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  1. #1

    Appropriate Warden self-gimping in the Moors

    With no other endgame available, I've spent 95% of my game time for the past months in the Moors. While I'm out there, I don't just "play to win"; I won't start a fight I know I'm going to win (such as with greenies), and even with high ranked creeps, I usually wait for them to start it. I don't like that wardens have this unbeatable OP reputation, so I at least figure let the creep decide if they want to fight. The problem I'm having is after a creep loses too many fights, they just run right on by every time I see them. So in order to try and level the playing field and make fights more fair, I try to limit the tools I use in a fight.

    - I always trait spear-only with the capstone
    - I use 4 moors yellow armor for the slow and 2 red for the bonus bleed damage
    - My equipment leaves me at around 14k morale and 33k physical mastery
    - I run almost entirely in recklessness, never using any avoidance gambits
    - I won't use never Surrender or Defiant Challenge
    - I *limit* the use of Restoration (so limit self healing to the minimum)

    Doing those things, it's pretty predictable to whom I will lose fights. With good wargs and reavers, I'll usually lose my 14k morale to their burst damage before I can get off enough bleeds. One self heal and It'll be 50/50 with the better wargs and reavers. If I use it twice, I'll generally win. War leaders are pretty close to the same unless they turtle (similar to the way some wardens like to play).For defilers, I still use recklessness but balance my healing to theirs. Black arrows are pretty unpredictable depending on the player--if they start it and start to lose, they run so I use Assailment a lot. High ranking spiders still seem like a fair fight to me when I stance dance and use self heals. Shoot, even the weavers cool down skills seem to balance ours out fairly well.

    The one alternative I'm considering trying is using more vitality jewelry and talking out the one self heal I'll use during a fight. If I swap out gear and hit 17-18k morale, it seems it would give me enough morale to keep my from using even one self heal.

    Anyway, aside from those machismo power-wardens (joking--don't take offense!) that creeps hate because they take a group of 6 to burn down, how do the mainly solo players limit the use of your skills to keep things even enough to still be a challenge?
    Physalia of Landroval

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Sinful_Maelstrom View Post
    With no other endgame available, I've spent 95% of my game time for the past months in the Moors. While I'm out there, I don't just "play to win"; I won't start a fight I know I'm going to win (such as with greenies), and even with high ranked creeps, I usually wait for them to start it. I don't like that wardens have this unbeatable OP reputation, so I at least figure let the creep decide if they want to fight. The problem I'm having is after a creep loses too many fights, they just run right on by every time I see them. So in order to try and level the playing field and make fights more fair, I try to limit the tools I use in a fight.

    - I always trait spear-only with the capstone
    - I use 4 moors yellow armor for the slow and 2 red for the bonus bleed damage
    - My equipment leaves me at around 14k morale and 33k physical mastery
    - I run almost entirely in recklessness, never using any avoidance gambits
    - I won't use never Surrender or Defiant Challenge
    - I *limit* the use of Restoration (so limit self healing to the minimum)

    Doing those things, it's pretty predictable to whom I will lose fights. With good wargs and reavers, I'll usually lose my 14k morale to their burst damage before I can get off enough bleeds. One self heal and It'll be 50/50 with the better wargs and reavers. If I use it twice, I'll generally win. War leaders are pretty close to the same unless they turtle (similar to the way some wardens like to play).For defilers, I still use recklessness but balance my healing to theirs. Black arrows are pretty unpredictable depending on the player--if they start it and start to lose, they run so I use Assailment a lot. High ranking spiders still seem like a fair fight to me when I stance dance and use self heals. Shoot, even the weavers cool down skills seem to balance ours out fairly well.

    The one alternative I'm considering trying is using more vitality jewelry and talking out the one self heal I'll use during a fight. If I swap out gear and hit 17-18k morale, it seems it would give me enough morale to keep my from using even one self heal.

    Anyway, aside from those machismo power-wardens (joking--don't take offense!) that creeps hate because they take a group of 6 to burn down, how do the mainly solo players limit the use of your skills to keep things even enough to still be a challenge?
    When you talk about these Wargs/Reavers, do you mean with them using Wrath/AtO or Hips/Tendon shred, or without?

