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  1. #1

    Reavers/Impale...

    Yeah... The title. I really, really, can't handle it. Today, I got hit with Impale for 4,5k. 4 times in total, twice by a R12 Reaver and twice by a R11 Reaver. What can I possibly do against something that bypasses nearly all my mits? 55% both common and tactical. Even with Bracing to remove Thrash, it would still hit for 3,7k. My total morale is 11k. My gear is far from the best of the best, but still I don't use any CDs, and I won't use a bubble or something to absorb Impale. I just want a fair solution... Please
    Feailuve - Akabath
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  2. #2
    It's hard to hit a moving target.

    Smart Reavers use Impale after 2 bleeds to start the 20-second cool-down timer sooner. A lot of Reavers wait to apply 3 or 4 bleeds for higher DamagePerHit rather than DamagePerSecond.

    Your best defense is to delay their Impale. Kite them. Twitch mouse turn. You want to prevent rather than cure. Use Bracing Attack to keep your morale topped off; use movement to delay their Impale.

    Max out targeted melee skills range legacy. Think of your targeting bubble as a particle in space that collides, for a moment, with their targeting bubble to produce a violent reaction. If you turn away fast enough you can unleash a Ferocious/Brutal + Clobber/Merc before they can even auto-attack (this is simple, but difficult). It's a race to 50% morale (Merciful Strike > Devastating Strike).

    Remember they have Resilience (1-minute cool-down) and a CC brand to remove your Hamstring.

    Outmaneuver/delay their Impale.
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  3. #3
    At this point I don't think bracing is particularly necessary against reavers if they're not using wrath/ato. Without bracing, I tend to lose slightly more than I win against reavers but that's ok. It mostly comes down to crits and miss/bpe. I feel like the solution is just to hit hard enough to kill them before they can get too many impales off. With nice gear, it shouldn't be outside the realm of possibility to regularly parse 600-700 dps (maybe even higher) against a reaver. You can always stance dance into glory/kite for more bracing and what not but it's probably overkill. As a reference point, besides the rohan rings, my jewelry is mostly teal/purple crafted/barter stuff.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by CodeofMisconduct View Post
    It's hard to hit a moving target.
    I've had some practice on my warden, I find it rather easy now.

    Smart Reavers use Impale after 2 bleeds to start the 20-second cool-down timer sooner. A lot of Reavers wait to apply 3 or 4 bleeds for higher DamagePerHit rather than DamagePerSecond.

    Your best defense is to delay their Impale. Kite them. Twitch mouse turn. You want to prevent rather than cure. Use Bracing Attack to keep your morale topped off; use movement to delay their Impale.
    Well I think I could try this, thank you.

    Max out targeted melee skills range legacy.
    Got that.

    Think of your targeting bubble as a particle in space that collides, for a moment, with their targeting bubble to produce a violent reaction. If you turn away fast enough you can unleash a Ferocious/Brutal + Clobber/Merc before they can even auto-attack (this is simple, but difficult). It's a race to 50% morale (Merciful Strike > Devastating Strike).
    I've tried this, but the Imaple will come on some point. And when it does, I'm pretty much on 50%

    Outmaneuver/delay their Impale.
    So: there is no actual way to stand and take an Impale, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddyfence View Post
    At this point I don't think bracing is particularly necessary against reavers if they're not using wrath/ato. Without bracing, I tend to lose slightly more than I win against reavers but that's ok. It mostly comes down to crits and miss/bpe.
    Then you mean yours or theirs? Assuming it's them (no bpe in Fervour), I'm on 17% Finesse, but my attacks get bpe'ed/missed so often it isn't even funny... Against every class, that is.

    I feel like the solution is just to hit hard enough to kill them before they can get too many impales off. With nice gear, it shouldn't be outside the realm of possibility to regularly parse 600-700 dps (maybe even higher) against a reaver. You can always stance dance into glory/kite for more bracing and what not but it's probably overkill. As a reference point, besides the rohan rings, my jewelry is mostly teal/purple crafted/barter stuff.
    So do I feel, but due to lag and gear, my DPS can't outmatch their in th morale race (22k vs 11k). I have crafted bracelets, Rohan rings, but not the good ones (never got 3 Wyrmfires, and when I did I was out of tokens), and BoD earrings (150 might 211 morale 768 crit rating). Crit is 9k and PM is exceptionally low on 18k.
    Feailuve - Akabath
    [EN]Evernight

