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  1. #1
    Join Date
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    Fix healing on both sides and nerf Wardens (or at least Warden bleeds).

    I think we can all agree the that healing on both sides is pretty cheap right now...way too over the top, especially for Freeps. Creep healing is pretty ridiculous too when you throw a couple of Warleaders in the mix. However, to me it is hard to tell whether the healing itself is the problem, or if it's just the fact that there are too many healstacked groups?

    And then there are the Wardens....

    I don't know about other servers, but on my server, there are at least 2-3 Wardens in EVERY small group, and even more in large raids. I'm sure every Creep remembers the amount of QQ there was on the forums when Wargs were "OP"...calls for nerfs to the class for the sake of balance...where are those cries now?

    So...to the questions:

    Do Warden's themselves need to be nerfed, or just their bleeds? Or is it just that Creeps need to be buffed?

    Does Creep healing need a nerf, or just Freep healing? Or does healing even need a nerf at all?

    Thoughts? Ideas?

  2. #2
    Join Date
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    Quote Originally Posted by Selebrimbor View Post
    I think we can all agree the that healing on both sides is pretty cheap right now...way too over the top, especially for Freeps. Creep healing is pretty ridiculous too when you throw a couple of Warleaders in the mix. However, to me it is hard to tell whether the healing itself is the problem, or if it's just the fact that there are too many healstacked groups?

    And then there are the Wardens....

    I don't know about other servers, but on my server, there are at least 2-3 Wardens in EVERY small group, and even more in large raids. I'm sure every Creep remembers the amount of QQ there was on the forums when Wargs were "OP"...calls for nerfs to the class for the sake of balance...where are those cries now?

    So...to the questions:

    Do Warden's themselves need to be nerfed, or just their bleeds? Or is it just that Creeps need to be buffed?

    Does Creep healing need a nerf, or just Freep healing? Or does healing even need a nerf at all?

    Thoughts? Ideas?
    Nerf over all healing and give creeps better spike damage. HoTs freepside seem to be able to cancel out to much of the creeps damage which is, for the most part, DoT in nature. Reavers do ok because they have some ability to do spike damage, but wargs and BAs not so much.

  3. #3
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    There isn't a whole lot about Wardens that is actually balanced these days. If you're looking for specifics on what is broken about them(not OP, broken), then here is a few:


    • HOTs in Determination heal for WAY too much. Granted you can stay out of Melee to avoid them healing off of you, but that's hardly a credible suggestion to melee based creeps now is it? This ties into Freep healing as a whole though.
    • DOTs in Recklessness/Assailment. 300-1k+ per tick(depending on level of bleed), uncurable, multiple ticking at once, long duration. Escape a fight with a bunch of these on you and your ICMR/OCMR cannot keep up with them.
    • Defiant Challenge. longish duration, short cooldown, no effective counter.
    • Stance dancing. Can switch between Melee DPS, Ranged DPS and extreme survivability at will. Can be effective in any one of these roles, regardless of build.


    And yes, healing in general is just absurd. Far as I'm concerned, both damage AND healing need a drop, I'm equally sick of the 'never drop below 90% Morale' classes as I am of the 'kill you in ~10 seconds' ones.
    [LEFT][COLOR=#ffffff]Morlenil Barkolomew Turmuz Shurz Gruubluk

    Posting in white; so people can read my dismal ramblings easier.[/COLOR][/LEFT]

  4. #4
    I'm so sick of all these "Nerf Wardens!" threads... Why couldn't you just reply to one of the 100 existing ones, instead of creating a new one?

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by doug01 View Post
    Nerf over all healing and give creeps better spike damage. HoTs freepside seem to be able to cancel out to much of the creeps damage which is, for the most part, DoT in nature. Reavers do ok because they have some ability to do spike damage, but wargs and BAs not so much.
    Yes, Wargs and BAs, true titans of DoT based attacks.

