Class Revamp Dev Chat

[furtim]

Just curious what everybody thought of that and what it'll mean for us Cappies. Not a lot of details on specific changes yet, but we got at least one shout-out suggesting that our tank build might finally be something other than third-rate.

What do you guys think of the whole specialisation business? How about the pruning of our skill lists?

(Standard but sadly necessary disclaimer: Yeah, I'm in the Player Council, but I'm posting this thread as a Captain player, not as a Councilor. This shouldn't be considered an "official" feedback thread or anything like that. I just want to put up a place for Captain to talk about the class revamp, now that there's a slightly more public info out there about it.)

[Nyrion]

Don't forget this!: Q35: @Merry_Forest88 Can we expect increase of power and abilities from under-power Lore-Master Pets and Captain Herald? #LOTRO
A35: DeviledEGG We are trying to better balance the potency of LM pets and Capt. Heralds. #LOTRO

Granted it's not quite as important to most Cappies, but as a pet class lover the fact that they haven't forgotten about addressing our pets is great news to me.

Concerning the skill pruning, well I'll have to wait and see what skills we will be keeping across the trait trees and what ones are removed to be in the trees themselves. Also bearing in mind the possibility of new skills(another defeat response mayhaps?), it's really too up in the air at the moment to make a solid judgement. Hopefully our DPS and tanking roles are made more viable, and going by their general responses that would seem to be the intention. Time will tell.

More than anything else though, I'm hoping we get our fair share of the attention to fixing combat animations that they talked about. The Captain feels sooooooo sloooooow compared to any other class I've played, even the Guardian was faster.

As of right now, I'm keeping cautiously optimistic.

[furtim]

More than anything else though, I'm hoping we get our fair share of the attention to fixing combat animations that they talked about. The Captain feels sooooooo sloooooow compared to any other class I've played, even the Guardian was faster.

So true! Are you referring to Overpower Guardian or Sword & Board Guardian, though? I always just assumed that a lot of the Captain's combat animation problems stemmed from my using two-handers all the time.

[TinDragon]

I was going to ask if LMs and cappies would also move towards full healer status but Twitter has that annoying 140 character limit, so I was stuck asking about just tanking (which I see as our weakest line right now).

Specialization seems cool, but I'm a little wary on pruning of skills. Like a lot of RKs and LMs mention, captains use a lot of their skills in a lot of their roles. I'm not sure which ones I feel I could give up.

[Nyrion]

So true! Are you referring to Overpower Guardian or Sword & Board Guardian, though? I always just assumed that a lot of the Captain's combat animation problems stemmed from my using two-handers all the time.

I only run Sword N Board on my Guard, so I cannot speak on behalf of Two Handers(considering Overpower allows for shields now). But even when I previously used a Sword N Board on my Cappy, the pace just felt so sluggish. Hard for me to determine exactly why that is.

[Monkeylad]

I have both a guard and a cappy, cappy is much better off imo.Only improvements i can suggest are longer reach, and or more slows. Cant keep up with in combat creeps while pvping, leading them to get away.

[furtim]

I was going to ask if LMs and cappies would also move towards full healer status but Twitter has that annoying 140 character limit, so I was stuck asking about just tanking (which I see as our weakest line right now).

It's probably safe to assume, based on the response to the tank question, that they want classes with dedicated healing specs to operate as full Healers (but in their own unique yadda yaddas) as well. And again for DPS.

Specialization seems cool, but I'm a little wary on pruning of skills. Like a lot of RKs and LMs mention, captains use a lot of their skills in a lot of their roles. I'm not sure which ones I feel I could give up.

Yeah, it's going to be really weird not having everything all the time. It doesn't seem to bother me too much in Mounted Combat... But maybe that's because I didn't have 85 levels to get used to always having all of my skills.

Of course, it's not actually true now that we always have literally all of our skills. IDOME, SotD, and Oath-Breakers Shame are all only available from their legendary traits. I think some of the other classes are even a little more extreme, in terms of having some skills that are only available with certain traits, but I dunno. My Captain is my only 85, so there's a lot about other classes that I don't know.

[TinDragon]

It's probably safe to assume, based on the response to the tank question, that they want classes with dedicated healing specs to operate as full Healers (but in their own unique yadda yaddas) as well. And again for DPS.

Probably a safe bet.

Of course, it's not actually true now that we always have literally all of our skills. IDOME, SotD, and Oath-Breakers Shame are all only available from their legendary traits. I think some of the other classes are even a little more extreme, in terms of having some skills that are only available with certain traits, but I dunno. My Captain is my only 85, so there's a lot about other classes that I don't know.

I think champs, guards, and LMs are in the same boat, with each having several skills. (Couple DPS ones for champs, threat stance & Challenge the Darkness for Guards, Eagle & Ents for LM) Couple other classes have a single skill, but not too much of a big deal at that point.

Depending on how the tree ends up looking, I have a feeling I may be able to ditch all of my healing skills in DPS mode. I'm hoping the best benefits of red line can be dabbled in while specializing in healing, and since I've never been overly concerned with my DPS while healing (just some of the other stuff, like the crit chance) I may be able to get away with a heal build with few DPS traits and a DPS build with very little healing stuff. Of course, that all depends on how the tree turns out.

[Elrantiri]

I have both a guard and a cappy, cappy is much better off imo.Only improvements i can suggest are longer reach, and or more slows. Cant keep up with in combat creeps while pvping, leading them to get away.

I agree with that. I haven't played LotrO for a good while now, and the only thing I really miss (apart from the kinship/community ofc) is the Captain class. The versatility and the support role is a lot better than any class I've seen so far. I just hope they won't mess that up by changing the class too much.

[DelgonTheWise]

Depending on how the tree ends up looking, I have a feeling I may be able to ditch all of my healing skills in DPS mode.

