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  1. #1
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    Fix healing on both sides and nerf Wardens (or at least Warden bleeds).

    I think we can all agree the that healing on both sides is pretty cheap right now...way too over the top, especially for Freeps. Creep healing is pretty ridiculous too when you throw a couple of Warleaders in the mix. However, to me it is hard to tell whether the healing itself is the problem, or if it's just the fact that there are too many healstacked groups?

    And then there are the Wardens....

    I don't know about other servers, but on my server, there are at least 2-3 Wardens in EVERY small group, and even more in large raids. I'm sure every Creep remembers the amount of QQ there was on the forums when Wargs were "OP"...calls for nerfs to the class for the sake of balance...where are those cries now?

    So...to the questions:

    Do Warden's themselves need to be nerfed, or just their bleeds? Or is it just that Creeps need to be buffed?

    Does Creep healing need a nerf, or just Freep healing? Or does healing even need a nerf at all?

    Thoughts? Ideas?
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  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Selebrimbor View Post
    I think we can all agree the that healing on both sides is pretty cheap right now...way too over the top, especially for Freeps. Creep healing is pretty ridiculous too when you throw a couple of Warleaders in the mix. However, to me it is hard to tell whether the healing itself is the problem, or if it's just the fact that there are too many healstacked groups?

    And then there are the Wardens....

    I don't know about other servers, but on my server, there are at least 2-3 Wardens in EVERY small group, and even more in large raids. I'm sure every Creep remembers the amount of QQ there was on the forums when Wargs were "OP"...calls for nerfs to the class for the sake of balance...where are those cries now?

    So...to the questions:

    Do Warden's themselves need to be nerfed, or just their bleeds? Or is it just that Creeps need to be buffed?

    Does Creep healing need a nerf, or just Freep healing? Or does healing even need a nerf at all?

    Thoughts? Ideas?
    Nerf over all healing and give creeps better spike damage. HoTs freepside seem to be able to cancel out to much of the creeps damage which is, for the most part, DoT in nature. Reavers do ok because they have some ability to do spike damage, but wargs and BAs not so much.
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  3. #3
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    There isn't a whole lot about Wardens that is actually balanced these days. If you're looking for specifics on what is broken about them(not OP, broken), then here is a few:


    • HOTs in Determination heal for WAY too much. Granted you can stay out of Melee to avoid them healing off of you, but that's hardly a credible suggestion to melee based creeps now is it? This ties into Freep healing as a whole though.
    • DOTs in Recklessness/Assailment. 300-1k+ per tick(depending on level of bleed), uncurable, multiple ticking at once, long duration. Escape a fight with a bunch of these on you and your ICMR/OCMR cannot keep up with them.
    • Defiant Challenge. longish duration, short cooldown, no effective counter.
    • Stance dancing. Can switch between Melee DPS, Ranged DPS and extreme survivability at will. Can be effective in any one of these roles, regardless of build.


    And yes, healing in general is just absurd. Far as I'm concerned, both damage AND healing need a drop, I'm equally sick of the 'never drop below 90% Morale' classes as I am of the 'kill you in ~10 seconds' ones.
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  4. #4
    I'm so sick of all these "Nerf Wardens!" threads... Why couldn't you just reply to one of the 100 existing ones, instead of creating a new one?
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  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by doug01 View Post
    Nerf over all healing and give creeps better spike damage. HoTs freepside seem to be able to cancel out to much of the creeps damage which is, for the most part, DoT in nature. Reavers do ok because they have some ability to do spike damage, but wargs and BAs not so much.
    Yes, Wargs and BAs, true titans of DoT based attacks.

    The more I think about the complaints about warden DoTs, the less inclined I am to agree with people upset about them. Wardens can do very solid DPS when geared and traited appropriately, but it certainly isn't stronger than well played hunters/champs/burgs. We have the ability to effectively take down targets, particularly those getting heals, thanks to an armour set-bonus that reduces incoming healing by 50%, not crazy dps that blows through healing. If the class was adjusted so that our dps remained the same, but that damage was shifted from DoTs to upfront damage, I can assure you, the QQ would only get worse, other than maybe Wargs who would once again be able to use dissapear as an escape skill to full effect against the class. PS. If you hate wardens as a warg, pray to Worgnakh that the upcoming class changes don't make Fire Rks viable in the moors again. Ever had 2+ minutes of fire DoTs ticking on you, from one skill?