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giliodor View Post
    Yeah... The title. I really, really, can't handle it. Today, I got hit with Impale for 4,5k. 4 times in total, twice by a R12 Reaver and twice by a R11 Reaver. What can I possibly do against something that bypasses nearly all my mits? 55% both common and tactical. Even with Bracing to remove Thrash, it would still hit for 3,7k. My total morale is 11k. My gear is far from the best of the best, but still I don't use any CDs, and I won't use a bubble or something to absorb Impale. I just want a fair solution... Please
    I cannot believe what i am reading :-)

    Its ok to 1vs1 as you are doing but to complain about the use of a skill due to you not using your own skills to either counter this or for not having maxed legacies (if thats the case) is crazy. Champs who blow CDs, and not even them all are damn near gods at times. Relentless can hit for high numbers, your WA is a damn nice hitter and on a very short CD, even AA from champs are silly. Your only thinking about reavers who kill you? what about the unfotunate classes who have #### DPS like WLs and Defilers? What solution do we get for a champs skills being far to powerful, and thats coming from a WL who wont heal in 1vs1, but thats my choice :-D
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  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Giliodor View Post
    I've had some practice on my warden, I find it rather easy now.



    Well I think I could try this, thank you.



    Got that.



    I've tried this, but the Imaple will come on some point. And when it does, I'm pretty much on 50%



    So: there is no actual way to stand and take an Impale, right?



    Then you mean yours or theirs? Assuming it's them (no bpe in Fervour), I'm on 17% Finesse, but my attacks get bpe'ed/missed so often it isn't even funny... Against every class, that is.



    So do I feel, but due to lag and gear, my DPS can't outmatch their in th morale race (22k vs 11k). I have crafted bracelets, Rohan rings, but not the good ones (never got 3 Wyrmfires, and when I did I was out of tokens), and BoD earrings (150 might 211 morale 768 crit rating). Crit is 9k and PM is exceptionally low on 18k.
    Are you sure you aren't confusing a bpe with a miss from dust? Any good reaver should be applying Upper Hand before Dust to prevent removal. If you're struggling against a reaver who is doing this, try to use movement to slow the 15s you have this debuff up with longer looping movements and quick direction changes for seperation so both of you get fewer attacks off, then you can pot Dust after 15s, rather than trying to straight dps through the first 15s of dust/upper hand. 20% miss rate can be meaningless, or it can absolutely destroy your dps, depending on the RNG, if you can't remove it, its best to slow the fight down till you can.

    How is your mastery that low, assuming those are the lvl 85 crafted jewelry pieces?

    I'm sure Kidefence is also referring to no bracing while using morale gearswap jewelry (at least against good reavers), so if you don't have 4-6k of 'free' morale to swap out, I wouldn't worry about no bracing.

    When I toy around with my reaver, the thing that strikes me most about the class compared to other classes I'm more used to (besides Guardian) is how SLOW attack animations are. What I've been working on both with warden and warg against classes with relatively slower attack speeds, is movement such that I get multiple attacks off, but my opponent only gets a single one. This is VERY hard (for me) and I'm just scratching the surface of how to do it effectively, plus you have to pay a ton of attention to your opponents animations, rather than simply their position.

    As Illy mentions, movement is incredibly important for any class, but the faster your attack speed, the more so. Being able to mouse-turn and stay on a target is something many lotro players never grasp, that you have is good, but this is one aspect of the game that I've NEVER Seen someone truly master, unlike rotations, gearswaps, and class specific strats. E has a few players who are close though (Ekklektik and Whiskeyinmytummy when is isn't drunk come to mind).
    Last edited by spelunker; Aug 29 2013 at 02:11 AM.
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  7. #7
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    Reaver/Champ is pretty well balanced when the champ doesn't use bubbles/dire need, and in all honesty, a R11/R12 reaver should beat you if

    Quote Originally Posted by Giliodor View Post
    My gear is far from the best of the best,
    Freep side is very gear-centric, so to actually have a chance without CDs against high ranks (Reavers=R9, Impale changes everything) I think you should go gear hunting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Giliodor View Post
    I just want a fair solution... Please
    The problem is that if you could beat the high rank Reavers, those with really good gear would completely demolish even the R15 ones, and that wouldn't be very fair to the creeps...
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  8. #8
    How much Crit Defense do you have? 4.5k sounds pretty meaty for only 4 hits, I usually take ~7k from 8/9 from 100% crits when sparring toe to toe. A simple increase of Morale and CD would help a lot, the real DPS race kicks in after the first Impale as most of the ranked reavers on Snowbourn will kite with Resilience until they can use it again.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by MessyR View Post
    Its ok to 1vs1 as you are doing but to complain about the use of a skill due to you not using your own skills to either counter this or for not having maxed legacies (if thats the case) is crazy. Champs who blow CDs, and not even them all are damn near gods at times. Relentless can hit for high numbers, your WA is a damn nice hitter and on a very short CD, even AA from champs are silly. Your only thinking about reavers who kill you? what about the unfotunate classes who have #### DPS like WLs and Defilers? What solution do we get for a champs skills being far to powerful, and thats coming from a WL who wont heal in 1vs1, but thats my choice :-D
    Yes, sorry about me using bracing, I didn't notice you didn't heal till we finished our sparring. I won't next time. I have all maxed legacies, on a First Age 1h and 2h. No Rune, Rend Pulses is only at 8! But it's not really relevant to the question.

