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  1. #1
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    Hornburg visual appearence critic

    I know, the screenshots are from alpha or beta footage, but my first impression has been, that the whole architecture looks very dark... again. And in this case, unaturally dark, if you take a closer look at the textures. They look almost burned instead of just washed out or under fungal infestation.
    Maybe they were inspired a little bit by the Kölner Dom or monuments in rome, but their current dark appearence is mostly because of exhaust gas pollution if they were buit of sandstone.
    Without pollution they look much brighter if you take a look at older pictures. (1823)


    (reupload from the pressrelease)

    VS.

    Why not make the bricks more brighter like this version (currently offline) of helms deep.
    Here is a small screen of "his" HD version. It's obvisiouly inspired by the movies.



    I think it should differ much more from the angmar/mirkwood look. But that's just my opinion. I still trust in the vision of our beloved cookie and bacon abusing developers at turbine.

    Light-colored stones reflect more a fortress used by the Rohirrim, for whose sake we are fighting against the hordes of Isengard. It would fade in more naturally with the landscape of the (white-)mountains and gives a less currupted impression compared to evil Isengard or Angmar. And you should also consider, that the castle has a gondorian origin. They build bright castles and cities. (minas tirith, the white city & osgiliath...)
    Moss and dirt, no offence. They have their justification here and there, but that stones on the screenshots look just too sinister.

    I also think the generously placement of the colored and very saturated banners is bad for immersion. Why should they care for such decoration when they are fleeing from the orc invasion and are busy because of all defence preparations. Inside the hornburg, ok, otherwise simply too much in my eyes.
    Same goes to the use of battlements. Too many, too thin and too ... fancy for a low poly model.

    I hope they reconsider its look at least a little bit.

    Edit:
    I forsee they wont change much on its look, but maybe they'll take this to heart:

    Add more different textures for all the battlements you see here for example. Currently they look too similar. Almost like clones. Their textures are also weirdly stretched.

    Please reconsider the pathway to the hornburg seen here. Again, way too dark, no sign of recently heavy usage of hundreds of rohirrim refugees and their horse drawn carriages. No horseapples, no traces of anything.

    The overall heavy use of ornaments on the ground of the pathway and and on the walls is just too much in my eyes. If your intention, as a gondorian builder, was to design a beautiful grave or monument, ok, but this was built as a fortress/stronghold. Very pragmatic like most of the ruins we can discover in the real world. It was originally the home of a small gondorian regiment, according to the tolkien gateway. Why should they built this way? Were they ruled by Louix XIV.? no offence

    Last edited by Schinderhannes; Sep 08 2013 at 06:18 PM. Reason: changed horseshi t in horseapple and added more references and snarky comments
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  2. #2
    I agree to pretty much everything said here. I hope that this is a alpha model of Helm's Deep like the Argonath's alpha model was the colossus in evendim. Otherwise my faith in there world building will be diminished and I will fear for Minas Tirith.
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  3. #3
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    from these screens it doesnt look like anything stellar, from now its look like 100 times re-used textures with bad wrapping, really horrible composition, placement of staticmeshes into landscape and tone use, same staticmeshes itself they are so... meh..

    They should look at competitors how they work with visuals.
    I never understood why lotro visuals are so jumpy in quality, some areas are nice, they look like have been done with care and other locations look like last minute job of someone uninterested who just want paycheck or have very bad mood at least.

    hope it will improve (massively!) but something tell me it will not happen.

    add:
    I agree with that Minas Tirith comment, and this was maybe reason why so many jumping around (forochel, evendim and other not so important regions) because maybe they dont know how to do all important locations with complicated scenarios because of engine tech? i remember that "battle" at Isengard and it was really sad look, in that moment i just ask my self, how they want to do large battles later or even what they will want do with lotro in 2014-2017?

    Some smart person from Turbine said that doing sequels is bad so they designed game for long run, but forget or did not realize in that moment, games (yes MMOs too) will evolve and change (new generation of players with different demands on games) in period of 7-10 years so they should have been prepared for this if they wanted to do long run project like LOTRO. Maybe they did not expected how much industry and players has changed in past 7 years
    Last edited by DanielMoravek; Sep 03 2013 at 10:47 PM.
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  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by DanielMoravek View Post
    from these screens it doesnt look like anything stellar, from now its look like 100 times re-used textures with bad wrapping, really horrible composition, placement of staticmeshes into landscape and tone use, same staticmeshes itself they are so... meh..