    Complaints about survivability, and the ability to swap from one extreme of high dps to an inordinate amount of survivability are more well-founded, though.
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  6. #6
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    yes wardens need nurf. even wardens think so now...

    I don't think other classes need a buff, if all classes were as potent as warden, NPC's in moors would be pointless and the only safe zones would be graveyards and main places. it's silly at times how useless 10+ NPC's on people are, you really shouldn't be able to storm up tr/lug with barely a scratch to then still able to eat a creep or 2 while massively overhealing with aoe moral-taps. keeps and camps need to be a little safe, currently, it's a little on the weak side. but for the more balanced classes it's still a fair difficulty at times. you can go overboard the otherside ofc, which can be just as bad if not worse.

    don't think creep healing needs a buff. just reduce freep healing imo. it's balanced for PvE, not for PvMP. it's silly that a captain at times can heal the group more than enough. it's just too much imo, survival in other area's like moving correctly should be more of a focus, not just having OP healing classes make up for people slacking
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  7. #7
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    Lol like any devs are reading the forums.. anyways: Yes at healing reduction.

    @wardens: Stances should be activated ONLY out of combat. Once you are in combat you can't activate or swich a stance. (either have a stance active or fight stance-less) Remove assailment completelly, and add a skill <insert name here> that makes all gambits and builders usable from 40m range, with NO minimum range reqs. Duration 15 secs cd 30 secs.

    Probably less than 20 mins of work, easiest "fix" ever. But oh - They don't care!
    ~Nimolas R11 Warden (Retired before RoR) (Snowbourn)

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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yelloweyedemon View Post
    wardens: Stances should be activated ONLY out of combat. Once you are in combat you can't activate or swich a stance. (either have a stance active or fight stance-less) Remove assailment completelly, and add a skill <insert name here> that makes all gambits and builders usable from 40m range, with NO minimum range reqs. Duration 15 secs cd 30 secs.

    Probably less than 20 mins of work, easiest "fix" ever. But oh - They don't care!
    I hate that solution. warden is the closest this game has to stance dancing. stances on champion, hunter, burg or minstrel really arn't active play at all and I fully expect them to either be removed and put into lines or changed to be more stance dancy. not just a band-aid to put on before a fight.

    they devs do read the forums too. not all of it, and they very rarely reply to stuff. but rock (he's a cool guy ^_^) has commented on stuff before.

    I would also have recklessness removed and just have melee and ranged stance. warden is, at there core, a hybrid class. but that doesn't mean assailment should be doing good dps in all lines. or melee to be great in a ranged line. or even dps at all while tanking set up. really, the base numbers are too high to begin with and I expect to see these reduced, but traiting correctly can buff them better than now. think, red warden, being like a champion with a few more ranged skills. or yellow warden, a lower dps hunter with slightly better melee and more utility stuff. and a blue warden, no matter what stance, should be like watching a tanking guardian solo BfE with 11 healers. self healing tank + good dps is just OP -_-
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by bohbashum View Post
    I hate that solution. warden is the closest this game has to stance dancing. stances on champion, hunter, burg or minstrel really arn't active play at all and I fully expect them to either be removed and put into lines or changed to be more stance dancy. not just a band-aid to put on before a fight.

    they devs do read the forums too. not all of it, and they very rarely reply to stuff. but rock (he's a cool guy ^_^) has commented on stuff before.

    I would also have recklessness removed and just have melee and ranged stance. warden is, at there core, a hybrid class. but that doesn't mean assailment should be doing good dps in all lines. or melee to be great in a ranged line. or even dps at all while tanking set up. really, the base numbers are too high to begin with and I expect to see these reduced, but traiting correctly can buff them better than now. think, red warden, being like a champion with a few more ranged skills. or yellow warden, a lower dps hunter with slightly better melee and more utility stuff. and a blue warden, no matter what stance, should be like watching a tanking guardian solo BfE with 11 healers. self healing tank + good dps is just OP -_-
    The only "problem" with wardens at the moment, is that they can swap roles in 1 sec by swaping stances. They can go from dps to tank when needed, and the other way around. A hybrid ranged melee class should be able to do good damage from both ranged/melee at the same time without the need to 'stance dancing'. What is needed is 1 tanking stance, and one melee/ranged dps stance. It would be the easiest fix now.

