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  1. #1

    Pay to advance crafting... when did this happen?

    If you take a look at the weekly store sales page: https://www.lotro.com/en/lotrostoresale .. you might notice the item 'Complete Crafting Tiers'. I was never aware this was available until now and trying to find it in the store on a VIP character met with no success. I am led to believe that this is a new item.

    So perhaps the slippery slope of pay-to-win is sliding just a bit. I realize the producers and developers may not view crafting and the player economy it brings as a core element of the game, but many do. I would have to admit that that includes me.

    How long before 'tired of questing? .. adjust your character to level x for only y tp'. Don't kid yourselves. UO did this many years ago after the grindy nature of the aging game was perceived as a barrier to entry.

    Perhaps this has been around for a bit and I was just unaware of it.

    Your thoughts?

  2. #2
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    This have been around for pretty long (I guess it is secret store update delivered with RoR).
    And be sure, lotro is totally p2w game.

  3. #3
    lol p2w

    i'm the type that isn't trying to 'win' lotro. i'm enjoying the ride. it's an adventure. i've never understood the rush to end game. it's called 'end game' for a reason and i'd rather enjoy it as long as possible. IF i ever max a toon i'll simple roll another one and enjoy the whole experience again a different way.

  4. #4
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    These have been around for a while.

    Not sure how skipping a crafting tier is "winning". It saves a little bit of time and maybe in-game gold, true, on the other hand you'll not get the character-XP from crafting (as stupid as that is in the first place). I'd rather consider the whole LI section or the 100% crit scroll in the store to be p2w than the crafting tiers.
    Mind, doesn't mean I support these things in the store, but people are a bit fast with the "omg p2w" cries recently.
    Either way, lower-tier crafting in this game is mostly a chore currently, so there's definitely a market for these, and if that money is used to improve the game and maybe even the crafting system I won't object.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by goldensilence View Post
    lol p2w

    i'm the type that isn't trying to 'win' lotro. i'm enjoying the ride. it's an adventure. i've never understood the rush to end game. it's called 'end game' for a reason and i'd rather enjoy it as long as possible. IF i ever max a toon i'll simple roll another one and enjoy the whole experience again a different way.
    Right.

    Back when whh and I were playing AC1, our first MMO, somebody asked whh about it, and after getting a brief description, asked, "But how do you win?"

    "You don't win. You survive."
    Last edited by djheydt; Aug 30 2013 at 10:35 AM.
    Eruanne - Shards of Narsil-1 - Elendilmir -> Arkenstone

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by PypeRings View Post
    If you take a look at the weekly store sales page: https://www.lotro.com/en/lotrostoresale .. you might notice the item 'Complete Crafting Tiers'. I was never aware this was available until now and trying to find it in the store on a VIP character met with no success. I am led to believe that this is a new item.

    So perhaps the slippery slope of pay-to-win is sliding just a bit. I realize the producers and developers may not view crafting and the player economy it brings as a core element of the game, but many do. I would have to admit that that includes me.

    How long before 'tired of questing? .. adjust your character to level x for only y tp'. Don't kid yourselves. UO did this many years ago after the grindy nature of the aging game was perceived as a barrier to entry.

    Perhaps this has been around for a bit and I was just unaware of it.

    Your thoughts?
    LOL I don't know how you can say it's P2W, it's crafting & your not gaining an advantage over others while playing the game.

    Furthermore if people want to squander there money on things like this so they can further there crafting faster, who cares! It's there money. As you can see these tiers are not cheap & I don't know too many that would waste tps on something like this.

    Just like someone claiming those guards they have for your houses is P2W... LOL

    That idiotic term is so abused around here it's not even funny...
    It's not Teal... it's [SIZE=3][COLOR=#00ffff][B]CYAN[/B][/COLOR][/SIZE]!

  7. #7
    I guess the consensus so far is that crafting advancement is fundamentally different from character level advancement. Fair enough for those that view it that way.

    And please, I didn't say OMG or the sky is falling. I am simply raising the topic for discussion. So please do add fake hyperbole where there is none.

    So, as a thought experiment, if the item was 'Increase your character by 5 levels instantly', how would you view it? No big deal or would you find that objectionable in some way?

