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  1. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Shintagh View Post
    It is, it's actually way too good which is why it's frowned upon in 1v1s on our server. TBH if I use that in 1v1s I probably wouldn't drop below 10k morale. Js..
    Not going to dispute that that is definitely the best ring, because it is but: Unless you're referring to a Defiler fight, you're saying that you don't drop below 8k without the ring?

    the ring is worth 1515 morale every 45 seconds. If you're a man champ, you have what, 12% incoming healing? So that becomes ~1700 every 45s. Are many 1v1s lasting over 45s for you?



    A few other points toward Kidefence's comments and questions about free morale and gearswapping. In a weaver fight that didn't lead off with a stun, I'd agree with you about 'housekeeping' skills/debuffs, but the fact is that reaver's buffs/debuffs (excluding glory in victory) cannot be maintained full-time.

    Regarding utility LIs (since I don't moors champ, this is an assumption) you're referring to starting fights with your cooldown swap LIs, and having high vit/morale/mits type relics on them, and starting fights with them equipped? Being r13 and having access to 'free' 1st agers helps in this, since your utility LIs can probably max all your cooldowns and still get points into dps and a dps legacy or two. That being said, are you really running 6 LIs in order to effectively facilitate starting a fight with higher morale LIs (1-h dps, 2-h dps, dps rune, utility rune, 1-h utility, 2-h utility) Unless you aren't doing weapon swaps to start the fight, in which case, I'd wonder why you think that approach is more effective than more jewelry/armour swaps.
    Last edited by spelunker; Sep 02 2013 at 12:20 PM.
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  2. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    Not going to dispute that that is definitely the best ring, because it is but: Unless you're referring to a Defiler fight, you're saying that you don't drop below 8k without the ring?

    the ring is worth 1515 morale every 45 seconds. If you're a man champ, you have what, 12% incoming healing? So that becomes ~1700 every 45s. Are many 1v1s lasting over 45s for you?
    It really depends, if they get a crit/dev on the 2nd Impale they might have an opening to follow up with DS quickly into a potential kill but with that extra 1700 heal you're above DS range lowering their dps quite a bit. And yea against most Reavers if I'm gear swapping I beat them with 6-8k morale left and yes the spars last between 40-60 sec so if the ring procs early on you might get to use it twice, making it a 3400 heal, which it usually does.



    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    Regarding utility LIs (since I don't moors champ, this is an assumption) you're referring to starting fights with your cooldown swap LIs, and having high vit/morale/mits type relics on them, and starting fights with them equipped? Being r13 and having access to 'free' 1st agers helps in this, since your utility LIs can probably max all your cooldowns and still get points into dps and a dps legacy or two. That being said, are you really running 6 LIs in order to effectively facilitate starting a fight with higher morale LIs (1-h dps, 2-h dps, dps rune, utility rune, 1-h utility, 2-h utility) Unless you aren't doing weapon swaps to start the fight, in which case, I'd wonder why you think that approach is more effective than more jewelry/armour swaps.
    I have 6 LIs for moors. 2 morale stacked(to start the fight with) 2 mastery stacked(for groups/raids and seeking>remorseless in 1v1s) 2 crit stacked(for swapping in 1v1 after I lose morale) and a swap LI for sd/sprint etc. I also swap several pieces of jewellery and bow. The wildermoore tanky bow with 1.8 phys mits and 2k crit d is very hot against Reavers.

    With full gear swapping, bracing, morale pot and heal ring the Reaver has to do about 25k dmg to win which is just not going to happen. That's why I pretty much never use ring and use bracing only against like 1 or 2 Reavers that are just beastly.

  3. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Shintagh View Post
    And yea against most Reavers if I'm gear swapping I beat them with 6-8k morale left and yes the spars last between 40-60 sec so if the ring procs early on you might get to use it twice, making it a 3400 heal, which it usually does.
    With full gear swapping, bracing, morale pot and heal ring the Reaver has to do about 25k dmg to win which is just not going to happen. That's why I pretty much never use ring and use bracing only against like 1 or 2 Reavers that are just beastly.
    Let's say they need 25k, in that case they do about (25000-7000)/60= 300 DPS. Don't you think that's kinda low? But still...
    25000-3400-2400-4000= 15200 unbuffed morale. Are those accurate numbers you used? Anyway, I wish I could do it like that.

    About utility LI's: I'd say you can put Hamstring + WA + CD's + max morale legs/relics on it, and just use those during the first 1500 morale, because you can just build Fervour and put on Hamstring those first seconds. Sundering + Ravage + GP + Lacceration + Thrash is around 1500 damage, I think? So then you can go on to normal LI's.
    Feailuve - Aeviternus - Vesanus
    Brandywine

    The important thing about life is the struggle, not the triumph... Said no winner ever.

