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  1. #1
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    What makes the difference, the class mix or the players?

    Last night an 85 champ in my kin wanted to run a 3-man. We managed to get a guardian too so I decided to heal on my LM. The champ had never done Iorbar's Peak, so that's what we did. Now, the champ had never done this, the guard had never completed it and I have only been there a couple of times, so we ran T1.

    I was astonished how smoothly everything went. All three of us finished every fight near full health and power. My healing basically consisted of water-lore on the tank and group-wide flank heals (I used the eagle to increase the frequency of those). I think I used beacon of hope once on the tank and never more than the flank heals on the champ. I had healed that instance another time with a different class make-up (don't remember what it was) and things did not go nearly as smoothly.

    *** SOME MINOR INSTANCE SPOILERS FOLLOW ***

    Now since I don't think I've improved THAT much as a player I started to wonder if it was the class mix or the players that made the difference. I'm sure it's a bit of both. It seemed that both these guys knew their classes, plus they followed my directions. For example, the tank picked up the mobs and the champ did not steal aggro from him (hence why I didn't need to heal him). When I called out a target they switched. When I pointed out the shadow damage area from the caller, they avoided it. They moved when the target circles for giants throwing rocks appeared. As for the FM, once I assigned the first (R) to champ and third (Y) to guard, I could use G or B in the middle to pull off straights every time one popped. In the final fight, the champ and I were responsible for stopping the workers from getting to the egg and not a single one made it. This was, bar none, the best 3-man I've been in.

    *** END OF SPOILERS ***

    Here are my conclusions and questions. I suspect that for many of the 3-mans where a LM could heal, that the guard/champ/lm combo is one of the best mixes. Clearly it is an amazing mix when everybody knows how to play their class and follows directions. I'm wondering, how successful would this class mix be with players less skilled than I had the pleasure of playing with last night? Are there other 3-man combinations, which include the LM, that are as effective? How much can skillful play compensate for less effective mixtures?

  2. #2
    Part of it is the instance you picked. IP is one of the easiest 3 mans and I've done it a lot without a tank. I usually tank it on my hunter and I only run it on T2. A lot of my groups are 2 hunters and a mini. You probably don't need many heals with a real tank in the group. The other Erebor 3 mans aren't nearly as easy on T2(at least not while going for challenge), though I haven't tried them on T1.

    To answer the thread title, it's more about individual players in most 3 mans. Some of the harder 6 mans and raids will require a good class selection though.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cirgellon View Post
    I usually tank it on my hunter and I only run it on T2. A lot of my groups are 2 hunters and a mini.
    I've done the same, except replace the mini with a captain (which a lot of people don't consider a real healer). IP is ridiculously easy.
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  4. #4
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    I certainly agree the IP is an easy 3-man. What I was struck by was the vast difference in how easy it can be. Like I said, a previous run I did was not so smooth.

    I would put Goblin king next and then scuttledells as far as difficulty for the Erebor 3-mans anyway. What do you thing the odds are of completing those with that group, based on what I described?

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alcor View Post
    What do you thing the odds are of completing those with that group, based on what I described?
    I healed all 3 Ereber 3mans instances with lm+tank+dd. But if I can choose I choose ranged dd. He can avoid some unwanted dmg (like auras).

    In goblins town are some teribble dots which can make problems if you have two melees to heal.
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alcor View Post
    I would put Goblin king next and then scuttledells as far as difficulty for the Erebor 3-mans anyway. What do you thing the odds are of completing those with that group, based on what I described?
    I'll assume T2 for this.

    Great Goblin should be manageable. You shouldn't have any problem getting challenge either, as long as the champ is doing his job and you're keeping debuffs on the mobs to make them die easier. (Ancient Craft is the big one in that situation.) The key here is to make sure you're not standing near the guard and champ for the second boss (with the poison clouds) and that the champ saves all his bubbles for that same phase.

    Unless Scuttledells got easier, I doubt you could do it with that setup (unless you exploit). The first boss & adds hit pretty hard, as does the spider boss. Regular T2 may be feasable, but I'm not seeing Challenge mode being completed with those three classes.
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  7. #7
    Great Goblin shouldn't even be a problem. The real race is on the first two adds and then each of the three bosses. The rest of the adds will get taken care of by residual AoE stuff from you and the champ. No need to ever target them. Going off of memory here, but I believe the first two adds have about 25k morale, the first boss has 50k, while the second and third bosses have somewhere between 130k and 150k. Start with a four minute timer for the challenge, take out thirty seconds for animations and fifteen seconds for a fudge factor, and that means you only need about 2k dps to complete the challenge though most of that is single-target.

