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Thread: RK revamp

  1. #1

    RK revamp

    How do you think the skill trees are going to effect the RK's ability to both heal and dps? If necessary, are we going to be able switch from dps to healing in a single battle? What kind of effect will this have on attunement? Any ideas?

  2. #2
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    This is similar to what I have been wondering as well. The reason I picked RK for my main is that heal traited I can heal almost like a mini and lightning traited i can dps almost like a hunter. To me the whole reason for the class is that we can do either, but not both (at the same time). I looked through the dev chat from last night and see that they say you will be able to change specializations...for a price. This, I hope, will allow us to keep most of that versatility as long as the price is somewhat reasonable. (Talked to a kinny and he said in rift a complete respec cost about 100g) They also say we can change traits without having to go to a bard as long as we are out of combat, so we would be able to do a bit of switching at least. And I dont think it would have much affect on out attunement other than the fact that there wont be several skills that grey out when you hit your first attack/heal because they just wont exist.
    At this point with no more info than they are giving and a silent dev I think all we can do is wait....and pray.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mattrix View Post
    To me the whole reason for the class is that we can do either, but not both (at the same time).
    I don't know if it's ever been explicitly said but I feel this, especially the last part, is one of the main goals. They want Rune-Keepers to do good damage or good heals. One or the other but never both at the same time.

    Will we be able to off-heal a 3-man in full DPS spec? No idea. We will all have to wait for open beta to find out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mattrix View Post
    At this point with no more info than they are giving and a silent dev I think all we can do is wait....and pray.
    Maybe even the devs are not sure yet where everything is going to land. Maybe the "improved" RK hasn't even gotten off the design board? Perhaps we're lying gutted with our skills hanging out on some MMORPG class operating table with the devs standing around humming, saying "I think we'll give all the bubbles to Minstrels (lying on another operating table next to Rune-Keepers). They've been QQ:ing a lot about Rune-Keepers being too good" or "I think we'll take out Mending Verse and give them Bolster Courage instead, I think I saw on the forums that RKs like to be BC spam bots".

    Would you want to hear "A will happen and B will not" only to find out later that "We found A to be boring and went for B instead"? Imagine the QQ. I for one would rather get a dev post stating how things will be, baring minor balance tweaks, than a lot of "I think we'll maybe do this".
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  4. #4
    my concern is that we'll lose some of our utility. I was dpsing in a group and the Minnie went down. it took me a minute to get reattuned, but when I did, I took over healing. i'm just wondering how something like that is gonna play out with the trees. is that even going to be possible? but, you're right. until more information comes out, all we can do is cross our fingers and pray.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Templa View Post
    How do you think the skill trees are going to effect the RK's ability to both heal and dps? If necessary, are we going to be able switch from dps to healing in a single battle? What kind of effect will this have on attunement? Any ideas?
    Reading about the devchat of yesterday i have some thoughts about it.
    It looks like people will have just 2 trait lines, not 3.

    Personally i think we still will be able to heal and DPS (one trait tree for each role).
    By one side, things will be better for us. Trait lines will be like war-steed trait lines, which two free presets. This means you can go full heal or dps in the same instance if u have both sets on ur bag (you wont need Bard to retrait). This is great

    On other hand, hearing we will have just 2 trait trees makes me wonder what they will do with Lightning+Cleanser. Which one will stay? Will they union them?
    Im not so sure i'll enjoy how this will end, since i love both trait lines.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mattrix View Post
    This is similar to what I have been wondering as well. The reason I picked RK for my main is that heal traited I can heal almost like a mini and lightning traited i can dps almost like a hunter.
    Just dont forget you can do MORE dps than a hunter traited fire :P

    Quote Originally Posted by Mattrix View Post
    At this point with no more info than they are giving and a silent dev I think all we can do is wait....and pray.
    Yeah same thoughts here. Im worried about what they will do to us, specially when they say "everyone will have to sacrifice survivability for dps, and vice versa".
    Bah, theres no way to make us squishier, what they plan to do? =/

    I tried run 3 questions on dev chats about RKs but they just ignored me...
    Lets hope we got some dev diaries soon.
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  6. #6
    If you'd kept reading the transcript thread, you'd note that sapience cleared up that gross misconception. Every class will have 3 trees, just as you currently have 3 trait lines(r/b/y). At no point did they state or even imply there woudl be only 2, that is something people without a long enough attention span read into things.

