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  1. #1

    Warden's In Helm's Deep

    Most every other class has a running thread about wishes, fears, and ideas for the class changes that will come along with Helm's Deep. I figure we should have one too.

    Big things for me:

    No new clicky/cooldown skills, what we have now is more than enough (5 jav skills, careful step/ambush/crit strike, 2 panic buttons, WotW[lol]).
    No new cooldowns on gambit effects. Interrupts and shield tactics are rather poorly implemented, please don't continue to expand on this pattern.
    Keep the class as a proactive one. Please don't add block/parry/evade/crit/defeat response gated abilities, or give us force-taunts (DCs is too garbage to count now) or threat copies.
    PLEASE put us on the extreme high end of the ~20 skills per class approximation after traiting.




    While I don't think its perfect, the stacking gambit effects is a nice, proactive mechanic that would be fun to expand upon. Assailment has Offensive strike granting susceptibility to combination stike, which grants susceptibility to boar's rush, recklessness has power attack granting susceptibility to mighty blow, which grants susceptibility to unerring strike, and determination has the basic, expert, and enduring armour, shield, evasion bonuses. Expanding on these concepts for different bonuses would be a great addition to the class, in my opinion. An example that was tossed around long ago was fierce resolve and Resolution in Determination being given an aggro component, and using Fierce resolve would give a mob susceptibility to Resolution, greatly increasing the threat dealt by Resolution, and resolution granting a susceptibility to Exultation of Battle, greatly increasing the threat dealt by EoB (of course nerf EoBs base threat at the same time).


    Nerf DC

    Nerf us in the moors (i do expect trait tree's making classes potentially more 1 dimensional to help in this respect).



    Post up your concerns, hopes, etc for the class with HD


    I almost forgot, Ferrets.
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  2. #2
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    I would personally like to see our javelin skills simplified so that they provide a buff/debuff based on what stance we are in. I would also like Assailment be fleshed out to be more utility and buffing as well as the current dps it provides. Fire and light oil should also change the damage type of skills when in Assailment, It would make carvings+light oil a nice combination.

    Crit strike needs to go away or change, minimal damage under a situational circumstance makes it worthless, even with the legacy.

    Forced March could use some tweaking, I would also like to see that become marginally useful in combat situations, otherwise I just use my warsteed/horse.


    And of course I want to see itemization geared towards the Warden. Get us some truly competitive tanking items and revamp/remove unnecessary legacies.

    If nothing else, please keep this class advanced in nature. I personally enjoy the complexity and don't want the trait tree changes to over simplify the class.


    * more to come as I muddle over the topic more
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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    Keep the class as a proactive one. Please don't add block/parry/evade/crit/defeat response gated abilities, or give us force-taunts (DCs is too garbage to count now) or threat copies
    this is probably my biggest fear. I really don't want to be stepping on the toe's of the guardians tbh.

    but saying that, I wouldn't mind having some of the traits (for example heals on block) changed to a skill. like a critical strike for all likes. stun in reckless? well more damage! block in determination? have some moral! somthing in assailment? have something else!!!

    those reactive things are just a bit to much Ez mode at times imo. I think thats my limit though of what I would allow reactive.

    While I don't think its perfect, the stacking gambit effects is a nice, proactive mechanic that would be fun to expand upon.
    I also really like this mechanism. but I would like more promotion in it. just stacking the highest end is good enough, maybe have the former gambits buff the later ones? but yes, I like this mechanism very much, keeps our rotation from ever getting stale.


    Nerf DC
    yes
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  4. #4
    Remove all clicky skills including javelin skills, move them into assailment gambits, for ambush it can be a gambit that is prepped with battle mastery and critical strike can be queued with a 4 icon gambit with 2 masteries on the run in.

    Never Surrender should be scrapped alltogether, too OP.

    Defiant challenge should be scrapped and and replaced with a new gambit (21323) that needs to be stacked on top of shields up/shield mastery/shield tactics. If properly stacked then it grants 30% mitigation rather than the current 40 and lasts for 20 seconds and if not properly stacked it gives 10% mitigation and lasts 10 seconds, possibly add/change a legacy to add a further 10 seconds duration.

