Someone claimed because of this, demanding brighter textures would be in conflict with the lore. Which I think I could prove to be incorrect, so artist are able to chose freely in my opinion, but still have to hit certain expectations. For example arrangement of bricks and battlements, their color scheme and how uneven it has to be to look realistic.

    Sadly, they did not met mine. I'm just trying to change that.

    Edit: I've read something about monolits and rock cut architecture. They keep mainly the same color from the rock they were carved off. Sounds reasonable...

    http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Hornburg:

    "The Hornburg (originally Súthburg) was a great Gondorian fortress built on a rock, connected to the Deeping Wall. It guarded a deep valley nestled in the northeastern White Mountains. ..."
    That sounds at least like a partly rock cut architecture. So why not aknowlege things like this and avoid the unnatural high contrast to the mountains.
    Last edited by Schinderhannes; Sep 08 2013 at 07:20 PM.

  10. #60
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    So: you think because the mountains are called Ered Nimrais/White Montains, that the rock is white, too? I think to have read that the name came from the snow-covered peaks. (Otherwise you could say the Misty Mountains are made out of fog ^^ )

    However I also think to have read that the region around Helms Deep should consist of material like limestone which is relatively bright and therefore Helms Deep maybe should have been brighter, too...

  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orodbril View Post
    So: you think because the mountains are called Ered Nimrais/White Montains, that the rock is white, too?
    Oh, thats not fair. I didn't say that. I know they are the White Mountains because they are covered with snow...

    Just look at the current screenshots of Helms Deep and see the contrast between the mountain stones right next to the building.

  12. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schinderhannes View Post
    Just look at the current screenshots of Helms Deep and see the contrast between the mountain stones right next to the building.
    That in itself doesn't signify anything. If a bunch of Neolithic farmers could transport massive stones 150 miles when building Stonehenge, I'm sure that as advanced a people as the Dunedain were supposed to be when they first arrived (builders in stone on a truly epic scale) could have got the stone to build a fortress from somewhere some way off if there were some good reason to.

  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    That in itself doesn't signify anything. If a bunch of Neolithic farmers could transport massive stones 150 miles when building Stonehenge, I'm sure that as advanced a people as the Dunedain were supposed to be when they first arrived (builders in stone on a truly epic scale) could have got the stone to build a fortress from somewhere some way off if there were some good reason to.
    Reptilian alien spaceship helped them to transport that rocks sorry people i just think that this is totally ########. there is clash between LORE in your mind but its not about lore its about visuals (graphic) its look bad! that structure just looking like alien in that environment. Someone who choose this texture should be tortured by some latex, whip and oil (sorry im bit drunk). i would like to see you sir! take big rocks or bricks and transport them 150 miles just because of epic FUN!

    THIS IS NOT HOW LEVEL BUILDER, 2D GRAPHIC OR WHATEVER MAKE THIS LOOK THAT WAY, SHOULD WORK AS PROFESSIONAL! this is how amateur mappers worked in 2005 in Unreal Tournament

  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanielMoravek View Post
    Reptilian alien spaceship helped them to transport that rocks sorry people i just think that this is totally ########. there is clash between LORE in your mind but its not about lore its about visuals (graphic) its look bad! that structure just looking like alien in that environment. Someone who choose this texture should be tortured by some latex, whip and oil (sorry im bit drunk). i would like to see you sir! take big rocks or bricks and transport them 150 miles just because of epic FUN!

    THIS IS NOT HOW LEVEL BUILDER, 2D GRAPHIC OR WHATEVER MAKE THIS LOOK THAT WAY, SHOULD WORK AS PROFESSIONAL! this is how amateur mappers worked in 2005 in Unreal Tournament
    Like I said earlier: "Now as to the actual quality of the textures used and the aesthetics of the end result, that's another matter". Which is my understated way of saying I think it looks pretty bad, okay? But it's not wrong in principle for it to look like dark stone, or for it to contrast with its surroundings. And that's all.

  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanielMoravek View Post
    Reptilian alien spaceship helped them to transport that rocks sorry people i just think that this is totally ########. there is clash between LORE in your mind but its not about lore its about visuals (graphic) its look bad! that structure just looking like alien in that environment. Someone who choose this texture should be tortured by some latex, whip and oil (sorry im bit drunk). i would like to see you sir! take big rocks or bricks and transport them 150 miles just because of epic FUN!

    THIS IS NOT HOW LEVEL BUILDER, 2D GRAPHIC OR WHATEVER MAKE THIS LOOK THAT WAY, SHOULD WORK AS PROFESSIONAL! this is how amateur mappers worked in 2005 in Unreal Tournament
    this reiterates my point from further down into the thread. We aren't arguing that people could not have made similar looking structures or that it even involves lore. Those of us noticing just feel it was lazy development.

  16. #66
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    Tolkiens inspiration for Rohan came from Gothic and Scandinavian culture.. Gothic castles look kinda similar to HD here, even though i would prefer HD being a bit more grayish in color....

    The lore and origin of the rock is really of no importance here.. What is of importance is Tolkiens vision of Horburg and the artist ability to recognize it.

    I have to say im not satisfied with this look. The castle looks too blocky as if someone built it from legos ... And the keep seems too robust... I cant say i envisioned it like this..

