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  1. #251
    Quote Originally Posted by Sapience View Post
    In all three supported languages. So, we're at that stage of, "We can't call each player and tell them personally". But it is very much in your face. It's the #1 position in the launcher.

    "I didn't know" will not be an acceptable excuse going forward.
    Thanks for clarifying... I must have missed it when I last logged in.... would have been nice to update the CoC so that people not only had to sign to agree then the ignorance is not an excuse would be more reasonable...

    As for the query about me being on the council.... as it had been an issue with others before diversity and perspective is important to everything here..
    "There are things that go bump in the night. We're the ones who bump back." -BPRD

  2. #252
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    891
    Quote Originally Posted by CreepHiveMind View Post
    Reported 2 people in the last 3 years, both for severe offences. Would never dream of using the CoC against people like that. Get over yourself. Oh the irony of this after the post I quoted above.
    Actually that's not ironic at all. Its a practice against the rules. he's on the players council. What is ironic is that you'd find it ironic given that I know you'll intentionally misinterpret this rule to your own advantage, as you just did.

  3. #253
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    1

    Kin Leader of Leaders of the Path

    Nice to finally see a change to the CoC rules for this. Perhaps we will see penalties for low tier farming in moors now?

  4. #254
    Having read most of the posts in this thread, it would appear that most of what has been quoted is not rank framing (clubbing) To me clubbing is when char A and char B go to a remote part of the moors, and A kills B, they then rinse and repeat adinfinitum. Char B making no attempt to kill A It would appear this is mostly done when the server activity is very slow,


    If and when this is detected imo the sanctions should be all chars linked to the account should have their rank, audacity etten deeds etc reset to 0 etten armour removed from all freep chars and all TP bought skills removed from creep chars.

  5. #255
    if there wasnt a ridiculous rank system in the first place it wouldnt happen.

    no wonder nobody pvps. to attain rank 15 or a higher rank u would have to play in pvp for 5+ years.

    great incentive for new players to start doing it hey?

  6. #256
    Quote Originally Posted by Sapience View Post
    It's the #1 position in the launcher.
    Thank you for pointing this out. I had no idea that the item in the #1 position (no matter what it was) was hidden from me. Once I learned that, I was able to get the problem fixed.

  7. #257
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Posts
    5
    Such a joke of a rule. Power to Zanishi -Vilya

  8. #258
    Ok, so, my question is:
    once in a while, I'll hop on my creep and 1v1 against a freep-side kin member. It's not a 'just stand there and let me kill you' 1v1, it is a legit, no other people supporting or healing us, fight.
    It's a 'let's go up against each other and see who kills whom first.' type of fight. Again, i stress that this is once in a while, and it is a legit fight to kill them before they kill me.
    is this no longer allowed? Or is this even considered farming?
    (Personally, i think that competitive 1v1's alright once in a while, and as long as it's not a one-sided fight)
    thanks,
    -sael
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0b20c00000016957c/01008/signature.png]undefined[/charsig]

  9. #259
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    1,094
    Quote Originally Posted by BlackCat4919 View Post
    Ok, so, my question is:
    once in a while, I'll hop on my creep and 1v1 against a freep-side kin member. It's not a 'just stand there and let me kill you' 1v1, it is a legit, no other people supporting or healing us, fight.
    It's a 'let's go up against each other and see who kills whom first.' type of fight. Again, i stress that this is once in a while, and it is a legit fight to kill them before they kill me.
    is this no longer allowed? Or is this even considered farming?
    (Personally, i think that competitive 1v1's alright once in a while, and as long as it's not a one-sided fight)
    thanks,
    -sael
    That's clearly not rank farming if you go by the definition they've given us.
    Hir i Meigol Bruinen/High Council Member of the EoI/Of the Exiles of the Hidden City/Meigol Bruinen, Uncle Seregnin's Misguided Children, Curse the name of Maeglin, the Treacherous Villain, forever, may he rot in the Halls of Mandos for all time....
    Player Councillor. [url]http://www.swtor.com/r/XWNQXP[/url] is my refer-a-friend link for SWTOR.