  8. #8
    for crafting....no big deal for me. there are times when (maybe on an alt), it's just too time consuming to run around gathering mats or standing in from of a study/forge/oven, etc. is just too much...

    personally i harvest as many of my own mats as i can and stand in front of the forge watching it bang out 100 dwarven iron ingots so i can master the artisan tier. but if someone else wants to just skip and move on to a tier where they have the mats...more power to them.

  9. #9
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    You only just noticed them? They've been there for a very long time. At the very least a year, probably longer, i remember seeing them just after coming back after a long break last august.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Edrogar View Post
    You only just noticed them? They've been there for a very long time.
    Yes, just today. I don't keep up with the store that much.

    And, in fact, seems that that item is not available to me even now. Rate boosters yes, complete tier skips, no. Perhaps because of my account type. I don't know.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by PypeRings View Post
    Yes, just today. I don't keep up with the store that much.

    And, in fact, seems that that item is not available to me even now. Rate boosters yes, complete tier skips, no. Perhaps because of my account type. I don't know.
    They're only visible if the relevant tier is not complete on your character. If you have finished all the crafting tiers then you won't see them in the store.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by PypeRings View Post
    So, as a thought experiment, if the item was 'Increase your character by 5 levels instantly', how would you view it? No big deal or would you find that objectionable in some way?
    Given the XP inflation in this game and all the XP buffs you can get, I wouldn't consider direct-level-purchases a big deal if the price is high enough. Wether people power-level using boosters in skirmishes or spend $100 to skip 10-20 levels directly doesn't make much difference. If levelling would actually require effort things would be different.

    Mind this is quite different from crafting though: the crafting experience is pretty much the same at every tier/level, so you're not really missing anything by skipping one or multiple tiers. Character experience however can change quite a bit with higher levels, so people buying levels are mostly punishing themselves.

    The real problem for me is stuff in the store that enhances your game-play and that isn't readily available to be earned in game. Like as said the whole LI section, 100% crit scrolls, stat tomes or virtues. If moors wouldn't be a total design failure also the buyable creep skills/traits/whatever.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by PypeRings View Post
    I guess the consensus so far is that crafting advancement is fundamentally different from character level advancement. Fair enough for those that view it that way.

    And please, I didn't say OMG or the sky is falling. I am simply raising the topic for discussion. So please do add fake hyperbole where there is none.

    So, as a thought experiment, if the item was 'Increase your character by 5 levels instantly', how would you view it? No big deal or would you find that objectionable in some way?
    LOL kinda like your OP....
    It's not Teal... it's [SIZE=3][COLOR=#00ffff][B]CYAN[/B][/COLOR][/SIZE]!

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by PypeRings View Post
    If you take a look at the weekly store sales page: https://www.lotro.com/en/lotrostoresale .. you might notice the item 'Complete Crafting Tiers'. I was never aware this was available until now and trying to find it in the store on a VIP character met with no success. I am led to believe that this is a new item.

    So perhaps the slippery slope of pay-to-win is sliding just a bit. I realize the producers and developers may not view crafting and the player economy it brings as a core element of the game, but many do. I would have to admit that that includes me.

    How long before 'tired of questing? .. adjust your character to level x for only y tp'. Don't kid yourselves. UO did this many years ago after the grindy nature of the aging game was perceived as a barrier to entry.

    Perhaps this has been around for a bit and I was just unaware of it.

    Your thoughts?
    This started the first day of the store. The option to 'get ingredient packs' made it so you would never have to go gather mats.

    This is a little more straight forward. But I see nothing wrong with it. I leveled crafters the old fashioned way, and I always will. I never understood the mentality that would want to 'buy' toons, buy achievments off the web. But people do. I have always put forth the idea I'd much rather the game maker, Turbine in this instance, get this money instead of professional farmers.

    I wish Turbine would sell gold, sell fully leveled toons, sell it all. Drive the farmers out of business. Other people in game having something has never diminished my having it. I play games for relaxation and to pass free time. So while it may take me hours and hours to achieve something, I could 'buy' with real world cash, this will never tempt me. I do understand part of their position. The people that buy these things that is, they say I only have X time to play and I have a lot of money because I make XXX $$ an hour, week so paying $$$ for something 'in game' that saves me time is worth it. To repeat myself, other people like to do this. Other people do buy fully leveled toons. Other people do buy game gold, and they always have, they have just bought it off ebay or some other online source. I'd much rather turbine get this money.