    With regards to interrupting, remove the cooldown and interrupt on current gambits and give us a single 3 or 4 icon interrupt gambit.

    No cooldowns, no clickies.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldo65 View Post
    No cooldowns, no clickies.
    thats how I thought the warden was when I first started playing him. tbh, I'm semi-glad they arn't. it would feel a little boring having no clickies. I also really don't like using gambit builders anymore, too slow. I'm very happy knowing I can do combo's of masteries or just 1 gambit builer with masteries and get gambits off very slow. if EVERTHING was tied to gambits, I would agree the choice of gambits to use would be much harder, a lodes of quick time desicion making of what goes where. but playing it, I think hitting most of the same 3 buttons (masteries are on cooldown all the time now...) more might get a little boring.

    maybe they could expand that a little bit. not just 3 gambit builders. why not have the javalin gambit it's own skill? or a fist one that buffs mits and doesn't dot? or an extra shield one that buffs crit rating? I dunno, just sparce out the basic skills too a little.

    then I wouldn't mind everything tied together in the gambit system. but they do need to promote the use of smaller gambits more at times. so those arn't just ignored.

    tbh, I hate intterupt being tied to a gambit. I would have that as a clicky too, unable to intterupt animation (deal with it). intterupting now is just silly, needs something sorted, I think the easiest solution is the safest.

    I'm also hopeing for battle memory II as well. that really is great clicky work for the warden. to use a gambit to make a clicky is epic! really fleshes out your possiblities. ofc, it means they have to balance the gambits better but I love using battle memory! I just hate having to save a slot for something key (intterupt/corruption) then unable to use it on other stuff. a second battle memory would welcomed by me.
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  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by bohbashum View Post
    thats how I thought the warden was when I first started playing him. tbh, I'm semi-glad they arn't. it would feel a little boring having no clickies. I also really don't like using gambit builders anymore, too slow. I'm very happy knowing I can do combo's of masteries or just 1 gambit builer with masteries and get gambits off very slow. if EVERTHING was tied to gambits, I would agree the choice of gambits to use would be much harder, a lodes of quick time desicion making of what goes where. but playing it, I think hitting most of the same 3 buttons (masteries are on cooldown all the time now...) more might get a little boring.

    maybe they could expand that a little bit. not just 3 gambit builders. why not have the javalin gambit it's own skill? or a fist one that buffs mits and doesn't dot? or an extra shield one that buffs crit rating? I dunno, just sparce out the basic skills too a little.

    then I wouldn't mind everything tied together in the gambit system. but they do need to promote the use of smaller gambits more at times. so those arn't just ignored.

    tbh, I hate intterupt being tied to a gambit. I would have that as a clicky too, unable to intterupt animation (deal with it). intterupting now is just silly, needs something sorted, I think the easiest solution is the safest.

    I'm also hopeing for battle memory II as well. that really is great clicky work for the warden. to use a gambit to make a clicky is epic! really fleshes out your possiblities. ofc, it means they have to balance the gambits better but I love using battle memory! I just hate having to save a slot for something key (intterupt/corruption) then unable to use it on other stuff. a second battle memory would welcomed by me.
    Interrupting as it is now requires anticipation/very fast reflexes. The easiest and safest solution is to KISS and keep it as it is and not dumb it down with clickies.

    As for javelin skills, those are the only means Wardens have of picking out specific mobs at range and grabbing them to tank as opposed to trying to grab them with javelin auto-attacks or swapping to assailment and trying to grab by wasting masteries. Take those javelin skills away and there is no option to try and pick up individual mobs at range on a pull. I further submit that Javelin Toss is needed as a clicky at the lower levels when gambits are limited/non-existent.

    Please think about the impact of what your changes mean in the context of different roles, traitlines, solo, PvE/PvMP, 3-man, 6-man and raid T1/T2 content. Some aspects of the class do not change, but other seemingly minor things make a difference depending on the situation.
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  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    Nerf DC

    Nerf us in the moors (i do expect trait tree's making classes potentially more 1 dimensional to help in this respect).



