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  1. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyrion View Post
    Wardens do upfront damage too. They are not 100% reliant on bleeds.
    The Warden is a DoT class. It's 80% reliant on bleeds at least. I would never, ever, get above 1200 DPS in PvE wihout DoTs I'm on 3300 DPS with DoTs. No illusions about that.

    My point flew right over your head didn't it? Read over what I said again please.
    No, is my point flying over yours?

    And again.
    And again. In a Warden's PvP rotation rotation, there are 10-12 skills. 7 are DoTs. Go and figure.

    Now you're just not making sense. As I said above, Wardens are not utterly devoid of burst damage.
    Of all classes, Wardens have the very least burst damage. This is in melee. In ranged stance, DoTs are no big deal



    What in the flaming heck are you trying to say here? Since you didn't read my post correctly, I'll explain it again. Having long bleed durations, or doing lots of damage with them, is fine on their own. Having a couple, totally cool.

    It's when a class can have bleeds that do high damage, are unpottable, can have multiple ones ticking at the same time, AND have lengthy durations that they become a problem.

    Whether Wardens are a 'bleed class' or not, it's too much. If you're really trying to tell me that they need all four of these aspects in order to do decent DPS, I am going to call BS on that. Hard.
    And in what way can a DoT class not have more than 2 of these aspects, without getting behind on other DPS classes?

    Wardens are completely reliant on DoTs. With the new red capstone, there is no upfront damage except for 3 skills. DoTs are everything; of course they hit hard; of course they have a long duration; of course you can't pot them if a Warden's DPS completely relies on them.

    What's so insane about a Warden's DPS compared to a champ/hunter? No, not surviveability, just the DPS.
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  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    And I absolutely agree that long duration, powerful bleeds in a class that also has access to a fast swap stance that allows them access to long duration, powerful heals, allowing them to have their cake and eat it too, in maintaining solid offense and defense all at once. Hopefully this capacity gets significantly diminished in HD, but if DoTs get nerfed and upfront damage gets increased, creeps will be worse off from a damage perspective, and the class is going to be reduced to hunteresque skill useage.
    I agree. it adds more to moors having classes doing differant forms of dps too. you shouldn't really be fighting a bursty class the same as a dot class to a cooldown class. it adds a little more depth on how each works.

    for example, a dot class that can easily apply them but naturally doing the same dps as others. you shouldn't be running away from. fighting them and forcing them to do other skills so they can't keep them up as easy. running a away from a warden is very much that, suicide a lot of the time. where, if wardens will hopefully get a nurf to being so hybrid we've talk about, you actcually fighting the warden 1v1 might yeild a higher success rate.

    it changes with a dot class who takes a long time to build them up. you choose early on. fight or flight. if you start off fighting and run, he's got you down. if you run then fight, he's probaby built up his stuff now to down you. you'll find RK is very much like this and is balanced at times tbh. so many times on reaver in RoI I was able to pounce a RK quicker than he got me, and took him really off guard.

    I would go into more examples of dps, but the depth each type of damage adds to the game is good. most importantly, how an enemy can learn to use that to there advantage. instant cast dots doing 100% of the dps is kinda OP tbh. gambits don't take that long to build in reality. not to what some people think defiantly. around 50% bleeds 50% other sounds like a nice mix.

    there are obvious nurfs that should be put it, it's not about there numbers completely. just that they should be able to be removed like any other tbh. and maybe promote the warden to build bleeds up rather than able to put on top tier bleed almost instantly. so to make that time window needed to stick on dots just a little longer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nyrion View Post
    Whether Wardens are a 'bleed class' or not, it's too much. If you're really trying to tell me that they need all four of these aspects in order to do decent DPS, I am going to call BS on that. Hard.
    dots are one of the simplest forms to express "consistance damage dealing". consistance dps *should* be doing more damage to enemies than burst dps. it's in the name, it'd be silly if it wasn't.

