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  1. #101
    Quote Originally Posted by Olfaran View Post
    Duels/small groups/warg packs/ranged-heavy raids. Because there is time and place for all of those.
    1. No spam healing in duels 2. Always take a Reaver 3. Puddle, Stun, have fun dying 4. What?...

  2. #102
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Posts
    65
    Quote Originally Posted by Giliodor View Post
    1. No spam healing in duels
    Crutch.
    2. Always take a Reaver
    What if no decent reaver available?
    3. Puddle, Stun, have fun dying
    Oh, you`re so funny.
    4. What?...
    Dat.

    Basically, your position is "1 class with 1 ability to counter healing is enough, and if it isn`t working - it`s problem with whatever, but definitely not with only 1 class being able to counter healing more or less effectively".
    Last edited by Olfaran; Oct 08 2013 at 06:23 AM.
    Don't join dangerous cults: Practice safe sects!

  3. #103
    I see your point, but fixing the problem by modifying it won't work. You need to fix the essence of the problem; the potence of the healing.

  4. #104
    Quote Originally Posted by Giliodor View Post
    Wardens don't have any burst; they have to build gambits. Gambit builders/masteries consume time. Time in which other classes can continue to DPS/"Burst". Then they rely on DoTs, too. Kind of funy anyone even tried to mention burst DPS for Wardens.
    Well, since reavers have to stack dots to get good damage from impale, it's not burst. LOL...burst that requires prep is still burst.

    Also, I'm surprised no-one mentioned target forward healing. In RvR in Brandywine TFH is a central issue, since we find our target is stacked with RK hots a second after it's targeted. IMO TFH should be completely disabled in the moors.

  5. #105
    Quote Originally Posted by Birdflies View Post
    Well, since reavers have to stack dots to get good damage from impale, it's not burst. LOL...burst that requires prep is still burst.
    What silly kind of comment is this... Reavers rely on DoT's for Impale, but Wardens only have DoT's... It's seriously... Just what? "reavers have to stack dots to get good damage from impale". Yeah, so? Impale hits for 4-5k, my friend. Name me one Warden skill that does...
    Oh snap.

  6. #106
    Quote Originally Posted by Giliodor View Post
    What silly kind of comment is this... Reavers rely on DoT's for Impale, but Wardens only have DoT's... It's seriously... Just what? "reavers have to stack dots to get good damage from impale". Yeah, so? Impale hits for 4-5k, my friend. Name me one Warden skill that does...
    Oh snap.
    Ranged Wall of Steel.
    Positional Wages of Fear (with Legacy)

  7. #107
    Quote Originally Posted by Giliodor View Post
    What silly kind of comment is this... Reavers rely on DoT's for Impale, but Wardens only have DoT's... It's seriously... Just what? "reavers have to stack dots to get good damage from impale". Yeah, so? Impale hits for 4-5k, my friend. Name me one Warden skill that does...
    Oh snap.
    A warden has already replied to your question, and I'm sure he's way better suited to do that than I am. However I do want to make some things clear.

    I never made any comparisons between warden and reaver DPS (I definitely don't know enough about the warden to do this). My comment was pointed towards making a conceptual correction about what burst DPS means. I consider burst DPS to mean "a lot of damage done in little time". That damage may not be available off the bat, at the beggining of the fight. It may not be available until some preparation is made. Sometimes, you might not even be in control of all the factors that make it available. It's still burst DPS.

    In a previous comment you pointed out that wardens had to build gambits before they could burst, therefore it wasn't burst. I was addressing this misconception.

    If you want to challenge my definition of burst dps, please do. If you want to come up with some other reply, probably only vaguely related to my comment, don't.

  8. #108
    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    Ranged Wall of Steel.
    Positional Wages of Fear (with Legacy)
    Look at an earlier post of mine where I say in short:
    Melee = bleeds (which is what this thread is about)
    Ranged = burst
    Burst =/= bleeds (this thread).

    Then: I've said several times ranged wardens can do burst DPS. So yeah... State your criteria. I can't see what Ranged WoS has got to do with this thread.
    Not sure what you're trying to say, but melee Wardens have no burst, and ranged Wardens have no (or barely) bleeds.

  9. #109
    Quote Originally Posted by Giliodor View Post
    Look at an earlier post of mine where I say in short:
    Melee = bleeds (which is what this thread is about)
    Ranged = burst
    Burst =/= bleeds (this thread).

    Then: I've said several times ranged wardens can do burst DPS. So yeah... State your criteria. I can't see what Ranged WoS has got to do with this thread.
    Not sure what you're trying to say, but melee Wardens have no burst, and ranged Wardens have no (or barely) bleeds.
    I don't use the legacy since I don't use swap LIs (or combat swap armour bonuses), but I land a positional Wages of Fear in just about any melee encounter I have that lasts long enough to bother (so against a decent reaver or WL, primarily.

  10. #110
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    23
    I have no problem killing wardens on my BA, I keep them switching between assailment and determination or recklessness. I do this because I know that I would hate fighting an opponent that would alter between coming in to close and then slow or stun me to move at range and keep me switching stances. Sure they are still tough as nails to fight but generally I can beat them. With that being said I would be terribly depressed if you nerfed my Warden I think the Freep classes are perfectly fine especially for pve outside the moors. Just give the creeps a little buff, don't ruin the pve in Middle Earth because the Moors is unbalanced.

