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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Patriotp3a View Post
    Ah yea, sorry didnt explain myself better. What i meant was X setup is the best for this. y setup is best for that. Its not really number crunching unless the dps part. There will be build threads within the week of launch i take it. People runnign tests and posting data
    oh, sorry then.

    yeah, I expect to see lodes of number crunching for even months after release.

    I think it'll be more cross class now though. like how does the red burglar match up to the red warden, or RK vs Hunter which is always nice to watch. we all know the core is different, but it's nice to see how each REALLY matches against each other on the playing field.

    I can't wait to be reading/sharing screen shots to mini-max everything ^_^

    in truth there probably will be an all-round great line (probably huntsman again), a jack of all trades, which can do a bit of everything quite nicely. but I hope that the people who are willing to swap out to another line is rewarded enough.
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  2. #27
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    I'm cautiously optimistic. I'm extremely happy about the traps now being skills. And they've all got individual cooldowns too!

    I hope the skill combinations that I currently use won't get screwed up.

    I also wonder if they're going to get rid of some of the ridiculous long animation pauses in some of our skills. They did mention they were fixing a champ skill... hope they fix some of ours too.
    Chromite (Hunter) - Grumbletocks (Guardian) on Landroval, Appendage (Hunter) on Brandywine

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by bohbashum View Post
    oh, sorry then.

    yeah, I expect to see lodes of number crunching for even months after release.

    I think it'll be more cross class now though. like how does the red burglar match up to the red warden, or RK vs Hunter which is always nice to watch. we all know the core is different, but it's nice to see how each REALLY matches against each other on the playing field.

    I can't wait to be reading/sharing screen shots to mini-max everything ^_^

    in truth there probably will be an all-round great line (probably huntsman again), a jack of all trades, which can do a bit of everything quite nicely. but I hope that the people who are willing to swap out to another line is rewarded enough.
    Yep. Brace yourself for the Hunter vs Champion vs Burg vs Rk threads. Crunching numbers numbers to see who will be the "top". At first its gonna be useful stuff where people give and take advice for new builds, then off to 1 upping other classes :P which is quite entertaining to read through. Its a whole new level of limits which is awesome imo. Not sure how things will be implemented but we could use the change tbh. As for swapping lines, I could see alot of people going for that mainstrem "best" dps build. Personally, im prob gonna play around with the other lines and combinations more. Seeing big numbers and high meters is fun and all, but it gets so boring to be just dishing out as much damage as possible :P
    S.S.D.D. I mean, cant speak for everyone but the top players will no doubt master all lines and combinations quickly and decide from there.

    As for the skills, certain classes have more than 20 skills. Having that reduced could be an issue for those who use almost if not all their skills regularly. If you dont, guess it wont bother you as much if at all.

    For those with no faith in revamps...while I understand where you are coming from, just take what they give us and make the best of it and enjoy the game. They do a good job or not, I may love iy or hate it, im still gonna play my class to the best of my ability with what I am given. Not gonna lose sleep over it. Dont want my class to be broken but at the same time dont want it to be stupidly op that every other class is trying to gank with a nerf bat. Theres always going to be pros and cons.....yet we will see future posts like "amg class is broken qq do we have real devs" and "wow, they made class sooooo 1 button facerollingonmykeyboard ezmode". Theres always gonna be those people no matter how balanced(or an attempt to) the class is. Most cases its the player , not the class.
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  4. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by bohbashum View Post
    -snip-
    Quote Originally Posted by Cirgellon View Post
    How about, if you can't handle other peoples opinions, you leave the forums? This is not how you go about particiting in forums as you'll continually be crying about other opinions.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cirgellon View Post
    That was quite the waste of a post. Did you really think I was going to read past the first word of it? Why would I care what you think? You are crying about an opinion... What a clown.

    Well judging by what you said, since you couldn't handles his opinions then shouldn't you leave the forums?
    FYI You are also crying about his opinion, thus making you yourself a clown.
    P.S.: You also wasted a post as well.