    To me though I have no interest. Like someone else said. The journey there is as much fun if not more fun then being there. Regardless if I have 6 hours free to play or 30 hours free to play - leveling a toon or working on a toon is as fine a way to pass that time as standing around fully leveled and fully geared. Other people would rather spend that time standing around already fully geared and are happy to pay someone for the privilege.
    Last edited by Gandie2; Aug 30 2013 at 11:58 AM.

  15. #15
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    If you are using P2W to describe LOTRO you have no clue what the term means. It does not mean I have no money so those that do are paying to win.
    Pay to make it easy, pay to power level, sure. But this game isn't a competition, there is no "win". The term may apply to PVP games, but LOTRO; for the most part, is not PVP. Oh the PVMP may be, but I see that as little more then a side game, unnecessary to actual play or finish the game. Something Turbine dropped it to cash in on some PVP players.

  16. #16
    Alright, so 'pay to win' is a bit pejorative. So how about we talk about 'pay to advance' or 'pay to make it easy' if you would prefer that.

    As to if the game is a competition or not, I think that is a matter of perspective to the individual player. If you don't think so, just look at the recent thread about who was the first to get to tier 3 in hobbit bounties.

    I know its hard, but better to make this thread about ideas, instead of me, the original poster. And there have been some thoughtful comments. If might be interesting if more address the subject instead of the messenger or semantics of the original post... emphasis here on 'might'.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by PypeRings View Post
    Alright, so 'pay to win' is a bit pejorative. So how about we talk about 'pay to advance' or 'pay to make it easy' if you would prefer that.

    As to if the game is a competition or not, I think that is a matter of perspective to the individual player. If you don't think so, just look at the recent thread about who was the first to get to tier 3 in hobbit bounties.

    I know its hard, but better to make this thread about ideas, instead of me, the original poster. And there have been some thoughtful comments. If might be interesting if more address the subject instead of the messenger or semantics of the original post... emphasis here on 'might'.
    Sure, if you want to throw some money at it now for instant gratification and no effort, feel free. Doesn't effect my game.

    Note: There is a big difference in a perceived winner and actually winning. As in some racing games, bad driving gets you time penalties, so crossing the finish line first does not mean you won.
    Getting there first gains you naught but some meaningless barging rites, it has no bearing on the game, you haven't actually won anything. The players prospective is meaningless, as you haven't won anything. The only place in this game where coming in first counts for anything is the horse races.
    So to me, someone buying there way to the top means nothing other then they are in a hurry, don't want to put any effort in to it, and has money to throw away. Simple as that.

  18. #18
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    It happens since FTP started, they have to pay TP to unlock next crafting tier.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by goldensilence View Post
    lol p2w

    i'm the type that isn't trying to 'win' lotro. i'm enjoying the ride. it's an adventure. i've never understood the rush to end game. it's called 'end game' for a reason and i'd rather enjoy it as long as possible. IF i ever max a toon i'll simple roll another one and enjoy the whole experience again a different way.
    Well said! I'm with you. I've been playing for over 2 years, and I am only *now* on the verge of LVL 85 with my first character, savoring every minute.

  20. #20
    As it is crafting is nearly useless (from a money-making point of view). Most of the utility items can be purchased from the store already, as well as fluff like dyes. How, exactly, do you see someone purchasing a crafting tier as getting an advantage over someone else? I'm honestly curious about why you think that has an impact in the overall scheme of things.

    As for buying levels, I think it's about time MMOs starting implementing this kind of feature. Let's be realistic. You have an MMO that's over 5 years old and with the new expansion the level cap will be 95. Not all new players will see that as a good thing. Not all new players like to power-level, either. For the casual gamer wanting to start LOTRO that's a really long leveling curve ahead of them before they can join in the end game content where most of the population resides. With the scale-up feature of Helm's Deep, that will alleviate some of that problem. But still, 95 levels is a lot for a casual gamer, especially one that likes to have multiple alts.

    I personally don't care if someone wants to buy their way to level cap. How does it affect me? Now, of course, they might not be the best raider since they would be unfamiliar with all of their skills, but that's just one aspect of the game and certainly something that can be overcome with practice and experience. I mean, we're not really competing with each other here in the PvE side of the game.