    Also what you said is wrong, because assailment was never meant to be a dps stance. It was meant to give wardens a support role in raids. That never happened of course, because the buffs were too hasty made, and the stance itself was left unfinished - and that was said by the warden dev at the time. They will probably never finish the stance, and it will always be a viable ranged dps stance, with no real role or need in pve.
    ~Nimolas R11 Warden (Retired before RoR) (Snowbourn)

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  10. #10
    There should be a strong delineation between dps and healing classes. One of the most basic design flaws of this game is that PvP seems to have been an afterthought, tacked onto the game w/out consideration of the skills each class has acquired over the course of 85 levels (freep side, obviously). So, too many classes have heals/self-heals (stock and/or traited) in addition to doing massive damage.

    If you choose to play a healer, great, but that should come at the price of not being able to do insane damage and a healer should be squishy but not solo-able by a dps of similar rank. Likewise, if you prefer to play ranged or melee dps, you shouldn't be able to throw heals as well.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yelloweyedemon View Post
    The only "problem" with wardens at the moment, is that they can swap roles in 1 sec by swaping stances. They can go from dps to tank when needed, and the other way around. A hybrid ranged melee class should be able to do good damage from both ranged/melee at the same time without the need to 'stance dancing'. What is needed is 1 tanking stance, and one melee/ranged dps stance. It would be the easiest fix now.

    Also what you said is wrong, because assailment was never meant to be a dps stance. It was meant to give wardens a support role in raids. That never happened of course, because the buffs were too hasty made, and the stance itself was left unfinished - and that was said by the warden dev at the time. They will probably never finish the stance, and it will always be a viable ranged dps stance, with no real role or need in pve.
    stance dancing is a fun mechanism. it's also a great counter mechanism for people to learn to play against, there are some amaing spiders out there that weave in and out of warden ranges to force him to stance dance badly and is a great counter to warden.

    I don't think it should be removed. but I agree a class shouldn't be able to do all 3 rolls as well as the warden is doing.

    what is was obviously didn't come to pass at all. what it is, is what we should discuss. it's not exactly a dps roll, but it's still ok dps with some great bleeds. I do agree though, there are enough ranged classes, warden should be more supporty with it's ranged than have good dps, I would say LM should be out dpsing ranged warden by a bit tbh (single-target ofc). we'll see how they update that thought.

    with them mentioning more about a trade off for surivability fr damage, I suspect warden will get hit high with that. so traiting red/yellow your form and potency of survival will change. those should be a much more potent trade-off than what the current lines are doing. I would also hate a blue warden able to do over ~800 damage in either melee or ranged. your traiting for a tank, your dps should suck.

    but I don't think that means to remove stance dancing from warden. it would be the easy way for turbine to do it but it's by far from the better solutions.
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by bohbashum View Post
    stance dancing is a fun mechanism. it's also a great counter mechanism for people to learn to play against, there are some amaing spiders out there that weave in and out of warden ranges to force him to stance dance badly and is a great counter to warden.

    I don't think it should be removed. but I agree a class shouldn't be able to do all 3 rolls as well as the warden is doing.

    what is was obviously didn't come to pass at all. what it is, is what we should discuss. it's not exactly a dps roll, but it's still ok dps with some great bleeds. I do agree though, there are enough ranged classes, warden should be more supporty with it's ranged than have good dps, I would say LM should be out dpsing ranged warden by a bit tbh (single-target ofc). we'll see how they update that thought.

    with them mentioning more about a trade off for surivability fr damage, I suspect warden will get hit high with that. so traiting red/yellow your form and potency of survival will change. those should be a much more potent trade-off than what the current lines are doing. I would also hate a blue warden able to do over ~800 damage in either melee or ranged. your traiting for a tank, your dps should suck.

    but I don't think that means to remove stance dancing from warden. it would be the easy way for turbine to do it but it's by far from the better solutions.
    Well yeah, it's more of a personal preference if stance dancing is okay or not. It doesn't hurt the game if it's just dps to dps (ranged-melee). Although the dps to tank in 1 sec needs to go. It is the only problem with wardens at the moment. Although OP seems to just want a damage nerf (he mentioned only bleeds, which are the 50% of the wardens dps) just because they annoy him.
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yelloweyedemon View Post
    It doesn't hurt the game if it's just dps to dps (ranged-melee). Although the dps to tank in 1 sec needs to go.
    well, your first bit is true. a type of dps to another type of dps stance dancing ends up being a fun mechanism not too many games use tbh. mechanism more like gambit or attunement than to gate certain skill sets apart. why I suggested just melee/ranged stance. not all about having tank/support(or ranged)/dps stance in a sense.

