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  1. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Untg99 View Post
    Most complaints about any class are from people who are ridiculously butthurt over being owned by said class.
    Some of it is justified, but there's too many people (including wardens themselves) who seem to know exactly how it works and what needs to be done to fix it.

    Excuse that sarcasm, but simply pointing out that something is wrong and then giving a sweeping fix that you're not going to seriously consider the overall effect of is plain idiocy and attention seeking.
    And yeah, even I've been guilty of that.

    Most proclaimating wardens (Or maybe this is just a rant to idiot creeps) are agreeing that our self heals and bleeds and DC and morale leeches are too OP, but they're all saying that the way to fix every single one of them is just to reduce all of their overall potency.
    If you want that. If you really really want that, you can enjoy your class that does absolutely no damage and has absolutely no survivability.
    Because by jumping on the creep QQ bandwagon thats exactly what most of you are advocating.

    It's really funny because the people who actually have something valuable to put forward (So, for example, definitely not most wardens about moors wardening) are called trolls among other things.
    This isn't warden specific either.

    The wardens probably going to be turned upside down with helms deep anyway. You can bet you're ### off with the lack of hybrid trait builds that there's going to be valuable trade-offs.
    Besides, I'd really like to continue talking about how over the top the weaver is rather than the warden, nobody seems to like giving that any attention when there's far more of a ridiculous array in the weavers hands than almost(?) any class in the moors
    Its perfectly valid to point out that any suggested changes could be made moot by whatever the Devs have planned with HD.

    My relatively longstanding suggestions for 'fixing' wardens are fairly well thought out, reduce some of what i feel is the more egregious problems with the class, while maintaining them as a fully viable moors class.

    Make warden reflects require a double stack. 1 gambit for 20 seconds of 114 damage reflected per hit taken is over the top. in many situations, using 1 wall of steel, the reflect is the highest source of damage i have, on a dps build spear warden. Make it so 1 wall of steel use gives us 57 dmg reflect, and the second brings it up to 114. Wall of steel is one of our better dps skills anyway, so this wouldn't gimp a dps rotation, but it would mean a little effort is required to actually get the bonus, plus this mechanic already exists in determination with block and evade buffs.

    Reduce DC's mits bonus to 15s. I really, really hope I don't have to get into this one.

    Reduce base bleed/dot durations to 2 ticks (8 seconds), force of personality +1 tick (12 seconds) Way of the Spear capstone +1 tick (16s). increase bleed/dot damage by 25% across the board, and mildly increase upfront damage. Total dps would remain largely unchained or possibly improved for a warden, their pve and burst dps would be slightly improved (and make them move viable in killing trash mobs) and QQ over dying 20s after a fight ended would generally cease. Further, the viability of stacking the 3 major bleeds, swapping stance and stacking heals, then swapping back to refresh bleeds would be significantly diminished, in that bleeds would no longer be able to be kept up full time.

    Shield wardens, along with healing rks are the most poignant reminder of how powerful freep healing is. My opinion is that healing is too powerful on both sides (moreso freepside, of course). Get rid of the damage reduction on audacity and provide a 30-50% buff to morale pools instead, unhealed targets would still take a roughly similar amount of time to die, but the relative potency of healing would go well down, and many situations where healers can flat out put out more hps than their multiple attackers can apply in dps no longer exists, which changes the dynamic of many heal dependent classes, shield wardens in particular.

    the 4 shield trait for crit immunity is bugged, there is nothing else to this. It is supposed to provide crit immunity for 7 seconds after recieving a critical hit on a 45 second cooldown. Currently it provides crit immunity for 7 seconds after recieving a critical hit, on a 0 second cooldown. This is broken (and largely doesn't matter given any decent tank will have 50% crit D in pve gear) in PvE, and its broken in the Moors. Fix the bug.

    There you go, wardens are still a fully viable, and even likely one of the strongest solo freep classes, but the ridiculous things they have no business doing right now get reduced to a more palatable state. Every 'OP' facet of the class is in some way addressed, and to some extent nerfed, but in such a way that there are tradeoffs that keep them fully capable.

    The class did more than fine before U6 when bleed durations were 16s, reflects only existed on the old, ###### DC gambit (that no one in their right mind used), and crit immunity and the current incarnation of DC were just the wet dreams of warden's who hadn't gotten a full grasp of the class. Heck, I would be happy if we were less potent than what we could do pre-revamp, but bringing us back to that level would be a great step in the right direction.

    I generally like assailment stance, as a concept. Its just an unfinished mess with a complete lack of fluidity that forces a spammy 3-5 gambit rotation.

    I do really miss morale surfing, i'll give you that.

    Quote Originally Posted by bohbashum View Post
    number of skills =/= choices made

    that 20 is also rotational/mechanical/slight cooldown/high cooldown skills. not skills like stances/ports and slightly more fluffy. 20 is actually better than some classes have now...
    and 20 skills is still a big reduction compared to what some classes have now...
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  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by bohbashum View Post
    I'll explain the reasoning behind it better.

    example 1:
    freep has 10k moral -> gets hit by 1.3k -> audacity reduces that to 1k -> freep needs 1k heal to be back to max moral.

    it takes in total 10 hits to kill the freep

    example 2:
    freep has 13k moral -> gets hit by 1.3k -> no reduction -> freep needs 1.3k heal to get back to max moral.

    it still takes 10 hits to kill the freep

    increasing moral doesn't exactly increase suvival, you need the heals to be increased too. it's ironic creeps have the high moral and low heals, yet freeps have the low moral and high heals. it should really be the other way round tbh. increasing freep moral by 30% is kinda the same as increasing mits by 30%, still same amount of hits to kill you over time. have the high moral low healing low mits creeps audacity increase mits and inc healing, and the low moral high healing high mits freeps increase moral pools. then you do infact have a better balanced system.