    Focus does not define the hunter class at all, it is their burst DPS that does.
    Focus is just a mechanic that helps achieve the class to earn what defines it.
    Same will go for Champ and Fervour, LMs and CC, Minis/RKs and heals, Captains and Kill response, Guards/Wards and aggro

    As said before, why are you judging bout something that you have no info on before making the first move?
    Last edited by lioheart; Aug 24 2013 at 03:10 AM.

  5. #30
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    From a non-Hunter player's perspective (I know, I have a Hunter, I'm just trying to imagine), they would probably not even know what Focus is. They would just know Hunters use bows, they do pew pew and stuff, usually the one who is pulling aggro, etc. The bow defines the class, I would say. "im looking for a bow class" "Oh, try the Hunter."

    As for inductions on the move - Cirgellon remarked that he was against that, long time ago, and thinks Hunters should be standing still. Well, MC allows you to shoot on the go. It is not unrealistic (inb4 "im not saying it isnt unrealistic", etc), for mounted archery was actually legit and was effective (eg: Mongols). The Parthians were famous for their Parthian shot, usually by feigning defeat and their riders turn back to shoot their enemies while their horses gallop at full speed. They control their horses solely on pressure from their legs, no fancy tools, just skill.

    Sorry for the sidetrack, I just want to say that shooting on a horse would (probably - I'm no expert on archery) be as hard, if not harder, than shooting on foot, while moving.
    If you truly want to define the Hunter, then they should make us a CC class, we trap stuff and that, we might as well rely on poison and stuff (tranquilizing purposes), the blowing up stuff part might be optional since if you have something trapped you might as well stab then dead, skin them, cook them and eat them. Unless you decide to shoot birds in the air anyway. Inb4 people start talking about hunting dogs and other pets.

    My personal opinion.

    PS: @Cirgellon, every time I read the conversation between you and bobashum, it... I dunno how to describe the feeling, but it was odd. You are contradicting yourself, and that attitude just isn't going to get you anywhere. To be honest you seem to be the one crying about opinions. Your two replies could actually apply on yourself.
    Besides, this is a forum, what else is there to cry about (except the game itself) apart from opinions?
    No I'm not crying about what you said because it was not directed to me.

    PPS: "That was quite the waste of a post. Did you really think I was going to read past the first word of it? Why would I care what you think?" How would you know it was directed at you if you didn't read past the first word of it?
    Last edited by Mildford; Aug 24 2013 at 10:34 AM.
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  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mildford View Post
    Cirgellon remarked that he was against that, long time ago, and thinks Hunters should be standing stil
    wow, not seen that name in a while. I'm not sure he's still with us. I think either egg or jinjaar are the main people working on the hunter atm. could be wrong ofc

    also very different. very early on they wanted many classes to feel hybrid. it was not designed to have "pure" classes. remember that the real buffet system at the beginning of the game made classes very focused into certain rolls. hunter = ranged dps, guardian = tank. it was a lot more straight forward in parts. sure, you could get hunter CC but it wasn't burglar CC or lore-master CC, the classes were very different and rolls were defined.

    the set bonus system was just a slight leap into more pure classes if you wanted to go into it. but at first, many 5set bonus builds weren't as good as being a mixed blood. after many updates though it seems they've made going 5 into a set more and more appealing where most classes already might as well be in a tree system. my warden probably will have no change tbh, I'm ALWAYS 5 into a set bonus.

    I think 1 line being focused on moving, 1 line focused on standing still is a great idea. as long as the standing still one has a good enough bonus. maybe a stacking buff what you get for not moving, or more punishing focus loss on movement but skills cost less focus. I dunno, but I can't wait to see. I don't think cirgellon would be too annoyed as the basic model of the classes has changed from more hybrid single classes, to more pure 3 sub classes in each class.
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  7. #32
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    I really just hope the stationary traits are the highest DPS option because I personally don't mind just standing there shooting in most instances and raids. In the battle raid for instance, it's not really a big deal to step out of the way of a catapult and then go back to just standing in range of your healer while plunking the trolls. Flight on the other hand, and Fires could make use of a mobile hunter somewhat. But we're not champs, it isn't like we need to chase stuff down and get close to it to hit it. In a vast majority of the instances, we hunters find a place to stand where our healer can reach us, and the tank can leach from us then we have no reason to move as long as everyone's doing their job.