  10. #260
    Honestly i read the first few posts but to be honest with you I read one of things that said rank farmers are people who stir up trouble kinless and only want solo. I say this is incorrect as I am warg who prefers to solo but only the quests I don't rank farm. nor have i ever. so i'm kind of amazed that first few posts where about labeling people as rank farmers to be honest. there are some out there who just prefer to run around ettens doing solo quests and dailies it isn't illegal and not mention that fact it doesn't make someone like me a rank farmer obviously. i hate rank farmers they pretty much ruin just about every game with pvp. since this rule is reliant on the players to report it how many people will actually report it. and what if someone thinks another person is rank farming when they aren't and reports it. I mean i'm more concerned with people falsely reporting my warg in ettens even though i'm not rank farmer. it took me good number of weeks to get my warg up to rank he is. honestly i'd be more concerned with people mistaking those who rank up up quickly that aren't rank farming for rank farmers but i don't think it's likely as ranking up is grind really.

  11. #261
    It appears to me, that turbine refuses to confirm or deny any and all methods of farming outside of the definition given... This is so that they can be "creative" when applying the rule to people who are also being "creative" to abuse the system...

    Unfortunately this leaves a lot of things open to perspective not just for turbine but for the players such as, what if you used a proxy on the alt and alt-f4'd every time you got attacked (I just can't seem to stay connected and its been like this for hours)... OR what if someone was to simply turn their characters around and pose fighting back, in detail mind you, not just minor skills, i can assure you i could do this without use of a program (I keep trying to beat this guy in a 1v1 but he just destroys me)... OR just autorun and chase them down (I tried to get away but he used too much CC)... I literally could go on all day on different scenarios of farming, covert farming and standard play that this rule can both apply to...

    My real concern is framing and griefing... No one wants to walk on eggshells when finding an opponent especially when no one is out and your fighting the same person repeatedly... For example, create a F2P use a proxy and repeatedly charge my "victim" until someone reports it, if the F2P account is banned and not the "victim" no harm done... but how can turbine determine if it was not the "victim" doing that? another example, last night on my server there may have been 3 creeps out, but i killed the same reaver trying to farm his troll stone at least 10 times, easily within 30 mins... Since that was obviously not considered farming I could easily replicate that same behavior and farm... but if it was then i could use the same behavior to frame someone...

    see where i am going with this?

    Again I am glad turbine made a decision about this i just wish that there was more follow through on how to protect innocent players... It is my understanding that a players history would be considered when someone is reported... now I know this is more about me in this example but if someone was to attempt to frame me how would these things be considered? Since I have history with farming (willingly and openly by my choice i might add) would this mean I would not be protected as easily as someone without the history?

    I myself am a bit exhausted of the subject and since I do not intend to have my lifetime accounts harmed I will not be farming at all... So as this has been made official these will be my last words on the subject... Thank you for all your consideration and Turbine, I hope you reconsider how you approach this issue as breaking the rules are indeed bad but punishing innocent players might be worse (just my opinion there)...

    Thank you and see you on the battlefield

    P.S. I should think this goes without saying but its ironic that farming (powerleveling for creeps in my perspective) is bad, however you can powerlevel your freeps till your blue in the face... maybe i will just have to go back to being a freep....
    "There are things that go bump in the night. We're the ones who bump back." -BPRD

  12. #262
    Quote Originally Posted by Nefarioux View Post
    if there wasnt a ridiculous rank system in the first place it wouldnt happen.

    no wonder nobody pvps. to attain rank 15 or a higher rank u would have to play in pvp for 5+ years.

    great incentive for new players to start doing it hey?
    R15 being nearly unobtainable for typical or even dedicated players is one of the few things turbine has gotten right over the years. If you could get r15 in a couple months or even a xpac cycle, mamy more people would hit r15 and leave. This isn't like a level cap raise where you start from square one working on a new build and deeds/raids. In pvmp, once you're r15 thats it. Done. finished. Not many people continue playing regularly after getting r15.

  13. #263
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    3,203
    I'm guessing enforcement will be fairly lax, on the order of how enforcement of lore-breaking character names is carried out. I'm guessing that the resources (aka employee hours, aka $) needed to fully investigate each and every reported case will be excessive. Just a guess though. I'd be happy if it were fairly and rigorously enforced, just will believe it when it happens. I've never farmed (hence my just reaching R10 after a few years), and obviously don't plan on starting now.

    I have seen circumstances that were strategy and look like farming, and might fall afoul of the rules as written.