    The more I think about the complaints about warden DoTs, the less inclined I am to agree with people upset about them. Wardens can do very solid DPS when geared and traited appropriately, but it certainly isn't stronger than well played hunters/champs/burgs. We have the ability to effectively take down targets, particularly those getting heals, thanks to an armour set-bonus that reduces incoming healing by 50%, not crazy dps that blows through healing. If the class was adjusted so that our dps remained the same, but that damage was shifted from DoTs to upfront damage, I can assure you, the QQ would only get worse, other than maybe Wargs who would once again be able to use dissapear as an escape skill to full effect against the class. PS. If you hate wardens as a warg, pray to Worgnakh that the upcoming class changes don't make Fire Rks viable in the moors again. Ever had 2+ minutes of fire DoTs ticking on you, from one skill?

    Complaints about survivability, and the ability to swap from one extreme of high dps to an inordinate amount of survivability are more well-founded, though.
    Last edited by spelunker; Aug 28 2013 at 01:00 PM.

  6. #6
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    yes wardens need nurf. even wardens think so now...

    I don't think other classes need a buff, if all classes were as potent as warden, NPC's in moors would be pointless and the only safe zones would be graveyards and main places. it's silly at times how useless 10+ NPC's on people are, you really shouldn't be able to storm up tr/lug with barely a scratch to then still able to eat a creep or 2 while massively overhealing with aoe moral-taps. keeps and camps need to be a little safe, currently, it's a little on the weak side. but for the more balanced classes it's still a fair difficulty at times. you can go overboard the otherside ofc, which can be just as bad if not worse.

    don't think creep healing needs a buff. just reduce freep healing imo. it's balanced for PvE, not for PvMP. it's silly that a captain at times can heal the group more than enough. it's just too much imo, survival in other area's like moving correctly should be more of a focus, not just having OP healing classes make up for people slacking

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
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    Lol like any devs are reading the forums.. anyways: Yes at healing reduction.

    @wardens: Stances should be activated ONLY out of combat. Once you are in combat you can't activate or swich a stance. (either have a stance active or fight stance-less) Remove assailment completelly, and add a skill <insert name here> that makes all gambits and builders usable from 40m range, with NO minimum range reqs. Duration 15 secs cd 30 secs.

    Probably less than 20 mins of work, easiest "fix" ever. But oh - They don't care!

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yelloweyedemon View Post
    wardens: Stances should be activated ONLY out of combat. Once you are in combat you can't activate or swich a stance. (either have a stance active or fight stance-less) Remove assailment completelly, and add a skill <insert name here> that makes all gambits and builders usable from 40m range, with NO minimum range reqs. Duration 15 secs cd 30 secs.

    Probably less than 20 mins of work, easiest "fix" ever. But oh - They don't care!
    I hate that solution. warden is the closest this game has to stance dancing. stances on champion, hunter, burg or minstrel really arn't active play at all and I fully expect them to either be removed and put into lines or changed to be more stance dancy. not just a band-aid to put on before a fight.

    they devs do read the forums too. not all of it, and they very rarely reply to stuff. but rock (he's a cool guy ^_^) has commented on stuff before.

    I would also have recklessness removed and just have melee and ranged stance. warden is, at there core, a hybrid class. but that doesn't mean assailment should be doing good dps in all lines. or melee to be great in a ranged line. or even dps at all while tanking set up. really, the base numbers are too high to begin with and I expect to see these reduced, but traiting correctly can buff them better than now. think, red warden, being like a champion with a few more ranged skills. or yellow warden, a lower dps hunter with slightly better melee and more utility stuff. and a blue warden, no matter what stance, should be like watching a tanking guardian solo BfE with 11 healers. self healing tank + good dps is just OP -_-

  9. #9
    There should be a strong delineation between dps and healing classes. One of the most basic design flaws of this game is that PvP seems to have been an afterthought, tacked onto the game w/out consideration of the skills each class has acquired over the course of 85 levels (freep side, obviously). So, too many classes have heals/self-heals (stock and/or traited) in addition to doing massive damage.

