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  1. #26
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    In addition to the pictures from the Massively article, there are a few YouTube videos from that runthrough session. Here's the one for the Hornburg. The editing is slightly jarring, but it gives some interesting perspective on what the design is looking like at this point.

    Hornburg video
    Last edited by Elinnea; Nov 07 2013 at 05:05 PM.
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  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orodbril View Post
    Agree

    Just 2 things:
    In Agincourt there was also the fact of swampland and streets wahed out by rain I think.
    A little hint to the lore: there were mostly orcs and people of Dunland attacking HD in the books and very less Uruks while in the movies there were only Uruks... ;D
    Not only was the ground heavily rain-soaked and horribly muddy, but many French drowned in the mud, unable to get up with the extra weight of the mud clinging to them and the water soaking the cloth under their armor or trampled by fellow soldiers. Some newer estimates believe more French casualties occurred because of this than because of Henry's longbowmen.

  3. #28
    I think that the walls are just the right height,but they should be brighter,also i saw a screenshot of helms dike,now correct me if im wrong,but shouldnt helms dike be a wall ? i only see a small gate and the rest are rocks

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sthrax View Post
    Not only was the ground heavily rain-soaked and horribly muddy, but many French drowned in the mud, unable to get up with the extra weight of the mud clinging to them and the water soaking the cloth under their armor or trampled by fellow soldiers. Some newer estimates believe more French casualties occurred because of this than because of Henry's longbowmen.
    Yeah, I meant this with the mud and drowning, but the fact that historicans give more importance to the environmental problems than to the longbows is new to me.

    So enough from me referring to that and B2T. ^^

  5. #30
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    There are a couple of problems with the comparison here:

    1. Films versus books. Helm's Deep from PJ's films is in our consciousness. It's hard to escape it now. In many cases the disappointment relates to it not being what people expected, not that it is actually bad.

    2. The LOTRO HD image given is clearly of the Deeping Wall, not the Hornburg itself. Other images posted by other gaming sites show the Hornburg. It is unfair to compare the image of a wall to an image of the entire construct in PJ's films, or the games based on those films.

    3. Lighting. The lighting in the second image is very different to the first. There is a lot of sunlight. That will affect whether something appears light or dark. A comparison is unfair if the lighting used is drastically different, as it doesn't reveal the true colours of the textures used.

    I don't know about you, but Turbine's version seems to have a lot more detail than PJ's one. Someone mentioned it looked "ornate," which is a good word. Very different to what I expected, but then my mind has already been coloured by PJ's vision, like most other people.

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  6. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Elinnea View Post
    In addition to the pictures from the Massively article, there are a few YouTube videos from that runthrough session. Here's the one for the Hornburg. The editing is slightly spastic, but it gives some interesting perspective on what the design is looking like at this point.

    Hornburg video
    Ok, Helm's Deep does look a little bit better than what it did in the screenshots. But still, the wooden structures and colors are really ruining it for me. It just doesn't make much sense, why have wooden structures (which are highly flammable) on the outter wall, where they are very vulnerable to fire? I could understand them being constructed at the last minute to prepare for war, but Turbine should at least make them darker and not stand out as much.
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  7. #32
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    Wouldn't it be the same colour rock as the mountain behind it? If I were gonna be building a castle I wouldn't want to transport that much rock from far away.
    I would be quarrying the rock nearby and using local materials.

    I hear the pyramids used to be covered in marble making them shiny but over the millennia people pinched the marble leaving the solid rock underneath exposed.
    Rohan being a horse culture would probably not care so much about the aesthetics of the fort but instead be more interested in its function as a underused emergency panic room.

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by guguzza71 View Post
    Wouldn't it be the same colour rock as the mountain behind it? If I were gonna be building a castle I wouldn't want to transport that much rock from far away.
    I would be quarrying the rock nearby and using local materials.
    I'd quarry the best suitable rock within reasonable distance. This may not be the rock within sight.

    That said, I watched the youtube movie posted in this thread. I love the contours from a distance. They're good. The shape of it looks right and it's positioning too.

    But the stone is entirely too dark.

