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  1. #1
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    Warden Twitter Question

    Q19: @greendragoon Is there going to be any effort to streamline the Warden's massive (and convoluted) abilitiy list? #LOTRO
    A19: DeviledEgg In short, yes. Some gambits are being trimmed, some are being placed in different specialization.
    A19a: The total number of gambits will be decided by how you choose to specialize.


    -Thoughts? I assume that most of our gambits are being thrown out, at least partly.
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  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Elrohasra View Post
    Q19: @greendragoon Is there going to be any effort to streamline the Warden's massive (and convoluted) abilitiy list? #LOTRO
    A19: DeviledEgg In short, yes. Some gambits are being trimmed, some are being placed in different specialization.
    A19a: The total number of gambits will be decided by how you choose to specialize.


    -Thoughts? I assume that most of our gambits are being thrown out, at least partly.
    This was the answer I expected to hear, but it was no less disappointing to hear it knowing it was coming.

    What I said in that thread was there were 2 gambits i consider junk at the moment, and every other one sees regular use by me while both dpsing or tanking. I don't see how our functionality (note this is entirely different from how potent we are) can be maintained without consolidating effects from multiple gambits into one, which strikes me as simplifying the class for the sole sake of simplification. There are a handful of gambits at most that I think fall into the convoluted category (i'm looking at you, fist shield gambits in assailment), but the openness of choices and 'challenge' of the gambit system is exactly why I play the class. Losing out on gambit choices and being forced to only use those gambits a Dev belatedly decided were necessary for a given role because someone rolled a class billed as advanced and then balked at the effort it took to learn and master it is going to be a bitter pill for me to swallow.

    Advanced class argument derailment incoming.
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  3. #3
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    I agree wiht the basis of the idea. I am just concerned that by taking away the build time for some gambits and by letting us use fist-shield gambits in assailment, we will be open to a huge incomming nerf after HD goes live. It most likely won't even pass beta, if there is a PvP test within the first or second weeks.
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  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Elrohasra View Post
    I agree wiht the basis of the idea. I am just concerned that by taking away the build time for some gambits and by letting us use fist-shield gambits in assailment, we will be open to a huge incomming nerf after HD goes live. It most likely won't even pass beta, if there is a PvP test within the first or second weeks.
    Huh? You quoted someone who suggested the class was convoluted, I was suggesting that the only part of the class I find to be convoluted is the gambits that are melee only gambits in what is otherwise a ranged only stance.

    The points of my post are:
    The class is not convoluted (small examples aside)
    There are almost no useless gambits, cutting us down to around 20 will remove gambits that I use all the time.
    reducing our gambit choices will either reduce the functionality we bring, or require merging the effects of multiple gambits on live now, into single gambits with HD.
    The class is marked as advanced, and even now it its OP glory remains one of the most difficult to play at the highest level, I'm concerned the Devs are intentionally simplifying the class.


    Don't hold your breath for any PvMP testing in Beta.
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    Don't hold your breath for any PvMP testing in Beta.
    PvMP in beta consists of freeps either steamrolling the creeps at a 10:1 ratio, or freeps getting bored and exploiting themselves into Grams. I think it's a pretty safe bet that you won't get any sort of reliable testing out of it.
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  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    Huh? You quoted someone who suggested the class was convoluted, I was suggesting that the only part of the class I find to be convoluted is the gambits that are melee only gambits in what is otherwise a ranged only stance.
    I should have clarified, I meant I agreed with the previous post, not the question I quoted. I also agree with your points, I haven't really found anything that is useless. Except for things like fist-shield gambits in assailment, I also found the point of the shield-spear buffs to be a little underwhelming if I am trying to dps a target quickly in PvP.
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    Losing out on gambit choices and being forced to only use those gambits a Dev belatedly decided were necessary for a given role because someone rolled a class billed as advanced and then balked at the effort it took to learn and master it is going to be a bitter pill for me to swallow.
    there are still some gambits that I would like to be swapped around and many ranged gambits to be updated.