    Self-limitations are all about trying new things to see what styles fit how you like playing. Do you want to still be able to win 80% of the time without self-heals? Do you want to be able to win 50% of the time? How hard do you want to try via gambits? I assume you want to stay spear line, and don't want to start using DC or NS, are you open to even further gear limitations and being more liberal with Restoration/Conviction (while staying in Reckless/Assailment, ofc)?

    here's a post I made a while back about this topic. My 'full' build has gotten better from then, I and am using it again, but I went entirely with this limited build or dropping even more jewelry while progressing from r7-r8.
    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    The relatively complete build I would sport in the moors (I'm not really prioritizing finishing it at all though):


    What I've been using, and will continue to use for the foreseeable future:


    I'm having a lot of fun out there right now.
    Personally I stopped using wall of steel almost entirely (or reckless shield mastery) around r5, the potency of those reflects versus dps classes is absolutely silly.

    I've stopped using bleeds in any fight I don't think will be interrupted, other than top tier/rank players, if I have all my gear on.

    No self-heals in a 1v1 unless they've popped a fight changing cooldown (wrath or MT and kiting being the primary examples, MT and staying in melee is still quite winnable without heals).

    I quick swap to 2 cosmetic items, My third age LIs, and drop a couple earrings if I have time if i've spotted a solo creep before they spot me. I did stop going full-time with the limited build after r8 because I felt I had to self-heal too much, particularly when OPs were 4 red, and 95% of creeps didn't recognize what I was doing and since my dps was garbage had time to call in help, or kite to npcs, etc.

    Right now with full gear, I primarily look for duo/trios of creeps that I can fight without DC/NS, modest self-heals (only recklessness or assailment, ofc), and no reflects.

    Good luck out there.
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  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    When you talk about these Wargs/Reavers, do you mean with them using Wrath/AtO or Hips/Tendon shred, or without?


    Right now with full gear, I primarily look for duo/trios of creeps that I can fight without DC/NS, modest self-heals (only recklessness or assailment, ofc), and no reflects.
    I'm not familiar enough with creep skills or pay enough attention to figure out what they're using (beyond impale--a store bought low rank can be a fair challenge). I would hope the creep is pulling no punches, otherwise it's hard to gauge how much I should hold back.

    I've never really used WoS or SM in fights, even though I never really thought about the strong effect they have. I've typically been fighting with bleeds and few other skills. I think when you mention my play-style, that's about where I'm trying to figure out what other people think is fair. I refuse to trait blue and won't swap stances until a couple of more creeps show up. So I guess my dilemma is do I hold back on gear or do I hold back on skills. I'm leaning towards skills right now. It's hard to part with all those pretty shiny pieces that were lucky drops. I think I like the AGI build though. So I guess what I'm looking for is other warden opinions (since we're more familiar with our class than creeps) on what skills are fair (besides NS and DC of course) with a AGI heavy build (not to the point of glass cannon).

    But, it is also nice just to hear what other wardens are doing, especially those with varied play styles. It brings up interesting points and might open up my style to shift around.

    Oh, lastly, I personally feel that a 50-50 win/loss is a good start against well play creeps. The problem with that is do I limit myself even more when running across mid-ranked or under-played creeps? I generally don't even bother to do anything but watch fight-clubs; it's just hard for me to engage in a fight where I'm constantly thinking about pulling punches during the middle of the fight.

    Thanks for getting me to clarify my original post.
    Physalia of Landroval

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Sinful_Maelstrom View Post
    I'm not familiar enough with creep skills or pay enough attention to figure out what they're using (beyond impale--a store bought low rank can be a fair challenge). I would hope the creep is pulling no punches, otherwise it's hard to gauge how much I should hold back.
    Paying attention to what skills they're using and learning icons/animations is a big part of improving in the moors. Wrath is a R8 skill with the same Icon as the 'relentless' buff that every reaver has (+20% to mitigations, as they lose health the mit boost drops, and they gain an equivalent damage boost). Wrath lasts 30 seconds, and while active, for every hit they land on you, they will gain 2% of their maximum morale, so the easy way to notice if they've used it is if they're health bar nearly stops moving. Your dps will be enough to prevent them from healing back up at all, but you won't make much progress towards them dying while active. I can't speak for Landy, but on E its quite frowned upon in 1v1s. If your reaver fights are typically around 30 seconds, they aren't using it. if they're 45+ seconds, they may well be. If you run combat analysis, a reaver fight without wrath means you kill them doing about 2k more dps than their total morale pool (thanks to glory in victory). A reaver fight with wrath means you're having to do close to double their morale pool in damage to kill them. It really is night and day.

