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  1. #1
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    Those who understand Elvish, please help.

    I'm trying to come up with a last name for my Silvan Lore-master from Mirkwood. I would like it to mean something along the lines of "evening doe" or "deer under the stars/moon".

    I've tried looking up various Sindarin dictionaries online, but I don't know how to combine words/phrases. I guess "aras" is supposed to mean deer. I have her last name as "Vanaras" currently, but I honestly don't know where I got the "van" from.

    Any help please?
    [CENTER][SIZE=1]MINSTREL and member of the vocal minority[/SIZE][/CENTER]

  2. #2
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    I'm sure there is somebody about who knows more about Tolkien's elvish than I, like how to bend the gender of words to make doe from deer but I find no elvish word for doe or hind. I believe Arasaduial would be twilight(evening) deer, or Arasenaduial would be deer of twilight(evening) and Arasnuinithil would be deer under the moon. At least I believe those to be acurate in my limited understand of sindarin.

  3. #3
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    Thank you VERY much!
    [CENTER][SIZE=1]MINSTREL and member of the vocal minority[/SIZE][/CENTER]

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frieja View Post
    I'm trying to come up with a last name for my Silvan Lore-master from Mirkwood. I would like it to mean something along the lines of "evening doe" or "deer under the stars/moon".

    I've tried looking up various Sindarin dictionaries online, but I don't know how to combine words/phrases. I guess "aras" is supposed to mean deer. I have her last name as "Vanaras" currently, but I honestly don't know where I got the "van" from.

    Any help please?
    I know a website where you can generate sindarin elf names for free as much as you want - the site is elf.namegeneratorfun.com Its a wonderful site and you can generate the name however you want. You can get random names, you can generate one from your own, or you can base them around a theme.

  5. #5
    "Aras" is indeed deer.

    "Ithil" is moon, or shine silver.

    So, Arasithil would be "moon deer". I'm not sure how to feminize deer to doe. there are feminine endings for names like -iel, -eth, and others for human personal names, I don't know that that works for just feminizing other nouns.

    the other poster was correct about using twilight.

    Aras o Ithil would be "deer of (the) moon, but for a second name you'd want to hyphenate it into one word which you may not wish to do. Actually, there are several words for and ways to use "of", I'd have to double check for this if you should use "o", "en", or "na"
    Last edited by Galadh; Aug 19 2013 at 01:47 PM.

  6. #6

    I wanted to help, earlier, but didn't have the time in the real world ...

    to take a "real" look at the proposition. I had read the OP, and replies, and "something bugged me", but I couldn't devote the time to explore the issue. If now is too late, then I am sorry, if only because I truly had wanted to help ...

    To the issue,

    I'm not happy with the constructs provided above: if they are not, indeed, incorrect, they nevertheless do not demonstrate "preferred" Sindarin usage.

    From the narratives we see that genitive/ablative/whatever phrases are (almost) never used to form (personal) names; when nouns are compounded into a name-construction, the modifier (almost) always precedes the object. This first case invalidates Arasaduial/Arasenaduial/Arasnuinithil/Aras o ithil; in the second case, 'Arasithil' simply is not 'moon-deer' but, rather, 'deer-moon'; connotation of this construction is therefore doubly problematic (the/a 'month of a/the deer' would be rendered 'Arathron', swapping-out the element 'ithil').

    So we're left with this base construction: Ithilaras = 'moon + deer', in the sense of '(a/the) deer of (the) moon'; genderless; suitable to be the species-name of, say, a breed of albino deer, or to be used as a personal epithet, or even as a male's given name; even as a male's given name, however, its "generic sterility" is perhaps not desired.

    I'll mention, but not recommend, Ithilaraseth, which does literally feminize this construction, but the suffix is agentive (as if 'moon-deering' were an activity): this must be grammatically rejected because 'aras' is a noun, rather than a verb.

    Let's look at ...

    Ithilarathiel or Ithilarathwen: 'moon + deer + (young) woman', in the sense of either 'maiden who is (like) a moon-deer', or 'daughter of the moon-deer' (both names would have both connotations); Ithilarathiel might rather be rendered Ithilarassel, but I do not think so (but I can't remember what "rule" is telling me this; '-iel' and '-sel' are "exactly the same suffix", from exactly the same root).

    At this point, I'll make the personal remark that I find the entire Ithilaras line of construction to be a little problematic: what the heck is (a/the) moon-deer in the specified context of THE Moon? Ithil does not mean, 'moon', or 'a moon' but 'The (one-and-only) Moon'. All of these names (except Ithilaraseth) would be acceptible as epithets, but maybe not for given names; phonetically, I find them cumbersome and inelegant.

    Can we make something a little more ear-pleasing? Hmmmmm ... how about:

    Silarathiel or Silarathwen: '(the) white-shine (of the moon) + deer + (young) woman', in the sense of '(the) girl who inspires one to think of (a) deer shining in (the) moonlight'; the connotation of 'sil' = 'white-shine' with moonlight, especially, is attested-to in LotR by 'Narsil', the name of Elendil's sword.