  7. #7
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    Thumbs up

    Sound like keeep rk attunment & dual function in combat with trait trees will be specially complicate to build. Well i choose this class cause i like challenges. Looking forward to tree system .
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  8. #8
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    I really hope they're not going to dumb down--or worse, nerf--my RK.

    Our goal, and it isn’t the same across the board, is for all classes to have around 20 skills after spending all their points.
    A15a: Things like travel paths will not count towards this cap.
    So let's say I'm DPSing. Right now there are 7 fire skills and 7 lightning skills. Let's say I'm willing to sacrifice Sustaining Bolt (power's never a problem) and Essay of Fire (I just piggyback it onto better skills). Now that's 12 used. Give me Writ of Cold for a short AOE burst, and Essence of Winter for some decent DPS, and let's say lose the rest of the Chill of Winter skills. Up to 14. Gotta have Final Word for corruption removal and Calming Verse to drop threat. 16. I'm not going into a group without my OOC rez, and I want the SANE for curing. 18. Have to have DNF to Flame/Storm for some instances. 19. Now, let's say that in our case, "around 20" means 22. So I can have my Rock, Prelude to Hope, and Writ of Health on the healing side while I'm DPSing.

    I'm sorry. That takes an awesome class and makes it boring. I play an RK so that I can adapt to the situation as needed. I have healed on a DPS trait line when the healer went down. I have used Steady Hands or steadying attunement skills to switch to DPS while healing in order to deal a final blow on a boss to make the fight that much shorter.

    If I wanted to stand there with a short rotation, I'd main a cappy.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galwimloth View Post
    I really hope they're not going to dumb down--or worse, nerf--my RK.



    So let's say I'm DPSing. Right now there are 7 fire skills and 7 lightning skills. Let's say I'm willing to sacrifice Sustaining Bolt (power's never a problem) and Essay of Fire (I just piggyback it onto better skills). Now that's 12 used. Give me Writ of Cold for a short AOE burst, and Essence of Winter for some decent DPS, and let's say lose the rest of the Chill of Winter skills. Up to 14. Gotta have Final Word for corruption removal and Calming Verse to drop threat. 16. I'm not going into a group without my OOC rez, and I want the SANE for curing. 18. Have to have DNF to Flame/Storm for some instances. 19. Now, let's say that in our case, "around 20" means 22. So I can have my Rock, Prelude to Hope, and Writ of Health on the healing side while I'm DPSing.

    I'm sorry. That takes an awesome class and makes it boring. I play an RK so that I can adapt to the situation as needed. I have healed on a DPS trait line when the healer went down. I have used Steady Hands or steadying attunement skills to switch to DPS while healing in order to deal a final blow on a boss to make the fight that much shorter.

    If I wanted to stand there with a short rotation, I'd main a cappy.
    Why not just give up some of your DPS skills instead of all of your healing skills? Fire isn't very effective when lightning traited, and lightning isn't very effective when fire traited. Just keep all the skills for your main trait, keep all the healing skills you need in a pinch, and if you've got some left over, then throw in your extra DPS skills from the other line.
    It may be a little limiting, but it's going to lead to some interesting builds.
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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by TinDragon View Post
    Why not just give up some of your DPS skills instead of all of your healing skills? Fire isn't very effective when lightning traited, and lightning isn't very effective when fire traited. Just keep all the skills for your main trait, keep all the healing skills you need in a pinch, and if you've got some left over, then throw in your extra DPS skills from the other line.
    It may be a little limiting, but it's going to lead to some interesting builds.
    Suppose I've just popped Calming Verse and want to get back up to attumement quickly. Scribe's Spark followed by Ceaseless Argument. I want to kite a little and still do some damage. Essence of Storm. To stun so that I take less damage against a mob. Shocking Words. To finish off a mob who has ~2500 health. Epic Conclusion. As a panic button to keep myself alive when surrounded. Vivid Imagery.