    I've never really used WoS or SM in fights, even though I never really thought about the strong effect they have. I've typically been fighting with bleeds and few other skills. I think when you mention my play-style, that's about where I'm trying to figure out what other people think is fair. I refuse to trait blue and won't swap stances until a couple of more creeps show up. So I guess my dilemma is do I hold back on gear or do I hold back on skills. I'm leaning towards skills right now. It's hard to part with all those pretty shiny pieces that were lucky drops. I think I like the AGI build though. So I guess what I'm looking for is other warden opinions (since we're more familiar with our class than creeps) on what skills are fair (besides NS and DC of course) with a AGI heavy build (not to the point of glass cannon).

    But, it is also nice just to hear what other wardens are doing, especially those with varied play styles. It brings up interesting points and might open up my style to shift around.

    Oh, lastly, I personally feel that a 50-50 win/loss is a good start against well play creeps. The problem with that is do I limit myself even more when running across mid-ranked or under-played creeps? I generally don't even bother to do anything but watch fight-clubs; it's just hard for me to engage in a fight where I'm constantly thinking about pulling punches during the middle of the fight.

    Thanks for getting me to clarify my original post.
    Shield mastery once a fight starts isn't worth it, but Wall of Steel is our hardest hitting skill in any stance, the reflects stack from assailment and recklessness, so using both means every time a creep hits you, you hit them back for 228 (or 114 for just one). In a fight with a dps class (since they have faster attack animations, and don't ever have all their dps skills on cd, poor wls) you'll do 2-5k of damage purely in reflects, depending on if you use both, and whether you're fighting a reaver or warg, or BA.

    If you want to stick with all the shinys, I'd recommend no heals in a 1v1, every fight is winnable well over 50% of the time with your morale/dps level (other than if the reaver wraths), including weavers (barring Toxic carapace i suppose).

    Test out fights with no bleeds, especially vs mid-ranked creeps. TBH, i think the only classes I that haven't beaten very good creeps without bleeds are weavers, since catch prey makes our dps #### beyond the power attack line, and some defilers (and i just don't have a ton of experience in 1v1s with Defilers).

    If you don't like holding back on gambits, start looking for 2v1s and 3v1s.

    I can't stress enough learning creep abilities, if you want to improve your play out there.
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  5. #5
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    I don't really nurf myself with gear so much. but simple things like not traiting blue, not even 1. I also mainly self heal with moral-tap, no shield spear line. because my dots got insane with armor swapping, I stopped doing the big changes. now I just switch between 4yellow and 4 red with 2 blue peices as the middle ground. I have ~11k moral. very class canon compared to other wardens. and don't exploit defiant challange -_- so many people trying to do it on purpose doesn't help our cause, just use it like a normal cooldown, don't spam it, let people have a chance.

    I kinda see these nurfs as how I might see tree traits. so might as well get used to being a little more pure class, and tbh, I'm still a very good class at times. so it's a fair nurf to what I could do that would be over the top
    Last edited by bohbashum; Aug 24 2013 at 03:48 PM.
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  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by bohbashum View Post
    I don't really nurf myself with gear so much. but simple things like not traiting blue, not even 1. I also mainly self heal with moral-tap, no shield spear line. because my dots got insane with armor swapping, I stopped doing the big changes. now I just switch between 4yellow and 4 red with 2 blue peices as the middle ground. I have ~11k moral. very class canon compared to other wardens. and don't exploit defiant challange -_- so many people trying to do it on purpose doesn't help our cause, just use it like a normal cooldown, don't spam it, let people have a chance.

    I kinda see these nurfs as how I might see tree traits. so might as well get used to being a little more pure class, and tbh, I'm still a very good class at times. so it's a fair nurf to what I could do that would be over the top
    I'll be very sad if the class revamps leave spear warden's where they're at now when traited fully dps (for the moors). Even with only 2 hot pulses and no defiant challenge (the most likely things to be more strictly gated by trait trees), we're light years ahead of most creeps, and pretty well out of line with many freep classes. If HD really brings a lock on in-combat gearswapping (a rumor going around) we're a class that stands to lose less than others, too.
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  7. #7
    when i go to the moors i always suck. im not blaming it on gere or creepes or anything i myself stink at pvp...dies anyone have any tips and stuff. hes a warden but i con never win unless i use the heal stance. and even then i still don win because they get bord and leave. i try to use recklessness and get bleeds but i cant keep up with there moving around.
    I am a warden, start trembling NOOOOOWWWW!!!!!