    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    Are you sure you aren't confusing a bpe with a miss from dust? Any good reaver should be applying Upper Hand before Dust to prevent removal. If you're struggling against a reaver who is doing this, try to use movement to slow the 15s you have this debuff up with longer looping movements and quick direction changes for seperation so both of you get fewer attacks off, then you can pot Dust after 15s, rather than trying to straight dps through the first 15s of dust/upper hand. 20% miss rate can be meaningless, or it can absolutely destroy your dps, depending on the RNG, if you can't remove it, its best to slow the fight down till you can.
    It's BPE, I remove the Dust with Bracing, nearly always works.

    How is your mastery that low, assuming those are the lvl 85 crafted jewelry pieces?
    http://prntscr.com/1o4023

    I'm sure Kidefence is also referring to no bracing while using morale gearswap jewelry (at least against good reavers), so if you don't have 4-6k of 'free' morale to swap out, I wouldn't worry about no bracing.
    I don't have the appropriate gear to swap, plus I'm lagging too badly for it, atm.

    When I toy around with my reaver, the thing that strikes me most about the class compared to other classes I'm more used to (besides Guardian) is how SLOW attack animations are. What I've been working on both with warden and warg against classes with relatively slower attack speeds, is movement such that I get multiple attacks off, but my opponent only gets a single one. This is VERY hard (for me) and I'm just scratching the surface of how to do it effectively, plus you have to pay a ton of attention to your opponents animations, rather than simply their position.
    I don't have any problems with it, after practicing it a lot at GTA on my warden.

    As Illy mentions, movement is incredibly important for any class, but the faster your attack speed, the more so. Being able to mouse-turn and stay on a target is something many lotro players never grasp, that you have is good, but this is one aspect of the game that I've NEVER Seen someone truly master, unlike rotations, gearswaps, and class specific strats. E has a few players who are close though (Ekklektik and Whiskeyinmytummy when is isn't drunk come to mind).
    I can say I always face my opponent, and when I don't, it's against a warg because I want him to do positional damage so our spar ends in a draw, rather than a victory for me.

    Quote Originally Posted by vr00mie View Post
    Freep side is very gear-centric, so to actually have a chance without CDs against high ranks (Reavers=R9, Impale changes everything) I think you should go gear hunting.
    I think I shouldn't: a fight shouldn't be dependant on gear.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zelol View Post
    How much Crit Defense do you have? 4.5k sounds pretty meaty for only 4 hits, I usually take ~7k from 8/9 from 100% crits when sparring toe to toe. A simple increase of Morale and CD would help a lot, the real DPS race kicks in after the first Impale as most of the ranked reavers on Snowbourn will kite with Resilience until they can use it again.
    I'm only on 3,5k with the proc. Yes, it's low. I mentioned my gear, didn't I?
    I linked it in OOC, it was 2k initial hit + 863 * 3.
    Feailuve - Akabath
    [EN]Evernight

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Giliodor View Post
    I can say I always face my opponent, and when I don't, it's against a warg because I want him to do positional damage so our spar ends in a draw, rather than a victory for me.
    Its a lot more than always facing your target, though.
    I think I shouldn't: a fight shouldn't be dependant on gear.
    You're playing on the wrong side, then.
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  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    Its a lot more than always facing your target, though.
    I mean turning/facing it whenever I want. I'm sure you too can. It's just about moving your mouse fast enough, lol

    You're playing on the wrong side, then.
    Did you look at the SS I posted? It's not that bad...
    Feailuve - Akabath
    [EN]Evernight

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Giliodor View Post
    I mean turning/facing it whenever I want. I'm sure you too can. It's just about moving your mouse fast enough, lol
    Yes, and i did watch those vids you posted of your warden. Your movement is better than most, but as with everyone I've ever seen, it can be improved for better pvmp results. I'm suggesting rather than movement where you are basically always facing your opponent, allowing for both players to get their rotations off largely unimpeded, or roughly equally impeded, you work out a movement pattern where you take advantage of your faster attack speeds and squeeze out 2 (or more) attacks in the time the reaver gets one, before moving out of range. You're looking for a way to beat good reavers without cooldowns, and with modest gear while not swapping, its not going to be an easy solution. I don't know the ins and outs of a champ in pvmp, but if your gear isn't better than average, and they are using skills in the right order, you have to be doing something BETTER than them.