    I think the only guys who would serisouly lose out on this are classes that don't self heal in the first place. hunter/guardian maybe. while I think guardian needs some love in moors tbh, hunter is a serious glass canon these days and people seem to enjoy that. with blood arrow taking off a % though I think hunter might need a little love too though.

    I'm also a firm believer that freeps don't need the -power costs now. it caused many freep classes to just never, ever run out of power. even if a creep class is trying there best to take it down, it's not. audacity doesn't really need that element tbh, or at least, not that strong.

    but I do agree. removing the stat caps hasn't exactly been good for the game. the holy trinity has been too good recently and I hope to see this changed in the class updates. HD has the first big hint of them trying to correct that though, so I hope I'm correct with the class revamps.

    EDIT: creeps get inc healing on BFP? mistake there sorry. meh same thing in a sence :P
    I didn't read all that, but I get what you are saying. Yes there is some "logic" behind it, but as I said it is unreasonable and super hard (almost impossible) to ballance. It caused ONLY problems since it's existance. During SoM, if you took away the Overpowered burglars and guardians at the time, I don't think there were any huge problems. (at least nothing even close to the mess it is nowdays).

    Quote Originally Posted by Selebrimbor View Post
    If one RK can outheal 10 creeps, the creeps don't know what focus fire is...just saying. Wardens can tank at least 6 creeps for a good amount of time while bleeding one of them to death and then moving on to the next one...my real problem with them is their survivability PLUS their bleeds. In addition, if you're out solo, you might as well not even attempt to fight a warden...especially a heal spamming one.

    My point basically is, the class is ridiculously overpowered. Also, I don't know if that warg comment was meant for me or not, but I'll have you know I use HiPS and Sprint offensively. I'd rather die with my fellow creeps than be called a coward.
    A good RK can do that for more than a minute with creeps being ONLY on him.
    @ wardens, the only way a warden can survive 6 creeps and kill one, is him being dps traits, and using DC. The skill is far too powerfull for the moors (it's duration at least). The only thing that really needs fix, is what I said before, the tank to dps swap in 1 second.

    Also lol the warg comment was not for you... I don't know what class or side you play let alone servers..
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  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yelloweyedemon View Post
    I didn't read all that, but I get what you are saying. Yes there is some "logic" behind it, but as I said it is unreasonable and super hard (almost impossible) to ballance. It caused ONLY problems since it's existance. During SoM, if you took away the Overpowered burglars and guardians at the time, I don't think there were any huge problems. (at least nothing even close to the mess it is nowdays).
    RK + captain was an epic combo, but still, people could counter it. 4 people could take them easy enough, even a well organized reaver+wl.

    you also didn't get people blowing up in seconds compared to now too... it's EXTREMELY hostile to new players.

    I would love some foundational balancing like freeps having full PvP only gear, the stats, dps and heals balanced out. the mits balanced. and most importantly have some rock paper scissors class so we know what can counter what.

    I completely understand. but it seems the broken balancing seems to make some people happy. no idea how moors has lasted so long at times...
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  4. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by bohbashum View Post
    freeps have enough -inc healing debuffs going around.
    Other than warden inc heals what else lowers incoming healing on freepside besides the captain routing cry debuff from armor?

    Quote Originally Posted by bohbashum View Post
    they also have more intterupts and stuns going around.
    while I agree freeps have more, both sides have means of negating healing, with freeps having the loremaster advantage. But that's when you have a loremaster in your group.

    Quote Originally Posted by bohbashum View Post
    the only reliable -inc healing nurf is from reaver which I always thought was ment to be a counter to healers, but even thats at >50% moral and doesn't last anyway near as long as other freep classes like... OP warden -_-
    and defiler patches. Especially with flayer warg root, another under-utilized skill.

    Quote Originally Posted by bohbashum View Post
    again, spunkler suggestion was epic for freep audacity. creep healing is ok balanced tbh. freep healing is insanely high compared to them. 2k+ hps is not at all balanced... seems like the only way you get kills at times is by swapping rat target quick enough so the healers don't keep up. which, does add some fun to moors. but it makes stacking healers the Ez mode to just rolf stomp people. especially captain that can seemingly pop out a lot while dpsing like a war-leader by 5x better.
    the hps thing is a good indicator that freep healing is indeed more than creep healing but that's an oversimplification of the moors healing issues. I mean, a small chunk of that hps is overheals on targets not needing it, and freeps have smaller morale pools in general especially in raid v raid where dps classes are much more glass cannon which means the reaction time for freeps healers is smaller. I still stand by my assertion that freep cooldowns are the biggest unfair advantage for freep healers due to these things. It'd make fights more dynamic, exactly as you describe with the quick target switching action and knowing that eventually someone will run out of cds and death will occur.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrfigglesworth View Post
    Other than warden inc heals what else lowers incoming healing on freepside besides the captain routing cry debuff from armor?
    This is probably the most prominent, considering that with the appropriate legacy it can be kept up indefinitely.