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    I'll be very sad if the class revamps leave spear warden's where they're at now when traited fully dps (for the moors). Even with only 2 hot pulses and no defiant challenge (the most likely things to be more strictly gated by trait trees), we're light years ahead of most creeps, and pretty well out of line with many freep classes. If HD really brings a lock on in-combat gearswapping (a rumor going around) we're a class that stands to lose less than others, too.
    thats how I see it though. I can't see them removing all our survival gambits, just a few top teir gambits, but the base will be there all lines.

    I'm hopeing the corruption update is more than it sounds tbh. self healing freeps are so OP, at times, so I'm really hopeing those set bonuses won't just be stats, but added on parts to skills to give creeps more of a choice system. whether more PvP like debuffs, survival/group help, or raw damage/healing.

    I think it'd be better if we stayed at a kind of middle ground, not nurfed or buffed, while everyone else catches up (creeps too). there more pure suvival/dps lines over pass our hyrbrid middle ground. as it should be tbh.

    but we'll have to see just how it'll balance for a start just taking a few parts out. I'm sure our update won't be as big as some others. I know quite a few wardens that roll around full yellow and red but use gambits more like a tank. I hope the tree's and revamped skills/gambits will make that much less effective. even if that means reduce the potency of hots like crazy, and to really make them viable you NEED to be deep in blue. currently, even the base hots without many ticks is a lot of healing in PvP.
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cynantwotorcs View Post
    i cant keep up with there moving around.
    I think that sums it up.

    if you can't keep up with people in PvMP, you can't do much tbh. but you can learn.

    I would suggest you stay very defensive to begin with and stay more in assailment, try stay in range moving with them (learning your surroundings is huge). it'll probably take some time getting used to it, but staying in someone radius of 5-25m (40m with legacy I advice you get) is pretty much the same as keeping in melee range.

    if they run towards you, turn your side to them and strafe away from them. if you keep them just about infront you can make a little circle to run the same speed as them but still able to attack them. I used to practicing this (kiting) by running around just normally with just q+d and d+a, just ignoring w and s completely. using the mouse to switch sides. you get used to it eventually. it's really the only way to make assailment viable for PvE solo too.

    the exact same is with melee. but your range is massively shortended to 0-5m. while 2/6 creeps will let you stay in that range, most will jiggle in+out or just want to stay away. so as a warden, with only 1 slow (ignoring set-bonus for now) with a relatively long cooldown. it's a massive challang judging when you should be melee stance or ranged or just melee doing instant cast javalins. to really get the most out of the PvP warden you should be stance dancing quite a bit.

    I can't really say more unless you say what your issues are :P I'm sure people would also chip in with there rotations if you asked
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  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Cynantwotorcs View Post
    when i go to the moors i always suck. im not blaming it on gere or creepes or anything i myself stink at pvp...dies anyone have any tips and stuff. hes a warden but i con never win unless i use the heal stance. and even then i still don win because they get bord and leave. i try to use recklessness and get bleeds but i cant keep up with there moving around.
    at the risk of pointing out something obvious, you do turn with your mouse and use skills with your keyboard, right?
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  11. #11
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    Some nice advice and comments, but the topic of this thread goes to why I've stopped playing my warden in the moors. Going back to MoM I've been a spear warden and have not used any store items and usually no self-heals. I've always wanted to win "fairly" which is a subjective thing, but that is so hard to judge now. Since RoI, I found if I won a fight, whether a 1v1 or more, I had to try and figure out based on skills used, audacity, creep store skills etc, whether I was really playing fair or taking too much advantage of warden's ability to be OP. If I lost, I had to wonder if it was just lack of skill (very possible) or things like a reaver using wrath and a bunch of buffs, while I was going no self-heals/no DC/no NS/no assailment/no buffs.

    As discussed in this thread, if you have a good enough grasp of creep skills and the creep's personal skill, you can make some of those adjustments on the fly, but when you also have to factor in Outpost buffs, etc. personally, I can't just do all that with a glance at the creep and still have a "fair" fight.

    We aren't going back there, but the most pvp fun I had was pre-RoI, when combat was nasty, brutish and short. I could fight anyone on my old server (Vilya) 1v1 and whoever won was the winner. A lot of times it was me, sometimes wasn't, but they were always fun fights. No store skills, only a few CDs to watch for on creeps and no CDs for wardens.