    All those skills either save me time, or on occasion might save my life. Why should I have to give up any of that in the name of becoming more like a hunter?

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galwimloth View Post
    Suppose I've just popped Calming Verse and want to get back up to attumement quickly. Scribe's Spark followed by Ceaseless Argument. I want to kite a little and still do some damage. Essence of Storm. To stun so that I take less damage against a mob. Shocking Words. To finish off a mob who has ~2500 health. Epic Conclusion. As a panic button to keep myself alive when surrounded. Vivid Imagery.

    All those skills either save me time, or on occasion might save my life.
    Then those are good reasons to go with those skills over your healing skills. I will prefer to pick my healing skills instead of delving into both DPS skills. Like I said before, it's gonna lead to some interesting builds, and since we haven't even seen the system yet, you may wanna hold off on saying you won't have enough skills.

    Why should I have to give up any of that in the name of becoming more like a hunter?
    I don't understand how you not being able to trait down multiple lines makes you more like a hunter, who often trait down both red and blue lines at the same time.
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by TinDragon View Post
    Then those are good reasons to go with those skills over your healing skills. I will prefer to pick my healing skills instead of delving into both DPS skills. Like I said before, it's gonna lead to some interesting builds, and since we haven't even seen the system yet, you may wanna hold off on saying you won't have enough skills.
    True. This could be good. Maybe they'll double the DPS and halve the cooldown of Smouldering Wrath to compensate. But what they're saying is that it's going to be a simplification, which I don't want.


    I don't understand how you not being able to trait down multiple lines makes you more like a hunter, who often trait down both red and blue lines at the same time.
    Because hunters don't heal. By this concept, if my raid leader calls out, "Mini is down, RK switch to healing," I'm going to have to respond with, "Sorry, I traited for my stuns. Guess it's a wipe."

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galwimloth View Post
    Because hunters don't heal. By this concept, if my raid leader calls out, "Mini is down, RK switch to healing," I'm going to have to respond with, "Sorry, I traited for my stuns. Guess it's a wipe."
    Haha, fair enough.
    I have the feeling (though no proof) we may be able to focus on using our points on an extra amount of skills by giving up some other traits instead of going straight for their ~20 skills and a reasonable amount of traits. (I'm also assuming this may work the other way too, pick even less skills for even more boosts.) While I'm not sure if that'd help or hurt in this case, it'll be interesting to see. Maybe give up a little bit of DPS in order to throw in your bubble and Rousing Words.

    I'm definitely against simplification, but if the system works out like I'm imagining that it will, it may lead to a ton of diversity in the process without giving up too much that we have now. Unfortunately, I guess we'll have to wait and see how diversity and simplification actually end up balancing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by thefamilyosc View Post
    If you'd kept reading the transcript thread, you'd note that sapience cleared up that gross misconception. Every class will have 3 trees, just as you currently have 3 trait lines(r/b/y). At no point did they state or even imply there woudl be only 2, that is something people without a long enough attention span read into things.
    At twitter they did tell it would have just 2 for hunters. Thats where this history born.
    If they cleared it after, its ok.
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  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by Abbiati View Post
    At twitter they did tell it would have just 2 for hunters. Thats where this history born.
    If they cleared it after, its ok.
    No, in Twitter they were comparing two of the hunter trait lines, and then later in the Twitter Q&A they talked about the third line.
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  16. #16
    TinDragon

    I have the feeling (though no proof) we may be able to focus on using our points on an extra amount of skills by giving up some other traits instead of going straight for their ~20 skills and a reasonable amount of traits. (I'm also assuming this may work the other way too, pick even less skills for even more boosts.) While I'm not sure if that'd help or hurt in this case, it'll be interesting to see. Maybe give up a little bit of DPS in order to throw in your bubble and Rousing Words.
    This is my thought as well. The Prestige Enhancements in DDO kinda lean in this general direction.