    For the hunter who likes solo content or goes into the moors, being able to fire on the move would be quite helpful I think.

    If the DPS is higher, I can't think of any reason to not go stationary in a majority of situations.
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  8. #33
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    I've read this a few times now, so will someone please explain the reasoning to me that says just because we now have trait trees instead of our own unique trait/bard system, it means that we'll suddenly not have cookie cutter builds?

    Inductions on the move sound good, especially at a reduced range. Sad to see traps become skills if only for the reason that means traps still exist, which means so will Trapper of Foes.

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by ColorSpecs View Post
    I've read this a few times now, so will someone please explain the reasoning to me that says just because we now have trait trees instead of our own unique trait/bard system, it means that we'll suddenly not have cookie cutter builds?
    they will be gating huge elements into lines. so it's no less of an argument of numbers (blue line does more dps than red for example) and more to "this like is good in this situation, but this line is good here".

    and this comes because they've basically said they will be gating skills to lines and removeing much of the hybridness around classes. for example, the all out dps hunter won't have the same survival as a hunter who mixes slightly. and currently on live, people call hunters "glass canons" but there not at all. we still have good survival skills.

    because triats can be changed on the fly, I assume they will go extreme into gating skills as much as. so each fight (boss/trash/PvMP) we'll be retraiting depending on what is asked of us.

    scroll up if you want more examples on this.

    Inductions on the move sound good, especially at a reduced range. Sad to see traps become skills if only for the reason that means traps still exist, which means so will Trapper of Foes.
    like they've stated, some lines will be revamped more than others. they even mentioned hunter yellow...

    I expect hunter yellow will be more of a ranged like burglar now. best survival of the 3 lines, debuffing, great CC and the best utility than just dps than the other 2 lines.

    I wouldn't be surprised if some of those lines that seriously need love will feel like completely new classes. while maybe very situational. how funny would it be for yellow hunter to be able to solo 2 wargs after being pounced. while they might be walking infarmy if they were blue or red line, it might make wargs think twice before jumping them... yet when the yellow hunter pops into group moments, he's part of the weak link, not really doing enough dps and debuffs being shrugged off with audacity and good heals easily overtaking his dps.

    same with PvE. there are many times you just don't need to be in a dps race. at those times, it might be better for the hunter to roll a debuffing style. or even, if there are 2 hunter already in the group, the group might be better as whole if he debuffs to make the sum of the group better than it's parts.

    with skill gateing and such, it does make the devs job of balancing the lines and classes much easier than before.
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  10. #35
    So far I have mixed thoughts about the hunter revamp. I am reserving my opinion for after I get to test it out and play around with it.

    That being said. What I would really like to see is a viable self heal. Every other class has a few. I mean seriously... a hunter... a man/woman that is an expert of the wilderness.. tracking.. hunting.. living off the land... don't you think that a hunter would know quite a few tricks of the healing trade? Pultices, poison (not just curing it but actually using poisons), sutures, splints etc...

    I am in the army for over 20 years. This is basic stuff we are taught in the first 2 months. The 1 skill they give us (and it is a legendary trait? Really?) Press Onward. It is 2-3K morale and some power but the cool down is 5 minutes.... 5 Minutes for the only healing skill for hunters.. Unless you are a human then u also get Strength of Morale... same thing 2-3k with 1 HOUR cool down. So I either have to use a precious legendary slot for a the one heal skill that has a huge cool down or be gated into being a human and having a second heal with an hour cool down.

    I wouldn't mind if PO was say... 1500-2k morale with a 60 or even 90 second cool down. Make it actually legendary. this is probally the 1 issue I hope they addressed with the revamp.

  11. #36

    Self-heals

    Hunter self-heals? I feel more survivable than I have for ages - certainly way more so than in Rise of Isengard. The only thing that kills Aedfrith now is a dev-crit 1-shot over his 8.5k base morale or being stunned in a damage hotspot. I have +16% inc healing from being a Man and having 2xTrue Settings of the North. I also have 800 Vit so decent ICMR (without nerfing my agi - still 2946 unbuffed).