    Basically, for me, it isn't fun playing a class where if you win, everyone says "of course, you are impossibly OP" and if you lose, you are obviously a terrible warden, since they don't know you are self-gimping like crazy.

    Hope everyone else is having a blast out there and this isn't a shot at anyone or the class, but this topic goes right to why I don't do a part of the game I used to love.

    P.S. I'd also add I feel sorry for wardens brand new to pvp because you would get the impression from the uber wardens that you should be face-rolling everything with nothing equipped but a slapper fish. Not a shot at the great pvp wardens who have to greatly gimp to have a challenge, but for newbies, understand while wardens have great OP potential, you won't faceroll everything from the start
    -Runik
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  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Grampybone View Post
    Some nice advice and comments, but the topic of this thread goes to why I've stopped playing my warden in the moors. Going back to MoM I've been a spear warden and have not used any store items and usually no self-heals. I've always wanted to win "fairly" which is a subjective thing, but that is so hard to judge now. Since RoI, I found if I won a fight, whether a 1v1 or more, I had to try and figure out based on skills used, audacity, creep store skills etc, whether I was really playing fair or taking too much advantage of warden's ability to be OP. If I lost, I had to wonder if it was just lack of skill (very possible) or things like a reaver using wrath and a bunch of buffs, while I was going no self-heals/no DC/no NS/no assailment/no buffs.

    As discussed in this thread, if you have a good enough grasp of creep skills and the creep's personal skill, you can make some of those adjustments on the fly, but when you also have to factor in Outpost buffs, etc. personally, I can't just do all that with a glance at the creep and still have a "fair" fight.

    We aren't going back there, but the most pvp fun I had was pre-RoI, when combat was nasty, brutish and short. I could fight anyone on my old server (Vilya) 1v1 and whoever won was the winner. A lot of times it was me, sometimes wasn't, but they were always fun fights. No store skills, only a few CDs to watch for on creeps and no CDs for wardens.

    Basically, for me, it isn't fun playing a class where if you win, everyone says "of course, you are impossibly OP" and if you lose, you are obviously a terrible warden, since they don't know you are self-gimping like crazy.

    Hope everyone else is having a blast out there and this isn't a shot at anyone or the class, but this topic goes right to why I don't do a part of the game I used to love.

    P.S. I'd also add I feel sorry for wardens brand new to pvp because you would get the impression from the uber wardens that you should be face-rolling everything with nothing equipped but a slapper fish. Not a shot at the great pvp wardens who have to greatly gimp to have a challenge, but for newbies, understand while wardens have great OP potential, you won't faceroll everything from the start
    -Runik
    I feel exactly the same way! I just wish I wasn't so attached to how much fun a warden is to play because of the activity level when using gambits.

    And for the newish pvp wardens--I totally second this post. When I started playing in the Moors, I lost a lot. It took a while before I finally won often enough to figure out why people said wardens were so OP in pvp.
    Physalia of Landroval

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grampybone View Post
    the most pvp fun I had was pre-RoI, when combat was nasty, brutish and short.
    oh lord, I hated that.

    tbh, I would rather not have people able to self heal, and heals be massivly nurfed. yet have much much larger moral pools so fights will go on for a long time, but always end as healers can't always keep up.

    differance in oppinoin I guess, but when most of the moors is running too and from fights, and having so many skills, I would hope 1v1's should last at least 30s. it annoys me how some classes can blow up creeps, thats just boring to run into a fight and just die, not much you could do.
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  14. #14
    I don't use any heals/morale-tap in any 1v1. I won't use WoS against anyone but Impale spamming Reavers (all reavers!). You need to fully utilize your masteries, and in all fights movement is very important. War Leaders need to have the Desolation Fear proc on them all the time, same for defilers. Put the Spear bleeds on first against weavers, then fist, Desolation last, because of the uptiering BPE they have. Don't bother with the pet, wardens don't have any burst DPS to get it down in time. BA's need to be down asap, due to their immense burst DPS.
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  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Grampybone View Post
    We aren't going back there, but the most pvp fun I had was pre-RoI, when combat was nasty, brutish and short.
    Thomas Hobbes fan?