    dots add a nice amount of depth, because they "over damage" people. this usally comes of a pointless in PvE because enemies die or reset the dots, so you might have a large chuck of dots completely wasted. but in PvP, like mentioned before, it's one of the good punishments so people DON'T run away.

    so in PvP, like other games, don't actually don't hit that much. it flips consistancy to burst dps in a sense because if dots hit as much as burst, you'd have players almost always dieing after a fight. so, dots shouldn't should be as high damaging as a burst dps...

    now were getting somewhere. how do you balance PvE dots to PvP dots? casting duration needed to apply them is a massive part. PvE lets players have a lot more planning to apply them easier but that 3s induction in PvP could be death. a quick cast of a dot shouldn't be as strong (durrr) but still show an element of consistency to show that over time, it'll do better damage than other skills.

    lotro doesn't have this as much. most classes just dabble in dots. the warden, lm and red RK are probably the closest we get. while yes, red RK does good damage, however in PvP, not many people use it because those long inductions can be fatal. lm is forced into them, but still, can do some nice burst too. warden, while being one of the big dotters, I would still say under 60% of there total dps comes from dots.

    so like I put before. unpottable is bad. are they are to be applied to quick? maybe. does it hit too much? no. in comparison to hunter or champ the dps is fair. the warden dps/dots on it's own is not too much.

    I also ignored talking about dots in raids too. burst > consistency in raids, simple as. I regularly feel more like a debuffing and annoying fly (intterut/fears/destracting/stuff) in raids because most of my dps is wasted in raids.

    just to add. the oppisite of dots is hots. in a sense, overhealing a character. I think in moors the dots over power the hots, but still, it's if not quicker for a defiler to pop on his hots than it is for a warden to pop on his dots. seen as warden is maybe 1/9th of the moors freep community and defilers more 1/6th (ok, not at all true, but in raw balancing it *should* be like that but it never is) then the defilers should be able to controll dots just fine. like I mentioned before though, it is weird how creeps classes don't have dedicated removal classes like hunter to poisen or lm to stuff or captain to fears. it would be a massive desearved buff for defiler to remove 2 types and maybe spider and wl to to be able to remove 1 each.
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  3. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    And I absolutely agree that long duration, powerful bleeds in a class that also has access to a fast swap stance that allows them access to long duration, powerful heals.
    In what magical setup does this occur? (oh wait, shield...) Better to define and specify the most likely setups of the Moors Warden than to make a broad statement about the capabilities:

    1. Shield specced, should be disabled or toned down for the ettenmoors. Could be geared glass cannon. This honestly is the more irritating build to encounter and gets airstrikes called down on solo wardens regardless of if they fall into this category or not. Minimum of 16s bleed, pulse every 4 seconds, maximum of 32s if PvE +2 pulse and Force of Personality are mixed in. HoT's 30 seconds long (with PvE tanking armor), pulses every 3 seconds. Eru help creeps if Wardens lose Defiant Challenge, the 4-shield critical immunity and are buffed in other areas to maintian parity with Guardians in PvE raids; glass cannon survivability would still be insane.
    2. Spear specced. Geared glass cannon around maximizing DoTs. Mixes in PvE armor to maximize DoT's to hit harder or longer. Either 32s (assuming Spear traited with Force of Personality slotted) up to 40 seconds with a bleed once every 4 seconds. Heals of 6 seconds with pulse at 3s base, 12s long if +2 pulse Perseverance (have to sacrifice Know Your Enemy and 18s if PvE Hytboldt shield armoring.
    3. Fist? AoE Fear that is more of an annoyance/disruptive than a threat. Longer lasting bleed at up to 44s (48s on Improved Javelin Toss LOL). Lower damage than Spear even if at range.

    The common theme is that it is certain cooldowns/shield traits that are too powerful in the Ettenmoors and that too much of the Warden's survivability/damage is tied to the armorset bonuses which override the "Penalties" that the traitlines are meant to impose.