    Post up your concerns, hopes, etc for the class with HD


    I almost forgot, Ferrets.

    Why nerf it? If your running a dps build, all it does is give you heavy armor mits for a few seconds. No big deal...

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Jas2112 View Post
    Why nerf it? If your running a dps build, all it does is give you heavy armor mits for a few seconds. No big deal...
    30s =/= a few seconds, especially in a dps build, where you can kill basically anything in the game besides a raid boss in that span of time.

    DC is too powerful for a 30s duration. Put it at 15s duration, or reduce the +mits to +25%, imo. I'd also rather have it give a buff based on stance, so that it doesn't allow you to tank when you're in a dps stance, similar to how pledge has been altered for guards.




    Another thing I forgot to mention: make Way of the Warden Viable. Dropping the cooldown to 2-3 minutes would be one decent option, but i think some more creative solutions would be better.
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  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    DC is too powerful for a 30s duration.
    Is it? It is not life saving skill, as activating lasts about 2s. Enough to get you killed if things are rough in 6 men, not mentioning raid. It is proactive skill used mainly when warden makes large pull. And it is useful almost only then. If you need it in raid in boss fight, than it means it is a wipe unless boss dies in this 30s.

    Of course, one can say wardens are OP, nerf them, take away DC, lower self heals, remove stance dance. But for what purpose?

    In raids good guard is better than very good warden (clicky aggro/challange instead of gambits, where sometimes there is no possiblity to prepare them). Better mits for 80% of time. Less avoidences. No real self heals, but in t2 raids warden's self heal is not something special, it hardly counters worse mits (and counters it only because of better b/p/e requireing constant good rotation, while as guard you need constant good heals coming from healer, yeah, a lot of effort...).

    We are advanced class. I expect, that when one plays advanced class, he is better than the one playing basic class. But only when he does things correctly. When he does them incorrectly, he is worse than one playing basic class. As simple as that.
    So when you feel you are OP, it might be you reached mastery in playing this class. So, you SHOULD be better than 99% of server population in what you are doing.
    But not everyone reached mastery. I bet less than 10% of capped wardens reached it. For the remaining 90% things like slightly OP DC is to be or not to be. Without it no one will take them ever into instance.
    I saw many bad guards hardly tanking BfE t1, or tanking 6 men instances without greater difficulties. With good heals they were able to do their job.
    I saw also many wardens who refuse to do group content, or do it only as dps, becasue they can't tank it. And i saw only few wardens on my server tanking willingly.

    It means something.
    For me it means that after wardens' nerf 1% of wardens' population will tank instances. The rest will grind hytbold dailies.

    2 I agree that Way of the Warden is way to weak. But in fact JoDF is only slightly better. No one takes wardens for AoE damage, as there is nothing like wardens' AoE. Few aoe gambits we have and JoDF is laughable in terms of AoE dps.

    3 we need few javelin clickies. No matter what they do, sometimes it is only way to quickly aggro something in range. We don't need more; but it will hurt if we will have less.

    4 OPness in the moors, stance dance. Well, i think i wrote it somewhere some time ago. Wardens are very difficult to kill (almost imposisble to solo). But, hey, it is exactly same as in pve- wardens are very good for solo content.
    But in group, you might agree or not, but no matter how much phys mastery warden has, he is one of worst dpsers in the freeps arsenal. They are taken (killed) last not only becasue they are difficult to kill, but also threat (to the creeps) they generate is lesser than any other freeps class.
    As dps creep, when i see group of freeps, i want to kill cappie, for no more heals and rezes. I want to kill healers for no more heals. I want to kill lms for no more kiting. I want to kill hunters, because they are easy to kill. Than I kill champs, as i don't like them, than guards. And than i have time to see if there is any funny warden running trying to kill green creeps with his funny gambit attacks.
    Yes, wardens need nerf.

    Please, Spelunker do not judge class by how it is played by some master (I expect, you), first warden in the server. Judge it by how avarage player plays it. Right now this class is simillar to all others. Still to difficult for some (and it is good, not evryone have to play every class).