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by PypeRings View Post
    Alright, so 'pay to win' is a bit pejorative. So how about we talk about 'pay to advance' or 'pay to make it easy' if you would prefer that.

    As to if the game is a competition or not, I think that is a matter of perspective to the individual player. If you don't think so, just look at the recent thread about who was the first to get to tier 3 in hobbit bounties.

    I know its hard, but better to make this thread about ideas, instead of me, the original poster. And there have been some thoughtful comments. If might be interesting if more address the subject instead of the messenger or semantics of the original post... emphasis here on 'might'.
    You are VIP I take it?

    • VIP. You are paying money per month, and in exchange you get access to all the areas/quests/instances. You get a stipend of 500 TP a month, you get all the bags, riding skill at lvl 20, you get swift travel to a huge number of destinations, you get a large number of character slots... a list of perks.
    • Free 2 Play. Two character slots. Three bags. A large number of travel locations are not available at all, let alone not available for swift travel. You spend your game time running from place to place. You only get quests for four areas and after that any level advancement is essentially all about the grind. The list goes on here too.


    That right there makes VIP sound like 'pay to make it easy' or 'pay to advance'. You don't have to look ANY further than just that comparison if you want to see how paying Turbine money makes the game easier to play.

    Discussion after that, about taking shortcuts for leveling your crafting (hey, the DEVS built-in a crafting category called Processing in Eastemnet that makes leveling it a breeze, fyi), paying money to make leveling even easier (than going VIP), etc. Now, you want to talk about earning TP in game? Oh yeah. Earning TP in game to turn around and spend at the store to make playing the game easier. You could grind on slayer deeds, and earn enough TP to purchase Slayer deed accelerators... of course, the amount of TP you spend on the accelerators is more than you would earn from completing the deeds while using them, so it's still a net loss. Then again, you could pay money for the TP to purchase the Slayer deed accelerators. Then you are paying money for TP to earn TP faster in the game.

    Turbine wants and needs to make their money. They SHOULD make their money. We are all enjoying this game, and in all honestly, there is absolutely no reason at all why any of us should think we have a right to expect the game (and everything in it) to be provided for us for free. Take it to an extreme. If we ALL decided to play the game for free, and not pay a dime... how much longer do you think LOTRO would be around? They lasted as long as they did at first, because they were a Pay2Play game. They added the Free2Play model to attract more people in. This, we all know. So, if Turbine wants to dangle a diamond-studded carrot in front of players, and some feel they need to take a bite (ouch), let them. The world has always been full of people who want to show off that they have something most people do not.

    If it bothers Jimmy that Sam paid Turbine cash money to get to level 85 really quick, and that he paid cash money for his awesome armor and steed and weapons... that's Jimmy's problem. That's not Turbine's problem.

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by bongart View Post
    You are VIP I take it?

    • VIP. You are paying money per month, and in exchange you get access to all the areas/quests/instances. You get a stipend of 500 TP a month, you get all the bags, riding skill at lvl 20, you get swift travel to a huge number of destinations, you get a large number of character slots... a list of perks.
    • Free 2 Play. Two character slots. Three bags. A large number of travel locations are not available at all, let alone not available for swift travel. You spend your game time running from place to place. You only get quests for four areas and after that any level advancement is essentially all about the grind. The list goes on here too.


    That right there makes VIP sound like 'pay to make it easy' or 'pay to advance'. You don't have to look ANY further than just that comparison if you want to see how paying Turbine money makes the game easier to play.
    Actually, there's a huge difference. Many, if not most VIP players are just people who were paying to play the game to begin with (such as me, since 2008). They just didn't stop paying because they wanted their gameplay experience to be the same way it's always been. Quests unlocked and swift travels and AH and such was not invented to make people play VIP. It was always there to begin with. The items the OP is referring to, however, were added just to make people pay money to make their game easier.

  23. #23
    In my opinion, it only really impacts lotteries that have entry barriers. So, someone spent extra money to move up in level, the only real 'benefit' they'd gain is qualifying for higher level lotteries (if and when they are posted).

    It isn't as though there is massive demand in the AH for crafted items.

    Not a major issue for me.

 

 

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