  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by zagreb000 View Post
    Tolkiens inspiration for Rohan came from Gothic and Scandinavian culture.
    The Hornburg wasn't originally built by them and there's no such convenient visual reference for anything built by the ancient Dunedain.

    What is of importance is Tolkiens vision of Horburg and the artist ability to recognize it.
    The description is vague enough that this is inevitably going to be almost entirely subjective.

  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schinderhannes View Post
    Oh, thats not fair. I didn't say that. I know they are the White Mountains because they are covered with snow...

    Just look at the current screenshots of Helms Deep and see the contrast between the mountain stones right next to the building.
    Don't worry. It was just a question and neither a statement nor a blame.

    Yeah, I see it. ^^

  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    That in itself doesn't signify anything. If a bunch of Neolithic farmers could transport massive stones 150 miles when building Stonehenge, I'm sure that as advanced a people as the Dunedain were supposed to be when they first arrived (builders in stone on a truly epic scale) could have got the stone to build a fortress from somewhere some way off if there were some good reason to.
    There's just a little difference betweenn building a fortress and a religous place...

    The Neolithic men needed huge stones for Stonehenge which had to be brought from far away places because the monliths evolved during Ice Ages and are very rare and far spreaded because of this.

    While you need just hard, tough/resistand stone for building a fortress. So you can nearly use every stone which is close to you.

    So, enough, B2T ^^

  20. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orodbril View Post
    There's just a little difference betweenn building a fortress and a religous place...
    The point was, if the Dunedain could build enormous monuments then they had the technical know-how to move stone over a considerable distance if they wanted to. And they built to last, so they'd have needed to be a bit choosy over what they used.

    The Neolithic men needed huge stones for Stonehenge which had to be brought from far away places because the monliths evolved during Ice Ages and are very rare and far spreaded because of this.
    Sorry, what?

    While you need just hard, tough/resistand stone for building a fortress. So you can nearly use every stone which is close to you.
    Umm... and what if the local stone wasn't very good for some reason? Too soft, or with lots of cracks and fissures, or whatever? Good stone for building isn't always that easy to come by locally.

  21. #71
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    Maybe they were inspired a little bit by the Kölner Dom or monuments in rome
    Quote Originally Posted by Batf1nk View Post
    No. They were inspired by the textures they already used for Orthanc.
    Did I hear sarcasm? Really had to smile, thanks for that.
    It's not completely true, recycling does happen a lot though.

  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    The Hornburg wasn't originally built by them and there's no such convenient visual reference for anything built by the ancient Dunedain.
    Still, the castle has a gothic look to it...


    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    The description is vague enough that this is inevitably going to be almost entirely subjective.
    True, but then why not go with the movie look that is imo better then this in every way? I just cant understand this lego look.

    Also hornburg is supposed to be impossible to take... but looking at the pics it seems you can easily drive up a battering ram to the gate, not just a piece of log like in the movie... Comparing the layout of Ost guruth to horburg, for example, i see Og castle defensively superior.

  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    The point was, if the Dunedain could build enormous monuments then they had the technical know-how to move stone over a considerable distance if they wanted to. And they built to last, so they'd have needed to be a bit choosy over what they used.


    Sorry, what?


    Umm... and what if the local stone wasn't very good for some reason? Too soft, or with lots of cracks and fissures, or whatever? Good stone for building isn't always that easy to come by locally.
    They HAD the know-how, but it's the result of effort and utility which is important. Again the one material is very rare and there was a need to take them such a long way. For building the fortress there wouldn't be such a need - limestone is suitable enough for fortresses. And I mean to have read that the stone in the White Mountains was especially hard which had led to the hifh deposition of jewels in this area e.g. in the Glittering Caves.

    And what have you not understood in the 2nd parargraph?

  24. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by zagreb000 View Post
    Still, the castle has a gothic look to it...




    True, but then why not go with the movie look that is imo better then this in every way? I just cant understand this lego look.

    Also hornburg is supposed to be impossible to take... but looking at the pics it seems you can easily drive up a battering ram to the gate, not just a piece of log like in the movie... Comparing the layout of Ost guruth to horburg, for example, i see Og castle defensively superior.
    Nevertheless is OG a ruin while HD is still a fortress. ^^
    This isn't meant to be offensive, it's just funny.

  25. #75
    For me at least, the whole look of the Hornburg just comes off as "lazy" on the developers part. Its just really sad that it has come to this. I feel Turbine has done

    a tremendous job on recreating Middle Earth. Everytime im in Moria im just awe struck at the amount of love and detail that went into creating the feel of the place.

    Lothlorien is beautiful and sense of wonder that it gives off is second to none. Helms Deep just doesn't look " Epic" enough. It looks like it was thrown together one

    afternoon and forgot about while everyone worked on "Big Battles." It just seems to me that the Love for the game as diminished on the devs part. And that scares me.

    I feel after Mirkwood the Production Value just took a nose dive. Endenwaith, from my perspective, looks absolutely terrible. Helms Deep is probably my favorite chapter in

    the books. I, like many other players, have been looking forward to running around Hornburg, scouting on the Deeping Wall, Exploring the Glittering Caves, and defending the

    fortress against Sarumans forces. But if this effort is a view of what is to come in the coming months/ years, this very well may be the last time ill be exploring Middle Earth.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0120300000001d74c/01003/signature.png]Belaran[/charsig]

 

 
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