    Did you look at the SS I posted? It's not that bad...
    I didn't say it wasn't. I don't know what the champ armour sets give for stats, nor do i know what pieces you are using of what (i haven't played my champ at 85), but from your SS they appear to be surprisingly defensively oriented. Either way, if you don't think gear should play a factor in your ability to win a fight, you're playing on the wrong side. Like it or not, gear is a big part of freeping.
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  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    Yes, and i did watch those vids you posted of your warden. Your movement is better than most, but as with everyone I've ever seen, it can be improved for better pvmp results. I'm suggesting rather than movement where you are basically always facing your opponent, allowing for both players to get their rotations off largely unimpeded, or roughly equally impeded, you work out a movement pattern where you take advantage of your faster attack speeds and squeeze out 2 (or more) attacks in the time the reaver gets one, before moving out of range. You're looking for a way to beat good reavers without cooldowns, and with modest gear while not swapping, its not going to be an easy solution. I don't know the ins and outs of a champ in pvmp, but if your gear isn't better than average, and they are using skills in the right order, you have to be doing something BETTER than them.
    Let's see, I just need a friend to practice with, I guess.

    I didn't say it wasn't. I don't know what the champ armour sets give for stats, nor do i know what pieces you are using of what (i haven't played my champ at 85), but from your SS they appear to be surprisingly defensively oriented. Either way, if you don't think gear should play a factor in your ability to win a fight, you're playing on the wrong side. Like it or not, gear is a big part of freeping.
    I'm using 4 Resilient (because it's a must have) and 2 Unyielding Rage, because I didn't get any other pieces yet. I'm getting 4 UR and 2 Resilient asap. It's max crit rating orientated, though. But I fail to see how I can build for more offense. Everything but my necklace and pocket is pretty much offensive, no? I don't like the gearing part, but if I have to, I will, with HD
    Feailuve - Akabath
    [EN]Evernight

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Giliodor View Post
    Then you mean yours or theirs? Assuming it's them (no bpe in Fervour), I'm on 17% Finesse, but my attacks get bpe'ed/missed so often it isn't even funny... Against every class, that is.
    Primarily champ miss chance and crits for both sides. Crits on big dps skills can decide fights completely.



    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    I'm sure Kidefence is also referring to no bracing while using morale gearswap jewelry (at least against good reavers), so if you don't have 4-6k of 'free' morale to swap out, I wouldn't worry about no bracing.
    With the new jewelry (if all that gold jewelry is still considered new), swapping probably isn't necessary to beat a reaver without bracing. The gold stuff gives both good dps stats and morale stats which makes swapping to higher dps jewelry or higher morale jewelry (which doesn't even always exist) pointless. E.g. one of my "dps" bracelets is a purple one with, if I remember correctly, 68 might/68 vit/700 something crit. Seeing that there's gold bracelets with stats like 160 might/400morale/800 crit, simply using the best gear is both easier and objectively stronger than swapping teal/purple stuff. Also, all the extra empty morale simply isn't as useful when fighting a reaver as other classes, particularly wargs. The big selling point for swapping against a reaver had been to lower a champ's total morale pool to delay the dev strike debuff, but that only matters if you're using bracing for heals. Without bracing, it doesn't matter if you take a dev strike at 7k morale or 5k morale since the fight isn't going to last another 30 seconds at that point and there are no heals to debuff.

    Again, I personally would advise against kiting or dragging out a fight with a reaver after their first impale unless you plan on either stance dancing for bracing or kiting for extremely long periods of time. Sure you might gain an attack or two occasionally but you also have to think about what the reaver is trying to do. A reaver would be perfectly happy if every 20 seconds they were in melee range for just long enough to do 4 dots and an impale and out of range for the rest of the time. Unless you're kiting for like 10+ seconds at a time to wait dots out you're basically trying to compare the damage from brutal/fero/remorseless to impale and that's generally a losing proposition considering the morale pools.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddyfence View Post
    Primarily champ miss chance and crits for both sides. Crits on big dps skills can decide fights completely.
    Only, my Remorseless crits for about 2,5k, and the highest Merciful I had was... 4,4k? On a warg, not even a reaver. Full audacity and everything, though.