  11. #111
    Quote Originally Posted by andyballs View Post
    I have no problem killing wardens on my BA, I keep them switching between assailment and determination or recklessness. I do this because I know that I would hate fighting an opponent that would alter between coming in to close and then slow or stun me to move at range and keep me switching stances. Sure they are still tough as nails to fight but generally I can beat them. With that being said I would be terribly depressed if you nerfed my Warden I think the Freep classes are perfectly fine especially for pve outside the moors. Just give the creeps a little buff, don't ruin the pve in Middle Earth because the Moors is unbalanced.
    A Warden should be able to beat a BA staying in assailment while melee the whole time. Weavers are the only class that can really be successful forcing stance swaps while solo, that I've seen.

  12. #112
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    23
    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    A Warden should be able to beat a BA staying in assailment while melee the whole time. Weavers are the only class that can really be successful forcing stance swaps while solo, that I've seen.
    Its tough but doable at least on my server, we don't have very many wardens. The highest rank Warden I've seen is rank 10, while my BA is rank 7. I cant kill the rank 10 though, he is a tough one.

  13. #113
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    956
    It occurs that the problem isn't really warden hots or dots, it's warden hots AND dots. I cannot think of another class that can continue to heal while dealing a full damage rotation or vice versa. RKs are gated by attunement and cappies can put out heals but not at the same potency.

    I wouldn't mind testing stance dependent over time effects; dots wiping on switching to determination and hots wiping outside of determination. This would maintain the value of stance dancing while eliminating the potency of one line upon swapping. If I recall, hots and dots tic every four seconds while stance CD is five.

    Alternatively, I would even get behind negative effects tied to gambits in certain stances. As a rough idea, we could implement a negative incoming healing effect with higher tier bleeds and a negative outgoing damage buff with hots. I believe both solutions would allow a warden to still function as a tank in the PvE world, reduce our overall potency in the moors, and in the long run raise the skill ceiling. Stance dancing would still be viable but it would need a certain degree of foresigh.

    Theory crafting aside, this is a futile thread. Wardens are working as intended, and I believe appropriately balanced as far as freeps go (I still maintain that creeps need development on the whole) when you take into consideration that the moors is by design focused on group versus group encounters. As a solo player, I long ago came to terms with the fact that devs do not and should not care how any particular class performs outside of the intended group versus group setting. Furthermore, I can see little reason now and certainly no reason if creeps and freeps ever reach any semblance of parity why a group looking to be competitive should choose a warden over any other class aside from pulling and babysitting keep mobs.

  14. #114
    Quote Originally Posted by cmal View Post
    Theory crafting aside, this is a futile thread. Wardens are working as intended, and I believe appropriately balanced as far as freeps go (I still maintain that creeps need development on the whole) when you take into consideration that the moors is by design focused on group versus group encounters. As a solo player, I long ago came to terms with the fact that devs do not and should not care how any particular class performs outside of the intended group versus group setting. Furthermore, I can see little reason now and certainly no reason if creeps and freeps ever reach any semblance of parity why a group looking to be competitive should choose a warden over any other class aside from pulling and babysitting keep mobs.
    -50% incoming healing, full-time, mutliple targets.

  15. #115
    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    -50% incoming healing, full-time, mutliple targets.
    You'd be surprised with how many fotm Wardens use it on my server. Maybe too much thinking.

  16. #116
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Posts
    956
    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    -50% incoming healing, full-time, mutliple targets.
    I would have to crunch numbers but wouldn't a full DPS class, especially aoe champ, be of more value? Creeps don't have that many group heals and even one more single target DPS blowing up a defiler or WL would be a better choice in most circumstances. Interrupted or dead healer is a 100% reduction of healing to all targets.

    I am not saying wardens don't have a value but rather that place in a raid may be better served by moar deeps. Kinda like the U6 argument of sure, wardens CAN tank but why not bring a guard instead? Please correct me if I am wrong. It is a chronic condition.

    Edit: for some reason I was thinking the heal debuff was attached to spear line. I feel silly.
    Last edited by cmal; Oct 17 2013 at 03:40 PM.

  17. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by cmal View Post
    I would have to crunch numbers but wouldn't a full DPS class, especially aoe champ, be of more value? Creeps don't have that many group heals and even one more single target DPS blowing up a defiler or WL would be a better choice in most circumstances. Interrupted or dead healer is a 100% reduction of healing to all targets.

    I am not saying wardens don't have a value but rather that place in a raid may be better served by moar deeps. Kinda like the U6 argument of sure, wardens CAN tank but why not bring a guard instead? Please correct me if I am wrong. It is a chronic condition.

    Edit: for some reason I was thinking the heal debuff was attached to spear line. I feel silly.
    In conversations with different healers on 2 different servers, I've been told that my warden is one of the few players they have encountered than can consistently solo kill them using max heals without them outside getting heal/dps support. This of course comes with the caveat that any hunter blowing cooldowns in an area without objects to break LoS should be able to as well.

    A raid might not benefit from stacking 6 wardens the way they might in stacking 6 hunters, but the availability of this debuff means carrying 1 or 2 of them in a raid to ensure all targets of focus fire get 50% less heals is absolutely crippling to craid leaders that don't have an abundance of bubbles to burn. RvR fights for creepside are all about getting the target under 50% morale, not because Dev strike hits so hard (since obviously impale hits harder), but because that 50% inc healing debuff means only big cooldown skills like SotD, or the RK inc damage bubble are going to save them. I'd also pit the unharrassed dps of a reckless warden up against a hunter/rk/champs (for a minute burn, not a spike of course) and their assailment dps wouldn't lag too far behind, which can be especially valuable considering DC makes a grouped warden about the absolute last target of a craid.

    None of this is to get into the possibilities gear-swapping for both the vigilance and spear lord set-bonuses.

    Basically, stacking wardens doesn't make a ton of sense, but carrying 1 or 2 that can put out that inc healing debuff is more valuable than filling that slot with more random dpsers who you think might do a bit more damage in a fight.

 

 
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