    Even the artist making the concept art for LOTRO's Helm's Deep seems to think so:


    Again, it's all about the theatrical effect. I want it to look alsmost inkblack when it's under siege, as if it's being tainted by Saruman's dark powers. But when the Rohirrim are seeking it's safety and shelter, I want it to look much more like in the image above: brightly grey as it catches the sun.

    Environmental effects (dark weather/bright weather etc) become increasingly important as the story of LOTR progresses. The weather continously mirrors the ongoing battle between Light and Dark. That's one thing the movies do well, and it's essential to visualizing the story as it's told.

    A stonework that would be bright grey in sun and darkgrey in shadow is the one needed to get the best theatrical effect out of the Hornburg.
    Last edited by Rainothon; Sep 05 2013 at 03:31 AM. Reason: spelling

  9. #34
    Sadly, I dont like the look of it (and I didnt like their version of Edoras either).

    When you compare Helms Deep to all the other Gondorian ruins in The Great River, Enedwaith etc the stone colour, style & design is different. Helms Deep is only similiar to Isengard, and I loathed that with a passion.

    I also hate the tacked on wooden structures, the overlarge horse pillars & the too bright banners.

    By and large the worldbuilding team does an excellent job, I love the look of the Rohirrim houses & small towns etc, they just seem to lose the "feel" when it comes to more recent iconic locations. Bree, Rivendell, Lothlorien & Mirkwood were all excellent.

    Helms Deep, like Isenguard just looks ugly & wrong.
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  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by angrolas View Post
    Ok, Helm's Deep does look a little bit better than what it did in the screenshots. But still, the wooden structures and colors are really ruining it for me. It just doesn't make much sense, why have wooden structures (which are highly flammable) on the outter wall, where they are very vulnerable to fire? I could understand them being constructed at the last minute to prepare for war, but Turbine should at least make them darker and not stand out as much.
    Then: why does medieval castles had constructions on their wall made out of wood? Because it's vulnerable to fire? I guess not. It's just a fast and cheap posibility to strengthen parts of a wall when they need it. And why should they do more work darkening or coloring the wood when there are a lot of thinge more to prepare before the attack? And outständing objects make it possible to attack enemies at blind spots where the normal defensers couldn't attack them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kheld_GB View Post
    Sadly, I dont like the look of it (and I didnt like their version of Edoras either).

    When you compare Helms Deep to all the other Gondorian ruins in The Great River, Enedwaith etc the stone colour, style & design is different. Helms Deep is only similiar to Isengard, and I loathed that with a passion.

    I also hate the tacked on wooden structures, the overlarge horse pillars & the too bright banners.

    By and large the worldbuilding team does an excellent job, I love the look of the Rohirrim houses & small towns etc, they just seem to lose the "feel" when it comes to more recent iconic locations. Bree, Rivendell, Lothlorien & Mirkwood were all excellent.

    Helms Deep, like Isenguard just looks ugly & wrong.
    Give me a evidence from the books where Tolkien says HD was built up by the men of Gondor? And even if they are made by Gondor: different regions have different kinds of stone. Why they should transport thousands tons of stone about thousands of kilometres? Just because they look the same? IT's simply not practical...

    Wooden structures: see above. The pillars and banners seem strange to me, too, but it's because I'm used to PJ's version. So I accept the way Turbine interpreted it and maybe I'll like it more in later time oder I don't... but not NOW.

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by guguzza71 View Post
    Wouldn't it be the same colour rock as the mountain behind it? If I were gonna be building a castle I wouldn't want to transport that much rock from far away.
    I would be quarrying the rock nearby and using local materials.

    I hear the pyramids used to be covered in marble making them shiny but over the millennia people pinched the marble leaving the solid rock underneath exposed.
    Rohan being a horse culture would probably not care so much about the aesthetics of the fort but instead be more interested in its function as a underused emergency panic room.
    * signed

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by angrolas View Post
    Ok, Helm's Deep does look a little bit better than what it did in the screenshots. But still, the wooden structures and colors are really ruining it for me. It just doesn't make much sense, why have wooden structures (which are highly flammable) on the outter wall, where they are very vulnerable to fire? I could understand them being constructed at the last minute to prepare for war, but Turbine should at least make them darker and not stand out as much.
    Actually, the wooden structures pictured on that screenshot are historically accurate for Middle Ages structures under siege. They are temporary additions that ONLY get put up when a Castle or City was being attacked. They were typically the means that the defenders had of engaging the enemy at the foot of the wall without exposing themselves to enemy archers. Also, in most cases it was NOT boiling oil that got dumped on the enemy but water. Oil is expensive while water was typically plentiful.
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  13. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Orodbril View Post
    Give me a evidence from the books where Tolkien says HD was built up by the men of Gondor? .
    Chapter: Helms Deep. "Men said that in the far-off days of the glory of Gondor the sea-kings had built here this fastness. A wall, too, the men of old had made."