    My own take on what could be changed:
    1. Change/remove the +HoT/DoT bonuses from 2 deep in respective armors and move them to 4 deep armor bonus or to appropriate traitlines. Armor mix-match swapping and hybrid builds becomes more difficult.
    2. Make Spear line the bleed line focused in melee and with weaker DoT's at range. Make Fist the upfront spike damage ranged line, weak at melee.
    2a. Alternative: Spear line focused on damage, Fist for support/debuffs/CC.
    3. Don't really know what the Melkor to do with Shield, it's the Oliphaunt in the room. PvMP debuff of -10% damage done per Shield trait slotted?
    4. Defiant Challenge made stance specific. If the Warden wants to engage -incoming damage they must be in Determination. If they want Reflection they need to be in Recklessness. AoE fear if in Assailment. If interrupted no skill activation, no buff gained, Do Not Pass Go, Do Not Reset Cooldown.
    4a. Alternatively give -50% outgoing damage whille -90% incoming damage buff active. If interrupted skill does not go on cooldown.
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  4. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by WhimsicalPacifist View Post
    In what magical setup does this occur? (oh wait, shield...) Better to define and specify the most likely setups of the Moors Warden than to make a broad statement about the capabilities:

    1. Shield specced, should be disabled or toned down for the ettenmoors. Could be geared glass cannon. This honestly is the more irritating build to encounter and gets airstrikes called down on solo wardens regardless of if they fall into this category or not. Minimum of 16s bleed, pulse every 4 seconds, maximum of 32s if PvE +2 pulse and Force of Personality are mixed in. HoT's 30 seconds long (with PvE tanking armor), pulses every 3 seconds. Eru help creeps if Wardens lose Defiant Challenge, the 4-shield critical immunity and are buffed in other areas to maintian parity with Guardians in PvE raids; glass cannon survivability would still be insane.
    2. Spear specced. Geared glass cannon around maximizing DoTs. Mixes in PvE armor to maximize DoT's to hit harder or longer. Either 32s (assuming Spear traited with Force of Personality slotted) up to 40 seconds with a bleed once every 4 seconds. Heals of 6 seconds with pulse at 3s base, 12s long if +2 pulse Perseverance (have to sacrifice Know Your Enemy and 18s if PvE Hytboldt shield armoring.
    3. Fist? AoE Fear that is more of an annoyance/disruptive than a threat. Longer lasting bleed at up to 44s (48s on Improved Javelin Toss LOL). Lower damage than Spear even if at range.

    The common theme is that it is certain cooldowns/shield traits that are too powerful in the Ettenmoors and that too much of the Warden's survivability/damage is tied to the armorset bonuses which override the "Penalties" that the traitlines are meant to impose.

    My own take on what could be changed:
    1. Change/remove the +HoT/DoT bonuses from 2 deep in respective armors and move them to 4 deep armor bonus or to appropriate traitlines. Armor mix-match swapping and hybrid builds becomes more difficult.
    2. Make Spear line the bleed line focused in melee and with weaker DoT's at range. Make Fist the upfront spike damage ranged line, weak at melee.
    2a. Alternative: Spear line focused on damage, Fist for support/debuffs/CC.
    3. Don't really know what the Melkor to do with Shield, it's the Oliphaunt in the room. PvMP debuff of -10% damage done per Shield trait slotted?
    4. Defiant Challenge made stance specific. If the Warden wants to engage -incoming damage they must be in Determination. If they want Reflection they need to be in Recklessness. AoE fear if in Assailment. If interrupted no skill activation, no buff gained, Do Not Pass Go, Do Not Reset Cooldown.
    4a. Alternatively give -50% outgoing damage whille -90% incoming damage buff active. If interrupted skill does not go on cooldown.
    yup, i've made the long posts of the specifics of wardens before, i figured i'd cut to the highlight reel (semi-crit immunity is huge, but not as important as those HoTs).