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galwir View Post
    Is it? It is not life saving skill, as activating lasts about 2s. Enough to get you killed if things are rough in 6 men
    you learn to pop it early enough.

    what ruff 6mans? being such a pro-active class you should know whats comeing up and what your cooldowns and hots are timeing out and shizzle like that.

    in PvP. it's life saving, then 30seconds god mode. and if you get to exploit it, can be almost always. I was actually able to time it purfectly when doing BfE T2 to get it twice in the beginning with the stun. and multiple timeing with the catapults going down. it's so, so, so OP.
    Of course, one can say wardens are OP, nerf them, take away DC, lower self heals, remove stance dance. But for what purpose?
    PvP mainly.

    we are stepping on the toe's on guardians in PvE too. we're a little too good at times and even raids would rather have wardens at times. when the guardian is almost pure tanky tank, I'd expect it to be special.

    We are advanced class.
    balencing for skill in a MMO is never a good idea. get off your high horse. mmo's just arn't that skillful compared to other games that really have to think about that FPS games and racing games.

    warden just isn't as hard as people make out.

    For me it means that after wardens' nerf 1% of wardens' population will tank instances. The rest will grind hytbold dailies.
    warden was much, much worse before U6 (great river update) in RoI. they were still played and still did good. we're not asking for a huge nurf back to those days. self healing is too high. we can stack hots and dots too easily and are rewarded for them too much.

    3 we need few javelin clickies. No matter what they do, sometimes it is only way to quickly aggro something in range.
    resounding challenge / call to battle.

    there could also be gambits that do that job. we don't really need javelin clickies tbh.

    4 OPness in the moors, stance dance. Well, i think i wrote it somewhere some time ago. Wardens are very difficult to kill (almost imposisble to solo). But, hey, it is exactly same as in pve- wardens are very good for solo content.
    I'm so glad you don't balance games professionally :/

    you express horrible justification.

    no class should be able to dominate ALL enemy classes 1v1. or even 2v1. or even 3v1 -_-

    we are useful in groups too. thinking we're not is kinda silly.

    Right now this class is simillar to all others. Still to difficult for some (and it is good, not evryone have to play every class).
    I've been running round moors naked spamming fist exploit on people and popping only DC and NS to survive and people ignore me. I've earnt more renown than most creeps that day and I still won some spars. we are in no way the same as others.
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  11. #11
    Yeah, one can agree with things that other do not. All your arguments are not apropriate for 90% of capped wardens on my server. Read my post again. I'm not talking about those who reached mastery in controlling warden, I'm talking about majority.
    But, of course, maybe on your server there are only extremly well experienced wardens, OP players.

    Quote Originally Posted by bohbashum View Post
    I've earnt more renown than most creeps that day and I still won some spars.
    And? On my server top creeps are able to get about 12k infamy per full day of playing without delving buffs. RKs with same buffs are able to get twice as much; with buffs more than 30k per day.
    It is really difficult to get same infamy on creep as renown as freep. Everyone could saw this as long as dailystats were on.

    Also, you can say you are op as warden; but in the moors survivalability is only and one thing that makes this class in par with others. RKs are OP, same minis or lm or champs (of course for someone who knows how to play this classes), but definitely not wardens.
    You can survive, but really, not much more.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Galwir View Post
    Is it? It is not life saving skill, as activating lasts about 2s. Enough to get you killed if things are rough in 6 men, not mentioning raid. It is proactive skill used mainly when warden makes large pull. And it is useful almost only then. If you need it in raid in boss fight, than it means it is a wipe unless boss dies in this 30s.
    Of course, one can say wardens are OP, nerf them, take away DC, lower self heals, remove stance dance. But for what purpose?
    If DC kept the same bonus in determination and were reduced to 15s for the mit bonus, it would be brought on par with other long cooldown survival skills such as Pledge, Cappy bubble, and the RK inc dmg reduction bubble. Other than shield of the Dunedain in the Moors (which combines with audacity and makes the target immune to damage, nice thinking Devs), DC provides just as much protection or more while active, but remains active for TWICE as long as any other similar panic skill. If you can't sort out a tough pull, or survive a panic situation where the animation finishes and be back on your feet (or the rest of the group) in 15s, things were probably so screwed up that you don't deserve to survive the encounter anyway. The purpose is to bring this cooldown into line with what other classes have. Right now if an instance goes sideways and I DC, if the group survives about 5s, they'll be able to get back on their feet, healed up, and resume what they were doing in the next 10s, which leaves 15s or so of superfluous panic skill. I've seen too many times wardens pop DC for a 'tough' pull that isn't so tough, spam EoB for 25 seconds, and then just turtle up and spam their self-heal gambits for the rest of the encounter. You talk later of this being an advanced class, but this skill enables gameplay choices that make it even more simple that the 'basic' Guardian class.