    I agree with much of what you said; back in my early days as a spear warden when the spear capstone was +50% to warden's triumph damage, being able to kill a creep in the 5s duration of an ambush stun was a pretty stern testament to just how nasty, brutish and short life was out there, but I don't think back overly fondly on that, to be honest.
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  16. #16
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    Glad you got the Hobbes reference. I agree the fights back then could possibly be too short, but things have gone too far the other direction now, I think. When I look at combat analysis and see I've done double the damage to a reaver than he did to me and I still died because I wasn't self healing, that doesn't feel right. As was mentioned earlier, bigger morale pools but less/no self heals would make for longer fights but at least get away from a race between dps and hps.

    Back before RoI when morale pools were low, no audacity and the rest, you had to be able to respond instantly when jumped or the fight was over before it began. That gave an element of excitement to roaming solo that isn't quite there now. On the other side, hiding and catching a creep with an ambush was pretty much an auto win, but unlike burgs and hunters; wardens can't stealth for long and we take the chance of getting jumped ourselves. More tension, more fun, imho.

    I'll also grant that some freep classes could essentially one-shot creeps back then, but for wardens, it seemed pretty balanced if you were traited spear pre-RoI. Just seems now everyone, freeps and creeps have bubbles, self heals or something. This is broader than just the moors, but I liked it when each class was more defined and less multi-role.

    -Runik

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grampybone View Post
    When I look at combat analysis and see I've done double the damage to a reaver than he did to me and I still died because I wasn't self healing, that doesn't feel right. As was mentioned earlier, bigger morale pools but less/no self heals would make for longer fights but at least get away from a race between dps and hps.
    it's been a norm that creeps have almost ~2x moral pools as freeps so it's only natural they do less dps. but compared to the top freep dps classes to top creep dps classes it's not at all fair at times. especially how consistant freeps can be with there dps.

    but thats not too bad compared to when you look at the healing differance. freeps healing is much, much better that creep healing. yet with creeps naturally having more moral, they need the heals more than freeps. adding in the fact freeps have better CC/intterupts and most importantly more reliable -inc healing debuffs, we can much easier overpower there hps.

    most RvR I've had since U10 has been just heal spamming till rats get organised and burst someone quick enough before the healers realise. healing and self heals are just so powerful in moors now it's insane. imo, it's just freeps healing that is too high, not creeps to low. the healing for PvE might be fine, but it's too high in PvP for sure.

    but then again, thats my oppinoin in how I'd like fights to be longer, but almost always eventually end. nothing more annoying than losing a fight seeing you NEVER go someone to half moral. while there healers are so powerful at spamming aoe's that no one fell low.

    Back before RoI when morale pools were low, no audacity and the rest, you had to be able to respond instantly when jumped or the fight was over before it began. That gave an element of excitement to roaming solo that isn't quite there now. On the other side, hiding and catching a creep with an ambush was pretty much an auto win, but unlike burgs and hunters; wardens can't stealth for long and we take the chance of getting jumped ourselves. More tension, more fun, imho.
    I just don't see that fair to the enemy. losing in seconds with little to do back. I don't mind dieing, but when I die in seconds with nothing to do, it just sparks anger. I don't mind the pouncer having an advantage and able to lock them into a fight (wargs find that too hard these days), it shouldn't be about trying to run away or just excepting your fate, but knowing that your still in with a little chance of either someone popping over to save you or you somehow able to pull it though.

    it's just not fun to be running for a minite then die with nothing to do. it's PvP, they need to balance to the fun to both the winners AND losers. there is a weird balance that can be made so people just admit "yep, he out played me, well done" instead of "oh ffs, x/y/z class is too good against EVERYONE!!!" or "not again -_-".

    I'll also grant that some freep classes could essentially one-shot creeps back then, but for wardens, it seemed pretty balanced if you were traited spear pre-RoI. Just seems now everyone, freeps and creeps have bubbles, self heals or something. This is broader than just the moors, but I liked it when each class was more defined and less multi-role.
    I actually wouldn't mind crazy dps classes, if they truely were class canons. but there not at all.

    I wouldn't mind getting 1 shotted by a warg with 1 moral, I know I could have blown him up just as well if he didn't play smart. but when I'm able to pop some of the nasties dots in moors and some good mobile dps AND THEN pop out one of the best survival. somethings just not right.
    Last edited by bohbashum; Aug 26 2013 at 01:05 AM.
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  18. #18
    My idea of self gimping has led me to much more enjoyable game play than the typical "undestructible force guarding the moors" Wardens have been known for.