    If you choose to play a healer, great, but that should come at the price of not being able to do insane damage and a healer should be squishy but not solo-able by a dps of similar rank. Likewise, if you prefer to play ranged or melee dps, you shouldn't be able to throw heals as well.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Newyorc View Post
    There should be a strong delineation between dps and healing classes.
    This has always been the problem, I personally wouldn't care about the DoT's if their defensive capabilities weren't so high simultaneously, similar to champions in that respect.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Thorandril View Post
    This has always been the problem, I personally wouldn't care about the DoT's if their defensive capabilities weren't so high simultaneously, similar to champions in that respect.
    This really is the heart of the issue concerning wardens, the offensive AND defensive capabilities.

    I'll reiterate my point on bleeds: If spear warden's were revamped so that they no longer relied on DoTs, but were still able to be '2nd tier' dps (behind champs/hunters/burgs, ahead of lms/cappies/minis, roughly speaking) through better upfront dps (un-nerfing Warden's Triumph, and better scaling critical strike and Wages of fear, for instance), every creep class besides wargs would be more upset with what wardens are capable of as a dps class.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    This really is the heart of the issue concerning wardens, the offensive AND defensive capabilities.

    I'll reiterate my point on bleeds: If spear warden's were revamped so that they no longer relied on DoTs, but were still able to be '2nd tier' dps (behind champs/hunters/burgs) through better upfront dps (un-nerfing Warden's Triumph, and better scaling critical strike and Wages of fear, for instance), every creep class besides wargs would be more upset with what wardens are capable of as a dps class.
    That's your assumption. I'd have to say as a Creep player that it wouldn't turn out like that. The fact that a Warden wouldn't be able to kill you ~20s after he's dead wouldn't just please Wargs, as it can happen to any class that's not a WL or Defiler. From a personal point of view seeing all those DOTs ticking and not being able to do jack to stop them is far worse than being beaten on physically. At least with the latter you don't feel utterly helpless.
    [LEFT][COLOR=#ffffff]Morlenil Barkolomew Turmuz Shurz Gruubluk

    Posting in white; so people can read my dismal ramblings easier.[/COLOR][/LEFT]

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyrion View Post


    That's your assumption. I'd have to say as a Creep player that it wouldn't turn out like that. The fact that a Warden wouldn't be able to kill you ~20s after he's dead wouldn't just please Wargs, as it can happen to any class that's not a WL or Defiler. From a personal point of view seeing all those DOTs ticking and not being able to do jack to stop them is far worse than being beaten on physically. At least with the latter you don't feel utterly helpless.
    And I have to say, as a creep player if I have to choose between two classes of equal dps, and where one is gated (and thus slow to come to fruition) behind DoTs, and one is dealt primarily upfront, i'll take the DoTs every time. Exactly as you describe, you psychologically don't like to see those DoTs. Lets say I can get 1k dps on my warden vs a creep (this is not necessarily an accurate number, btw), under a DoT system, it takes me a good 10-15s to build up to that figure, where if our straight damage gambits were buffed to where we could achieve 1k dps with them, you'd be dying much sooner, and be less likely to kill the warden in the first place for that double kb that you are currently unhappy with.

    I like the warden damage layout as it is now, since it is more complex to maximize than it used to be, and requires more adjustments on the fly and adaptation to differing circumstances. If however, warden's are allowed to stay as a middle of the pack dps class, and not brought down to a low end dps one, any shift away from DoTs (given the nature of the class) is going to be worse news for creeps (besides wargs).

    Edit:
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyrion View Post
    Whether Wardens are a 'bleed class' or not, it's too much. If you're really trying to tell me that they need all four of these aspects in order to do decent DPS, I am going to call BS on that. Hard.
    Ok, give me a parse or vid of a warden at lvl 75 (post revamp) or 85 using a good, full bleed rotation, and then show me that same warden using no bleeds and putting up close to similar dps numbers. It isn't possible. I can provide parses and vids of me doing 20-30% less dps with all straight damage gambits compared to ones where I use DoTs, if that would in some way be enlightening.
    Last edited by spelunker; Aug 30 2013 at 03:47 PM.

 

 

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