    In raids good guard is better than very good warden (clicky aggro/challange instead of gambits, where sometimes there is no possiblity to prepare them). Better mits for 80% of time. Less avoidences. No real self heals, but in t2 raids warden's self heal is not something special, it hardly counters worse mits (and counters it only because of better b/p/e requireing constant good rotation, while as guard you need constant good heals coming from healer, yeah, a lot of effort...).
    I think in raid scenarios guardians and wardens are pretty decently balanced atm (aside from DC). If anything wardens are still the best on a DPS race scenario since 1 resist on CtD or Engage and a group with a guard is SoL, where warden's can keep pace with any dps (Barring wonky raid layouts where the dps is in a different group) and probably only require slightly more heals than a guard while doing so, and conversely in normal or light dps scenarios probably require less heals. There is exactly one scenario where a Guard is clearly better than a warden in current end-game, and that is tanking both BfE troll together by 1 tank.

    If we switch this to 3/6 mans, there really isn't a situation where warden's aren't the top choice. There are probably only a handful of 3/6 mans where a warden can't function as the sole source of heals for the entire group. As was a big fear and huge topic for discussion back in RoI leading up the the U6 revamp, the class has been balanced for raid content, but this leaves what they can do in many 6-man instances and basically every 3-man completely over the top.

    We are advanced class. I expect, that when one plays advanced class, he is better than the one playing basic class. But only when he does things correctly. When he does them incorrectly, he is worse than one playing basic class. As simple as that.
    So when you feel you are OP, it might be you reached mastery in playing this class. So, you SHOULD be better than 99% of server population in what you are doing.
    But not everyone reached mastery. I bet less than 10% of capped wardens reached it. For the remaining 90% things like slightly OP DC is to be or not to be. Without it no one will take them ever into instance.
    I saw many bad guards hardly tanking BfE t1, or tanking 6 men instances without greater difficulties. With good heals they were able to do their job.
    I saw also many wardens who refuse to do group content, or do it only as dps, becasue they can't tank it. And i saw only few wardens on my server tanking willingly.

    It means something.
    For me it means that after wardens' nerf 1% of wardens' population will tank instances. The rest will grind hytbold dailies.
    I absolutely agree that the class should be accessible to many players, not just those who are the 'top tier' of players at their class. The problem is some things, particularly Defiant Challenge in its current form make it so that there is little incentive to get better at the class. People who started and levels a main-tanking class should be willing to spend the time to learn how to do this. If people are unwilling to let a newly minted 85 warden who hasn't tanked before do BfE, that is their fault, and the warden should seek out people willing to help them learn and willing to accept a few wipes. If the warden's aren't willing to tank out of fear of a wipe, or because its too 'hard' to learn all the gambits and how to use them, thats their fault and they've dug their own grave for grouping. Its no different than an LM or any other class. Yes it takes practice and experience to keep up SI on a raid along with maintaining debuffs and whatever other magical benefits that crazy class provides. If you're learning how to play in a group, absolutely people should be understanding of mistakes and willing to accept deaths/wipes because of them. If keeping track of all those things isn't something you're interested in as an LM because it requires too much of you, guess what, maybe Hytbolt is exactly what you should be doing.
    2 I agree that Way of the Warden is way to weak. But in fact JoDF is only slightly better. No one takes wardens for AoE damage, as there is nothing like wardens' AoE. Few aoe gambits we have and JoDF is laughable in terms of AoE dps.
    Agreed, JoDF could use some love too. I won't call warden AoE dps complete ####, as I've managed some decent parses going full AoE, but it is incredibly boring and repetetive. Perhaps adding an effect to JoDF that would make all targets hit vulnerable to Warden AoE skills for 15s afterwards would be a decent option?