    They should look at competitors how they work with visuals.
    I never understood why lotro visuals are so jumpy in quality, some areas are nice, they look like have been done with care and other locations look like last minute job of someone uninterested who just want paycheck or have very bad mood at least.

    hope it will improve (massively!) but something tell me it will not happen.

    add:
    I agree with that Minas Tirith comment, and this was maybe reason why so many jumping around (forochel, evendim and other not so important regions) because maybe they dont know how to do all important locations with complicated scenarios because of engine tech? i remember that "battle" at Isengard and it was really sad look, in that moment i just ask my self, how they want to do large battles later or even what they will want do with lotro in 2014-2017?

    Some smart person from Turbine said that doing sequels is bad so they designed game for long run, but forget or did not realize in that moment, games (yes MMOs too) will evolve and change (new generation of players with different demands on games) in period of 7-10 years so they should have been prepared for this if they wanted to do long run project like LOTRO. Maybe they did not expected how much industry and players has changed in past 7 years
    I haven't seen the big battles in action so I can't comment on that, what I'm talking about is the way the location looks and that Minas Tirith will probably smaller than what is described and it won't look good, I mean Minas Tirith is supposed to be 1700 feet tall and is supposed to be the largest city in middle-earth by the time of the war of the ring.
    Last edited by bamatram; Sep 04 2013 at 12:45 AM.
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  5. #5
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    it's been speculated in another thread that the rock would have been from the same quarry isengard used, which would be very dark. they were also apprantly made by the same people. so some resemblance.
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  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by bohbashum View Post
    it's been speculated in another thread that the rock would have been from the same quarry isengard used, which would be very dark. they were also apprantly made by the same people. so some resemblance.
    I am fine with the back rock though the banners and the wood attachments look out of place and wierd.
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by bamatram View Post
    I am fine with the back rock though the banners and the wood attachments look out of place and wierd.
    I know what you mean. contrast between the two colours seems off. as if they weren't not made for each other by the artists. which, I wouldn't be surprised if they wern't.

    or maybe the armourments and stuff are ment to look out of place? can see a wooden patched bit on the wall, maybe these are preparing for battle and there not normally there? who knows lol
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  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by bohbashum View Post
    I know what you mean. contrast between the two colours seems off. as if they weren't not made for each other by the artists. which, I wouldn't be surprised if they wern't.

    or maybe the armourments and stuff are ment to look out of place? can see a wooden patched bit on the wall, maybe these are preparing for battle and there not normally there? who knows lol
    Yeah just have to wait till we see more of Helm's Deep since the pictures are very vague and I still don't know what all that wood o top of the main gate is. lol. Oh and get rid of those small horse statues everywhere this is a fortress not a castle and was built for war.
    Last edited by bamatram; Sep 04 2013 at 01:02 AM.
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  9. #9
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    Helms Deep is old, very much so, I would think the dark rock is from the same quarry as Isengard, also, being as old as it is, I'm sure Rohan had to do some repairs, and since they don't have the skill the original builders did, they had to make do with what they knew, hence the wood.
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  10. #10
    I don't mind the dark look of Helm's Deep. To my eye, it's not based on Mirkwood architecture but on Isengard. Helm's Deep is in some ways a sister structure to Isengard, build around the same time by the same people for similar purposes, so it makse sense that the two would look similar. They may represent a particular era in the development of Gondoran architecture. Really, it's similar to the way the beige architecture around Bree looks different from the architecture in Evendim, although both were built by Arnor. IIRC, some of the Gondoran architecture in the Hytbold dailies and the crafting instances had somewhat different architecture from what we're used to from Gondoran buildings. I think it would be pretty dull of all Gondoran architecture looked precisely the same.

    What I don't like about Helm's Deep is how busy and blocky it looks. My first thought was that it almost looked like something built in Minecraft. I'd like a more streamlined look. As it is, Helm's Deep is just kind of ugly. As others have said, the appearance might change a bit by the time Helm's Deep goes live, but unfortunately I wouldn't expect it to change much.