  4. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Giliodor View Post
    Let's say they need 25k, in that case they do about (25000-7000)/60= 300 DPS. Don't you think that's kinda low? But still...
    25000-3400-2400-4000= 15200 unbuffed morale. Are those accurate numbers you used? Anyway, I wish I could do it like that.

    About utility LI's: I'd say you can put Hamstring + WA + CD's + max morale legs/relics on it, and just use those during the first 1500 morale, because you can just build Fervour and put on Hamstring those first seconds. Sundering + Ravage + GP + Lacceration + Thrash is around 1500 damage, I think? So then you can go on to normal LI's.
    kuni(shintagh or w/e the #### his forum name is), has about 15k unbuffed in 1v1's when i fought him, with R10 BFP helping him ofc :P. I generally do around 25-30k damage to him in 1v1's, although it tends to be under 20k if he crits/devs ferocious..since i tend to lose since ferocious is OP as ####.

    the way i beat impale is, when fighting reavers with good movement, its all about your slow landing, and timing stuns/pots. since all reavers start stacking bleeds asap, i tend to hedge very early, so they cant disarm/impale, since i lose close to 800 morale without my main hand weapon.

    when i see 4 bleeds stack, i tend to bracing(to cure thrash/dust)/BF/horn/WA/hamstring and kite off at least one more bleed. im fine with getting hit by a 2 bleed impale, since it rarely drops me below 50%. other than that, its brutal+clobber spam and win. i do sprint, for the 2nd impale if the fight lasts that long, and it tends to because i rarely get about 10% crits in 1v1's lol. (granted i only have like..7.5k crit rating in my solo/1v1 build).

    but yea its all about avoiding the 4 bleed impales, good movement, and praying you dont lag. lag part might not pertain to you though :P
    lugbur R11 reaver /// guthfred R9 cappy /// beregon R8 hunter /// guthblade R9 champ + too many other things

  5. #30
    Very interesting stuff, i should start paying more attention to champs fighting reavers when I stand around not getting any fights at 1v1 circles. I always assumed champs as a melee, primary dps class would hold a pretty solid advantage in dps on a reaver over a spear warden, since they typically hold this advantage in PvE land. I have good gear, but it is assuredly not perfect (not that I really care at this point) and I'd say a typical reaver fight for me (with a r10+ reaver) is around 30s, with a long one lasting almost 40s, if they used disarm at a point where I need to semi-kite it off (the only part of a reaver fight i'll legitimately kite, and this happens 1/2 the time at most). Also note I don't use any reflects, where using 1 is good for about 2k dmg in 30s, and a second doubles that figure, and actually using wall of steel would increase my dps a small bit too.

    I'm a bit blown away at how much lower champ dps is on a reaver than i had assumed it was. Sorry for the derailment, and thanks for sharing.
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  6. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    Very interesting stuff, i should start paying more attention to champs fighting reavers when I stand around not getting any fights at 1v1 circles. I always assumed champs as a melee, primary dps class would hold a pretty solid advantage in dps on a reaver over a spear warden, since they typically hold this advantage in PvE land. I have good gear, but it is assuredly not perfect (not that I really care at this point) and I'd say a typical reaver fight for me (with a r10+ reaver) is around 30s, with a long one lasting almost 40s, if they used disarm at a point where I need to semi-kite it off (the only part of a reaver fight i'll legitimately kite, and this happens 1/2 the time at most). Also note I don't use any reflects, where using 1 is good for about 2k dmg in 30s, and a second doubles that figure, and actually using wall of steel would increase my dps a small bit too.

    I'm a bit blown away at how much lower champ dps is on a reaver than i had assumed it was. Sorry for the derailment, and thanks for sharing.
    warden bleeds, are what makes the difference. ive had warden bleeds kill me 20 seconds after ive killed the warden...they also hit vrey hard, and are basically guarenteed damage, even if you kite.
    lugbur R11 reaver /// guthfred R9 cappy /// beregon R8 hunter /// guthblade R9 champ + too many other things

  7. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by lugbur View Post
    warden bleeds, are what makes the difference. ive had warden bleeds kill me 20 seconds after ive killed the warden...they also hit vrey hard, and are basically guarenteed damage, even if you kite.
    its about a 20% dps advantage to bleed over upfront damage skills for us (in a melee 1v1, pve or at range this is VERY different, with range being much less reliant on bleeds, and pve melee being much MORE reliant), so if i threw in a double stack of reflects, i think that 30s figure is still doable without bleeds. Hunter's winning vs reavers is definitely much faster than 30s too.