    Freeps were camping lugz rez. Creeps came out a number of times, and died. They got smart and changed strategy. Small number of creeps continued to come out and repeatedly suicided against the freeps without meaningfully attempting to fight. This kept the interest of the vast majority of freeps (free comms/reknown). Meanwhile other creeps mapped over to TR and took it. Was the behavior of the suiciding creeps and the freeps that harvested them "rank farming"? Seems like a close call just looking locally at the behavior of those involved...
    Last edited by DelgonTheWise; Aug 30 2013 at 07:52 AM.

  14. #264
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Posts
    1,269
    Quote Originally Posted by BlackCat4919 View Post
    Ok, so, my question is:
    once in a while, I'll hop on my creep and 1v1 against a freep-side kin member. It's not a 'just stand there and let me kill you' 1v1, it is a legit, no other people supporting or healing us, fight.
    It's a 'let's go up against each other and see who kills whom first.' type of fight. Again, i stress that this is once in a while, and it is a legit fight to kill them before they kill me.
    is this no longer allowed? Or is this even considered farming?
    (Personally, i think that competitive 1v1's alright once in a while, and as long as it's not a one-sided fight)
    thanks,
    -sael
    Why would you think what you described is anything close to this?
    Quote Originally Posted by CSM_River View Post
    “Rank Farming” is officially defined as the intentional surrender of your character to an enemy; resulting in a purposeful defeat and a gain of Infamy or renown to increase rank...
    To answer your question, 1v1s are certainly still allowed and not considered farming by my reading of the new rule.

  15. #265
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Posts
    113
    Quote Originally Posted by ColorSpecs View Post
    Actually that's not ironic at all. Its a practice against the rules. he's on the players council. What is ironic is that you'd find it ironic given that I know you'll intentionally misinterpret this rule to your own advantage, as you just did.
    There is nothing wrong with his sig, perhaps you're intentionally misinterpreting it in order to try and create conflict, I sense some underlying jealousy.

    And pray do tell how you interpreted that statement, seems pretty clear what you implied despite your pretentious nature.

  16. #266
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    England. north-west
    Posts
    2,685
    Quote Originally Posted by SabrielofLorien View Post
    All they need is a name, 1 name will do, 2+ is better.
    Quote Originally Posted by CSM_River View Post
    Please open an in-game ticket to report it, and choose Cheating/Exploiting for your drop downs in the ticket window. If you *can* capture that names of the parties involved that's most helpful, but at least one is necessary.
    so there is no form of screenshot submitting then? I don't mind yes or no (and it would be purely used for reporting, no other usage or discussing the punishment system), but I just like to be easier to show GM's extent of how much people farm farmed for the super obvious and worse offenders.

    or do you do that all n your side?

    should it be just /report then leave it at that? no discussion, no boasting "lol I reported you, cheater!" or cause other violations of the CoC yourself ofc. leave it at report and then clear mind men in black style

    Quote Originally Posted by CSM_River View Post
    Thanks for all the feedback and questions.
    NO!!!

    thank you (and the player council) for working/listening/discussion on getting a foundation for what much of the PvMP has begged for.

    THANK YOU!!!

    I would of loved to see that thread XD I bet player council were at each others throat at times
    Last edited by bohbashum; Aug 29 2013 at 07:09 PM.

  17. #267
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Posts
    1,269
    Quote Originally Posted by Zanishi View Post
    Unfortunately this leaves a lot of things open to perspective not just for turbine but for the players such as, what if you used a proxy on the alt and alt-f4'd every time you got attacked (I just can't seem to stay connected and its been like this for hours)... OR what if someone was to simply turn their characters around and pose fighting back, in detail mind you, not just minor skills, i can assure you i could do this without use of a program (I keep trying to beat this guy in a 1v1 but he just destroys me)... OR just autorun and chase them down (I tried to get away but he used too much CC)... I literally could go on all day on different scenarios of farming, covert farming and standard play that this rule can both apply to...
    I think if T looks at the logs and other evidence, they could determine if there was any farming going on if you did it often enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zanishi View Post
    My real concern is framing and griefing... No one wants to walk on eggshells when finding an opponent especially when no one is out and your fighting the same person repeatedly... For example, create a F2P use a proxy and repeatedly charge my "victim" until someone reports it, if the F2P account is banned and not the "victim" no harm done... but how can turbine determine if it was not the "victim" doing that? another example, last night on my server there may have been 3 creeps out, but i killed the same reaver trying to farm his troll stone at least 10 times, easily within 30 mins... Since that was obviously not considered farming I could easily replicate that same behavior and farm... but if it was then i could use the same behavior to frame someone...
    Again, T could look at the logs and data to see if this reaver fought back or not. As for suiciding, it IS an issue that may be thorny but the "victim" and everyone else has to use a little common sense. The 'victim' needs to report the player doing this if it happens often enough or move on to a different area.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zanishi View Post
    see where i am going with this?
    Yes, I do. You make up little strawman edge cases and think T can't use discretion or common sense when looking at the data or that they've never dealt with edge cases or possible harassment or false reports in the past.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zanishi View Post
    Again I am glad turbine made a decision about this i just wish that there was more follow through on how to protect innocent players... It is my understanding that a players history would be considered when someone is reported... now I know this is more about me in this example but if someone was to attempt to frame me how would these things be considered? Since I have history with farming (willingly and openly by my choice i might add) would this mean I would not be protected as easily as someone without the history?
    Since there is to be nothing done about past rank farming, you should be fine from here on out.