    That said I do think that reducing Incoming Healing is too rare an ability, which is partly why healing classes are so darn OP.
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  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by bohbashum View Post
    it was still better action than now tbh.

    on evernight we started to get better to counter the creep zergs and create our own, the RvR before U10 was brilliant on my server tbh. the ganking at GV was bad, but nothing at all like grams when the server seems dead on a saturday night...



    number of skills =/= choices made

    that 20 is also rotational/mechanical/slight cooldown/high cooldown skills. not skills like stances/ports and slightly more fluffy. 20 is actually better than some classes have now...


    good point actually, never thought of that.


    I hope so too.
    40 Fundamentally different skills in function offers more flexibility in skill usage and customisability than 20 with several functions.

    There's usually a bit of a gap period in the moors before an expansion anyway, things may speed up significantly in the few weeks prior to launch.

    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    Its perfectly valid to point out that any suggested changes could be made moot by whatever the Devs have planned with HD.

    My relatively longstanding suggestions for 'fixing' wardens are fairly well thought out, reduce some of what i feel is the more egregious problems with the class, while maintaining them as a fully viable moors class.

    Make warden reflects require a double stack. 1 gambit for 20 seconds of 114 damage reflected per hit taken is over the top. in many situations, using 1 wall of steel, the reflect is the highest source of damage i have, on a dps build spear warden. Make it so 1 wall of steel use gives us 57 dmg reflect, and the second brings it up to 114. Wall of steel is one of our better dps skills anyway, so this wouldn't gimp a dps rotation, but it would mean a little effort is required to actually get the bonus, plus this mechanic already exists in determination with block and evade buffs.

    Reduce DC's mits bonus to 15s. I really, really hope I don't have to get into this one.

    Reduce base bleed/dot durations to 2 ticks (8 seconds), force of personality +1 tick (12 seconds) Way of the Spear capstone +1 tick (16s). increase bleed/dot damage by 25% across the board, and mildly increase upfront damage. Total dps would remain largely unchained or possibly improved for a warden, their pve and burst dps would be slightly improved (and make them move viable in killing trash mobs) and QQ over dying 20s after a fight ended would generally cease. Further, the viability of stacking the 3 major bleeds, swapping stance and stacking heals, then swapping back to refresh bleeds would be significantly diminished, in that bleeds would no longer be able to be kept up full time.

    Shield wardens, along with healing rks are the most poignant reminder of how powerful freep healing is. My opinion is that healing is too powerful on both sides (moreso freepside, of course). Get rid of the damage reduction on audacity and provide a 30-50% buff to morale pools instead, unhealed targets would still take a roughly similar amount of time to die, but the relative potency of healing would go well down, and many situations where healers can flat out put out more hps than their multiple attackers can apply in dps no longer exists, which changes the dynamic of many heal dependent classes, shield wardens in particular.

    the 4 shield trait for crit immunity is bugged, there is nothing else to this. It is supposed to provide crit immunity for 7 seconds after recieving a critical hit on a 45 second cooldown. Currently it provides crit immunity for 7 seconds after recieving a critical hit, on a 0 second cooldown. This is broken (and largely doesn't matter given any decent tank will have 50% crit D in pve gear) in PvE, and its broken in the Moors. Fix the bug.

    There you go, wardens are still a fully viable, and even likely one of the strongest solo freep classes, but the ridiculous things they have no business doing right now get reduced to a more palatable state. Every 'OP' facet of the class is in some way addressed, and to some extent nerfed, but in such a way that there are tradeoffs that keep them fully capable.

    The class did more than fine before U6 when bleed durations were 16s, reflects only existed on the old, ###### DC gambit (that no one in their right mind used), and crit immunity and the current incarnation of DC were just the wet dreams of warden's who hadn't gotten a full grasp of the class. Heck, I would be happy if we were less potent than what we could do pre-revamp, but bringing us back to that level would be a great step in the right direction.

    I generally like assailment stance, as a concept. Its just an unfinished mess with a complete lack of fluidity that forces a spammy 3-5 gambit rotation.

    I do really miss morale surfing, i'll give you that.



    and 20 skills is still a big reduction compared to what some classes have now...
    Not sure whether you may have considered this or not, but the facet of the warden has largely always been overpowered in most aspects.
    For example, say I had infinite power, during moria in shield line I could outheal up to 4.5 decent wargs with the use of kiting.
    In fact, during mirkwood, once I'd kitted out my proc heal build to the point I was absorbing some auto attacks, I survived being ganked by 8 wargs sequentially and managed to kill 6 of them with the help of a burglar while I self healed the whole time. Roughly two minute fight.
    I finished that fight with ~1.2k morale and less than 200 power, which back then was ~1/8 of my health and less than 10% of my power.

    DoT's weren't innately OP, but wardens had a hell of a lot more compact damage as part of their base gambits and auto attacks which made their DPS formidable to all but kitted out burglars, guardians and red line hunters.
    The mitigation gap to heavies was only 10%. Thats 10% damage we weren't taking back then that we do now, with ridiculously potented self heals at the same time.

    DPS was actually in a better spot for the reason that it wasn't DoT reliant, we had self heals of similar potency to live now, and passive mitigations that prevented a significant portion of damage.
    As a result we didn't need reflects, or the mitigation bonus of DC (We actually had kind of a force taunt back then!), nor did we have the need for NS as it works now.