    None of this is to diminish champs, as quite obviously its one of the most potent and successful classes out there since RoI, I'm just caught off guard by where their dps is in this scenario.
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  8. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    its about a 20% dps advantage to bleed over upfront damage skills for us (in a melee 1v1, pve or at range this is VERY different, with range being much less reliant on bleeds, and pve melee being much MORE reliant), so if i threw in a double stack of reflects, i think that 30s figure is still doable without bleeds. Hunter's winning vs reavers is definitely much faster than 30s too.

    None of this is to diminish champs, as quite obviously its one of the most potent and successful classes out there since RoI, I'm just caught off guard by where their dps is in this scenario.
    i get what you are saying. it also depends on the build. if i want, i can burst reavers down in 20 seconds, but it requires a lot of crits, and its a very offensive build, so im very vulnerable to impale. i dont have fun like that, so i try to build so i dont have to rely on crits, which i rarely get even with 18% crit chance.

    i cant speak for others ofc. but my fights against reavers last around 45 seconds. and in that time, eithre i die or they die(ifthey pop wrath/ato the fight obviously goes on longer). idk what the dps is...but its obviously longer than a 30 second fight
    lugbur R11 reaver /// guthfred R9 cappy /// beregon R8 hunter /// guthblade R9 champ + too many other things

  9. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Giliodor View Post
    Let's say they need 25k, in that case they do about (25000-7000)/60= 300 DPS. Don't you think that's kinda low? But still...
    25000-3400-2400-4000= 15200 unbuffed morale. Are those accurate numbers you used? Anyway, I wish I could do it like that.
    Ye I have just under 16k unbuffed, if I use vit food, token I'm about 17k. As for the 300 dps, that's what Reavers usually get on me unless they crit/dev Impale/DS back to back. Considering the effective morale pools of gear swapping Champ and Reaver is about the same(I have to do between 25 and 30k dmg to win as well) and a Champ does 400-500+ depending on crits the Reaver will die around 40 seconds. Then there's always the MS burst to consider. It's very amusing taking Reavers down from 12k to 0 in 2-3 seconds.

    My basic strat is to put the Reaver on back foot as early as possible. If I get like 2-3 brutal crits upfront the Reaver has to pop wrath and if he pops wrath before his first Impale I can sprint up and make it a weak Impale compared to a 3k 4 bleed Impale. From that point on wards its just slaughter, the Reaver barely touches 200 dps. Of course the opposite can also happen. I fought a Reaver who was all about burst. He'd get his 4 bleed Impale off at the end of the charge instead of doing the usual sunder, upperhand, dust first. It was quite clever as I was immediately put on the back foot and not to mention he could get 3 Impales off in a 50 sec fight. By the time I get into a dps rhythm he'd have another Impale ready for me and often I was forced to sprint early. That's why I love fighting Reavers, every match is different.

  10. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Shintagh View Post
    Ye I have just under 16k unbuffed, if I use vit food, token I'm about 17k. As for the 300 dps, that's what Reavers usually get on me unless they crit/dev Impale/DS back to back. Considering the effective morale pools of gear swapping Champ and Reaver is about the same(I have to do between 25 and 30k dmg to win as well) and a Champ does 400-500+ depending on crits the Reaver will die around 40 seconds. Then there's always the MS burst to consider. It's very amusing taking Reavers down from 12k to 0 in 2-3 seconds.
    Sounds nice.

    My basic strat is to put the Reaver on back foot as early as possible. If I get like 2-3 brutal crits upfront the Reaver has to pop wrath and if he pops wrath before his first Impale I can sprint up and make it a weak Impale compared to a 3k 4 bleed Impale. From that point on wards its just slaughter, the Reaver barely touches 200 dps. Of course the opposite can also happen. I fought a Reaver who was all about burst. He'd get his 4 bleed Impale off at the end of the charge instead of doing the usual sunder, upperhand, dust first. It was quite clever as I was immediately put on the back foot and not to mention he could get 3 Impales off in a 50 sec fight. By the time I get into a dps rhythm he'd have another Impale ready for me and often I was forced to sprint early. That's why I love fighting Reavers, every match is different.
    I guess I'll go and try the whole gear swapping/PvE Grind with HD, because I really can't be bothered with doing it anymore... But till HD, I guess I'm just gonna try get some decent rotation down. I'm trying the 150 might 38 vit 1920 critD ring now, I didn't notice a significant difference between that and the heal proc in normal solo fights, but I haven't fought a reaver with it yet. I'll see how it goes...
    Feailuve - Aeviternus - Vesanus
    Brandywine

    The important thing about life is the struggle, not the triumph... Said no winner ever.