    DC needs to be stance specific, like how pledge is, you're on the right track with that, but if the right thing is done in that regard, they just need to get the animation and cooldown sorted right. stun/fear before the effect starts, no effect, no cooldown, stun/fear after the effect takes place, effect stands, cooldown starts, just make it work how every other skill in the game works. 15s for the mits bonus is more than sufficient for pvp AND PvE (stop using it as a crutch, all you flavor of the month warden tanks).

    Heals in the moors are a problem, getting rid of audacities inc damage reduction (and compensating via morale increases) would solve the stupidity of overpowered healing and shield wardens in one move.

    Word on the street is that at least armour will locked once combat starts when HD launches, so the days of swapping bonuses, and swapping to pve gear to dps, and back to aud when you start taking hits may well be numbered.
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  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    Heals in the moors are a problem, getting rid of audacities inc damage reduction (and compensating via morale increases) would solve the stupidity of overpowered healing and shield wardens in one move.
    just generally heals yes, I agree.

    thats also a brilliant solution than nurfing heals on freeps too. didn't think of that XD

    sheild wardens can do maybe ~70% of a red/yellow warden. which is stupid. I think the base numbers of skills should be reduced and the bonuses on lines bigger. it's pretty silly you have warden able to have cake and eat it. yet the guardian has to choose bad dps or bad (more "balanced" tbh) survival. sheild warden shouldn't be hitting over 1k dps tbh. and shouldn't be able to trait one into the red line and still have great long dots.

    Word on the street is that at least armour will locked once combat starts when HD launches, so the days of swapping bonuses, and swapping to pve gear to dps, and back to aud when you start taking hits may well be numbered.
    I hope this is true. and I really wouldn't be surprised about it too.
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  6. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    Word on the street is that at least armour will locked once combat starts when HD launches, so the days of swapping bonuses, and swapping to pve gear to dps, and back to aud when you start taking hits may well be numbered.
    Armor locking in PvMP is fine and actually beneficial to the game. How many times in PvE have you swapped gear in to tailor to a particular encounter? Going from high moral as a buffer or to high evasion and self healing in the same fight. That is with the same trait build and the same role. Guess how boring fights that require multiple tanks initially but then only a single tank later are going to be. "Whoops, sorry guys we really don't need multiple tanks on this boss. Could we reset so the Warden can swap whatever DPS gear they have in and switch their traitline to Spear?"
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  7. #32
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  8. #33
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    Speaking from a 1v1/solo perspective.

    All this warden bleed blah blah, when only crits will ever hit over 800 damage on creeps with audacity.

    The real problem is warden REFLECTS! (ikr :0) Wardens can reflect 420 damage per hit (if i didnt forget any), and 338 nonstop (82 comes from DC which has a cd).

    But back to the point my warg kbs will really suffer if you get rid of my dots :'(.
    retired warden mouse clicker turtlemoss, countless storebought creeps

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Turtly View Post
    Speaking from a 1v1/solo perspective.

    All this warden bleed blah blah, when only crits will ever hit over 800 damage on creeps with audacity.

    The real problem is warden REFLECTS! (ikr :0) Wardens can reflect 420 damage per hit (if i didnt forget any), and 338 nonstop (82 comes from DC which has a cd).

    But back to the point my warg kbs will really suffer if you get rid of my dots :'(.
    In 1v1 wardens were always pretty much the strongest class. They could win dps race fights, due to very good avoidances, mits and bleeds, they could win on ranged fights due to being melee-ranged hybrid, and they could win on super long fights due to power restore (that was back in SoM, when power actually stood for something...)

    Also DC is a joke in 1v1 fights. If a warden uses it, it means he has no idea what he is doing, and he tries to make up for his lack of skill. (which he shouldn't be able to do either...)
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  10. #35
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    Creep Logic! :

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  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yelloweyedemon View Post
    snip
    Er, there's been plenty of complaints about RK healing. You see more about Warden DOTs because you see more about Wardens in general(and rightly so).

    Which makes your flamebait post also redundant.