    With the new jewelry (if all that gold jewelry is still considered new), swapping probably isn't necessary to beat a reaver without bracing. The gold stuff gives both good dps stats and morale stats which makes swapping to higher dps jewelry or higher morale jewelry (which doesn't even always exist) pointless. E.g. one of my "dps" bracelets is a purple one with, if I remember correctly, 68 might/68 vit/700 something crit. Seeing that there's gold bracelets with stats like 160 might/400morale/800 crit, simply using the best gear is both easier and objectively stronger than swapping teal/purple stuff. Also, all the extra empty morale simply isn't as useful when fighting a reaver as other classes, particularly wargs. The big selling point for swapping against a reaver had been to lower a champ's total morale pool to delay the dev strike debuff, but that only matters if you're using bracing for heals. Without bracing, it doesn't matter if you take a dev strike at 7k morale or 5k morale since the fight isn't going to last another 30 seconds at that point and there are no heals to debuff.
    I don't have any gold jewellery, I only have some more offensive items I use for PvE. But in total they'll drop my morale by... 2k, or so. Not worth it, I gain only 5k PM and 800 crit rating.

    Again, I personally would advise against kiting or dragging out a fight with a reaver after their first impale unless you plan on either stance dancing for bracing or kiting for extremely long periods of time. Sure you might gain an attack or two occasionally but you also have to think about what the reaver is trying to do. A reaver would be perfectly happy if every 20 seconds they were in melee range for just long enough to do 4 dots and an impale and out of range for the rest of the time. Unless you're kiting for like 10+ seconds at a time to wait dots out you're basically trying to compare the damage from brutal/fero/remorseless to impale and that's generally a losing proposition considering the morale pools.
    Indeed kiting is not the solution, but getting off skills when the skill still says you're out of range might be. For equal damage I should be hitting for 9k with Ferocious... Not gonna happen, no.
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  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddyfence View Post
    jewelry is still considered new), swapping probably isn't necessary to beat a reaver without bracing. The gold stuff gives both good dps stats and morale stats which makes swapping to higher dps jewelry or higher morale jewelry (which doesn't even always exist) pointless. E.g. one of my "dps" bracelets is a purple one with, if I remember correctly, 68 might/68 vit/700 something crit. Seeing that there's gold bracelets with stats like 160 might/400morale/800 crit, simply using the best gear is both easier and objectively stronger than swapping teal/purple stuff. Also, all the extra empty morale simply isn't as useful when fighting a reaver as other classes, particularly wargs. The big selling point for swapping against a reaver had been to lower a champ's total morale pool to delay the dev strike debuff, but that only matters if you're using bracing for heals. Without bracing, it doesn't matter if you take a dev strike at 7k morale or 5k morale since the fight isn't going to last another 30 seconds at that point and there are no heals to debuff.

    Again, I personally would advise against kiting or dragging out a fight with a reaver after their first impale unless you plan on either stance dancing for bracing or kiting for extremely long periods of time. Sure you might gain an attack or two occasionally but you also have to think about what the reaver is trying to do. A reaver would be perfectly happy if every 20 seconds they were in melee range for just long enough to do 4 dots and an impale and out of range for the rest of the time. Unless you're kiting for like 10+ seconds at a time to wait dots out you're basically trying to compare the damage from brutal/fero/remorseless to impale and that's generally a losing proposition considering the morale pools.
    I'd consider delaying a dev strike good under any circumstance, since its their second hardest hitting skill. Aside from that, there is more raw morale available via jewelry than the golds you mention. Even if your dps until you take the first impale is complete trash, its 'free' dps since you are swapping out enough morale that the first impale is completely negated, so even if you do 2k dps while they've done 4k, thats still 2k more than your 'actual' starting point. You would not be at 17k morale in BiS gold items, and would more likely be around 12-13k, at which point i think you'd have a pretty tough go against a good reaver without bracing, since you'd be dead in under 30s at that morale threshold, and i don't think your dps would be that much higher to make up for it.

    I suppose I'm also looking at this from a warden's perspective, where if I were taking the fight seriously, I'd have bleeds ticking while i slow down the phase of the fight that dust can't be removed, and of course i can't remove dust with bracing. My point about movement (which again I'm just starting to scratch the surface of, so don't think i'm really doing it effectively now) is things like a strafe in one direction while you fire swift and brutal, and instantly changing direction to force your opponent into a 180, before their second attack can fire, rather than simply mantaining frontal contact with your opponent.
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  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    I'd consider delaying a dev strike good under any circumstance, since its their second hardest hitting skill.
    It can only really matter at all for a couple reasons, because without bracing there is only going to be one dev strike during a fight if they aren't using ATO. First, it gives the reaver slightly less time to fit dev strike into their rotation. Secondly, you might lose a bit of heals from the rohan ring proc if it procs late and you get dev striked early, which tends to be rare. Enough of a difference for me to swap? Probably. A game changer? Probably not.