    If the local stone gave the colour, fair enough, but the walls still look like something you would see in Angmar or Dol Guldur.
    Hunter & alts on Snowborne since 2007, now on Evernight.

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kheld_GB View Post
    Chapter: Helms Deep. "Men said that in the far-off days of the glory of Gondor the sea-kings had built here this fastness. A wall, too, the men of old had made."

    If the local stone gave the colour, fair enough, but the walls still look like something you would see in Angmar or Dol Guldur.
    Okay, I'm sorry, I thought I have read that it was built while the Dunlendings lived there and not by the Gondorians. sorry for that

  15. #40
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    I expect the Deeping Wall, the Burg itself and Orthanc to be dark, nearly black if not black; given the descriptions in the books. Orthanc, in particular, have me thinking of obsidian or basaltic rock (volcanic ... something the Numenorians would have been very familiar with and thus, their descendants who had been in ME from the middle of the Second Age as well as the descendants of the Exiles at the end of the Second Age/beginning of the Third).
    "No sadder words of tongue or pen are the words: 'Might have been'." -- John Greenleaf Whittier
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    Indeed, in a world and life full of change, the only constant is human nature (A is A, after all :P).
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  16. #41
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    uff i wrote something long but give up i just want agree that Isengard was horrible to by visuals its not issue of lore nor some illogical excuses. Its simply that some people at Turbine in certain department dont have time, talent or care. This was how games where done in early 2000, where everything was "good enough", today its different and Turbine need more player if they want to have bigger budget...

    People i dont know how large insight you have in gaming, i dont doubt that many of you play this game just because its from Tolkien lore so maybe your view is different (its visible in many forum topics) but if you look at gaming websites and read what gaming crowd think about this game... i will just say, it doesnt look good. And Turbine need more money... Downward spiral has started long ago...

    So yes i think that some locations in game look bad, and bar should be risen across many section of LOTRO project to move more people interested in this game... but you need money (WB) for such thing or very dedicated team of core developers. (Turbine)

    add:
    i must say that i dont even know much (names) about core team of lotro.. i see community manager but i dont know who is lead programmer or designer.. i think its mistake it could have establish some better connection (look at Epic Games, DICE, Blizzard, Bungie, Bioware even that Minecraft thing) core people are well known between gamers and industry and its good PR and community thing... communication is important.. and lure more people in.

    this post is meant in general terms not for pinpoint.
    Last edited by DanielMoravek; Sep 05 2013 at 08:30 PM.
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  17. #42
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    Yes, Isengard is dark, but that doesn't have to mean that the stones used to build it were also dark in material. Are there even dark stones other than vulcanic rocks and maybe obsidian/flint? Maybe they are just dirty, corrupted by evil or dark because of all the fires around the place.
    And even if so, Saruman "ugraded" the whole thing in the War of the Ring, maybe with dark stones, but because he had Barad-dûr in mind. He did it long after the Dúnedain of Gondor built something there, at the beginning of the 3 Age, with a completely different philosophy and architecture.
    I also agree with people saying that builders use the nearest suitable stones to build their things.

    @DanielMoravek: I agree with you. I'm missing the same thing. What happened to Orion, who was one of the few devs, who at least was trying to write some things down in his own blog? It was always interesting to have some more personal insights. Nothing was "approved". Or the live podcast @cstm with 3 or 4 turbine employees. Best episode ever!
    Last edited by Schinderhannes; Sep 07 2013 at 03:25 PM.