  12. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by WhimsicalPacifist View Post
    Armor locking in PvMP is fine and actually beneficial to the game. How many times in PvE have you swapped gear in to tailor to a particular encounter? Going from high moral as a buffer or to high evasion and self healing in the same fight. That is with the same trait build and the same role. Guess how boring fights that require multiple tanks initially but then only a single tank later are going to be. "Whoops, sorry guys we really don't need multiple tanks on this boss. Could we reset so the Warden can swap whatever DPS gear they have in and switch their traitline to Spear?"
    I'm still on the fence about this whole issue. I don't see this as any more or less valid a problem in PvE compared to PvP, however. When PvE instances are designed, it isn't tuned with the expectation of gearswapping, similarly, when the Devs make their expansion-long Moors update over coffee at lunch one day it isn't with gearswapping in mind. To be honest, I'd rather both PvE mobs and Creeps were tuned to a difficulty level where at least some LI/gear swapping was expected. In reality this could never happen as the difficulty level of the game would increase to a level unpalatable for most players.
    Quote Originally Posted by Turtly View Post
    All this warden bleed blah blah, when only crits will ever hit over 800 damage on creeps with audacity.
    2x Spear Lord, 2x Hytbolt Spear, 2x Aithlen
    Quote Originally Posted by Yelloweyedemon View Post
    In 1v1 wardens were always pretty much the strongest class. They could win dps race fights, due to very good avoidances, mits and bleeds, they could win on ranged fights due to being melee-ranged hybrid, and they could win on super long fights due to power restore (that was back in SoM, when power actually stood for something...)

    Also DC is a joke in 1v1 fights. If a warden uses it, it means he has no idea what he is doing, and he tries to make up for his lack of skill. (which he shouldn't be able to do either...)
    I'm generally an outlier compared to many of the long-time wardens still around in that i think for the most part, our U6 revamp added complexity and challenge to the class, rather than 'dumbed down' the class. Unfortunately most of this has been hidden behind how overtuned parts of the class were made (DC, self-heals, shield-line crit immunity, EoB, primarily). That being said, if a Dev were to return the old DbtD to us, they could pretty much get away with murder in my eyes. Its hard to express how much i miss morale surfing and all the other nuances that came with the old gating mechanic.
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  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyrion View Post
    On the subject of bleeds:


    • High damage
    • Long duration
    • Multiple stacks
    • Unpottable


    It's okay for a class' bleeds to have a couple of these things, but all of them at once is just wrong. With the possible exception of Fire RKs, no other class can claim to have access to every one of these points.
    ^This.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yelloweyedemon View Post
    Creep Logic! :

    Freep Logic: See someone complaining about my classes's faults...lets direct them to another classes's faults.
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  14. #39
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    all they need to do is disable the stackable bleed % from Hytbold making it 25% only instead of 50% from the moors set and hytbold and wardens wouldn't be complained about as much, that and they defenitly need to lower the healing bursts on freep side plain and simple a solo minstrel shouldn't be able to heal out of 2 devastating strikes let alone one!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dethforge View Post
    all they need to do is disable the stackable bleed % from Hytbold making it 25% only instead of 50% from the moors set and hytbold and wardens wouldn't be complained about as much, that and they defenitly need to lower the healing bursts on freep side plain and simple a solo minstrel shouldn't be able to heal out of 2 devastating strikes let alone one!
    remove gear swapping in-combat. why should we have it in the first place?

    freep healing in general is OP in the moors. I like what spunk said, replace the audacity mitigation buff with a larger moral pool, it increases the need for big heals and lets us see truely what a creep can hit. making the ratio between heals needed and dps taken more favoured to dps taken.
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  16. #41
    to reply to the healing situation in the moors....

    I totally agree that both sides either
    1. need better options to negate healing (more classes with -inc healing stuff) or
    2. need a nerf in healing


    If we go with #1, please give more classes the option to negate healing but not be able to spam that. A good example is the captains armor set that reduces incoming healing by -35% when using routing cry (a very under-utilized bonus imo), but since routing cry is on a 35-45 sec cooldown, it has to be used tactically with coordination and focus fire. If every class had the ability to lower incoming healing between 10 and 50 percent but with cooldowns that fit the strength of the debuff, it would increase freep and creep coordination.