    I just hope aggro isn't so much of a straight line to some, EoB still seems too good imo. moral-taps should be a bit more chunky and hots be less Ez mode. I'm sure they could make quicker to use gambits a little more of a boost too by buffing later gambits (how I see "gambit gating" working). I also would hope that some crazy Ez mode tanking gambits that are used excessively in moors get gated towards certain lines so that there is a bigger differance between blue warden and red warden in moors. when I play red/yellow warden and ONLY moral-tap, I feel quite balanced tbh. some gambits (21212/EoB) seem over kill to me. our survival skills also need a look at. defiant challange is clearly going to be changed. my expectation is into 2 skills, a survival one and a quicker (still long-ish cooldown) forced taunt thats more reliable.

    I'm sure we'll see lodes of potency changes on gambits too. and like I hinted before, I think it'll be the longer gambits that will be gated in some way. if it's there design to move out of hybrid classes into more pure classes, the very hybrid warden might get a wake up call in what pure really means.
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  8. #8
    A19a: The total number of gambits will be decided by how you choose to specialize.
    We already had to stance dance to access specific effects on our gambits, so I don't see this as being an improvement but more of a regression from U6.
    When U6 came out, I felt a bit overwhelmed by the number of gambits to memorize, particularly because for an already capped warden I couldn't learn them as I was unlocking them and I had to take the time to learn my class again.
    I am certainly biased, as I don't really want the gameplay of my beloved warden to be impoverished. I like where we are now (in term of gameplay, I'm not starting an effectiveness thread ).

    I just hope that "useful in every situation" skills will be available without having to specialise. I'm looking at you, Reversal.

    Thinking about it, it's probably for the best if they manage to restrict us from being a tank-healer-dps powerhouse. I like to solo stuff, but we are completely broken in that regard at the moment.

    Skills that have no particular effect when not in the adequate stance (spear bleeds ?) can probably go, even though I prefer to have the possibility to use a useless-ish gambit if I screw up my "plan".
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  9. #9
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    I was wondering if and when this thread was going to start.

    Quote Originally Posted by Torfs View Post
    We already had to stance dance to access specific effects on our gambits, so I don't see this as being an improvement but more of a regression from U6.
    From the way it reads, and other stuff mentioned in the dev chat and other posts by devs since I kinda see:

    1. Stance dancing going away..
    a. STANCES are going away

    2. Wardens will have to wait until out of combat and then they hit their button to change their ENTIRE skill set to go from DPS to Tank or whatever they will call A$$ailment.
    a. Expect only skillset Determination to have aggro holding skills, plus ony those traits to increase aggro to be in this line.
    b. Expect whatever skillset Recklessness becomes to have Aggro DROP skills to the traits.
    c. A$$ailment.. sigh.. probably a continuation down the path of making range skills, with more groupwide support.

    3. Javelin skill will probably be consolidated into A$$ailment trait line.

    4. Travel skills will not be touched.

    BTW.. as an over all statement, looking at the plans... Turbine appears to no longer care about how long time players feel. This will be a re-write of ALL classes from the ground up, so NO one will really know how to play thier class when Helm's Deep comes out. I am rather disappointed but hope I am wrong and they can pull this off. History, on the other hand, begs to differ.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Darlgon View Post
    I was wondering if and when this thread was going to start.



    From the way it reads, and other stuff mentioned in the dev chat and other posts by devs since I kinda see:

    1. Stance dancing going away..
    a. STANCES are going away

    2. Wardens will have to wait until out of combat and then they hit their button to change their ENTIRE skill set to go from DPS to Tank or whatever they will call A$$ailment.
    a. Expect only skillset Determination to have aggro holding skills, plus ony those traits to increase aggro to be in this line.
    b. Expect whatever skillset Recklessness becomes to have Aggro DROP skills to the traits.
    c. A$$ailment.. sigh.. probably a continuation down the path of making range skills, with more groupwide support.

    3. Javelin skill will probably be consolidated into A$$ailment trait line.

    4. Travel skills will not be touched.

    BTW.. as an over all statement, looking at the plans... Turbine appears to no longer care about how long time players feel. This will be a re-write of ALL classes from the ground up, so NO one will really know how to play thier class when Helm's Deep comes out. I am rather disappointed but hope I am wrong and they can pull this off. History, on the other hand, begs to differ.
    I'm a pretty big Turbine critic, but wow...