    Regular healing:
    Agile Rejoinder maxed = basic tick of 250 morale every 4 secs, crits for 530.
    Sunbrand ring = 350 heals every 3 secs for 5 ticks.

    OH POO buttons:
    Press Onward = heals up to 3.5k.
    Cry of the Hunter = use as offensive skill mainly, the bubble is just a bonus.

    I soloed Fil Gashan kitchen recently and only needed to Press Onward once. On horseback I'm basically unkillable (subject to the caveat above about 1-shot).
    105s: Aedfrith (HN), Aldnoth (CP), Brai (RK), Hrolfdan (MN), Aeldfryd (WD), Morriarty (CH), Aednoth (LM), Mishhar (BR), Hraldan (GR), Rummbold (BG). Tinies - Rumbelina (MN), Aenghus (CP)
    Rangers of Eriador (officer), ex-Snowbourn now Laurelin - A Noob for All Seasons

  12. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Aedfrith View Post
    Hunter self-heals? I feel more survivable than I have for ages - certainly way more so than in Rise of Isengard. The only thing that kills Aedfrith now is a dev-crit 1-shot over his 8.5k base morale or being stunned in a damage hotspot. I have +16% inc healing from being a Man and having 2xTrue Settings of the North. I also have 800 Vit so decent ICMR (without nerfing my agi - still 2946 unbuffed).

    Regular healing:
    Agile Rejoinder maxed = basic tick of 250 morale every 4 secs, crits for 530.
    Sunbrand ring = 350 heals every 3 secs for 5 ticks.

    OH POO buttons:
    Press Onward = heals up to 3.5k.
    Cry of the Hunter = use as offensive skill mainly, the bubble is just a bonus.

    I soloed Fil Gashan kitchen recently and only needed to Press Onward once. On horseback I'm basically unkillable (subject to the caveat above about 1-shot).
    You are totally missing the point in my post. 250 morale from AR even if it crits is nothing. That is one shot from a mob. So you survive 1-2 more seconds. Your ring means nothing to the class. Am talking about class self heals here. Forget about gear. Strictly self heals. We are talking about the class revamp, not added gear. AR only happens if certain criteria are met. It's not reliable. COH is only viable for humanoids and it is not a self heal.

    Again 1 self heal that heals for a desent amount but the cooldown is way way too long. And like you said it is an "OH POO" heal. The bigger issue is this uses a legendary slot. The heal dosent feel legendary at all. If I don't slot this because my build requires 3 other legendary skills it is useless. I have Bards Arrow, Bow of Righteous and Rain of Thorns equipped. If I switch out either one I must lose... a fear shot or... power return or... one of only 2 aoe attacks and this one roots. Not a worthy trade off of a 5 minute heal cooldown. that cooldown means I can only use it once per encounter the others are used several times.

    Anyways again just my 2 coppers worth, your coin may differ.
    Last edited by celticwitch; Sep 06 2013 at 06:53 AM.

  13. #38
    I'll be the judge of whether I miss a point or not. If you read my signature, you'll see I have an 85 in every class except RK so am quite familiar with class mechanics. Let's take some DPS classes alleged to have decent self-healing as an example - Minnie and Champ.

    You're asking for a reliable self-heal - inductionless? short cooldown? Sort of like minnie Chord of Salvation? If so, then be prepared to lose a LOT of DPS. It's part of the essential trade-off without which we'd be back at identikit uber-characters that can do everything. I'm sure there are plans afoot to give some self-healing (perhaps along the lines of mounted combat blue line, in other words a percentage chance to proc a heal).

    So, a warspeech mini? Chord of Salvation, bubble - yup, lovely. But DPS nowhere close to a hunter's and range shorter.

    RK? Heal OR DPS but not both. Easy to deal with THAT one.

    What about Bracing Attack and all the other lovely champ heals? Well, to be honest, I have no problem with Bracing; the initial heal can be over a K but the ticks are more like AR. But the bubbles are a bit OP, particularly if you run Ardour or Glory rather than Fervour. I don't think in this respect hunters are underpowered so much as champs are overpowered.