    so you would switch between melee and ranged, which still leaves in that element creeps can learn to moniplulate, and wardens still have depth to swap for better potency at times. a melee set-up warden would still need to swap to ranged, and a ranged warden would be forced to swap to melee.

    as long as you can't switch from a great dps to a great tank I don't mind. should be great dps and #### tank, or #### dps and great tank. no one should be able to do everything, and survival/damage is very core to gameplay, only way warden could get more OP is stick captain like group buffs and lore-master debuffs on his gambits. I don't mind everyone being able to do everything, just not at the same time.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yelloweyedemon View Post
    It is the only problem with wardens at the moment. Although OP seems to just want a damage nerf (he mentioned only bleeds, which are the 50% of the wardens dps) just because they annoy him.
    not only problem. even if we nurfed the sheild wardens dps to that of a defiler, their survival is still stupidly unfair imo.

    when I play warden, only melee/ranged dps, no hots, no aoe moral-taps, no determination, no defiant challange. it's actually a fairly balanced class imo. the bleeds do need to be pottable, maybe even allow defiler/warg/spider/wl to remove a set resistence type like burg/hunter/lm/mini/rk/champ/guardian/captain??? the duration and potency is only really OP with armor swapping to get some silly stacking of bonuses.
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  14. #14
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    Something must be done about healing, there have been many draws in contests between raids on my server, the main reason for this is healstacking ( or so I think ). With heals as powerful as they currently are raids can smash against each other for lengthy periods of time with little damage done to either side with as little as 1 rank 6ish healer per 6 man group on both sides. Even when I tried running a 4 BA, 1 WL group, we accomplished nothing more than quickly replaced dents in the opposing healers' morale.
    These healstack v healstack clashes can be fun for awhile, but in the end, there is no winner; something needs to be done.

    As for wardens, leave their bleeds, and give blackarrows similarly long lasting, damaging bleeds. It needs to be evened out, wardens are the only class with bleeds that kill long after they have been defeated. For me, many a 1v1 with a warden has resulted in a draw thanks to these bleeds. Why not give the same ridiculously high DoTs to Blackarrows. Lets see what it's like when both sides have huge bleeds.
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  15. #15
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    On the subject of bleeds:


    • High damage
    • Long duration
    • Multiple stacks
    • Unpottable


    It's okay for a class' bleeds to have a couple of these things, but all of them at once is just wrong. With the possible exception of Fire RKs, no other class can claim to have access to every one of these points.
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  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Grumpisaw View Post
    These healstack v healstack clashes can be fun for awhile, but in the end, there is no winner; something needs to be done.
    I dunno, I like really long epic battles. As long as focus-fire is happening, you *will* take down opponents. The only issue I can see is if both sides don't have enough DPS and instead have too many healers, but I hardly think that requires changes to healing; the players need to put together groups that can function appropriately. If you go out with 5/6 in a group being healers, you can expect to never kill anything. Have some people switch to non-heal toons or recruit some DPS. :/

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aldeld View Post
    I dunno, I like really long epic battles. As long as focus-fire is happening, you *will* take down opponents. The only issue I can see is if both sides don't have enough DPS and instead have too many healers, but I hardly think that requires changes to healing; the players need to put together groups that can function appropriately. If you go out with 5/6 in a group being healers, you can expect to never kill anything. Have some people switch to non-heal toons or recruit some DPS. :/
    Ridder's healstacking has been rediclulous the last few times I have been on, as many as 3 healers per 6man, no focus fire can work, people force others to healstack, it's sad.
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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Newyorc View Post
    There should be a strong delineation between dps and healing classes.
    This has always been the problem, I personally wouldn't care about the DoT's if their defensive capabilities weren't so high simultaneously, similar to champions in that respect.
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  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Thorandril View Post
    This has always been the problem, I personally wouldn't care about the DoT's if their defensive capabilities weren't so high simultaneously, similar to champions in that respect.
    This really is the heart of the issue concerning wardens, the offensive AND defensive capabilities.