  18. #268
    Remember there are 2 parts of the rule:

    1. Rank Farming is prohibited.
    2. False reporting of Rank Farming is also prohibited.

    If you see it report it. Don't report it if you don't see it.


    The CSRs can see "all" in the combat logs and other metrics. They have a lot more at their disposal than we "think" they do. Many other questions fall into the ordinary buckets of harassment which are also reportable. Some questions fall into the area of PVMP strategies. These can be checked by the CSRs too.

    If you think someone has crossed the line, report it and let the CSRs do their job of investigating and enforcing.
    Whoever says “I” creates the “you.” Such is the trap of every conscience. The “I” signifies both solitude and rejection of solitude. Words name things and then replace them. Whoever says tomorrow, denies it. Tomorrow exists only for him who does not seek it. And yesterday? Yesterday is Kolvillàg: a name to forget, a word already forgotten.

    The Oath: A Novel by Elie Wiesel

  19. #269
    I can't understand why this wasn't official from the first day. Anyway i w8 for some permanent bans for those who clubb and those who report with no evidences.

    More rules are not good but in this case are necessary, thank you Turbine.

  20. #270
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Tennessee
    Posts
    2,277
    Quote Originally Posted by bohbashum View Post
    I would of loved to see that thread XD I bet player council were at each others troat at times

    no comment

  21. #271
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    3

    Finally!

    It's about time we got an official definition and policy.

    Thanks, Turbine

  22. #272
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    8
    Quote Originally Posted by Awesome0025 View Post
    It's about time we got an official definition and policy.

    Thanks, Turbine

    All the issues, all the exploits, all the bad game design and this is the issue that Turbine addresses. @shakeshead.

  23. #273
    Perhaps they do care about PvMP more than we think.

  24. #274
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    US
    Posts
    109
    Too Little, TOO LATE
    I given up hope and those that will get a pass are so far up in rank now or capped rank in moors that it won't matter.
    This has become an EPIDEMIC of EPIC PROPORTIONS. It will have to be approached with caution.
    You have new people farming and going out there learning bad habits.... learned from long time pvpers in Moors.
    I for one have given up hope on the reporting, the chastising, and calling anyone out nothing was really done with gold farmers much.
    Nothing was done to stem the rising tide of this rank farming issue ... (EXCEPTION OF A FEW)
    6yrs going on not just last year. It is just easier to rank now then before and farm rank even easier.


    Anyways good luck and happy hunting for those who stay the course.
    This just seems like a drop in bucket with a way to pacify the masses.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0920a000000096bfa/signature.png]Cardoba[/charsig]

  25. #275
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Posts
    456
    Quote Originally Posted by CreepHiveMind View Post
    There is nothing wrong with his sig, perhaps you're intentionally misinterpreting it in order to try and create conflict, I sense some underlying jealousy.

    And pray do tell how you interpreted that statement, seems pretty clear what you implied despite your pretentious nature.
    More than a few of the people posting in this thread have pictures in their sigs that violate the rules. Most are simply too big (this is I believe what ColorSpecs is referring to). Note that all the "old" character signature pictures are now too big and break the rules. Other ones that I've seen today have either been an animated signature and at least one that had nothing to do with LOTRO.

    /endthreadjack

 

 
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