  11. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Giliodor View Post
    I guess I'll go and try the whole gear swapping/PvE Grind with HD, because I really can't be bothered with doing it anymore... But till HD, I guess I'm just gonna try get some decent rotation down. I'm trying the 150 might 38 vit 1920 critD ring now, I didn't notice a significant difference between that and the heal proc in normal solo fights, but I haven't fought a reaver with it yet. I'll see how it goes...
    You could just wait for the heal to proc and then switch it out to the CritD ring, more morale would be more beneficial with your current stats but there isn't a lot to gain if you aren't going to put the effort in until HD.

    I can usually fit a Brutal/Clobber and a Ferocious/Hedge in before the first Impale hits which can sway the fight greatly depending on crit luck, I also try to use Bracing just after the first Impale which can nulify the hit unless I am having bad crit luck and am hit by DS.

  12. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Zelol View Post
    You could just wait for the heal to proc and then switch it out to the CritD ring, more morale would be more beneficial with your current stats but there isn't a lot to gain if you aren't going to put the effort in until HD.
    Yes I know, but since the beta is starting soon, I have the feeling it's just not worth the hours of grinding, just to make things worthless when HD launches. I actually tried the swapping between my CritD proc and CritD ring from School/Lib: swapping when I would be having the CritD proc. Point is that I'd forget to swap back once the Proc had expired.

    I can usually fit a Brutal/Clobber and a Ferocious/Hedge in before the first Impale hits which can sway the fight greatly depending on crit luck, I also try to use Bracing just after the first Impale which can nulify the hit unless I am having bad crit luck and am hit by DS.
    What I actually understand from all your (everyone to post here) stories is this: if you don't gear swap, you're screwed if Impale crits. Is this correct?
    Feailuve - Aeviternus - Vesanus
    Brandywine

    The important thing about life is the struggle, not the triumph... Said no winner ever.

  13. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Giliodor View Post
    Yes I know, but since the beta is starting soon, I have the feeling it's just not worth the hours of grinding, just to make things worthless when HD launches. I actually tried the swapping between my CritD proc and CritD ring from School/Lib: swapping when I would be having the CritD proc. Point is that I'd forget to swap back once the Proc had expired.



    What I actually understand from all your (everyone to post here) stories is this: if you don't gear swap, you're screwed if Impale crits. Is this correct?
    not at all. ive beat many reavers even with they crit impale. its all about avoiding the 4 bleed impales, knowing when to kite, and movement. GOOD reavers, you'll obviously struggle against, as pretty much everyone does. but i havent found a reaver that i cant beat yet.
    lugbur R11 reaver /// guthfred R9 cappy /// beregon R8 hunter /// guthblade R9 champ + too many other things

  14. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by lugbur View Post
    not at all. ive beat many reavers even with they crit impale. its all about avoiding the 4 bleed impales, knowing when to kite, and movement. GOOD reavers, you'll obviously struggle against, as pretty much everyone does. but i havent found a reaver that i cant beat yet.
    I know when to kite, too, but I always get QQ about how lame I am... Anyway, I merely meant people with my gear can't do anything when Impale crits ^^
    Feailuve - Aeviternus - Vesanus
    Brandywine

    The important thing about life is the struggle, not the triumph... Said no winner ever.

  15. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Giliodor View Post
    Suuure...
    Well, heal proc ring is like a morale pot every waht 30 or 40s? IDK
    Also get the 2k crit d bow, jeez :P with such low crit d it'd do you lots of good ^^


    Crickhollow l Thorfinn || r14 champ, r12 burglar- Crickhollow || r11//r9 warg Crick//Elendilmir || + other stuff

  16. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Nifroth View Post
    Well, heal proc ring is like a morale pot every waht 30 or 40s? IDK
    Also get the 2k crit d bow, jeez :P with such low crit d it'd do you lots of good ^^
    Bu that'd make me lose another 800 crit rating...
    Feailuve - Aeviternus - Vesanus
    Brandywine

    The important thing about life is the struggle, not the triumph... Said no winner ever.

  17. #42
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    Shouldn't matter too much if a reaver keeps hitting you with impale, champs should be wiping the floor with them no problem. Unless you actually look for a fair fight and gimp yourself.