    As Dawnn said, Helm's Deep is old, and it's changed hands since its orignal construction; the Rohirrim don't have the same skill with stonework that Gondor has/had. So the wooden repairs and additions make some sense, though I think it would be nice if the wood was darker in order to fit with Rohirric woodwork elsewhere. I think the horse pillars are a nice touch; they kind of clash with the Gondoran elements, but again, it's in a way that makes sense and reflects the history of the structure. Notice, if you've looked at some of the screenshots on the German site the OP linked, that the defenses around Helm's Dike look different from the main fortress; they look much more classically Rohirric. Like it or don't, but I think the mishmash of styles is intentional.

    As for Minas Tirith, I don't think the devs can shrink it by much. The city has seven levels, and I don't think they can get away with making it smaller than seven levels, as that would be a very, very obvious lorebreak. A seven-levelled city will have to be enormous by LOTRO's scale. To get an idea of how big Minas Tirith is, take a walk around Dol Guldur, notice how big it is, and realize that it's only a three-level fortress. Minas Tirith will be huge.

    DanielMoravek, I think you have a point that part of the reason LOTRO has expanded as slowly as it has is that it gives Turbine time to make plans, hone their world-designing skills, and develop their technology so that the later areas can be done justice; I think this is probably actually to the game's benefit, because it means the latter, more important, more complicated areas to be better-designed and draw on better tech. I don't think it's the main reason we've gotten areas in the order we have, though, and I actually don't think the game has strayed too far from the main path. There are several regions I would have liked to have seen by now, in fact, that aren't in the game yet, even though they could be, and in some ways I would rather have a slower march to Mordor than we've seen.

    I think the haphazard route we've taken across Middle Earth has been dictated partly by a desire to fully flesh out the stories of the people we've come across and events we've witnessed and partly by the desire to tie the most important areas of Middle Earth to expansion packs. Evendim and Forochel were primarily filler zones, I'd say, designed to keep us busy until Turbine could release Moria as the first expansion pack. Forochel is sort of a fluff zone, though an interesting one, but Evendim really serves to round out the story of Eriador. Annuminas was at one point the most important city in Middle Earth north of Osgiliath, so it's important that we got to see it; it also allowed Turbine to add some depth to the rangers, who are among the most important players in Middle Earth. Then we got Moria and Lothlorien, which are of course important zones to get. Then we got Southern Mirkwood, which completes the story of Lothlorien and sets the stage for later conflicts between Dol Guldur and Lothlorien. Then the devs threw us a curveball by taking us south through Enedwaith to Dunland; as confusing as this was at the time, it allowed us to see the stories of the Grey Company, Dunland, and Isengard, which are all important stories to tell and which will add a lot of depth to this upcoming expansion pack. Then we circled back around and approached Rohan from the east... again, it was confusing, but it's meant that we've been able to experience the Breaking of the Fellowship events of Rohan in their proper order. The Great River, like Enedwaith, and like Eregion way back, were important simply for bridging the geographical gaps between more interesting areas. And most recently, we've gotten Wildermore. Wildermore, again, is largely fluff, but it was fluff that allowed us to stay focused on Rohan's story while we waited for Western Rohan and Helm's Deep.
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  11. #11
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    Hate to be a sour grape in this thread but that image from the game of Helms Deep looks nothing like what I was expecting. It looks like its from some other story or era and dramatically draws away from the epic story. What in the world were the graphic designers thinking when they came up with this? I agree with the OP about the look. Looks like it was just plonked in the corner there without any real thought. Feels like playing in some bad cartoon

  12. #12
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    And even if we are all influenced from the movies and actual real ruins, the next castle is 3km away from me btw. (germany... ), I think it's at least a cultural bias that should be acknowledged when creating/presenting helms deep and its stronghold.
    Last edited by Schinderhannes; Sep 04 2013 at 11:09 AM.
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  13. #13
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    Well, by contrast, my reaction to pictures of the Hornburg* was "Hm, old Gondorian work; that figures." And then "It's in very good
    condition; they've been maintaining it, probably out of need." And then, "And from what I can see of the layout, it's a very defensible
    fortress. Good."

    As I take my younger alts through Eriador, I see the old Arnorian ruins and try to imagine what they were like when they were new.
    They were pretty darned defensible, too. This is important if you're trying to ... defend something. The stonework is indeed lighter
    in colour, having come from different quarries.