    This is where it comes down to players.

    A decent champ can do that much on their own. Even a LM can do that on their own if dps was all they had to worry about, but that's heavily dependent on gear and a good rotation. A skilled LM who still has to heal can do 1.5k to 1.7k single-target dps while throwing out 500 to 600 hps on the tank plus a good 100 to 200 hps in off-heals. Even a guard wearing mixed purple and teal won't take that much damage. In fact, they don't take that much in some of the 6-mans. With good enough players, pick any two out of the three you listed and the challenge could be completed though the champ/guard combo would have the toughest go probably. Take all three of you and that mix could easily accomplish the challenge. Just make sure you manage that disease from the second boss properly.

    Scuttledells is more challenging, but should still be doable. That's a lot of AoE dps you guys would have. Use support skills and you guys could potentially handle the adds in both boss fights without taking too much damage, though the adds in the second fight would be tougher because those bridges limit mobility. Beating the challenge timer is tough, but it all really comes down to one question. Are all of you lag-free? If yes, you can do it. If not, forget about it. A significant number of folks have technical problems in that fight, unfortunately, which just makes it unplayable.

    That's the only fight in any of the 3-mans in the entire game for which you absolutely must have three people, though. All others can either be duoed or soloed. Plus, all three need to know the fight, and two must have a good amount of dps. Definitely wouldn't be easy, but guard-champ-LM is a good mix for that challenge because champs can take a beating while LMs can still do a lot of healing and damage prevention while traited for dps.

    As for the title question, I'll throw in on the quality of player side more than mix. Classes are so versatile that mix doesn't matter a whole lot until you get to T2 raids in my opinion. Some instances might be made a lot easier with a certain class or two like a support class in Sammath Gul, AoE dps in Lost Temple, a LM in Bells of Dale, a legit tank and healer in a few of the hardest six-mans, or a Captain, well, always. By and large, though, good groups find a way.
    Last edited by kriskrosed; Aug 22 2013 at 03:10 PM. Reason: added Captain to list at the end
    85 LM Berewen, 85 Burg Balculus, 85 Guard Benferth

  8. #8
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    Player skill is really the most important. I've done IPt2c (an easy 3 man as others have said) with 2 lms and a champ or even 3 lms. Creative groups make the instances more fun and challenging! Too bad the Helms Deep class revamp will ruin this versatility. =/

  9. #9
    IP T2c can be completed with any setup with a variety of difficulty level. The more people know their classes and instance though the smoother the run will go.

    About GG. Due to great DoTs and a respectable amount of mobs pulled in certain runs it makes it a lot more difficult. U need a healer or a tank for that one. Or 3 really good players. My favorite combo is taking with me a champ and a hunter or RK(myself as LM) tis the fastest and smoothest imo. U have CC/heals/debuffs/mad AoE dmg/astonishing single target dmg.

    About scuttle-dells, at T2 i managed to go till last boss even with 3 light classes(1st boss proved somewhat troublesome tbh as well as those balefull something wights). Unfortunately i can't complete scuttle-dells coz i lag way too much the moment we approach the last boss, so cant tell about that one.

    So enjoy playing with people knowing their classes and never say it can't be done with this setup as long as there is a LM in the grp ^^

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arodion View Post
    Player skill is really the most important. I've done IPt2c (an easy 3 man as others have said) with 2 lms and a champ or even 3 lms. Creative groups make the instances more fun and challenging! Too bad the Helms Deep class revamp will ruin this versatility. =/
    I think it is way too early to claim the class revamps will ruin that versatility. It sounds like one of the goals of it is to counteract the class homogenization that has been creeping in. The sounds like more versatility to me, not less.

  11. #11
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    I healed a couple more instances with the same group tonight. We did Library T1 including the Challenge. We also ran a skirmish, but 3-man skirmishes can probably be done with any mix, regardless of ability.

    Still, it's fun doing things a bit different than the usual.

  12. #12
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    Well, having a good player helps alot. Class make up is pretty much trivial for alot of the 3 mans. Peak can be done with 3 hunters, or two, or one. Now that damage was adjusted.