    Most facets of the class in that state were innately above average or overpowered, but the balancing factor was the wardens power consumption. Which, was countered by morale surfing DbD.
    And that's where the entire classes balance lied, and thats also where the entire classes, and players potential lied in the execution of the mechanic. In the moors, if you could morale surf efficiently, you were a God however you decided to play. In raiding, Healers only ever had to watch for an unlucky burst hit from durchest. Other than that, wardens were top tier tanks (Despite any of the BS people were throwing around).

    Well, after axing morale surfing and screwing over our mitigations, they ruined the delicate balance. U6 brought us back to par, but kept our OP facets without any trade-offs to counter except the passivity that Orion was so strong about not dealing with. The counter to that (Because that passivity ruined our raiding ability) meant that the ultimate trade-off moved from the skill gate of morale surfing DbD to simply hitting DC and/or NS. Or in the case of the moors, stacking up to 400 damage reflects.
    It's not a wonder that so many people started playing wardens after this period.

    Only really properly understood recently why Graalx2 was so stuckup about making any significant change to the warden towards raiding. And my conclusion is that its because it would involve the delicacy of that skill gate.
    With what devs have shared about HD changes, we will likely never ever see the old warden again.
    Last edited by Untg99; Sep 03 2013 at 06:28 PM.

  7. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by mrfigglesworth View Post
    and defiler patches. Especially with flayer warg root, another under-utilized skill.
    At least on E, less under-utilized than easily countered. Most any class should be able to get out of a flayer root in under 5 seconds, the only time this is really an issue is when so many creeps are stacked together that finding and actually being able to click target on the one doing the root becomes a problem, which is easily solved by a champ horn. Its certainly a good combo, but again, easily countered, unlike warden, cappy, hunter (this is the one you missed), and RK debuffs that are usable in any situation, with only the hunter one being gated behind morale.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyrion View Post


    This is probably the most prominent, considering that with the appropriate legacy it can be kept up indefinitely.

    That said I do think that reducing Incoming Healing is too rare an ability, which is partly why healing classes are so darn OP.
    As above, Hunter 4-set predator set has a debuff on merc shot.

    Edit since constrictions posted while i was:
    Quote Originally Posted by Untg99 View Post
    Not sure whether you may have considered this or not, but the facet of the warden has largely always been overpowered in most aspects.
    For example, say I had infinite power, during moria in shield line I could outheal up to 4.5 decent wargs with the use of kiting.
    In fact, during mirkwood, once I'd kitted out my proc heal build to the point I was absorbing some auto attacks, I survived being ganked by 8 wargs sequentially and managed to kill 6 of them with the help of a burglar while I self healed the whole time. Roughly two minute fight.
    I finished that fight with ~1.2k morale and less than 200 power, which back then was ~1/8 of my health and less than 10% of my power.

    DoT's weren't innately OP, but wardens had a hell of a lot more compact damage as part of their base gambits and auto attacks which made their DPS formidable to all but kitted out burglars, guardians and red line hunters.
    The mitigation gap to heavies was only 10%. Thats 10% damage we weren't taking back then that we do now, with ridiculously potented self heals at the same time.

    DPS was actually in a better spot for the reason that it wasn't DoT reliant, we had self heals of similar potency to live now, and passive mitigations that prevented a significant portion of damage.
    As a result we didn't need reflects, or the mitigation bonus of DC (We actually had kind of a force taunt back then!), nor did we have the need for NS as it works now.

    Most facets of the class in that state were innately above average or overpowered, but the balancing factor was the wardens power consumption. Which, was countered by morale surfing DbD.
    And that's where the entire classes balance lied, and thats also where the entire classes, and players potential lied in the execution of the mechanic. In the moors, if you could morale surf efficiently, you were a God however you decided to play. In raiding, Healers only ever had to watch for an unlucky burst hit from durchest. Other than that, wardens were top tier tanks (Despite any of the BS people were throwing around).

    Well, after axing morale surfing and screwing over our mitigations, they ruined the delicate balance. U6 brought us back to par, but kept our OP facets without any trade-offs to counter except the passivity that Orion was so strong about not dealing with. The counter to that (Because that passivity ruined our raiding ability) meant that the ultimate trade-off moved from the skill gate of morale surfing DbD to simply hitting DC and/or NS. Or in the case of the moors, stacking up to 400 damage reflects.
    It's not a wonder that so many people started playing wardens after this period.

    Only really properly understood recently why Graalx2 was so stuckup about making any significant change to the warden towards raiding. And my conclusion is that its because it would involve the delicacy of that skill gate.
    With what devs have shared about HD changes, we will likely never ever see the old warden again.
    I Moors'ed a little before RoI, but I started legitimately playing out there with the xpac (so before any of the major changes in U5 or U6). Power was a huge factor in the 3-4+ v 1 scenarios, but at least in early roi i doubt i ever had to morale surf a 2v1, and certainly not a 1v1. The change to the spear capstone nerfing WT, lack of scaling on crit strike, wages of fear, and onslaught plus increased dot durations and the 'bleed removal' bonuses have significantly shifted how warden dps is done since U6.

    HoTs were not as potent then compared to now.