    I'll reiterate my point on bleeds: If spear warden's were revamped so that they no longer relied on DoTs, but were still able to be '2nd tier' dps (behind champs/hunters/burgs, ahead of lms/cappies/minis, roughly speaking) through better upfront dps (un-nerfing Warden's Triumph, and better scaling critical strike and Wages of fear, for instance), every creep class besides wargs would be more upset with what wardens are capable of as a dps class.
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    This really is the heart of the issue concerning wardens, the offensive AND defensive capabilities.

    I'll reiterate my point on bleeds: If spear warden's were revamped so that they no longer relied on DoTs, but were still able to be '2nd tier' dps (behind champs/hunters/burgs) through better upfront dps (un-nerfing Warden's Triumph, and better scaling critical strike and Wages of fear, for instance), every creep class besides wargs would be more upset with what wardens are capable of as a dps class.
    That's your assumption. I'd have to say as a Creep player that it wouldn't turn out like that. The fact that a Warden wouldn't be able to kill you ~20s after he's dead wouldn't just please Wargs, as it can happen to any class that's not a WL or Defiler. From a personal point of view seeing all those DOTs ticking and not being able to do jack to stop them is far worse than being beaten on physically. At least with the latter you don't feel utterly helpless.
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  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyrion View Post
    On the subject of bleeds:


    • High damage
    Warden DPS relies on DoT's... Of course it's high. Brutal Strkes/Pen shot doesn't dev for 500 either, does it?

    • Long duration
    LM's/RKs/Guards all have longer durations. This argument is invalid.

    • Multiple stacks
    One DoT would make us spam Wall of Steel + Warden's Triumph. Sounds fun.

    • Unpottable
    Bleeds are Brutal/Pen shot/Impale/Claws + Rend. Can I pot those?


    It's okay for a class' bleeds to have a couple of these things, but all of them at once is just wrong. With the possible exception of Fire RKs, no other class can claim to have access to every one of these points.
    Champs/Hunters/RKs shouldn't be able to DPS either, I guess? Let's remove EoS/Shocking Words/Brutal Strikes/nPS, then, too, while we're at it.
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  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giliodor View Post
    Warden DPS relies on DoT's... Of course it's high. Brutal Strkes/Pen shot doesn't dev for 500 either, does it?
    Wardens do upfront damage too. They are not 100% reliant on bleeds.

    LM's/RKs/Guards all have longer durations. This argument is invalid.
    My point flew right over your head didn't it? Read over what I said again please.

    One DoT would make us spam Wall of Steel + Warden's Triumph. Sounds fun.
    And again.

    Bleeds are Brutal/Pen shot/Impale/Claws + Rend. Can I pot those?
    Now you're just not making sense. As I said above, Wardens are not utterly devoid of burst damage.

    Champs/Hunters/RKs shouldn't be able to DPS either, I guess? Let's remove EoS/Shocking Words/Brutal Strikes/nPS, then, too, while we're at it.
    What in the flaming heck are you trying to say here? Since you didn't read my post correctly, I'll explain it again. Having long bleed durations, or doing lots of damage with them, is fine on their own. Having a couple, totally cool.

    It's when a class can have bleeds that do high damage, are unpottable, can have multiple ones ticking at the same time, AND have lengthy durations that they become a problem.

    Whether Wardens are a 'bleed class' or not, it's too much. If you're really trying to tell me that they need all four of these aspects in order to do decent DPS, I am going to call BS on that. Hard.
    Last edited by Nyrion; Aug 30 2013 at 03:34 PM.
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  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyrion View Post


    That's your assumption. I'd have to say as a Creep player that it wouldn't turn out like that. The fact that a Warden wouldn't be able to kill you ~20s after he's dead wouldn't just please Wargs, as it can happen to any class that's not a WL or Defiler. From a personal point of view seeing all those DOTs ticking and not being able to do jack to stop them is far worse than being beaten on physically. At least with the latter you don't feel utterly helpless.
    And I have to say, as a creep player if I have to choose between two classes of equal dps, and where one is gated (and thus slow to come to fruition) behind DoTs, and one is dealt primarily upfront, i'll take the DoTs every time. Exactly as you describe, you psychologically don't like to see those DoTs. Lets say I can get 1k dps on my warden vs a creep (this is not necessarily an accurate number, btw), under a DoT system, it takes me a good 10-15s to build up to that figure, where if our straight damage gambits were buffed to where we could achieve 1k dps with them, you'd be dying much sooner, and be less likely to kill the warden in the first place for that double kb that you are currently unhappy with.