    For goblin town, heal spec LMs can heal that pretty easily even with hunter tanking. Duoed it as hunter LM with bout a minute left on challenge.

    As for scuttledells, that too can be done with LM heals. Specially with a real tank. Was able to do it with me tanking on hunter with LM heals and the other person run torches(i lag so I cant torch). A legit tank just makes it easier.

    All 3 mans can be done with any classes for the most part. An LM can heal all of them. I find that taking a real tank tends to just slow down runs. Outside of chainpulling stuff. Also, real tanks and heals in 3mans tends to make em so faceroll easy if you have good players that its not even fun anymore. Basicaly, if you have good players, you will have much easier runs. 2 good players can carry an afk guy for the most part in most runs.

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  13. #13
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    I'd say the players make the difference. If the player understand what thier class and other classes can do, then you can run 3 man and most of 6 man now with any class mix. Some might take longer, some mix make the run faster, but sure you can done it with any kind of class mix.

  14. #14
    Yup, but I wouldn't go Sword-Halls HM without anti-stun. Cappy/champ/LM with cappy kiting Durkar is by far the easiest combo I've run it in - done hunter/warden/LM, minnie/2 champs and others, and been the cappy, champ and hunter myself. Looking forward to being the LM.
    105s: Aedfrith (HN), Aldnoth (CP), Brai (RK), Hrolfdan (MN), Aeldfryd (WD), Morriarty (CH), Aednoth (LM), Mishhar (BR), Hraldan (GR), Rummbold (BG). Tinies - Rumbelina (MN), Aenghus (CP)
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aedfrith View Post
    Yup, but I wouldn't go Sword-Halls HM without anti-stun. Cappy/champ/LM with cappy kiting Durkar is by far the easiest combo I've run it in - done hunter/warden/LM, minnie/2 champs and others, and been the cappy, champ and hunter myself. Looking forward to being the LM.
    SH t2 hm can be done w/o SI, its just more convenient with it. Farmed it with warden/champ/hunter for champ boots and those were pretty quick runs too. 3min runs?maybe 4?
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  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aedfrith View Post
    Yup, but I wouldn't go Sword-Halls HM without anti-stun. Cappy/champ/LM with cappy kiting Durkar is by far the easiest combo I've run it in - done hunter/warden/LM, minnie/2 champs and others, and been the cappy, champ and hunter myself. Looking forward to being the LM.
    I've run SH challenge without LM's SI. 1 cap, 2 champ, and we dont even kite, just stand toe to toe dps the #### out of them.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Hiritier View Post
    I've run SH challenge without LM's SI. 1 cap, 2 champ, and we dont even kite, just stand toe to toe dps the #### out of them.
    Ran SH T2C with 3 LMs. U really have to try it out. The trash mobs disappear. Between 3 Ents, 3LS and 3 ISGs U don't see their morale going down, they just disappear.

  18. #18
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    are you talking about after U10 content?

    yes, it's redicualesly easy that T2cm's can be done naked (try that too). I even solo'ed fornost water when someone said it was hard, it took a few hours but it was harder to dps than survive.

    since U10 you could do SHt2cm with almost any class combinations. the bats got epic nurfed (they barely stun now too), and the bosses hit like kittens now. and our dps has increased a lot with first-agers and some creative jewls, so it's not just the mob nurf of U10.

    lastly, players are just the controller, classes are the tools, instances is the challange. it depends how creatively you can use the tools get though the challange. but your only as good as your tools will allow.
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  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by bohbashum View Post
    but your only as good as your tools will allow.
    You can push dem limits though so that they allow you to do more with what you have.
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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patriotp3a View Post
    You can push dem limits though so that they allow you to do more with what you have.
    then your perception of what your tools could do were wrong.
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  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by bohbashum View Post
    I even solo'ed fornost water when someone said it was hard, it took a few hours but it was harder to dps than survive.
    I suppose you mean T1? If so then yes, the first 3 wings are soloable by LM and warden and maybe even champ at T1. And yes i was talking about U11.

    About the tool thingy its just a philosophical term u used there thats not even accurate enough, coz gear plays a huge part in ur class' efficiency obviously. And some players are better in grp content than at solo, coz soloing tough stuff requires a huge amount of concentration and a lagless platform.

    As a side note i fear that we will get the short end of the stick from the new traiting system. So rage away in challenges

 

 

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