    Really though, the class historically being OP is a terrible justification for it remaining so. Morale surfing with DbtD was a fantastic mechanic that i truly miss, but it only came into play in 3+ v 1 encounters or ones with a healer. Certainly that was better than now where it never comes into play, beyond just using DbtD occaisionally in long fights, but if being able to win a 3v1 compared to only a 2v1 is what seperates the men from the boys, I'd rather find a better way of doing things.
    Last edited by spelunker; Sep 03 2013 at 06:45 PM.
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  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Untg99 View Post
    40 Fundamentally different skills in function offers more flexibility in skill usage and customisability than 20 with several functions.
    that purely depends on what they do. 40 skills that do x aren't the same as 20 skills than do x but change Y and Z to do A or B.

    Quote Originally Posted by mrfigglesworth View Post
    Other than warden inc heals what else lowers incoming healing on freepside besides the captain routing cry debuff from armor?
    there are other armors and moor relics that do it, I remember burglar relic and hunter armor, can't remember others off the top of my head but I'm sure there are more.

    while I agree freeps have more, both sides have means of negating healing, with freeps having the loremaster advantage. But that's when you have a loremaster in your group.
    not enough though. I would of thought warg or reaver would be designed to counter self healers, minstrel mainly. but thats just not the case at all. self healing easily to max moral with no worries in 1v1's, even some 2v1's and 3v1's self healers out heal any dps put them, which just seems silly.

    I still stand by my assertion that freep cooldowns are the biggest unfair advantage for freep healers due to these things. It'd make fights more dynamic, exactly as you describe with the quick target switching action and knowing that eventually someone will run out of cds and death will occur.
    maybe. most creep classes don't have cooldowns like those. especially smaller cooldowns like champion bubbles and minstrels big heal thing + bubble + able to spam CoS. even the defiler cooldown has a trade off like directing damage to the defiler.

    but even then the cooldown monkey warg (ok there not really survival but running away cooldowns), weaver with a bunch in it's bag and a healer war-leader doesn't seem to match up.

    btw I didn't mention I don't mind that raid tactic of needing to constantly switch to catch out the healers. but it's not exactly even. creeps have to do it much better than freeps, even with them being more "glass canon" (which I don't really agree). 3 hunters quickly switching to a reaver will pop him down quicker than 5 black arrows on a hunter/champion/rk.
    Last edited by bohbashum; Sep 03 2013 at 06:42 PM.
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  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    As above, Hunter 4-set predator set has a debuff on merc shot.
    Did champs also have one on RS? Or was that removed?

    I'm sure minstrels have one with song of soothing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bohbashum View Post
    that purely depends on what they do. 40 skills that do x aren't the same as 20 skills than do x but change Y and Z to do A or B.
    However you do look at it, the class changes are going to be bad for the original design and fluency of the warden class, which was designed to be retroactively dynamic in it's general functions. Pigeonholing every roles function into a seperate trait line will be killer. It's pretty much the worst trade-off to have on a class like the warden.

  11. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    At least on E, less under-utilized than easily countered.
    Do tell......The only skill I know of that does not allow flayer wargs to root is sprint. EVERYTHING else is susceptible and it cannot be broken, as far as I know. What counter do you speak?

    And I didn't know hunters and rks had a incoming healing debuff. what's the %;, duration, and cd?

  12. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by bohbashum View Post
    ....creeps have to do it much better than freeps, even with them being more "glass canon" (which I don't really agree). 3 hunters quickly switching to a reaver will pop him down quicker than 5 black arrows on a hunter/champion/rk.
    If i'm in a raid on my champ, I'm probably going to trait cbr+all dps jewellery and possibly even armor. This means my tact mit is around 5-6k, and phys mit is prolly 10k. Not to mention my morale is around 10k. Now, if 5 blackarrows focus me, I'm gonna go down pretty quick but I have those durned OP bubbles to save me in time for the healers to start focusing me. So, again, it's mainly the cds freeps have that give us the big advantage in my opinion.

    In another scenario, I think 5 reavers would take down a mini without flop and FH just as fast as a 5 champs would take down a defiler. Again, cds are the difference.

  13. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrfigglesworth View Post
    If i'm in a raid on my champ, I'm probably going to trait cbr+all dps jewellery and possibly even armor. This means my tact mit is around 5-6k, and phys mit is prolly 10k. Not to mention my morale is around 10k. Now, if 5 blackarrows focus me, I'm gonna go down pretty quick but I have those durned OP bubbles to save me in time for the healers to start focusing me. So, again, it's mainly the cds freeps have that give us the big advantage in my opinion.

    In another scenario, I think 5 reavers would take down a mini without flop and FH just as fast as a 5 champs would take down a defiler. Again, cds are the difference.
    I think that does nicely point out the power warden is then when you don't even need cooldowns to survive 3v1's in Ez mode setup.

    thinking about it. minstrel could actually be balanced if it didn't have it's crazy "cooldown", or better put, burst survival in even dps spec. whats it got? CoS is pretty big, not a cooldown but it's a chunky heal on it's own. Coda of vigure? you can swap to quickly and get a big heal and instance cast bolster if you plan a little. a hobbit would have 2 play deads. that 1.4k bubble is maybe 10% minstrels moral but it is instant. also triumphant and fellowships if you traited. top it off, instant cast ballad thing (forgot name) so you can spam another coda+bolster super quick. oh, and call to greatness to spam CoS more ^_^

    defiler has... nothing like any of those tbh. they all have a downside except maybe fungle spores, but thats a hot.

    war-leader does have some nice ones though, but those cooldowns are longer than mini's.

    curious if any mini's actually spar with anything I mentioned before? I know one on my server that does and does *ok* in spars without any heals. my warden always got dominated anyway XD
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  14. #64
    The problem with wardens for me is assailment. That is the root cause of us being so OP and the reason there has been an influx of wardens in the moors.