    Aside from that, there is more raw morale available via jewelry than the golds you mention. Even if your dps until you take the first impale is complete trash, its 'free' dps since you are swapping out enough morale that the first impale is completely negated, so even if you do 2k dps while they've done 4k, thats still 2k more than your 'actual' starting point. You would not be at 17k morale in BiS gold items, and would more likely be around 12-13k, at which point i think you'd have a pretty tough go against a good reaver without bracing, since you'd be dead in under 30s at that morale threshold, and i don't think your dps would be that much higher to make up for it.
    Yes, it is possible to swap even with the gold jewelry, but my point was that gold jewelry alone without swapping probably would be enough to win against a reaver without bracing.

    "Free morale" is an oversimplification, especially against classes like reavers/spiders. Against wargs, free morale is a huge deal since they start off with probably their highest dps and you start off stunned and it doesn't matter what sort of offensive stats you start with. Reavers (and spiders) have housekeeping type skills they need to go through (upperhand, dust, sunder, hamstring, and to some extent - even bleeds) before they start taking off chunks of morale. Just because you can swap down to lower morale gear doesn't necessarily mean it's a good idea to let them go through half a rotation before you start seriously hitting back. Is "starting" at 11k morale with 4 reaver dots and reaver debuffs on you in exchange for 3-4k damage on the reaver and impale on a 20 second cooldown an advantage over starting at 14k morale and a fresh slate? I'm not saying swapping isn't stronger. It's just that swapping with gold jewels > gold jewels > swapping with purple/teal stuff.

    As for starting morale with gold jewelry, it'd probably be closer to 16k morale (maybe higher - I haven't looked too closely at the stats yet). I only hit 17.5k morale because of my utility LIs (which I assume most every champ/freep uses). My dps LIs put me under 14k morale. Unfortunately, when I'm sitting at 17.5k morale, I believe I have about 2k crit/10k pm, so when I say empty morale, it's fairly close to empty.

    Fighting a reaver is unlikely to last just 30 seconds in that sort of gear. The base morale is probably quite high and the newer freep gear comes with loads of crit defense. On top of that, you have to also add another 2k or so from the morale ring proc. And even if a reaver does kill you in 2 impales (which is unlikely), it would take 2 impales with 4 dots each and both would have to crit or dev, in which case you probably should lose or you need to gimp further. There isn't much more a reaver can do to improve on something like that.

    Seeing that 550 dps against a reaver is a fairly common occurrence with my set up (I can't hit hard to start and I don't hedge - which probably costs at least 10-15 seconds of dpsing, also I trait more to fight spiders as I find them trickier to beat without bracing than reavers), I figure 650 or higher dps isn't out of the question if you start dpsing early and hedge. In a 40 second fight that's already 26k damage so reavers would have to hit quite hard to win.

    I suppose I'm also looking at this from a warden's perspective, where if I were taking the fight seriously, I'd have bleeds ticking while i slow down the phase of the fight that dust can't be removed, and of course i can't remove dust with bracing. My point about movement (which again I'm just starting to scratch the surface of, so don't think i'm really doing it effectively now) is things like a strafe in one direction while you fire swift and brutal, and instantly changing direction to force your opponent into a 180, before their second attack can fire, rather than simply mantaining frontal contact with your opponent.
    A champ's play is probably more similar to a warg than a warden. Champs need to stay in melee range even with the range legacy just because auto attacks are a large part of a champ's dps. While champs don't have positional damage, BPE and partial bpe kills a champ's dps because champs are so reliant on crits to do high dps so having positional is quite important.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddyfence View Post
    It can only really matter at all for a couple reasons, because without bracing there is only going to be one dev strike during a fight if they aren't using ATO. First, it gives the reaver slightly less time to fit dev strike into their rotation. Secondly, you might lose a bit of heals from the rohan ring proc if it procs late and you get dev striked early, which tends to be rare. Enough of a difference for me to swap? Probably. A game changer? Probably not.


    Yes, it is possible to swap even with the gold jewelry, but my point was that gold jewelry alone without swapping probably would be enough to win against a reaver without bracing.

    "Free morale" is an oversimplification, especially against classes like reavers/spiders. Against wargs, free morale is a huge deal since they start off with probably their highest dps and you start off stunned and it doesn't matter what sort of offensive stats you start with. Reavers (and spiders) have housekeeping type skills they need to go through (upperhand, dust, sunder, hamstring, and to some extent - even bleeds) before they start taking off chunks of morale. Just because you can swap down to lower morale gear doesn't necessarily mean it's a good idea to let them go through half a rotation before you start seriously hitting back. Is "starting" at 11k morale with 4 reaver dots and reaver debuffs on you in exchange for 3-4k damage on the reaver and impale on a 20 second cooldown an advantage over starting at 14k morale and a fresh slate? I'm not saying swapping isn't stronger. It's just that swapping with gold jewels > gold jewels > swapping with purple/teal stuff.