    High-level LMs have Water-Lore but it has a 2sec induction, and from a slightly lower level Wisdom of the Council but it's on a long cooldown, and they're an induction-based class that are far squishier than hunters. Their burst DPS can be huge, but they soon run out of puff if 3 big skills come off CD - compare that to our rain of arrows/pen-shot/blood arrow spam. (I'll leave GEB insta-heartseeker out of it for now ).

    Wardens are often cited as great self-healers. Certainly if you run a high-Agi build in Determination (or start with Assailment and close in Det) you can do decent DPS and get epic HoTs - but if you tip the balance too far in favour of DPS you become pretty darn squishy.

    Burgs can get decent heals out of Glee and do good DPS - IF the crit chain is open and IF they are standing in the right place and IF they're not disarmed.

    To conclude, then, from the evidence of the post above, I think you missed my point, so I will reiterate it now. There are plenty of ways to stay alive on hunter s it currently stands, and hunters are quite survivable enough from mid-level if you're sensible about aggro and think before pulling, whether in solo or group. And asking for minnie-esque self-healing while keeping 40m range and insane DPS is frankly asking for too much.

    Besides which, particularly since the Update 11 power changes, Bow of the Righteous is simply the least useful or effective of all commonly slotted current hunter legendary traits - certainly far less so than Press Onward. (I'll leave Explosive Arrow out of it, as it's a nice legendary trait that currently requires you to nerf yourself in all other respects in order to be able to slot it.)

    Just my £0.02, from someone with a deal of experience in a number of classes.
    105s: Aedfrith (HN), Aldnoth (CP), Brai (RK), Hrolfdan (MN), Aeldfryd (WD), Morriarty (CH), Aednoth (LM), Mishhar (BR), Hraldan (GR), Rummbold (BG). Tinies - Rumbelina (MN), Aenghus (CP)
    Rangers of Eriador (officer), ex-Snowbourn now Laurelin - A Noob for All Seasons

  14. #39
    An RK can't do group heals while doing DPS, but they don't have any problem healing themselves. It won't save them from being 1-shot by a boss, but personally, I find my RK far more survivable then my Hunter if I'm in a situation where the mobs can get to me.

    You have a level 85 Burg running quiet knife and you have trouble getting your crit chain going? That's quite surprising. I only have Hytbold/crafted gear, and I never have a problem with my crit chain being up, and my DPS easily matches my Hunter's. Unlike a Hunter, I also debuff the mob so that they hit for less which coupled with the heal makes my Burglar much more survivable then my Hunter against multiple mobs, or signature/elites.

    I agree that a Warden traited and geared for DPS and in a DPS stance is squishier then normal, but if they do get in trouble, survivability is a stance click away. Then again, like a Warspeech Minstrel, DPS is still going to be lower then a Hunter's, so comparing the two seems a bit pointless.

    Champs are a bit similar to Wardens in that if things are looking dicey, they can switch to a different stance -- giving up DPS for survivability. Lowering the effect of the bubble could be a disaster for Champion Tanks -- though maybe you are suggesting Champions shouldn't be allowed to be tanks since you think the bubble makes them OP? To get DPS comparable to a Hunter, a Champs needs to be in Fervor and melee range with no possibility of parry or evade. I personally don't find my Champ any more survivable then my Hunter provided I don't lower my DPS and switch to a more survivable stance.

  15. #40
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    Hunter survivability is good is you spec for that. Dont get me wrong, I have no survival problems but Self heals are nowhere near other classes and to compare it is quite pointless. LM can spec for heals, same with rk,mini and champ can glory. Burgs can go gambler. What do hunters get? Agile rejoinder? You gonna retrait?to what? 'mobility'?

    Hunters cant hide behind heavy armor,bubbles, reliable HOTs, no TNG, knives out like skills(eldars grace 1h cd?lol)Can we simply heal ourselves like dps minis,rks can? Can we stack agile like LMs stack WL?

    Give all classes PO and AR heals only then compare em.
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  16. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by celticwitch View Post
    So far I have mixed thoughts about the hunter revamp. I am reserving my opinion for after I get to test it out and play around with it.