    3 we need few javelin clickies. No matter what they do, sometimes it is only way to quickly aggro something in range. We don't need more; but it will hurt if we will have less.
    My pie in the sky concept for warden's involves no stances or clickies, builders that can be used at any range, and a vast expansion to total gambits where some gambits are melee, some are ranged, some dps, some defensive, some threat, etc. but all within one (or no) stance. So long as we have melee only stances (and a ranged only stance) the class with a JAVELIN for a legendary item needs to always have access to some ranged skills.
    4 OPness in the moors, stance dance. Well, i think i wrote it somewhere some time ago. Wardens are very difficult to kill (almost imposisble to solo). But, hey, it is exactly same as in pve- wardens are very good for solo content.
    But in group, you might agree or not, but no matter how much phys mastery warden has, he is one of worst dpsers in the freeps arsenal. They are taken (killed) last not only becasue they are difficult to kill, but also threat (to the creeps) they generate is lesser than any other freeps class.
    As dps creep, when i see group of freeps, i want to kill cappie, for no more heals and rezes. I want to kill healers for no more heals. I want to kill lms for no more kiting. I want to kill hunters, because they are easy to kill. Than I kill champs, as i don't like them, than guards. And than i have time to see if there is any funny warden running trying to kill green creeps with his funny gambit attacks.
    Yes, wardens need nerf.
    As spear warden is probably about the only class in the game that can take down ANY unsupported target in the moors. Much of this is thanks to the inc healing debuff from the spear lord's armour, but warden dps is VERY competetive with any other primary dps class out in the moors, other than an unmolested hunter i suppose. I don't group freepside, and rarely join group v group fights, though i frequently stay mounted up and watch them from a distance. If I see a relatively close fight where it looks like creeps are going to win, especially thanks to a bit too much heals for the freeps, I'll stealth up, find the biggest, ugliest War Leader I can find, and ambush them and see if I can nuke them in recklessness and then leave. Some creeps are on to this, and since I'm ungrouped and get no heal support and loathe DCing, if the raid decides to target me i die in relatively short order, but just as frequently I can take out a high ranked, kiting WL, with a Defiler HoTing them up. Presumably a burg swapping from the unseen set, to the inc healing debuff set can do the same, as could a hunter dropping their burn-hot/dev mag pots, but i don't think many other classes could do the same without dps/cc help. I've asked around a bit in the past about what various classes can manage for dps in a typical group encounter, and hunters absolutely do more than me if they aren't getting attacked, but in assailment with a 3-5 gambit rotation that makes me depressed to use, i'm on par or better than most any other class, and in reckless, coupled with the inc healing debuff I'm doing more effective dps than just about any one. If you don't think Warden's can be one of the most valuable DPS classes in the moors in a group fight, those you've seen are doing it wrong.

    [quote[Please, Spelunker do not judge class by how it is played by some master (I expect, you), first warden in the server. Judge it by how avarage player plays it. Right now this class is simillar to all others. Still to difficult for some (and it is good, not evryone have to play every class).[/QUOTE]
    I play the class well, but I'll make no claims to mastery of it, which is why this is the only class I can consistently stick to playing. The problem right now is there is little incentive for people to move past being an 'average' warden. Everything besides BfE T2C and FttLM T2C is incredibly easy, and an average warden who can keep up 50% of their buff gambits and spam EoB and hit DC if things get remotely dicey can be extremely effective. When we move down to 3/6-mans even bad ones can get the job done quite well, and again there is little incentive to actually get better. The problem is that a few things (EoB, celebration of skill, Restoration, 4-blue crit immunity, DC) are too powerful, and a warden need only learn how to spam EoB and stack self-hots to do most things in the game. Reduce these things a bit, and even buff the potency of avoidance skills/defensive skills and warden's will be rewarded for learnign the class more fully. Of course we also need more legitimate content.
    Quote Originally Posted by bohbashum View Post
    we are stepping on the toe's on guardians in PvE too. we're a little too good at times and even raids would rather have wardens at times. when the guardian is almost pure tanky tank, I'd expect it to be special.
    I could care less about 'stepping on guardians toes'. We're both main tanks, if we can both do it, who cares? The problem is that warden's who can barely warden can do it too, with little incentive to learn how to actually warden.