    The possibility that the stone came from the same (or geologically related) quarries as Isengard makes sense. But really, people,
    everything doesn't have to be bright and pretty.

    _____
    *The Hornburg is the name of the fortress. Helm's Deep is the canyon that it's in.
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  14. #14
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    Looking at the screenshots it would seem they are going for a similar design to Isengard, which makes a lot of sense. More so than a brighter, 'Minas Tirith' like stonework.

    I'm not sure what to think of it as a whole at this point really. I'll have to elect to withhold judgement until I see it for myself, either in Live or in Beta.

    And just as an aside, there were numerous locations in the RoR Beta that underwent multiple makeovers as the Beta progressed. Not just the Argonath, but also Eorl's Hallow for example. I would be surprised if what we see now is the exact same as what we get in a few months time. Although I wouldn't bet on the core theme changing at all, so adjustment to that may be called for.
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  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by djheydt View Post
    Well, by contrast, my reaction to pictures of the Hornburg* was "Hm, old Gondorian work; that figures." And then "It's in very good
    condition; they've been maintaining it, probably out of need." And then, "And from what I can see of the layout, it's a very defensible
    fortress. Good."

    As I take my younger alts through Eriador, I see the old Arnorian ruins and try to imagine what they were like when they were new.
    They were pretty darned defensible, too. This is important if you're trying to ... defend something. The stonework is indeed lighter
    in colour, having come from different quarries.

    The possibility that the stone came from the same (or geologically related) quarries as Isengard makes sense. But really, people,
    everything doesn't have to be bright and pretty.

    _____
    *The Hornburg is the name of the fortress. Helm's Deep is the canyon that it's in.
    Just get rid of the banners the more I look at Helm's Deep the more I start to like it except those god-awful banners everywhere.
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  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by bamatram View Post
    Just get rid of the banners the more I look at Helm's Deep the more I start to like it except those god-awful banners everywhere.
    Banners aren't surprising. The absence of banners would be far more unusual, in fact. For millennia armies have gone to great length to ornament themselves, to stand out. One could easily imagine every riding, company, troop, platoon, cohort(pick your unit size and name) would have banners, either the king's banner or their own individual banners. They were used for identification among units that rarely fought together, for esprit de corp, for simple ego. You can damn well bet that even as Theoden and company were racing from Edoras to the Hornburg some collection of squires were bumbling about riding with all manner of banners and pennants.

  17. #17
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    I guess I'm biased by the movies. I'd like a lot lighter stonework.

    Also I'd like a much smoother look. All the jutting out stuff and layering of the stonework makes the wall look less high than it probably actually is.


    You know, as long as the theatrical contrast between the 'sunlit, imposing, safe Hornburg, not under siege yet' and the 'downcast, rainy, thundery, darkened Hornburg under siege' is there. For me the play between light (safehaven), dark (under siege), darkest (is Saruman winning?) and climax to light (the battle is won!) is what is at the heart of the battle at Helm's Deep.

    That, and a zillion uruks.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Schinderhannes View Post
    Maybe they were inspired a little bit by the Kölner Dom or monuments in rome
    No. They were inspired by the textures they already used for Orthanc.

  19. #19
    Though we have seen only 3 pictures so far from Helms Deep and cant judge properly, to be frank things doesn't look bright.

    When you speak of Helms Deep you speak about an Idea.About Epicness about something Huge and "Huge". Small walls wont cut it for me.

    When RoR came out the first thing i said in my feedback was larger spaces. With MC on the scene spaces have diminished dramatically.

    It wont be any fan to reach from Argonath to Helms Deep in 3 minutes. And now i see that the valley in front of Helms Deep look pretty small (if the picture doesn't play tricks on my eyes). But that i can swallow. What i cant, is small, pretty decorated walls.

    Is that the fortess that will fill any enemy with fear in his heart? NO! Dol duldur was impressive but pretty much an image no place to explore. Isengard was dissaponted for me especially the walls and now i see HD follows the same mediocrity. I know its silly to say all these from three pictures but since a thread was created i had to step in. And I am also starting losing hope for Minas Tirith.

    I would be very glad the guys there to proved me wrong though!