    If we go with #2, I would suggest cutting both freep and creep healing down by 25% in the moors, and give defilers and warleaders stronger cooldowns, since the biggest lopsided difference that gives freep healers an edge are skills like fellowships heart, wondrous foreshadowing, and group massive bubbles.

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrfigglesworth View Post
    I totally agree that both sides either
    1. need better options to negate healing (more classes with -inc healing stuff) or
    2. need a nerf in healing
    freeps have enough -inc healing debuffs going around.

    they also have more intterupts and stuns going around.

    the only reliable -inc healing nurf is from reaver which I always thought was ment to be a counter to healers, but even thats at >50% moral and doesn't last anyway near as long as other freep classes like... OP warden -_-

    again, spunkler suggestion was epic for freep audacity. creep healing is ok balanced tbh. freep healing is insanely high compared to them. 2k+ hps is not at all balanced... seems like the only way you get kills at times is by swapping rat target quick enough so the healers don't keep up. which, does add some fun to moors. but it makes stacking healers the Ez mode to just rolf stomp people. especially captain that can seemingly pop out a lot while dpsing like a war-leader by 5x better.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Selebrimbor View Post
    Freep Logic: See someone complaining about my classes's faults...lets direct them to another classes's faults.
    I'm just saying that there are much more important things to focus on... Lets see... On the one hand, we have one out of two healing freep classes being able to outheal 10 creeps no matter the class combo/ranks, and in some ocassions keep some of his allies alive as well. On the other hand we have a class with ###### burst damage, but high dots... The only problem I see is some wargs complaining because they can't stealth in combat and run away properly.

    Yeah, lets flame wardens! They are the real problem!

    Quote Originally Posted by bohbashum View Post
    freep healing in general is OP in the moors. I like what spunk said, replace the audacity mitigation buff with a larger moral pool, it increases the need for big heals and lets us see truely what a creep can hit. making the ratio between heals needed and dps taken more favoured to dps taken.
    Nothing is going to change as long as this "logic" 'high morale VS high damage & mits' stay. I never actually understood why they felt the need to change it in the first place when RoI released. It is a highly problematic system, and almost impossible to ballance. Both sides should be at same morale (ish) and same damage. (Like it was untill SoM)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yelloweyedemon View Post
    Nothing is going to change as long as this "logic" 'high morale VS high damage & mits' stay. I never actually understood why they felt the need to change it in the first place when RoI released. It is a highly problematic system, and almost impossible to ballance. Both sides should be at same morale (ish) and same damage. (Like it was untill SoM)
    I'll explain the reasoning behind it better.

    example 1:
    freep has 10k moral -> gets hit by 1.3k -> audacity reduces that to 1k -> freep needs 1k heal to be back to max moral.

    it takes in total 10 hits to kill the freep

    example 2:
    freep has 13k moral -> gets hit by 1.3k -> no reduction -> freep needs 1.3k heal to get back to max moral.

    it still takes 10 hits to kill the freep

    increasing moral doesn't exactly increase suvival, you need the heals to be increased too. it's ironic creeps have the high moral and low heals, yet freeps have the low moral and high heals. it should really be the other way round tbh. increasing freep moral by 30% is kinda the same as increasing mits by 30%, still same amount of hits to kill you over time. have the high moral low healing low mits creeps audacity increase mits and inc healing, and the low moral high healing high mits freeps increase moral pools. then you do infact have a better balanced system.

    I think the only guys who would serisouly lose out on this are classes that don't self heal in the first place. hunter/guardian maybe. while I think guardian needs some love in moors tbh, hunter is a serious glass canon these days and people seem to enjoy that. with blood arrow taking off a % though I think hunter might need a little love too though.