    balencing for skill in a MMO is never a good idea. get off your high horse. mmo's just arn't that skillful compared to other games that really have to think about that FPS games and racing games.

    warden just isn't as hard as people make out.
    I find racing games far easier than MMOs, the hand/mouse-eye coordination and reactions times required of elite fps players is truly impressive, though its an entirely different type of 'skill'.

    resounding challenge / call to battle.

    there could also be gambits that do that job. we don't really need javelin clickies tbh.
    See above. Also a gambit or two would need to be added with no AoE component in that line if you are dead-set on dropping the clicky skills.
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    I find racing games far easier than MMOs, the hand/mouse-eye coordination and reactions times required of elite fps players is truly impressive, though its an entirely different type of 'skill'.
    it's more tactics based. I don't think warden is "hard" like what many people make out. and we should be treated special because it.

    better examples. slow chess compared to bop it. in reaction times, lotro is definatly one of the slower mmo going around and with very nice skill que's too.

    Also a gambit or two would need to be added with no AoE component in that line if you are dead-set on dropping the clicky skills.
    I wouldn't want them all removed. but I understand why some people do. I do think we have too many clicker javalins at times and we can easily remove many.
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  14. #14
    only things I want changed on wardens for helms deep
    • remove min range for assailment gambits
    • fix itemization at all levels to agi if you are ending the grace period


    outside of that I think we are fine as we are so leave us be.
    of course with big battles coming it would be nice if you changed all items at lower levels to reflect the current main stat trend. ie items with equal parts might and agi are obsolete as might has less value now with the main stat trend. feel free of course to continue the grace period or just say wardens are now both agi and might I don't mind the extra phys mastery.
    Welleg - brandywine, Kelleg/Gelleg - Landroval
    WARNING: leveling a warden may cause you to neglect your other characters.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by gelleg View Post
    [*]remove min range for assailment gambits
    Not only this. Whole assailment needs some time, as it is mostly pvp stance, with really little use in pve. To few useful gambits, almost no legacies dedicated for it. And greater fun (at least for me) dpsing in recklessness.

    Also, I think that there should be some gambits in recklessnes that lower generated aggro. Right now red traited well geard warden generates so much aggro that almost no tank can hold it. Stance dancing to get this 'massive' -20% aggro for 30s in assailment (or 99% for 10s, lol) (with cd on stances, so wasting some dps time) is almost pointless. When I'm not sure about tank, I just stop dpsing for a while in longer fights, but i think thats not a perfect solution we all want.

    One more thing about DC- i agree it should have different effects depending on what stance you are in. Making it last 15s= it might work, if it will be immidiate skill (it lasts less, but we can use it precisely in moment when we need it, not when we expect we will need it, or it is 1s to late, and we are dead).

  16. #16
    Way of the Warden
    Toggle skill, halve/change/eliminate ICMR, keep the rest as is. Cost: % of Max Morale Equal to the Number of Icons used to build gambits while under it. ( 5- length gambit takes 5% to put into Battle Memory then 10% on execution of the 5-length gambit in Battlememory assuming WoTW is active throughout).

    Personally I would like to have clickies that require the Warden to think before/while using as opposed to spamming on cooldown.
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  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by WhimsicalPacifist View Post
    Way of the Warden
    Toggle skill, halve/change/eliminate ICMR, keep the rest as is. Cost: % of Max Morale Equal to the Number of Icons used to build gambits while under it. ( 5- length gambit takes 5% to put into Battle Memory then 10% on execution of the 5-length gambit in Battlememory assuming WoTW is active throughout).