  20. #20
    Not going to try to argue that the Hornburg looks especially epic, because it doesn't. It looks functional, though, like it was designed for its purpose, which was defense. Further, nowhere, except in our imaginations, has it ever been stated that the Hornburg actually WAS in any way especially imposing or epic. This wasn't Minas Tirith with its massive, impenetrable walls, layers of defense, and 7(?) concentric gated rings. The hornburg was a relatively small outpost fortress of Gondor. Its main strength wasn't in the thickness or height of its walls, it was in its position and terrain. Because of the mountains it couldn't be flanked, it had to be attacked head on, similarly, any army would become compressed tighter and tighter by the narrowing valley. By keeping the direction of the attack to one axis and bunching enemies up, a smaller army could make a successful defense against a much larger force(a rain of arrows works best when it becomes nearly impossible to miss, think Agincourt). Tolkien's Hornburg didn't have massive walls, remember that the uruks used scaling ladders for the assault, meaning the walls were rather shorter than our imaginations would have them be.

    As for the colors, I hold that they should be similar in color to the walls of isengard, same builders, similar stones quarried for their construction. I'll grant you that the textures aren't great, hopefully this press packet represents earlier builds and they'll receive more polish before live.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by bamatram View Post
    I agree to pretty much everything said here. I hope that this is a alpha model of Helm's Deep like the Argonath's alpha model was the colossus in evendim. Otherwise my faith in there world building will be diminished and I will fear for Minas Tirith.
    Since Helm's Deep will be the new endgame, so you can bet that there were probably some aesthetic sacrifices made in designing the area for gameplay reasons. I wouldn't worry too much about Minas Tirith because I'm sure it will be designed mostly for cosmetic reasons, which will give the world designers more freedom in the overall design of the city.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Schinderhannes View Post
    I know, the screenshots are from alpha or beta footage, but my first impression has been, that the whole architecture looks very dark... again. And in this case, unaturally dark, if you take a closer look at the textures. They look almost burned instead of just washed out or under fungal infestation.
    Maybe they were inspired a little bit by the Kölner Dom or monuments in rome, but their current dark appearence is mostly because of exhaust gas pollution if they were buit of sandstone.
    Without pollution they look much brighter if you take a look at older pictures. (1823)



    VS.

    Why not make the bricks more brighter like this version (currently offline) of helms deep.
    Here is a small screen of "his" HD version. It's obvisiouly inspired by the movies.



    I think it should differ much more from the angmar/mirkwood look. But that's just my opinion. I still trust in the vision of our beloved cookie and bacon abusing developers at turbine.

    Light-colored stones reflect more a fortress used by the Rohirrim, for whose sake we are fighting against the hordes of Isengard. It would fade in more naturally with the landscape of the (white-)mountains and gives a less currupted impression compared to evil Isengard or Angmar. And you should also consider, that the castle has a gondorian origin. They build bright castles and cities. (minas tirith, the white city & osgiliath...)
    Moss and dirt, no offence. They have their justification here and there, but that stones on the screenshots look just too sinister.

    I also think the generously placement of the colored and very saturated banners is bad for immersion. Why should they care for such decoration when they are fleeing from the orc invasion and are busy because of all defence preparations. Inside the hornburg, ok, otherwise simply too much in my eyes.
    Same goes to the use of battlements. Too many, too thin and too ... fancy for a low poly model.

    I hope they reconsider its look at least a little bit.

    Edit:
    I forsee they wont change much on its look, but maybe they'll take this to heart:

    Add more different textures for all the battlements you see here for example. Currently they look too similar. Almost like clones. Their textures are also weirdly stretched.

    Please reconsider the pathway to the hornburg seen here. Again, way too dark, no sign of recently heavy usage of hundreds of rohirrim refugees and their horse drawn carriages. No horseapples, no traces of anything.

    The overall heavy use of ornaments on the ground of the pathway and and on the walls is just too much in my eyes. If your intention, as a gondorian builder, was to design a beautiful grave or monument, ok, but this was built as a fortress/stronghold. Very pragmatic like most of the ruins we can discover in the real world. It was originally the home of a small gondorian regiment, according to the tolkien gateway. Why should they built this way? Were they ruled by Louix XIV.? no offence

    One the one side: I really like the way HD was built up in the movies and I think the second version is not only inspired by the movies, it looks like a copy.

    But by the reason that many people like how it looks in the movies isn't a real reason to try new other ways how it could look like and LOTRO is based on the books and not on the movies, so why they shouldn't try new things? And it's predictable that a new version would be liked by some and disliked by others. It's the same like it was propably in the movies.