    What makes you think stances are going away? I'll bet the farm they stay.

    My ability to tank while dps traited, or dps while tank traited will likely be going way down, but currently if i want to respect from tanking to dps, I have to map to galtrev and visit the bard, then map/port back before continuing on my way.

    Whats wrong with a class that wields a legendary Javelin having a ranged dps stance? a buff to our group buffs is certainly in order for this line to be what was originally intended, but what do you think is a better third role than ranged dps to go along with melee dps and tanking?
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    I'm a pretty big Turbine critic, but wow...

    What makes you think stances are going away? I'll bet the farm they stay.
    as the best stance dancing class, I do too think warden will keep his stances. maybe have just a melee and ranged stance and gate all taking ability behind a blue trait or something.

    I doubt they will remove them... I dunno, it just seems too much work lost from when they made assailment special.

    I would agree with the javalin bit though. it does seem like an un-needed factor to have instant cast javalins next to javalin gambits and normal gambits.

    maybe this sort of gambit gating will be exactly that, a few new lines to unlock ranged gambits that fit with that spec. a blue wardens gets damage debuffing ranged gambits, a yellow warden debuffs enemies defences and the red warden can stack more dps like javalin toss and wages of fear and javalin of deadly force.
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  12. #12
    Wow... the cooky cutter wardens thread comes to mind right now, as does the one about turbine ripping out the wardens heart. I play lotro for the warden specifically. It's my favorite part of this game, and in any other game I go for something as close as I can come to it. It is easily my favorite class in any game I've ever played, and lotro is my favorite game because of it. If this is really as bad as it sounds like, I'm going to be playing rift. I really hope turbine doesn't botch this up, and even if they do implement trait trees without messing up the class, I still simply prefer a plain 'ol trait system like we had before. Also, about all those trait slots I bought, what will become of those? This is sad, but hey, at least I had my fun while it lasted. Back to boring old click button classes now.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darlgon View Post
    1. Stance dancing going away..
    a. STANCES are going away
    I would agree that it can be expected that our stances will be going away, according to the chat and various dev journals all classes with stances will have the stances replaced or edited in some way. I think however, that considering many wardens find the ability to swap stances in a fight to be useful, a chance to change this in the HD beta will arise. I doubt that a few complaints would scrap the whole idea, but we might actually be able to get a compromise. I would even be satisfied with a restriction to where determination is not available when traited DPS, but at least we can switch between recklessness or assailment. It still isn't extremely overwhelming. The one thing I would find downright stupid and naive for turbine to do, is to not let PvP wardens swap out of assailment in combat. I switch to recklessness constantly when I am "too close" for assailment. Of course, removing the "too close" would also fix this.
    On a note a bit unrelated to what is stated above: I am rather eager to see if the trait trees affect our DPS positively, such as an actual trait line dedicated to ranged damage instead of some weird anti-threat/dps and cooldown reduction hybrid.
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elrohasra View Post
    I would agree that it can be expected that our stances will be going away, according to the chat and various dev journals all classes with stances will have the stances replaced or edited in some way.
    Quote Originally Posted by RockX View Post
    So, the "20 skills" issue is something I'd like to address.

    First, it is referring to skills which actively impact gameplay. Things such as teleports, pets, stances, and fluff skills (and probably another category which I'm not thinking of off the top of my head) will not count against that amount.
    (Bolding is my own emphasis.)
    I dunno about you, but I read that as "stances are staying".
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  15. #15
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    Yeah, staying but most likely altered. I'd just assume that whatever we want we couldn't get but if we make a sufficient amount of noise in beta we can reach something to be content with. For the sake of keeping an open mind, we may even LIKE the trait tree system.
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  16. #16
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    None of your facts here, TinDragon. Only melodrama allowed!
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elrohasra View Post
    Yeah, staying but most likely altered. I'd just assume that whatever we want we couldn't get but if we make a sufficient amount of noise in beta we can reach something to be content with. For the sake of keeping an open mind, we may even LIKE the trait tree system.
    I still don't understand why you think they'll be changed at all. I've seen nothing from the devs indicating they're even looking at modifying stances.