    Trait spear 5, 2 shield.
    2 spear-lord set for bleed, 2 vigilence set for +20% damage, 2 hytbold bleed set. (9 audacity)
    I stack agility/might ~2500 vs ~1100 vitality, keeps me ~13k morale.
    No self heals of any sorts against solos (unless they pop a cd skill like eat pet, reflect, burrow, wrath, ato, mt.. etc.)
    A single 12sec restoration heal against warg packs of 3+, any more than that I accept I will just take one or two with me when I go.
    Low ranked creep will usually get me to unequip the 2 spear lord set for 5 audacity and less bleeds, and lower overall stats.
    DC is wonky anyway so I only use that to piss people off who are zerging me.
    NS is only used in 3+ creep situations when solo, and usually i forget to pop it anyway.
    Sometimes I manually build gambits to slow down my dps.
    I don't use IH debuff against solo WL, Defilers who are actually trying to dps.. rather than stun, kite, spam heal to safety. (I'm not healing.. let's have a good fight!)
    Those who run to large group NPCs get special provisions of a morale tap, since they can't seem to realize I'm trying to make it a fair, fun fight.
    I've even went as far as unequipping my shield to negate my block % against greenies on top of everything else.

    I think the most exciting part of the moors is making yourself have balance with the creep classes and putting up a fair fight that either party could win. I often die to a warg as he bleeds out, or leave myself with less than 2k morale after a fight. There is nothing wrong with dying here, it's part of the moors. I'd much rather have a fair fight, wake up in the rez circle and know the player on the other side enjoyed the fight, than steam roll everyone and have all wargs and solos avoid me at all cost.

    I play both sides and most of the time on my warg, even in small packs we ignore the known shield wardens because it's just not worth the effort. When a shield warden prevents you from doing your normal rotation because they can not be critted against... I don't see how that is fair. When a shield warden can easily survive the onslaught of 6+ creeps, not doing any dps of course, but survive.. something is wrong. I'm waiting for the RK's and minis to catch on to what wardens are doing.. but they don't seem to really care.
    ~Anaxander R9 Warden, Baranthor R5 Hunter, Skartan R2 Guardian~ Elendilmir
    ~Karukh R10 Warg, Prisonshank R6 Reaver~ Elendilmir
    **Mac User**

  19. #19
    Just pointing one or two thingies out...

    Quote Originally Posted by AaronIU View Post
    Trait spear 5, 2 shield.
    Why two shield?

    2 spear-lord set for bleed, 2 vigilence set for +20% damage, 2 hytbold bleed set. (9 audacity)
    Vigilance gives a +10% damage bonus to Fist Gambit

    I stack agility/might ~2500 vs ~1100 vitality, keeps me ~13k morale.
    You'll get two shotted when Impale crits.

    No self heals of any sorts against solos (unless they pop a cd skill like eat pet, reflect, burrow, wrath, ato, mt.. etc.)
    Then why trait two shield?
    Feailuve - Aeviternus - Vesanus
    Brandywine

    The important thing about life is the struggle, not the triumph... Said no winner ever.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Giliodor View Post
    Just pointing one or two thingies out...



    Why two shield?



    Vigilance gives a +10% damage bonus to Fist Gambit



    You'll get two shotted when Impale crits.



    Then why trait two shield?
    Since I see Anax play a solid Spear warden all the time on E, I'll try and answer some of these.

    He meant 2x Solidarity for the 20% sp-sh dmg bonus, not vigilance.

    My typical build (I change things around a lot) puts me maybe 500 morale above Anax's, with much better mits i think (at the cost of mastery). Dev strike doesn't hit for 6.5k even on a Dev, so you aren't getting 2-shot on a warden. Having under 14k morale puts you in range of a full bleed impale bringing you under 50% morale for an immediate Dev strike, and that will likely bring you to 1/4 health, which means you'll be dead in another 5-10s, but reaver fights that last under 30s are a LOT of fun, and are far from unwinnable.

    I'm sure every server can say they're zergy, but soloing on E is nothing like soloing on smaller servers, in my experience. You may be looking for solos/duos as a spear warden, but even if you avoid the raid, you're going to find 4-6 man groups just as often as the solo/duo you are looking for. Being able to go down swinging in an unwinnable fight instead of having to DC to last more than 5 seconds is a nice luxury, and the reason I still trait Perseverance (+2 hot pulses) over Mighty Throw (+10% jav skills) or Know your enemy (+ crit rating).