    The stance has allowed several things to happen, firstly it has removed most of the need for skill from the class, before assailment kiting was an option, CC had an impact and movement played a big role, now none of these things are really having an impact on warden gameplay (except against spiders). Secondly there is now no escaping a warden, if you CC and try and move away you will suffer badly. Thirdly (and perhaps the biggest problem) wardens can trait reckless and still pump out excessive ranged damage.

    The solution for me is to (and hopefully this is happening in HD) nerf the base damage of assailment significantly (and I mean significantly, perhaps 60-70%). Then allow traiting into assailment to give large buffs to ranged damage to bring it into line with reckless BUT also tie melee dps nerfs into traiting into ranged damage. This way the ability to switch seamlessly between high melee and ranged damage would exist somewhat but wouldn't be so effective.

    Warden HoTs are also pretty OP so perhaps some nerfs to those when traited dps would be wise, so that even when switching to determination and heal spamming while traited red or yellow would have little benefit. Perhaps a base reduction of 30-40% in self healing. A determination damage nerf isn't really needed IMO because it is significantly worse than in dps traits.

    I reckon this would at least balance things and stop bad players dominating just due to the class. Raid baby wardens traiting ranged would be vulnerable to melee creeps, while melee wardens would no longer be able to simply spam ranged damage to win the majority of fights.

    Having said all that there is only one of the 'new' wardens on my server that I would expect to lose to more than 50% of the time on my rank 7 spider and that is only because they always use every store buff and spam store pots etc making them virtually immortal, not something to lose sleep over. Granted spiders allow seamless movement between melee and ranged and offer good warden counters, but actually the vast majority of creeps still don't really have a clue how to beat wardens, I guess playing one for years helps but they are NOT impossible to beat in the main, although granted the better ones are (there just aren't many around anymore, I know mine has been largely benched since assailment and the further revamp).


    (EDIT: One thing that needs changing in determination is DBtD, bring back morale surfing or just nerf it.
    Last edited by Bels_illuminati; Sep 04 2013 at 04:07 AM.
    [color=#DBA901]Lieutenant Belegardo the Veteran, Reaver-Foe, Stalker-Foe, Blackarrow-Foe Rank 10 Warden
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  15. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bels_illuminati View Post
    The problem with wardens for me is assailment. That is the root cause of us being so OP and the reason there has been an influx of wardens in the moors.
    Assailment was simply icing to the cake of the larger problem to do with the backing mechanics of the class.

    Wardens have aways been overpowered, but prior to U6, or, lets say prior to Rohan. Everything as a result of that expansion has laid waste to the warden class. Anyway, prior to Rohan, there was a very delicate trade-off of potential which stopped them from being Gods. That active counterplay got turned from strict gambit usage into clicky skills. That's pretty much why everyone and their mothers cousins second uncle has a warden.

    Summary of one of my last posts.

    Because this balance no longer exists with the warden, only classes that should beat it when it's not self healing are reavers who use their skills of unbelong (Wrath, impale) and weavers which are overstocked on practically everything.
    Or exploiters.

  16. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Untg99 View Post
    Assailment was simply icing to the cake of the larger problem to do with the backing mechanics of the class.

    Wardens have aways been overpowered, but prior to U6, or, lets say prior to Rohan. Everything as a result of that expansion has laid waste to the warden class. Anyway, prior to Rohan, there was a very delicate trade-off of potential which stopped them from being Gods. That active counterplay got turned from strict gambit usage into clicky skills. That's pretty much why everyone and their mothers cousins second uncle has a warden.

    Summary of one of my last posts.

    Because this balance no longer exists with the warden, only classes that should beat it when it's not self healing are reavers who use their skills of unbelong (Wrath, impale) and weavers which are overstocked on practically everything.
    Or exploiters.
    I disagree. Before assailment the only options for wardens realistically were self healing with awful, awful damage or damage with mediocre survivability and no escapes. Sure they were strong, even when we were 'broken' I found the class to be strong but fun. But at least we weren't pvp gods. Assailment has totally broken warden pvp, as in any MMO, one fundamental rule of pvp has to be no class that can do great damage from range while running around with no restrictions.

    RKs set the ball rolling with lightning spec, then came minis in war speech and now wardens. All three are fundamentally broken in this respect because like it or lump it, being able to run around and do max damage from range is not a healthy mechanic and certainly has no place in any game that is attempting skill based pvp.
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  17. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bels_illuminati View Post
    I disagree. Before assailment the only options for wardens realistically were self healing with awful, awful damage or damage with mediocre survivability and no escapes. Sure they were strong, even when we were 'broken' I found the class to be strong but fun. But at least we weren't pvp gods. Assailment has totally broken warden pvp, as in any MMO, one fundamental rule of pvp has to be no class that can do great damage from range while running around with no restrictions.