    I'm also a firm believer that freeps don't need the -power costs now. it caused many freep classes to just never, ever run out of power. even if a creep class is trying there best to take it down, it's not. audacity doesn't really need that element tbh, or at least, not that strong.

    but I do agree. removing the stat caps hasn't exactly been good for the game. the holy trinity has been too good recently and I hope to see this changed in the class updates. HD has the first big hint of them trying to correct that though, so I hope I'm correct with the class revamps.

    EDIT: creeps get inc healing on BFP? mistake there sorry. meh same thing in a sence :P
    Last edited by bohbashum; Sep 02 2013 at 11:11 PM.
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  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    The more I think about the complaints about warden DoTs, the less inclined I am to agree with people upset about them.
    Most complaints about any class are from people who are ridiculously butthurt over being owned by said class.
    Some of it is justified, but there's too many people (including wardens themselves) who seem to know exactly how it works and what needs to be done to fix it.

    Excuse that sarcasm, but simply pointing out that something is wrong and then giving a sweeping fix that you're not going to seriously consider the overall effect of is plain idiocy and attention seeking.
    And yeah, even I've been guilty of that.

    Most proclaimating wardens (Or maybe this is just a rant to idiot creeps) are agreeing that our self heals and bleeds and DC and morale leeches are too OP, but they're all saying that the way to fix every single one of them is just to reduce all of their overall potency.
    If you want that. If you really really want that, you can enjoy your class that does absolutely no damage and has absolutely no survivability.
    Because by jumping on the creep QQ bandwagon thats exactly what most of you are advocating.

    It's really funny because the people who actually have something valuable to put forward (So, for example, definitely not most wardens about moors wardening) are called trolls among other things.
    This isn't warden specific either.

    The wardens probably going to be turned upside down with helms deep anyway. You can bet you're ### off with the lack of hybrid trait builds that there's going to be valuable trade-offs.
    Besides, I'd really like to continue talking about how over the top the weaver is rather than the warden. Nobody seems to like giving that any attention when there's far more of a ridiculous array in the weavers hands than almost(?) any class in the moors
    Last edited by Untg99; Sep 03 2013 at 04:24 AM.

  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyrion View Post
    [COLOR=#ffffff]

    Wardens do upfront damage too. They are not 100% reliant on bleeds.
    Now you're just not making sense. As I said above, Wardens are not utterly devoid of burst damage.
    Some of us aren't really inclined to want to have Assailment stance strapped to our ###, especially when it's so un-uniformed to the classes specifications itself. Other than ranged wall of steel crits, a wardens burst damage will lie utterly in CS > Ambush, CS > WT > WoF. This is implying crits with the appropriate legacies. Which by the way is the biggest waste of time due to its situational use, considering the art of solo skirmishing is pretty much dead beyond tagging group fights and being ganked by small groups. Not to mention, wardens triumph can go to rest if it weren't for a sizeable buff duration/inc healing debuff proc with what they did to the red capstone.
    Other than that, wardens melee 'burst damage' lies with dun dun dunnnnnn, Power attack line tier ups(And crits), which just so happens to be where majority of our bleed damage (and damage in general) lies. To nerf bleeds and not do anything else means to hand wardens a wet strand of string. Same is said for self heals, DC and the like.


    Since the last batch of creep revamps, the wardens U6 directiveness has been on a decline. I still maintain U6 dummied the class as a whole, despite unlocking some new means of play. The core of the class is simply not as fluently dynamic as it once was, it's become too easy and straight forward and thats what makes it a hard class to play well. There's little means of separating the good from the great, and there's little means of actual skill progression. It makes a horribly stale environment to try unorthodox things and maintain your level of proficiency.
    The TL;DR of this part is - I miss morale surfing and I'm partially upset that its never going to come back.