    However it is that one deals with the 'moon' element, also consider using the suffix 'hiril' = '(noble) Lady': Ithilarathiril or Silarathiril.

    In my phonetically-aesthetic opinion:

    "Womanly", choose Ithilarathwen or Silarathiril;

    "Girly", choose Silarathiel;

    "Pompous", choose Ithilarathiril;

    To me, Silarathiel and Silarathiril are the most "ear-pleasing", and Silarathiril possesses an almost-rhyming-almost-alliteration that, to me, lends an additional air of "poetic majesty"; but it's a little pompous, nevertheless.

    Better late than never, I hope ...

    HoG

  7. #7
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    Isn't Vanaras the head customer services person in World of warcraft?

    I swear i know that name!

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harper_of_Gondolin View Post
    to take a "real" look at the proposition. I had read the OP, and replies, and "something bugged me", but I couldn't devote the time to explore the issue. If now is too late, then I am sorry, if only because I truly had wanted to help ... <snip>

    Can we make something a little more ear-pleasing? Hmmmmm ... how about:

    Silarathiel or Silarathwen: '(the) white-shine (of the moon) + deer + (young) woman', in the sense of '(the) girl who inspires one to think of (a) deer shining in (the) moonlight'; the connotation of 'sil' = 'white-shine' with moonlight, especially, is attested-to in LotR by 'Narsil', the name of Elendil's sword. <snip>
    THANK YOU!!!

    Thank you to everyone for their comments, but thank you so much, Harper for explaining all the different parts, meanings, grammar, etc. I really like the idea of "deer shining under the moonlight" That's the image I had in my head when trying to come up with the name. I was having a lot of problems making it sound pleasing to the ear though.

    I think I will go with Silarathiel. I'm trying to stay away from pompous or courtly (hiril) because I consider her a wood-elf that leans more to the side of tribal than civilized (possibly the far reaches of Thranduil's realm).

    How would one pronounce that? Would it be SIL-ar-ATH-iel?
    [CENTER][SIZE=1]MINSTREL and member of the vocal minority[/SIZE][/CENTER]

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frieja View Post
    How would one pronounce that? Would it be SIL-ar-ATH-iel?
    Silar-ath-eel

  10. #10
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    The knowledge of the forum members in the Tolkien section never ceases to amaze me.
    Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, totally worn out & proclaiming "WOW, what a ride!"
    [I][FONT=comic sans ms][COLOR=#ffff00]Continuing the never ending battle to keep Lobelia Sackville-Baggins in check[/COLOR][/FONT][/I]

  11. #11
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    I think we are really impressed by the extensive knowledge and even the suppositions of knowledge of Tolkien's elvish expounded here by HoG. I learned some things I did not know. I adore LotR and The Silmarillion, not least for the good Professor's amazing languages, but as far as names for this very enjoyable game, if it sounds elvish, I don't get too hung up on proper grammar (though I do make it a point not to mix Quenya with Sindarin).
    Thanks for the lesson HoG.

  12. #12

    To the extent that I have earned any thanks ...

    ... I find myself a little overwhelmed by some of the "praise", and I feel compelled to strongly-assert the following: none of the work is mine.

    There exists a substantial wealth of academic/para-academic study on the fiction of J.R.R. Tolkien, and there has been much activity inspired by the various manifestations of his "Elvish Language": the linguistics branch of those esoteric studies formerly known collectively as philology has, since the time of Tolkien's creations, been formally refined into the discipline known as Comparative Linguistics; a number of academically-trained and -certified Comparative Linguists have descended upon Tolkien's Elvish with what I would style as, "reverent rapacity".

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Salo is likely the best-known of these, for his work connected with the most-recent movies.

    I would rather defer to the work of http://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Helge_Fauskanger (who, himself, often cites Salo, if only for being a pioneer).

    There is, of course, the ongoing Hiswelokë project http://www.jrrvf.com/hisweloke/sinda.../sindarin.html.

    An extensive resource library has come into existence, from the work of many contributors.

    Haha! What do I use?

    The Parviphith Edhellen (Sindarin), cross-refenced with the Quettaparma Quenyallo (Quenya); I will flee to the Hiswelokë resources when I need to identify the primary source.

    HoG

  13. #13
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    Paging Berephon...

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by shipwreck View Post
    Paging Berephon...


    Is he still with Turbine? I haven't heard from him in forever.
    Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, totally worn out & proclaiming "WOW, what a ride!"
    [I][FONT=comic sans ms][COLOR=#ffff00]Continuing the never ending battle to keep Lobelia Sackville-Baggins in check[/COLOR][/FONT][/I]

  15. #15
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    ?
    Quote Originally Posted by Aideani View Post
    Silar-ath-eel
    I beg to respectfully disagree; there are two separate vowels in ie both of which to be pronounced, as opposed to a lengthened i in your suggestion. It should be si-la-RA-thi-el (stress on RA).

    Sorry for the nitpicking
    ?

 

 

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