    RKs set the ball rolling with lightning spec, then came minis in war speech and now wardens. All three are fundamentally broken in this respect because like it or lump it, being able to run around and do max damage from range is not a healthy mechanic and certainly has no place in any game that is attempting skill based pvp.
    I was strictly talking 60-65 cap, not post that period at all. My mistake for implying otherwise. The awful awful damage you quote wasn't in the least terrible. It was ranging to be potent enough to act as a threat to anything before defiler heals. Hell, even healing in red line wasn't absolutely awful. It had a really significant diminishment, true, but that 'being ganked by 8 wargs' quote from one of my last posts was when I was traited red line. Proc build made it possible, but I'd be damned if the procs came close to the healing received from self heals.

    Shield wardens have always been invincible to the point of an averaged, balanced opposing group, assuming they were able to manage their power and any DS from reavers with suitable movement.
    Spear wardens were raw combatants in their ability to deal melee damage (Not through DoTs of course, it was more of base skillset), and their survival options weren't at all unfavourable.

    Do remember that BPE still worked like a charm back then in both builds, and in small skirmishes limited self healing on top of any proc mechanics were more than suitable to scrap more than decent survival in most situations. EoB and resolution have always been great survival tools, and against the average creep counterparts, juking(Or simply kiting) was a skill incredibly valued by wardens in all facets of play which even now quantifies survival in ridiculous odds.
    The common factor in any of those builds in any of those situations more times than not where the warden would die without success (In which success is characterized by whatever he was traiting) was as a result of having limited power. Other commodities would have come in the form of being completely zerged, CC chained beyond anyones ability to handle or simply not being able to get to any targets.

    As far as post-isengard, good golly, the wardens survivability versus creeps sucked ###. The change in mitigation focus, lack of scaled self heals plus the doubled mitigation gap to heavies blew the wardens survivability right out of the water. Spamming self heals against one decent reaver warranted a 50/50 chance of winning/losing on a string success after creep damage buff. The ability to BPE was gone, and proc builds were completely outscaled. Spear was the way to go, and that was still quite strong. Warden relied more on the players maneuverability than pretty much any other factor that was able to be used prior.
    It's for these reasons that I choose to exclude the 'broken' gap period of the warden class in my comparisons of class potential.

    In u6, on top of the clickertowinner skills (DC, NS) replacing the make-or-break morale surfing utility, Assailment simply rubbed it in that anyone could come and do #### on a warden to a formidable standard in any regard.
    Whereas before these changes, to do anything formidably, you actually had to be good at PvP and the class itself.

    Now, thats not to say that most of those scrubs don't get owned in PvP, because they sure as hell do, but it's the half capable ones that know a wits stick to switch stances to self heal after DC and spam EoB etc etc that are the biggest peeve of mine.



    TL;DR Not anyone could pull off ridiculous warden #### before U6, especially during moria/mirk. Perhaps even more especially in that 'broken' gap period in which nobody actually played wardens anyway. But now, everybody can do it.
    And thats a direct result of the skills like DC and NS, that close the gap between what a warden should have always maintained passively (in mits and defences) and actively through skillful play (Morale surfing, movement, gambit and stance rotations). Both of which don't, or almost don't comparatively exist now.
    Thats why I see assailment as the 'icing on the cake'. Which, I suppose being honest, is fortuitously not giving it enough credit.

    I do agree with you about the on the move damage options. IMO wardens never should have gotten assailment.
    Minstrels at least used to have the trade-off through limited WS heals. But well, that's gone now too.

    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    I Moors'ed a little before RoI, but I started legitimately playing out there with the xpac (so before any of the major changes in U5 or U6). Power was a huge factor in the 3-4+ v 1 scenarios, but at least in early roi i doubt i ever had to morale surf a 2v1, and certainly not a 1v1. The change to the spear capstone nerfing WT, lack of scaling on crit strike, wages of fear, and onslaught plus increased dot durations and the 'bleed removal' bonuses have significantly shifted how warden dps is done since U6.

    HoTs were not as potent then compared to now.

    Really though, the class historically being OP is a terrible justification for it remaining so. Morale surfing with DbtD was a fantastic mechanic that i truly miss, but it only came into play in 3+ v 1 encounters or ones with a healer. Certainly that was better than now where it never comes into play, beyond just using DbtD occaisionally in long fights, but if being able to win a 3v1 compared to only a 2v1 is what seperates the men from the boys, I'd rather find a better way of doing things.
    The HoT's themselves were not as potent back then in the same way that DoTs weren't. They didn't have to be. We had more defence options through a variety of different shield gambits, build options and passive mitigations which, despite audacity, are still somewhat significantly unaccounted for in the current moors. Just like with our damage options, it was more about base gambit damage than actual bleed strikes. In fact, the balance between DoTs and base damage, and Heals and defences was almost perfect back then.

    Morale surfing was the extreme make or break in 3+v1's and against some classes and class matchups. Weaver for example required top-notch morale surfing, or extended defiler fights in spear line. Not saying it was needed in every circumstance, but largely as a solo class, and skirmishing still being extremely viable during that time it was used quite a bit. Morale surfing itself wasn't what made the men, but it was commonly associated with the activities that did. Nothing itself has ever made the man out of a warden, except maybe intentionally limiting yourself post U6, or post proc-gear, as you would understand.