    So I like some things of the "new" HD but I also dislike some things or not dislike them, the only thing is that I'm not used to it and they look strange because I'm used to the version of the movies (which mostly concern the many ornaments and statues and flags).

    What I really like is the other wall, a few hundred meters in front of the actual stronghold which wasn't used in the movies.
    The dark look also isn't wrong, it's just darkened through the milenniums which leads to another point. Referring to a legend of the Rohiriim I think the Hornburg was built up by giants, but although it's a legend I think it was built up by the people who later became the people of Dunland after they were expelled by the Rohirrim. So HD was built before people of Gondor came into this region and because of this naturally before the Rohirrim came.

    And just a word: please, don't use sinister as a negative word because it's also a term for left-handed people to and they could feel defended. Even I'm a right-hand.

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by BackAgainAndThere View Post
    Since Helm's Deep will be the new endgame, so you can bet that there were probably some aesthetic sacrifices made in designing the area for gameplay reasons. I wouldn't worry too much about Minas Tirith because I'm sure it will be designed mostly for cosmetic reasons, which will give the world designers more freedom in the overall design of the city.
    I have a feeling the BB system will have a future use at Minis Tirith.

    Quote Originally Posted by bamatram View Post
    I haven't seen the big battles in action so I can't comment on that, what I'm talking about is the way the location looks and that Minas Tirith will probably smaller than what is described and it won't look good, I mean Minas Tirith is supposed to be 1700 feet tall and is supposed to be the largest city in middle-earth by the time of the war of the ring.
    So far they have a good record with making epically huge places, Carn Dum Castle and Dol Guldur are ridiculously massive. It wouldn't surprise me if DG and Orthanc are close to that height by the game's scale. So I still have high hopes for Minas Tirith.
    i agree with the OP about HD though. I wasn't expecting it to be massive, it seems about the right size, but the look is too ornate i think. Too much fancy architecture and decorations, that 2nd picture is a good example of how i think it should look. Less ornate, and more streamlined and battle worn. i know most of us have this image in our mind taken from the movie, but I think PJ and Alan Lee got it right.

    Goreamir - 100 Cap | Jinwe - 88 Hnt | Celebourne - 90 Champ | Humblefoot - 75 Min | Dorfus - 74 Grd | Creonath - 55 Wdn | Stormcraban - 35 LM | Whippit - 35 Brg | Thangadir - 33 RK | Bucksexton - 24 Bng

  24. #24
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    Jun 2011
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    Quote Originally Posted by thefamilyosc View Post
    Not going to try to argue that the Hornburg looks especially epic, because it doesn't. It looks functional, though, like it was designed for its purpose, which was defense. Further, nowhere, except in our imaginations, has it ever been stated that the Hornburg actually WAS in any way especially imposing or epic. This wasn't Minas Tirith with its massive, impenetrable walls, layers of defense, and 7(?) concentric gated rings. The hornburg was a relatively small outpost fortress of Gondor. Its main strength wasn't in the thickness or height of its walls, it was in its position and terrain. Because of the mountains it couldn't be flanked, it had to be attacked head on, similarly, any army would become compressed tighter and tighter by the narrowing valley. By keeping the direction of the attack to one axis and bunching enemies up, a smaller army could make a successful defense against a much larger force(a rain of arrows works best when it becomes nearly impossible to miss, think Agincourt). Tolkien's Hornburg didn't have massive walls, remember that the uruks used scaling ladders for the assault, meaning the walls were rather shorter than our imaginations would have them be.

    As for the colors, I hold that they should be similar in color to the walls of isengard, same builders, similar stones quarried for their construction. I'll grant you that the textures aren't great, hopefully this press packet represents earlier builds and they'll receive more polish before live.
    Agree

    Just 2 things:
    In Agincourt there was also the fact of swampland and streets wahed out by rain I think.
    A little hint to the lore: there were mostly orcs and people of Dunland attacking HD in the books and very less Uruks while in the movies there were only Uruks... ;D

  25. #25
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
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    316
    Quote Originally Posted by Celebrawn View Post
    I have a feeling the BB system will have a future use at Minis Tirith.
    Oh yeah that's true, unless BB's end up utterly failing.

 

 
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