If so, I hope that they redo power some more. Without Now for Wrath I can run out of power all too easily in longer fights (I basically never untrait it whether tanking, dpsing, or healing, nor do most folks).

I'm a bit concerned about the "20 skill limit", but we'll see. The captain's "disaster recovery" role gives us the rezes, time of need, last stand, in harms way, etc, which aren't used that often perhaps but do take slots. The disaster recovery role isn't really tied to a trait line either, though various aspects of those skills are modified by traits.

I've long thought that DPS traited captains should DPS more and heal less, so I like the specialization concept in principle. I'm hoping for juiced up heralds as well, rather than walking target dummies for reflected blade brother. I'd like heralds to be at least as good a choice as standards in most circumstances...

[TinDragon]

If so, I hope that they redo power some more. Without Now for Wrath I can run out of power all too easily in longer fights (I basically never untrait it whether tanking, dpsing, or healing, nor do most folks).

Rallying Cry is such a staple of "captaining" I'd be surprised if that wasn't one of the base skills we got to keep no matter how we traited. Valiant Strike and Words of Courage however will probably be traits. Honestly not sure how they'll look at Inspire.

[vr00mie]

I'm a bit concerned about the "20 skill limit", but we'll see.

I think people have locked in to this a bit too much.
The actual answer was:

Q15: Laire: Using all of their points, on average how many active skills does a 85 toon have? #LOTRO
A15: Jinjaah: Our goal, and it isn’t the same across the board, is for all classes to have around 20 skills after spending all their points.
A15a: Things like travel paths will not count towards this cap. #LOTRO

Emphasis mine. I wouldn't worry too much about the number of skills.

[Lunasa]

I am not worried (yet).

At present, Captains have three distinct lines. Not perfect of course, but they are there and all 3 are used. I am quite confident that trees will simply mimic these trait lines offering more and gating more. I want to believe that tanking will become viable while strong healing potential will be connected to the blue tree. It does feel wrong now that with dps traits I can heal most of 6man instances, and that even with tanking traits I end up being a healer and protector for that champ who stole the agro. I love healing, but I want to see more defined roles for a captain and I hope that the tree system will help.

I am afraid that our marks (telling/revealing/noble) and brother skills (shield/blade/song) will be somehow inserted into the trees. It would make a lot of sense and would follow the idea of present capstones, but I would definitely miss the possibility to switch them in the middle of the fight.

Other than that, I think captains will not suffer from switching to the trait trees as much as some other classes. Will buffs and heals be strictly separated for minstrels? Will healing skills become unavailable for a dps-traited RK (and vice verse)?. How much debuffs and healing will a dps-traited LM have? What will happen to guardians who have a threat line and a defence line now and both of those are needed for one role - tanking? Those classes I am concerned about, not about my main - captain class.

[SapienChavez]

edit: my basic belief is that capns should have access to ALL their skill and abilities in ALL builds (should not even have builds, imo). at worst, I want limited access to one role while in another... but capns should NEVER have to sacrifice one skill for another (as the new system is looking...)



the way its being worded, I am not happy.

this is the first time I have been unhappy with proposed changes.

I HATE skill trees. I have since they were introduced in Diablo 2. ive dealt with them, because the gaming world grabbed onto them.

now the rest of the gaming world is finally moving AWAY form them... and turbine jumps o the train?

Turbine has created the finest jack-of-all-trades characters of nearly any MMO. Asherons Call had some great builds for all-in-one chars, and the Capn is the finest class I have played in all my 20+ MMOs and the best balanced jack-of-all-trades.

I will wait and see how this actually works... I admit, I may end up loving all the changes after seeing how they work together and what happens to our class...

but, based on the little info we have been give and my EXTENSIVE knowledge of what video game mechanics I like (im an expert on my own opinions), I am not liking what I have read.

even the handling of all this, with the twitter questions, id annoying me. once again I question their marketing dept and overall strategy... but that's me as a marketing guy.



the sky isn't falling... yet.

[TinDragon]

(im an expert on my own opinions)

+rep for that! If we still had rep, anyway.

[Elben]

I'm not sure yet, actually. I'm overly looking forward to it, since it means I'll probably have to pick a tree to work from and limit my skills. Right now, since I'm soloing pretty much everything, I have to run as all three roles for captain. But, I believe they mentioned a key part of it was having skills from outside the main tree, which does make things better.

[dietlbomb]

Since you asked, here's what I posted in the official thread:

I'm still a skeptic about the trait tree idea. Some points:

1. Having to spend all your points every time you want to respec. This seems kinda lame. We still don't know how things will work out, but this doesn't encourage experimentation.

2. Three roles per class. Not every class has had three roles so far. Champions can be tanks or dps. Guardians can be tanks or dps. Hunters can be dps. I'm not sure why every class needs to be shoehorned into 3 roles. For instance, the champion could have been given 2 trees with more interesting choices within each tree. The captain and the lore-master arguably have 4 roles!

3. Classes with generalist roles. If the purpose of this class redesign is to encourage specialization, what will become of generalist classes like the captain and lore-master? The captain's specialty is to be able to shift between healing, buffing, and damage during the battle. Will there be a trait tree to make the captain extra captainy, or just trees that stress healing, buffing, tanking, and damage?

4. Legendary items. The current ability to mix and match traits between sets allows a certain amount of hybridization. But legendary items do this as well. Captains currently get a large percentage of their healing bonuses from legendary items and not from traits. Is there a plan to update legacies to discourage hybridization as well?

I just remembered something else that was nagging me about the trait trees. We will be getting something on the order of 50 trait points to spend per configuration. Each configuration will have 1 choice of a specialization and grant approximately 7 to 15 skills. Having to spend 50ish points to unlock 15 skills has the risk of being needlessly complicated.