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Untg99 View Post
    Nobody seems to like giving that any attention when there's far more of a ridiculous array in the weavers hands than almost(?) any class in the moors
    not sure if joke or serious...

    tbh. I like creeps as a whole being OP. freeps generally have a higher skill ceiling, more options of gear, more trait options, better CC/debuffs in general. so when creeps dominate, freeps at least know how to get better. when a creeps getting dominated, it's not much to do other than hope that it's easier when you rank up.

    look back a second. was action better before U10 or after? be honest now. were there more people in moors?

    on my server, when creeps were OP, the action was much better. it wasn't about asking people to log in, but to make sure people knew where raids where so solo'ers didn't get zerged XD
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  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by bohbashum View Post
    not sure if joke or serious...

    tbh. I like creeps as a whole being OP. freeps generally have a higher skill ceiling, more options of gear, more trait options, better CC/debuffs in general. so when creeps dominate, freeps at least know how to get better. when a creeps getting dominated, it's not much to do other than hope that it's easier when you rank up.

    look back a second. was action better before U10 or after? be honest now. were there more people in moors?

    on my server, when creeps were OP, the action was much better. it wasn't about asking people to log in, but to make sure people knew where raids where so solo'ers didn't get zerged XD
    In asking if I'm serious, I really do have to ask if you are. The breadth of the weaver handbag contains the most bread and butter utilities with the least tradeoffs compared with any other class in the moors.

    With the entire setup of PvP, in U10 there might have been more creep play in the moors, but the quality of play during that period, especially by creeps, was the worst I've experienced in absolute years in this game.


    The higher skill ceiling is going to die with every class in helms deep. Transcript says their aim for freep classes was getting a max of ~20 skills. Right now, as a faction freeps have better access to CC utilities, but it's usefulness is far more sporadic compared to the tight-knit crowd control options available to each individual creep class. That is, it's far easier to maintain optimal CC usage on creepside because it is way more consolidated, even though the faction might have less access to it. With the way DR is, that's not a bad thing at all.
    The only thing getting in the way of this is SOPR, which, by the sounds of class changes in general, may be going to get fundamentally changed as a skill anyway.

  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Untg99 View Post
    With the entire setup of PvP, in U10 there might have been more creep play in the moors, but the quality of play during that period, especially by creeps, was the worst I've experienced in absolute years in this game.
    it was still better action than now tbh.

    on evernight we started to get better to counter the creep zergs and create our own, the RvR before U10 was brilliant on my server tbh. the ganking at GV was bad, but nothing at all like grams when the server seems dead on a saturday night...


    The higher skill ceiling is going to die with every class in helms deep. Transcript says their aim for freep classes was getting a max of ~20 skills.
    number of skills =/= choices made

    that 20 is also rotational/mechanical/slight cooldown/high cooldown skills. not skills like stances/ports and slightly more fluffy. 20 is actually better than some classes have now...

    it's far easier to maintain optimal CC usage on creepside because it is way more consolidated, even though the faction might have less access to it.
    good point actually, never thought of that.

    The only thing getting in the way of this is SOPR, which, by the sounds of class changes in general, may be going to get fundamentally changed as a skill anyway.
    I hope so too.
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  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yelloweyedemon View Post
    I'm just saying that there are much more important things to focus on... Lets see... On the one hand, we have one out of two healing freep classes being able to outheal 10 creeps no matter the class combo/ranks, and in some ocassions keep some of his allies alive as well. On the other hand we have a class with ###### burst damage, but high dots... The only problem I see is some wargs complaining because they can't stealth in combat and run away properly.

    Yeah, lets flame wardens! They are the real problem!
    If one RK can outheal 10 creeps, the creeps don't know what focus fire is...just saying. Wardens can tank at least 6 creeps for a good amount of time while bleeding one of them to death and then moving on to the next one...my real problem with them is their survivability PLUS their bleeds. In addition, if you're out solo, you might as well not even attempt to fight a warden...especially a heal spamming one.

    My point basically is, the class is ridiculously overpowered. Also, I don't know if that warg comment was meant for me or not, but I'll have you know I use HiPS and Sprint offensively. I'd rather die with my fellow creeps than be called a coward.

    Both sides should be at same morale (ish) and same damage. (Like it was untill SoM)
    Agreed.
    I've been at the mercy of men just following orders. Never again.

 

 
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