    I like the warden damage layout as it is now, since it is more complex to maximize than it used to be, and requires more adjustments on the fly and adaptation to differing circumstances. If however, warden's are allowed to stay as a middle of the pack dps class, and not brought down to a low end dps one, any shift away from DoTs (given the nature of the class) is going to be worse news for creeps (besides wargs).

    Edit:
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyrion View Post
    Whether Wardens are a 'bleed class' or not, it's too much. If you're really trying to tell me that they need all four of these aspects in order to do decent DPS, I am going to call BS on that. Hard.
    Ok, give me a parse or vid of a warden at lvl 75 (post revamp) or 85 using a good, full bleed rotation, and then show me that same warden using no bleeds and putting up close to similar dps numbers. It isn't possible. I can provide parses and vids of me doing 20-30% less dps with all straight damage gambits compared to ones where I use DoTs, if that would in some way be enlightening.
    Last edited by spelunker; Aug 30 2013 at 03:47 PM.
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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    And I have to say, as a creep player if I have to choose between two classes of equal dps, and where one is gated (and thus slow to come to fruition) behind DoTs, and one is dealt primarily upfront, i'll take the DoTs every time. Exactly as you describe, you psychologically don't like to see those DoTs. Lets say I can get 1k dps on my warden vs a creep (this is not necessarily an accurate number, btw), under a DoT system, it takes me a good 10-15s to build up to that figure, where if our straight damage gambits were buffed to where we could achieve 1k dps with them, you'd be dying much sooner, and be less likely to kill the warden in the first place for that double kb that you are currently unhappy with.

    I like the warden damage layout as it is now, since it is more complex to maximize than it used to be, and requires more adjustments on the fly and adaptation to differing circumstances. If however, warden's are allowed to stay as a middle of the pack dps class, and not brought down to a low end dps one, any shift away from DoTs (given the nature of the class) is going to be worse news for creeps (besides wargs).
    In the current environment, I concede that more burst would be worse for the creep faction as a whole. I'm just not totally convinced that it would feel worse to your average creep than taking a couple of parting gambits hits and dying without further focus fire. After all creepside in general is much more used to taking immense burst damage.

    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    Ok, give me a parse or vid of a warden at lvl 75 (post revamp) or 85 using a good, full bleed rotation, and then show me that same warden using no bleeds and putting up close to similar dps numbers. It isn't possible. I can provide parses and vids of me doing 20-30% less dps with all straight damage gambits compared to ones where I use DoTs, if that would in some way be enlightening.


    My god, am I being that hard to understand? I AM NOT SAYING THEY SHOULD REMOVE WARDEN BLEEDS. I am saying that NO CLASS should be able to have bleeds with the kind of overall power that Wardens do. As is they can DOT your average creep up, and be safe in the knowledge that without healing of some sort, he *will* die. No other class, certainly not on creepside can make such a claim.

    Let's use an example. Say that the bleeds still do huge damage, still are unpottable, still can have multiple applications, but their duration is cut down some(say to their original.. 18 seconds was it?). Would that then make the Warden nonviable in terms of DPS? I very much doubt it.

    Or try another. Same duration, same potency, same number, but they can be potted like LM DOTs. Would that make them nonviable? Again I don't think so, as they can be easily reapplied.
    Last edited by Nyrion; Aug 30 2013 at 04:01 PM.
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  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyrion View Post
    In the current environment, I concede that more burst would be worse for the creep faction as a whole. I'm just not totally convinced that it would feel worse to your average creep than taking a couple of parting gambits hits and dying without further focus fire. After all creepside in general is much more used to taking immense burst damage.
    And I absolutely agree that long duration, powerful bleeds in a class that also has access to a fast swap stance that allows them access to long duration, powerful heals, allowing them to have their cake and eat it too, in maintaining solid offense and defense all at once. Hopefully this capacity gets significantly diminished in HD, but if DoTs get nerfed and upfront damage gets increased, creeps will be worse off from a damage perspective, and the class is going to be reduced to hunteresque skill useage.
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