    The class has historically been overpowered, not just exclusively in the moors, its true. But around that era, it was done in an extremely controlled fashion. This control relied on the players ability to proactively deal with and execute a range of extremely selective functions, and in a variety of circumstantial situations. U6 changes kind of shattered that control through the reactivity of cooldowns, so now we are simply overstocked in most things. Which, in terms of making actual skillful plays, means we are extremely understocked in player ability to gauge ourselves.
    As a result of all of this, the ridiculous outcomes which were, and should always have been rare occurances as a result of skillful plays in limited circumstances now happen all the ####ing time from every warden scrub who sets foot in the moors. It's completely tarnished everything the warden was.

    Its these same scrubs that advocate the creep flavoured position of "I'm OP, nerf me!" without even knowing what the #### they're talking about.

    You're perspective and insight on the current dwelling of our class Desolates is literally going to be unique in and of itself from the period you joined the bandwagon. You'll probably be better than a lot of the older timers as a result of it, who, like me, are holding onto butthurt over the warden politics of Graalx2 getting fired and Orion and Deviled_Egg 'ripping away our hearts'. Although I'm sure that good ol' Delheru will still be striving in no 1, despite all his absences.
    Last edited by Untg99; Sep 04 2013 at 10:09 AM.

  18. #68
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    Only bad players are scared of their class getting nerfed. /thread
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  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by ContraMundum View Post
    Only bad players are scared of their class getting nerfed. /thread
    I'm glad that significant trade-offs are going to be put back in place. More than likely not going to be as seamless as it was, but thats not really a problem select wardens haven't had to deal with anyway.

    On the contrary, I'm not sure how my passive aggressiveness came across to you as fear.

  20. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by mrfigglesworth View Post
    Do tell......The only skill I know of that does not allow flayer wargs to root is sprint. EVERYTHING else is susceptible and it cannot be broken, as far as I know. What counter do you speak?

    And I didn't know hunters and rks had a incoming healing debuff. what's the %;, duration, and cd?
    Can anyone answer these questions? I'm curious if anyone knows another counter to flayer warg root as I've never seen one besides sprint.

    And also what are the other incoming healing debuffs for each class? The champ no longer has incoming healing debuff on armor, it was switched out of our fervor gear for another 4 set bonus.

    Hunters ?
    rks ?
    any others?

  21. #71
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    Killing the Warg would be one. Not exactly a challenge, considering they die when a freep so much as sneezes on them.
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  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrfigglesworth View Post
    Can anyone answer these questions? I'm curious if anyone knows another counter to flayer warg root as I've never seen one besides sprint.

    And also what are the other incoming healing debuffs for each class? The champ no longer has incoming healing debuff on armor, it was switched out of our fervor gear for another 4 set bonus.

    Hunters ?
    rks ?
    any others?
    Wardens? Obviously.
    Minstrels? - Song of soothing(?).

  23. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Giliodor View Post
    The Warden is a DoT class. It's 80% reliant on bleeds at least. I would never, ever, get above 1200 DPS in PvE wihout DoTs I'm on 3300 DPS with DoTs. No illusions about that.



    Of all classes, Wardens have the very least burst damage. This is in melee. In ranged stance, DoTs are no big deal
    I have to take issue with these points. In recklessness we are very reliant on DoTs yes, but on 75 dummies over 16 seconds (until they reset) it is possible to do OVER 5k dps in assailment even in red traits totally solo.

    Which leads on to the second point about no burst. I disagree entirely because of the possibilities in assailment. Once you're all buffed and have a battle prepped WoS and masteries off cd I fail to see how WoS>WoS>WoS>Wages from behind>SpSp>SpFi Sp FiFi>WoS>WoS (meaning two more WoS while only using the Sp builder once) is anything BUT burst, in fact it is up there with the best burst in the game and has very little cooldown. Considering in PvE WoS comfortably reaches 12-13k devs solo and over 15k in groups this has an incredible damage potential in a short space of time. If coordinated with Oathies.... dear lord
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  24. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bels_illuminati View Post
    I have to take issue with these points. In recklessness we are very reliant on DoTs yes, but on 75 dummies over 16 seconds (until they reset) it is possible to do OVER 5k dps in assailment even in red traits totally solo.

    Which leads on to the second point about no burst. I disagree entirely because of the possibilities in assailment. Once you're all buffed and have a battle prepped WoS and masteries off cd I fail to see how WoS>WoS>WoS>Wages from behind>SpSp>SpFi Sp FiFi>WoS>WoS (meaning two more WoS while only using the Sp builder once) is anything BUT burst, in fact it is up there with the best burst in the game and has very little cooldown. Considering in PvE WoS comfortably reaches 12-13k devs solo and over 15k in groups this has an incredible damage potential in a short space of time. If coordinated with Oathies.... dear lord
    Galtrev dummies are of little to no indication of PvP potential as the magnitude of critical chance tends to be higher.
    Try it on the medium or light dummy in GV.
    Given the allotted animation time, it's still a fairly lengthy period, and still very reliant on morbid crit chance when both compared to the skill synergies of other classes.

    Assailment burst can be deadly it's true, but I personally tend to see it as more of a clickers stance. My problem with it tends to be bias against it's simplicity (I still use it, don't get me wrong, I'd just never build for it).
    Also, building for assailment damage doesn't leave much room for dynamic combat, unless you gear swap.
    Last edited by Untg99; Sep 05 2013 at 06:50 PM.

  25. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by Untg99 View Post
    Wardens? Obviously.
    Minstrels? - Song of soothing(?).
    Only if you use the PvMP relics, thus nerfing both your healing and damage, and only for a truly negligible amount of -inc healing even then.
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