    I'm curious though to see if this will affect the Dagor and Nestad parchments any. If not then you may have access to Epic for the Ages when it is most needed.

  17. #17
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    I just hope the Developer remembers this is supposed to be an advanced class that can do many things in their fellowship. Just like a Captain does a lot for the group.

  18. #18
    I think if we are limited to ~20 skills, then attunement needs to changed, so that it gates less skills

    I'd hate to see 5-10 of my 20 skills greyed out because of attunement

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Chris91 View Post
    I think if we are limited to ~20 skills, then attunement needs to changed, so that it gates less skills

    I'd hate to see 5-10 of my 20 skills greyed out because of attunement
    Fix RK outgoing damage and outgoing healing at 25% potency totally neutral.

    +5% to the skill-type used's potency and -5% to the opposite type on every skill used.

    Neither side can ever fall below 25% and no skills greyed out/gated.

    You could change 25% to whatever is fair... 55%, 65%, etc.

    Hmmm?
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  20. #20
    I'm guessing that the way things will shake out is that they're going to use your specs to determine which skills you can use. You'll have trait trees which will open up various skills. Then when you spec, you can put any of your opened skills into your 20 skill limit spec. So you could have a lightening DPS spec with several healing skills in it, or a healing spec with several frost-line debuff skills in it. I think the "tough choices" they're talking about are the choices you'll have to make with each spec as to which 20 skills you're going to be able to use within a given spec. A lightening speced RK will no longer have access to all of their healing, frost, fire and utility skills because of the 20 skill limit.

    Where Turbine will make their $$$ is selling addtional spec templates through the store. You start with two that come for free, but can buy additional ones.
    Last edited by Nouri; Aug 30 2013 at 03:57 PM.

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  21. #21
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    hummm

    seems fot the first time it was wise to cap both mini and rk... i always had in mind i roll the rk to dps and mini to devoted heals...since i dont spend to much time with rk , i dont really know what half of my rk do.. a simplification to the number of skills with trees and diferent posible outpost seems a way for me to concentrate and know the potencial of those 20 skills ...but it does hurt me to tjink about how this will play out in my main thats a mini....still noob at rk and find this thread really helpful
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  22. #22
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    The biggest questions are (1) how many skills will we have per build (2) what skills (if any) are going away (3) how will 'The Middle Path' utility skills be affected (4) how will attunement work with a scaled back skill rotation (5) how will any change to attunement affect our ability to switch from say DPS to a Spot Heal role while still in combat.
    Last edited by JeauxLOTR; Aug 30 2013 at 08:19 PM.

  23. #23
    There are:

    5 Chill of Winter Skills.

    7 Fury of Storm Skills.

    9 Middle Path Skills.

    4 Visions and Fortellings Skills.

    11 Words of Grace Skills.

    7 Wrath of Flame Skills.

    43 total Skills.

    I'm a bit curious to see how these will be able to be used using the tree system.

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    Combustion sounds sweet, little peek into our new skills! 8)

  25. #25
    To be honest, I'm very reluctant regarding the revamp. To begin with, it looks as if we will have to choose between fire and lightning, and I do want to use them both when I like, and also, I don't want any battle skill to consume battle attunement, because it is something which makes RK's unique and it will hinder any killing spree. Battle attunement will become almost the same as focus for hunters and fervour for champions (and I have one of both, so I know).

 

 
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