  18. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by CreepHiveMind View Post
    Shouldn't matter too much if a reaver keeps hitting you with impale, champs should be wiping the floor with them no problem. Unless you actually look for a fair fight and gimp yourself.
    Note where I say

    Quote Originally Posted by Giliodor View Post
    but still I don't use any CDs, and I won't use a bubble or something to absorb Impale. I just want a fair solution... Please
    Feailuve - Aeviternus - Vesanus
    Brandywine

    The important thing about life is the struggle, not the triumph... Said no winner ever.

  19. #44
    The Wildermore CritD bow is a nice piece of gear which doesn't require much grinding at all, the loss of 800 crit/mastery isn't that big for the bump to survivability that you will also recieve.

    I think one of your biggest barriers right now is the relatively low Morale/CritD which makes it easier for reavers to get you below 50% with a crit Impale or very close to 50% with a non crit. Bracing immediately after the first impale will help as said before but with a lower morale pool you may still be in trouble unless you have the DPS.

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelol View Post
    Bracing immediately after the first impale will help as said before but with a lower morale pool you may still be in trouble unless you have the DPS.
    I have a question about the use of bracing attack : assuming that the champ is wearing 4 bracing bonus why should he use bracing after the Impale and not before ? i mean i always try to use bracing when in have 2-3 debuff on to maximize the 50% chance to get them removed and lower or delay Impale skill ( reaver have 2 choice after the debuff are gone : impale with no debuff or debuff again and impale )
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  21. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Anolus View Post
    I have a question about the use of bracing attack : assuming that the champ is wearing 4 bracing bonus why should he use bracing after the Impale and not before ? i mean i always try to use bracing when in have 2-3 debuff on to maximize the 50% chance to get them removed and lower or delay Impale skill ( reaver have 2 choice after the debuff are gone : impale with no debuff or debuff again and impale )
    I would say at higher morale values (14k for example) you can use bracing whenever you want to without much penalty as you are unlikely to drop below the 50% mark unless you haven't got many defensive stats and take a big crit.

    Bracing after the 1st Impale helps a lot for people with lower morale (the 11k for example) is the total heal accounts for more % due to the lower morale, I don't really pay attention to the wounds that I have applied to me but every so often I get some bad luck and end up with 50-60% total hits.

  22. #47
    Was bored so made a reaver spar video since that's what most champs struggle against. Not my best spars since Fraps make my pc lag and I was in a gimped glass canon build. Gives a good idea of the dps requirement and when to bracing and hedge as well as remove wounds etc etc.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDuOoUluhg0

    Enjoy.

  23. #48
    Oh thanks, gonna watch that. *switches to PC* can't watch on iPad
    Edit: watched it now. Your damage output is about the same as mine. I can't understand some of the crits, though. Difference is that your morale is about 2k higher...
    Last edited by Giliodor; Oct 08 2013 at 01:55 PM.
    Feailuve - Aeviternus - Vesanus
    Brandywine

    The important thing about life is the struggle, not the triumph... Said no winner ever.

  24. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Giliodor View Post
    Oh thanks, gonna watch that. *switches to PC* can't watch on iPad
    Edit: watched it now. Your damage output is about the same as mine. I can't understand some of the crits, though. Difference is that your morale is about 2k higher...
    It's not just about the morale. I have 8k crit d in that build which counters the infamous impale spike damage. As for the crits, I suppose you mean the 5k+ merciful crits? Yea when one of those happens there's not much that can be said except gg.

    ~13k morale is the sweet spot if you want to go for a burst fight. If you parse between 600-700 with 13k morale and 7k finesse there is almost no chance the Reaver can kill you before you kill him. I've done it with lower morale but I've lost to impale/ds devs so 11k morale is not very reliable.

  25. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Shintagh View Post
    It's not just about the morale. I have 8k crit d in that build which counters the infamous impale spike damage. As for the crits, I suppose you mean the 5k+ merciful crits? Yea when one of those happens there's not much that can be said except gg.
    8k critD is... Sick xD So you have a golden pocket, 2x School rings, 2x LI Scrolls, Golden Necklace? As for the crits, yeah those. Mine never crit so high...

    ~13k morale is the sweet spot if you want to go for a burst fight. If you parse between 600-700 with 13k morale and 7k finesse there is almost no chance the Reaver can kill you before you kill him. I've done it with lower morale but I've lost to impale/ds devs so 11k morale is not very reliable.
    Yeah I went to our 1v1 area and didn't realise I was having Cappy buffs and Hope. So I was on 13k morale and 10k crit. Made everything so much easier...
    Feailuve - Aeviternus - Vesanus
    Brandywine

    The important thing about life is the struggle, not the triumph... Said no winner ever.

 

 
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