    Personally I would like to have clickies that require the Warden to think before/while using as opposed to spamming on cooldown.
    I'm not sure i fully understand what you mean by this. Are you saying we should be taking over half our morale in damage over about 20s to maintain a buff that does little more than give -10% attack duration? That skill would hit us for as much or more morale than champ CBR, without nearly equal buffs. Nevermind that it wouldn't be viable for tanking, unless you have a different use depending on stance/traiting (like champs get)?

    This doesn't require thinking if thats what you mean, it just means we only use it with revealing mark, or an undertaxed healer.
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  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    I'm not sure i fully understand what you mean by this. Are you saying we should be taking over half our morale in damage over about 20s to maintain a buff that does little more than give -10% attack duration? That skill would hit us for as much or more morale than champ CBR, without nearly equal buffs. Nevermind that it wouldn't be viable for tanking, unless you have a different use depending on stance/traiting (like champs get)?

    This doesn't require thinking if thats what you mean, it just means we only use it with revealing mark, or an undertaxed healer.
    Either WotW needs to imply buffs based on whatever role you're specced into, or it needs to provide a logistically modelled set of relatively powerful generic bonuses just like the original WotW did.

  19. #19
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    First, let me say that I expect all classes to be pretty much unrecognizable during the first two weeks/month of these changes for long time players, at least. If you come back after that, you may as well roll a lower level to relearn the class.

    Anyone else notice how much those trait trees look like what you have in SWTOR for the classes? In that game, you have Tank, DPS and MORE DPS as the traits for a Shadow.

    Here is the short list.

    I expect stance dancing to disappear with the changes in the trait structure. You have to be out of combat to change traits and more likely than not, stances now. (Mind, you, not necessarily a good change.)

    I expect some of the names will be familiar, but you will get your skills available based on how deep you go in the line, so no Conviction when you are traited Red or Yellow. Also no UnErring Strike for Green or Yellow line.

    I look for MAYBE one clickie for javelins range in all stances, to allow for pulling.. also maybe JODF kind of a high level trait tree in what we call A$$ailment now.

    I HOPE they dont break the class. (I expect they will break all classes.)

    I HOPE for what we call A$$ailment now to totally eliminate having to run into minimum range on all skills, making all of them the same.

    I HOPE we get the new Warden Dev diary in just over two weeks, to reduce speculation and mis-information.

    I hope they take that silly statue in MD and make it into a statue of Steve, with a ferret on his shoulder and another running up his pant leg.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darlgon View Post
    First, let me say that I expect all classes to be pretty much unrecognizable during the first two weeks/month of these changes for long time players, at least. If you come back after that, you may as well roll a lower level to relearn the class.

    Anyone else notice how much those trait trees look like what you have in SWTOR for the classes? In that game, you have Tank, DPS and MORE DPS as the traits for a Shadow.

    Here is the short list.

    I expect stance dancing to disappear with the changes in the trait structure. You have to be out of combat to change traits and more likely than not, stances now. (Mind, you, not necessarily a good change.)

    I expect some of the names will be familiar, but you will get your skills available based on how deep you go in the line, so no Conviction when you are traited Red or Yellow. Also no UnErring Strike for Green or Yellow line.

    I look for MAYBE one clickie for javelins range in all stances, to allow for pulling.. also maybe JODF kind of a high level trait tree in what we call A$$ailment now.

    I HOPE they dont break the class. (I expect they will break all classes.)

    I HOPE for what we call A$$ailment now to totally eliminate having to run into minimum range on all skills, making all of them the same.

    I HOPE we get the new Warden Dev diary in just over two weeks, to reduce speculation and mis-information.

    I hope they take that silly statue in MD and make it into a statue of Steve, with a ferret on his shoulder and another running up his pant leg.
    Locking stance dancing would point blank break a large portion of the remaining fluency of the class.
    Although, with how heavy I'm under the assumption they are changing things, I'm wondering whether we'll even have our current stances.

  21. #21
    Helm's Deep Beta starts shortly. The developers already changed the Warden and all other classes. Major revisions almost never occur in Beta. Only testing and fixing the worst mistakes (hopefully) remain. If you wanted to affect the outcome, you are a few months too late.

 

 

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