    Personally, Expert Hurler is the most important trait I have, so you won't see me with 2 blue, but whatever works for you.
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  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Giliodor View Post
    Just pointing one or two thingies out...
    Why two shield?
    Vigilance gives a +10% damage bonus to Fist Gambit
    You'll get two shotted when Impale crits.
    Then why trait two shield?
    Yes I was wrong with the name but right with the bonus (+20%), I was doing this without my client open during the downtime, sorry for the confusion.
    I never get two shotted, and the closest to that I ever get is when the reaver hits the bleeds, impale, dev strike, ato, then impale and dev strike again. Even then I"m usually still kicking and bleeding him for all he's worth with the 2-25% bleed bonuses. If this is a reaver that I know does this, a single restoration might be hit in the rotation, as I said I won't heal unless cd's are popped that alter the landscape of the fight, ATO being one of them. A single restoration only has a few ticks and is done in recklessness, no reason to stance dance and wait for the cd on recklessness to re-stance for a single heal. The reason I trait 2 shield is two-fold; I don't alter my traits very often and I solo with the same traits I group with. On E you're 10x's more likely to run into duos or three creeps than you are a solo, so the +2 heal tick is nice and so is the small heal from blocks is nice, even though this is my lowest avoidance. That is also why I use 2 shield, for the small block bonus since my block is my lowest avoidance. I've also played around with the hurler trait and sometimes will go back and forth. I also have alternate gear setups I can use based on who I'm running into or who I'm fighting at the time. Here is my gear setup if you are curious how balanced I am. I try to balance dps/survivability while leaning towards the DPS more. I really enjoy the DPS races I have with some reavers on my server. We have some great reavers and it's always a challenge to see what you can get away with. I don't use shield buffs in fights, and rarely pop the shield reflects. I used to have a hunter main and I carry a lot of the same DPS race mentality over to a different platform that offers better survivability and solo-ability. This same exact set up has solo'ed Dungeons, Sambrog, School, Library... and so on. *These stats are without food,buffs, or Field Promotions, which make a considerable difference in the Moors.
    *Edit, I also forgot to mention my virtues, I use Innocence, Tolerance, Charity, Fidelity, Honour all tier 16.



    These are the rest of my stats as well as alternate gear choices I use variable on encounter.
    ~Anaxander R9 Warden, Baranthor R5 Hunter, Skartan R2 Guardian~ Elendilmir
    ~Karukh R10 Warg, Prisonshank R6 Reaver~ Elendilmir
    **Mac User**

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by AaronIU View Post
    so is the small heal from blocks is nice, even though this is my lowest avoidance. That is also why I use 2 shield, for the small block bonus since my block is my lowest avoidance.
    Check your traits, skillful blocking is now combat positioning. :P
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  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    Check your traits, skillful blocking is now combat positioning. :P
    Which is triggered by Evade since the update.
    Feailuve - Aeviternus - Vesanus
    Brandywine

    The important thing about life is the struggle, not the triumph... Said no winner ever.

  24. #24
    Join Date
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    I personally wouldn't handicap yourself at all in terms of gear setup at all. On the contrary with skill usage though. With helms deep coming out soon, you should be playing as you can predict the class is going to be.
    I.e. From what I've personally gathered from what the devs have shared with us thus far, No self healing or DC use while in recklessness or assailment, no stance swapping from recklessness to determination or vice versa etc etc etc.

    From the sounds they are pigeonholing every single role in a dedicated fashion. And I wouldn't be surprised if wardens are literally not going to be able to pop tanky cooldowns or maintain the ability to self heal in melee dps lines post HD or vice versa.
    Not that I've stopped yet, but it might be likely that they stop armour swaps too.

    I don't actually have a clue if thats how extreme things are going to be after the expansion hits, but it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest based on what big T's done in previous class changes on the scale for any major update (In this case, an expansion).
    IMO if things do end up turning out that differently, and you start playing in that fashion now, you'll probably save yourself some adjusting time later.

    I just really hope I'm right, and the wardens doomsday is coming. Otherwise I'm going to be really pissed off l0l0l

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Untg99 View Post
    I just really hope I'm right, and the wardens doomsday is coming. Otherwise I'm going to be really pissed off l0l0l
    So do I, finally a drop in the Warden population. I gave up on my warden after U10, but I might give it a try with HD. I do want more burst DPS, though, to compensate for surviveability.
    Feailuve - Aeviternus - Vesanus
    Brandywine

    The important thing about life is the struggle, not the triumph... Said no winner ever.

 

 
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