    Quote Originally Posted by furtim View Post
    None of your facts here, TinDragon. Only melodrama allowed!
    Dangit, I forgot. My bad.
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  18. #18
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    The trait trees are being incorporated into the game and most skills are going to be changed or thrown out and redone. Ok so what that can been interpreted as is; maybe they aren't changing the stance itself, but everything that is included in the stance is undergoing changes. They also stated that they will be moving away from hybrid builds. For wardens this can mean a number of things, recklessness can be considered a hybrid between bleeds and melee DPS. Assailment can be considered a weird hybrid between ranged DPS, threat decrease, and a more narrow amount of bleeds. I would say that turbine might even break the trait trees into different focuses (not bothering to elaborate since this is just deduced from the given facts, use your imagination). The bright side still remains that on beta if we are actually active, as a class, in making suggestions on the BR forum then it is likely that something will go in our favor.
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  19. #19
    Well, this has gone viral. Quick guys, we're nearly on page two, we gotta derail it fast!

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by wannabe_falconer View Post
    Well, this has gone viral. Quick guys, we're nearly on page two, we gotta derail it fast!


    There's really no pleasing you, is there?
    Here we are having a discussion about changes to our class,
    even with the lack of specific information.
    Really? We must derail? I think that's
    especially crazy.

    Young wardens need this information, and
    older wardens can benefit from it as well. We're all
    upstanding citizens in the line, after all.

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  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elrohasra View Post
    The trait trees are being incorporated into the game and most skills are going to be changed or thrown out and redone. Ok so what that can been interpreted as is; maybe they aren't changing the stance itself, but everything that is included in the stance is undergoing changes. They also stated that they will be moving away from hybrid builds. For wardens this can mean a number of things, recklessness can be considered a hybrid between bleeds and melee DPS. Assailment can be considered a weird hybrid between ranged DPS, threat decrease, and a more narrow amount of bleeds. I would say that turbine might even break the trait trees into different focuses (not bothering to elaborate since this is just deduced from the given facts, use your imagination). The bright side still remains that on beta if we are actually active, as a class, in making suggestions on the BR forum then it is likely that something will go in our favor.
    They haven't said anything about throwing out skills or redoing them. All they've said is A) some skills will be available independent of traits, and some will be limited to certain points in the tree, and B) some skills are going to be combined in order to reduce the total number of skills. Nothing about completely removing or redoing skills.

    I think you're a little confused on what a hybrid build is as well. A hybrid build is, say, combining heals and DPS. Not combining melee DPS and bleeds. For Warden, a hybrid would be combining some amount of tanking with some amount of DPSing.
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  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Mister_Underhill View Post


    There's really no pleasing you, is there?
    Here we are having a discussion about changes to our class,
    even with the lack of specific information.
    Really? We must derail? I think that's
    especially crazy.

    Young wardens need this information, and
    older wardens can benefit from it as well. We're all
    upstanding citizens in the line, after all.

    Greatness comes from accepting your inner Waden.
    Overthrow Steve!
    I wasn't being serious... I don't actually want a derail. Nice pic btw.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by TinDragon View Post
    I think you're a little confused on what a hybrid build is as well. A hybrid build is, say, combining heals and DPS. Not combining melee DPS and bleeds. For Warden, a hybrid would be combining some amount of tanking with some amount of DPSing.
    With the skill trees it will probably make you choose between dps and bleed. So if they keep our bleeds in both stances then it will be a hybrid. So chances are, we won't get 1k damage bleeds in either stance anymore.
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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elrohasra View Post
    With the skill trees it will probably make you choose between dps and bleed. So if they keep our bleeds in both stances then it will be a hybrid. So chances are, we won't get 1k damage bleeds in either stance anymore.
    Or they'll create the three branches of the tree based on the three branches you already have: ranged, melee, and tank. What, based on Turbine's previous history or how the class functions, would make you assume they'd split the tree into "DPS" and "bleed"?
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  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by TinDragon View Post
    Or they'll create the three branches of the tree based on the three branches you already have: ranged, melee, and tank. What, based on Turbine's previous history or how the class functions, would make you assume they'd split the tree into "DPS" and "bleed"?
    I am not basing this on turbine except for the fact that they mentioned they are changing to trait trees. Other games feature trees involving bleeds.
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