    As for starting morale with gold jewelry, it'd probably be closer to 16k morale (maybe higher - I haven't looked too closely at the stats yet). I only hit 17.5k morale because of my utility LIs (which I assume most every champ/freep uses). My dps LIs put me under 14k morale. Unfortunately, when I'm sitting at 17.5k morale, I believe I have about 2k crit/10k pm, so when I say empty morale, it's fairly close to empty.

    Fighting a reaver is unlikely to last just 30 seconds in that sort of gear. The base morale is probably quite high and the newer freep gear comes with loads of crit defense. On top of that, you have to also add another 2k or so from the morale ring proc. And even if a reaver does kill you in 2 impales (which is unlikely), it would take 2 impales with 4 dots each and both would have to crit or dev, in which case you probably should lose or you need to gimp further. There isn't much more a reaver can do to improve on something like that.
    Your Kinnie Isindre has what most would consider best in slot items for rings, bracelets, necklace, and pocket (though I don't like the pocket or neck choice). The ears are pretty glass-cannon, and I'd personally go with at least one with some vit/morale compared to what he has (the 150 might, 200 morale, 700 crit ones), but he's sitting at just over 12k morale, iirc. Your BfP and a more defensive earring or two wouldn't net 4k in morale, but perhaps your ideas for gold item choices are different than his, I know mine would be. Either way, he has a very 'gold' build, and if his reaver fights last over 30s, its that they last 31s.

    Seeing that 550 dps against a reaver is a fairly common occurrence with my set up (I can't hit hard to start and I don't hedge - which probably costs at least 10-15 seconds of dpsing, also I trait more to fight spiders as I find them trickier to beat without bracing than reavers), I figure 650 or higher dps isn't out of the question if you start dpsing early and hedge. In a 40 second fight that's already 26k damage so reavers would have to hit quite hard to win.


    A champ's play is probably more similar to a warg than a warden. Champs need to stay in melee range even with the range legacy just because auto attacks are a large part of a champ's dps. While champs don't have positional damage, BPE and partial bpe kills a champ's dps because champs are so reliant on crits to do high dps so having positional is quite important.
    I'd be very interested to hear what a more well geared Champ is hitting for a dps figure vs a good reaver, I'm not doubting your numbers at all, if anything I'm surprised they are that low (I must have terrible crit luck vs your champ when I'm on warg. From what i remember of the few fights we've had, your total attacks weren't inordinately higher than other champs that don't suck, but my incoming damage was just as high as those with much better gear than you're describing).

    And if you think a miss/bpe is detrimental on a champ, try missing on a 5 length DoT gambit... not that anyone wants to hear a warden complain about things being hard for them in the moors.
    [center][img]http://i58.tinypic.com/2wrm5ja_th.jpg[/img][/center]
    [center]Let our actions speak for themselves. Jinjaah has been pouring over every post in the Bullroarer forum. Please keep in mind that any experiences with previous LOTRO teams are not reflective of the current team, give us a chance[/center]

  19. #19
    Aaanyway... Solution to Impale = superior DPS + gear swapping, then?
    Feailuve - Akabath
    [EN]Evernight

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    Your Kinnie Isindre has what most would consider best in slot items for rings, bracelets, necklace, and pocket (though I don't like the pocket or neck choice). The ears are pretty glass-cannon, and I'd personally go with at least one with some vit/morale compared to what he has (the 150 might, 200 morale, 700 crit ones), but he's sitting at just over 12k morale, iirc. Your BfP and a more defensive earring or two wouldn't net 4k in morale, but perhaps your ideas for gold item choices are different than his, I know mine would be. Either way, he has a very 'gold' build, and if his reaver fights last over 30s, its that they last 31s.
    Like I said earlier, my jewelry takes me to 14k morale. My utility LIs give me another 3.5k morale to 17.5k. If he's sitting at 12k, having utility LIs (which most people have) would put him at 15.5k and there are some better pieces he isn't using. Out of curiosity, I looked up how much my stats would change if I used one set of any jewelry of my choice (looking at ears/neck/bracelets/pocket since I already use rohan rings) as opposed to swapping with what I have at the moment.