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanielMoravek View Post
    uff i wrote something long but give up i just want agree that Isengard was horrible to by visuals its not issue of lore nor some illogical excuses. Its simply that some people at Turbine in certain department dont have time, talent or care. This was how games where done in early 2000, where everything was "good enough", today its different and Turbine need more player if they want to have bigger budget...

    People i dont know how large insight you have in gaming, i dont doubt that many of you play this game just because its from Tolkien lore so maybe your view is different (its visible in many forum topics) but if you look at gaming websites and read what gaming crowd think about this game... i will just say, it doesnt look good. And Turbine need more money... Downward spiral has started long ago...

    So yes i think that some locations in game look bad, and bar should be risen across many section of LOTRO project to move more people interested in this game... but you need money (WB) for such thing or very dedicated team of core developers. (Turbine)

    add:
    i must say that i dont even know much (names) about core team of lotro.. i see community manager but i dont know who is lead programmer or designer.. i think its mistake it could have establish some better connection (look at Epic Games, DICE, Blizzard, Bungie, Bioware even that Minecraft thing) core people are well known between gamers and industry and its good PR and community thing... communication is important.. and lure more people in.

    this post is meant in general terms not for pinpoint.
    This dude hits it on the head.
    Using lore to excuse poor game development?
    I suppose if Gondor looks identical to Angmar we can just say the men of the west designed both places therefore no new architecture should be used.

    Maybe it is possible that the dev team and players left playing the game are out of touch. There's nothing wrong with healthy interaction with the player base.

  19. #44
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    Isengard was dark before Saruman was there. It was built up by Gondorians and later Saruman got this stronghold from Beren, Steward of Gondor (Isengard is owned by Gondor).

    So it has always been made from obsidian and therefore was ever dark.

    The only "upgrade" Saruman did was cutting down all the trees inside and around Isengard and the caverns and buildings with the smithy which were built by his first orcs... ;D

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orodbril View Post
    Isengard was dark before Saruman was there. It was built up by Gondorians and later Saruman got this stronghold from Beren, Steward of Gondor (Isengard is owned by Gondor).

    So it has always been made from obsidian and therefore was ever dark.

    The only "upgrade" Saruman did was cutting down all the trees inside and around Isengard and the caverns and buildings with the smithy which were built by his first orcs... ;D
    Proof, or it didn't happen!

    Especially the one time use of dark obsidian for every structure you see there ingame, and that the only change saruman ordered, was the destroying of the vegetation.
    Building a wall around Orthanc, and the whole structure of helms deep with dark obsidian is a ridiculusly extravagant architecture and therefore more than ... not mentioned by tolkien.

    I even would say that he did not mention orthanc itself is build/made of obsidian stone. I've just read that the numenorians magically melded stones to form the indestructable tower of orthanc. That's it. Everthing else is open for our imagination...
    Last edited by Schinderhannes; Sep 07 2013 at 04:04 PM.

  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orodbril View Post
    Isengard was dark before Saruman was there. It was built up by Gondorians and later Saruman got this stronghold from Beren, Steward of Gondor (Isengard is owned by Gondor).

    So it has always been made from obsidian and therefore was ever dark.
    Nope. Orthanc was, but the wall and towers around Isengard were made of ordinary stone, not that black stuff. We know that because the Ents tore great chunks out of the walls, knocked whole towers down, but couldn't do the same to Orthanc because whatever it was made of was too hard.

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    Nope. Orthanc was, but the wall and towers around Isengard were made of ordinary stone, not that black stuff. We know that because the Ents tore great chunks out of the walls, knocked whole towers down, but couldn't do the same to Orthanc because whatever it was made of was too hard.
    Yeah, I meant that all of Isengard is dark-stones, but the sentence with the obisidian (or maybe it's adamant) only referred to Orthanc.

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orodbril View Post
    Yeah, I meant that all of Isengard is dark-stones, but the sentence with the obisidian (or maybe it's adamant) only referred to Orthanc.
    Just to settle this, it seems that the walls of Isengard were made of black stone:

    A great ring-wall of stone, like towering cliffs, stood out from the shelter of the mountain-side, from which it ran and then returned again. One entrance only was there made in it, a great arch delved in the southern wall. Here through the black rock a long tunnel had been hewn, closed at either end with mighty doors of iron.