    That being said. What I would really like to see is a viable self heal. Every other class has a few. I mean seriously... a hunter... a man/woman that is an expert of the wilderness.. tracking.. hunting.. living off the land... don't you think that a hunter would know quite a few tricks of the healing trade? Pultices, poison (not just curing it but actually using poisons), sutures, splints etc...

    I am in the army for over 20 years. This is basic stuff we are taught in the first 2 months. The 1 skill they give us (and it is a legendary trait? Really?) Press Onward. It is 2-3K morale and some power but the cool down is 5 minutes.... 5 Minutes for the only healing skill for hunters.. Unless you are a human then u also get Strength of Morale... same thing 2-3k with 1 HOUR cool down. So I either have to use a precious legendary slot for a the one heal skill that has a huge cool down or be gated into being a human and having a second heal with an hour cool down.

    I wouldn't mind if PO was say... 1500-2k morale with a 60 or even 90 second cool down. Make it actually legendary. this is probally the 1 issue I hope they addressed with the revamp.
    I'm in the army for over 20 years, also. I'm astonished that they teach you to set splints and sew wounds while you're shooting at somebody, which is what you're asking for.

    As a hunter in the game, I've always learned to pick my fights carefully. Seems to me that is the essence of hunting. I find targets that I know I can either defeat, or if it is a "boss" type, I will be sure I have Strength of Morale at the ready, a decent Athelas potion of sufficient strength to assist me midway through the fight, and I plan my attack with traps, ranged shots, etc.

    Again - isn't "hunting" about careful deliberation - stalking prey, etc.
    His sword was long, his lance was keen, his shining helm afar was seen.

  17. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by lioheart View Post
    Well judging by what you said, since you couldn't handles his opinions then shouldn't you leave the forums?
    FYI You are also crying about his opinion, thus making you yourself a clown.
    P.S.: You also wasted a post as well.

    Focus does not define the hunter class at all, it is their burst DPS that does.
    Focus is just a mechanic that helps achieve the class to earn what defines it.
    Same will go for Champ and Fervour, LMs and CC, Minis/RKs and heals, Captains and Kill response, Guards/Wards and aggro

    As said before, why are you judging bout something that you have no info on before making the first move?
    Read the posts. My post was sarcasm. It was pretty much exactly what he said to me, but changed to forum posts. It was supposed to sound like that to show how silly his posts are. Sorry that this wasn't clear to you. I wasn't really telling him to leave lol...

    Focus does define the hunter right now. You may not think it needs to in the future but that doesn't change this fact. The hunter class is currently built around the focus system.

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Widoch View Post
    I really just hope the stationary traits are the highest DPS option because I personally don't mind just standing there shooting in most instances and raids. In the battle raid for instance, it's not really a big deal to step out of the way of a catapult and then go back to just standing in range of your healer while plunking the trolls. Flight on the other hand, and Fires could make use of a mobile hunter somewhat. But we're not champs, it isn't like we need to chase stuff down and get close to it to hit it. In a vast majority of the instances, we hunters find a place to stand where our healer can reach us, and the tank can leach from us then we have no reason to move as long as everyone's doing their job.

    For the hunter who likes solo content or goes into the moors, being able to fire on the move would be quite helpful I think.

    If the DPS is higher, I can't think of any reason to not go stationary in a majority of situations.
    Yeah, I don't see how getting inductions on the move will really improve the hunter that much. I don't PvP, so I'm not sure if this is a sought-after mechanic for PvP Hunters, but at least in PvE, I have never had to kite any sort of mob/boss in my entire journey from level 1 to 85. In solo and in groups/instances, I have always stayed mostly stationary.

    If there's a traitline/skill/passive that gives some sort of a damage bonus/increased attack duration/etc. for being stationary, I will without a doubt go that route as opposed to traiting for moveable inductions.

  19. #44
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    1,876
    Gee. I sure hope there aren't beta testers in this thread breaking their NDA via 'speculation'.

    Because that would be wrong.

  20. #45
    Believe it when I see it, I will. Mmm yes.

    My other Warhorse is a Fleet Tactical Escort Retrofit,[I] Defiant-Class[/I], [I]U.S.S. Say My Name[/I], NCC-93144

 

 
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