    In comparison to my max morale set up, the gold jewels would give

    -904 morale +212 might +100 vit +1240 crit -360 PM +98 tact mit +3090 Crit D (!!) with another fairly easy to proc +2k crit D

    and compared to my max dps set up, the gold jewels would give

    +773 morale +54 might +317 vit -608 crit -360 PM -723 tact mit +2080 crit D with the +2k crit D proc still


    Overall with that jewelry, I would be able to start with 604 less morale with almost the same DPS as my best dps gear. Not to mention, an increase of 4-5k crit defense which buffs survivability by a huge amount. I didn't realize there was that much crit D still available, so even that much survivability might not be necessary and some can be dumped for more dps. That build would be a pain to get and I definitely would not be willing to put in the work, but it'll have more significantly more survivability than my current build and output at least the same, if not higher, dps than my build by virtue of not having to start off with gimped dps stats.

  21. #21
    4.5k Impale on a Champ means 4 bleeds and mostly likely a devastate with I want to say 3 red OPs which doesn't happen often. It's the same as 3 FS crits/dev taking off almost half their morale in 1 go. Besides, you should be able to burst him down before he bursts you down. With capped crit you're bound to get a crit on BS at least once per use and if god forbid you get a nice 5-6k dev on MS its gg in 30 sec. My spars usually lasts around 40-60 sec depending on whether they Wrath or not. Either way you shouldn't eat 4 bleed Impale more than once.

    tl;dr: Get good gear and faceroll brutal + clobber.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giliodor View Post
    Yes, sorry about me using bracing, I didn't notice you didn't heal till we finished our sparring. I won't next time. I have all maxed legacies, on a First Age 1h and 2h. No Rune, Rend Pulses is only at 8! But it's not really relevant to the question.



    It's BPE, I remove the Dust with Bracing, nearly always works.



    http://prntscr.com/1o4023



    I don't have the appropriate gear to swap, plus I'm lagging too badly for it, atm.



    I don't have any problems with it, after practicing it a lot at GTA on my warden.



    I can say I always face my opponent, and when I don't, it's against a warg because I want him to do positional damage so our spar ends in a draw, rather than a victory for me.



    I think I shouldn't: a fight shouldn't be dependant on gear.



    I'm only on 3,5k with the proc. Yes, it's low. I mentioned my gear, didn't I?
    I linked it in OOC, it was 2k initial hit + 863 * 3.


    By the look on your screenshot you have pretty much bad build for fighting reavers. I do not 1on1 at gta but i finghted most of reavers when finding them soloing around, never got hit with 4k hit from any impale, maybe 3k if they luck. I gto crit defence of 6k and finness on 2,5k only, while i maintain 2,4k might + 1,2k vitality, i still have around 8k tactical and 16k physical mit and 6k resistance, while overal having 13,5k moral in glory, 1k moral less in fervour, 4-3 traited.. You should re-check your jewlery, got 1st age rune, put maybe better rune legacies aswell, dont know those since u havent linked picture of legacies but 1,4k might is way to low for a champion vs reaver, you cannot dps good enough in that.

    For Crit Defence, replace rings, u will earn 2x 1,9k crit defence out from Library rings with 150might + crit defence, and vity.

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by zrinko View Post
    By the look on your screenshot you have pretty much bad build for fighting reavers. I do not 1on1 at gta but i finghted most of reavers when finding them soloing around, never got hit with 4k hit from any impale, maybe 3k if they luck. I gto crit defence of 6k and finness on 2,5k only, while i maintain 2,4k might + 1,2k vitality, i still have around 8k tactical and 16k physical mit and 6k resistance, while overal having 13,5k moral in glory, 1k moral less in fervour, 4-3 traited.. You should re-check your jewlery, got 1st age rune, put maybe better rune legacies aswell, dont know those since u havent linked picture of legacies but 1,4k might is way to low for a champion vs reaver, you cannot dps good enough in that.
    Actually, I find my Brutal Strikes hitting for 1400 most of the time which sounds pretty decent to me. It's about stacking crit, not neccesarrily PM, nowadays.

    For Crit Defence, replace rings, u will earn 2x 1,9k crit defence out from Library rings with 150might + crit defence, and vity.
    I have that one, but I found a 1600 heal far superior to 2k crit defence.
    Feailuve - Akabath
    [EN]Evernight

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Giliodor View Post
    I have that one, but I found a 1600 heal far superior to 2k crit defence.
    It is, it's actually way too good which is why it's frowned upon in 1v1s on our server. TBH if I use that in 1v1s I probably wouldn't drop below 10k morale. Js..

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Shintagh View Post
    It is, it's actually way too good which is why it's frowned upon in 1v1s on our server. TBH if I use that in 1v1s I probably wouldn't drop below 10k morale. Js..
    Suuure... Well I'll go and use that one instead, then. Let's see how it turns out. So far, I can't even play, so well...
    Feailuve - Akabath
    [EN]Evernight

 

 
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