    So it'd be black (black granite or basalt, perhaps?), and I imagine the doors would be black iron - the general effect would be very forbidding. It's a fair argument that as the Hornburg had started off as a Dunedain fortress, its walls might look similar to Isengard's, although on a much smaller scale. You'd certainly expect the style to be much the same but as others have said, it's a fortress (and only a relatively small one at that), the place should be spartan. There are way too many banners for it to be credible, as well. The original fortress was really old - three thousand years, dating back to when the Dunedain took over those lands and made them a province of Gondor - and so it should look timeworn, with places where it had been fixed up and partly rebuilt by the Rohirrim. Turbine's way of showing that just looks unconvincing, though - reusing the same texture several times, having it dotted up and down the walls. And the horse statues really are a mistake, as are those bizarre things they stand on.

  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by DanielMoravek View Post
    I never understood why lotro visuals are so jumpy in quality, some areas are nice, they look like have been done with care and other locations look like last minute job of someone uninterested who just want paycheck or have very bad mood at least.

    thats exactly what I am trying to tell you over the last two years ...

    the Quality Content is from a time before F2P
    F2P means there are no resources for development,
    there can only be Profit made out of the stuff that already is in existence the Moment the F2P game gets puplished

    the Content that is of some Quality you got since F2P was in stock from a planed second Expansion similar
    to Moria

    the mounted combat System was never finished (according to Statements from Producers before the F2P era)

    but it was implemented in its unfinished prototype state ...

    now they are at a Point where all they had is running thin, despite their efforts to Stretch what
    they had over an absurd timespan of 2 years ... they Need to create some new Content,
    but they dont have Money to higher Quality industry standart Designers and artists,

    no new art, no raids ... just a tweaked skirmish System ...

    they can only re-use the stuff they already have, and as we see ... they will desperatly fail

    regards

  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schinderhannes View Post
    Proof, or it didn't happen!

    Especially the one time use of dark obsidian for every structure you see there ingame, and that the only change saruman ordered, was the destroying of the vegetation.
    Building a wall around Orthanc, and the whole structure of helms deep with dark obsidian is a ridiculusly extravagant architecture and therefore more than ... not mentioned by tolkien.

    I even would say that he did not mention orthanc itself is build/made of obsidian stone. I've just read that the numenorians magically melded stones to form the indestructable tower of orthanc. That's it. Everthing else is open for our imagination...

    Sorry, I haven't seen this post until now.

    Isengard was a little "stronghold" (so no real fortress, but an intrenched place) and was built by the later Gondorians.

    And because I don't have the books here atm I'm thankful for Radhruin's post.

    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    Just to settle this, it seems that the walls of Isengard were made of black stone:

    A great ring-wall of stone, like towering cliffs, stood out from the shelter of the mountain-side, from which it ran and then returned again. One entrance only was there made in it, a great arch delved in the southern wall. Here through the black rock a long tunnel had been hewn, closed at either end with mighty doors of iron.

    So it'd be black (black granite or basalt, perhaps?), and I imagine the doors would be black iron - the general effect would be very forbidding. It's a fair argument that as the Hornburg had started off as a Dunedain fortress, its walls might look similar to Isengard's, although on a much smaller scale. You'd certainly expect the style to be much the same but as others have said, it's a fortress (and only a relatively small one at that), the place should be spartan. There are way too many banners for it to be credible, as well. The original fortress was really old - three thousand years, dating back to when the Dunedain took over those lands and made them a province of Gondor - and so it should look timeworn, with places where it had been fixed up and partly rebuilt by the Rohirrim. Turbine's way of showing that just looks unconvincing, though - reusing the same texture several times, having it dotted up and down the walls. And the horse statues really are a mistake, as are those bizarre things they stand on.
    Another evidence:

    Isengard, also known as "Angrenost" (Iron Fortress) in Sindarin, was one of the three Fortresses of Gondor and held within it one of the realm's Palantiri. However, in the latter half of the Third Age, it came into the possession of Saruman and had become his personal realm until his defeat during the War of the Ring.

    And a last one: the name's etymology: Tolkien derived the name from old norse: Isen=ísarn=iron and gart=garðr=wall/enclosed area. So Isengard means Ironwall or Iron Enclosure.

 

 
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