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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
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    An Open Letter to Those Who Moors on Dwarrow:

    I know there have been a lot of threads about what’s wrong with the moors and things we can do to fix it.

    Let me just say that all of those ideas are wrong. What’s wrong with the moors is not that we have fixed rez spots or freeps have horses and creeps have maps. It’s not that Out Posts and Keeps have some sort of function, be it damage buffs or inf/ren gain, or that npcs seem to exist everywhere. No. The problem lies in us, both freeps and creeps.

    Let me explain. The other day, I heard someone say something that exemplifies exactly why our moors is utterly terrible. In a raid, the leader told the group something along the lines of, “I know this isn’t the right thing to do, but it’s just how it is, so we have to deal with it and do it anyway.”

    This is exactly what is wrong with our moors, and it happens freepside and creepside. This is why an 18 man fraid will roll over a lone red rank creep questing as they pass by. This is why a creeps or freeps will jump in and zerg when they see a 1v1 occurring. It’s why when one side is getting rezzed camped, they will grab as many other players as they can to roll the other side, flip the map, and return the favor, even though they know just how much they disliked being camped in the first place.

    And yes, I understand that the moors is a pvp zone and people are free to play however they might choose. I’m just pointing out that people are choosing to go along with things that they think or know are disrespectful. People don't care about how they get their rank as long as they get it and will use whatever means necessary to rank. Changing other facets of the moors isn’t going to fix anything in the long run if we continue to value ranking over actual pvp.

    ~Lef/Arachnophilia

  2. #2
    Yes, there is nothing wrong with the games PvP mechanics. It's all the player's fault for their play style. Sounds like you should work for Turbine :P
    [IMG]http://i44.tinypic.com/6gir6u.png[/IMG]

  3. #3
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    Well you see....
    Its easier to blame other things than for people to admit to themselves

    I rez camp
    I zerg
    I gank
    I hug npcs
    I make sure I have more buffs than the other guy
    I dont wanna die.EVER.
    I want 2k ratings. See Above.
    I flip to the winning side.
    Just because you can doesnt mean you should. Theres alot who jump at the opportunity whenever possible knowing its gonna tick people off. Then get mad when the other side does it. I mean dont get me wrong Ive done my share of rez camping and zerging in the past (as all of us have) .

    Enjoy your ranks if they make you feel better about yourself. You know who you are. Rank is just the x hours you' spent in the moors (for some, the x hours youve failed in the moors as it seems)not how good you are, but keep telling yourself otherwise. Might make pvp better.

    Not trying to bash everyone as there are alot of you who have gained ranks over time and deserve individual ranks and more, both freeps and creeps /respect.

    Hate on sno all you want, hes got more deserved ranks than some people :P lolololol
    If you are offended by any of this in any way, send me mail ingame. I have Breeland maps for you.
    Fellowship Hadacar: I now have a mental image of a little pea with a NE Patriot's logo painted on it.
    From Dwarrowdelf to Arkenstone

  4. #4
    .






    This thread is quite pointless. Allow me to indulge your mind with my words of wisdom.






    Lef, you are blinded for believing all those ideas are wrong. Indeed, they are flawed, but it is only because PvMP is so terrible that there is hardly anything we can do to formulate any solutions that do not disturb anything that already does work within The Cycle of Creeps.






    Individuals committing any of the activities mentioned above (By Patriotpea) are well aware of their doings and regardless of how many QQ threads one could ever post, those individuals will continue to commit the actions they do, for such actions are tedious to avoid.
    No matter how hard we try to blame the players, at the end of the day we as players are only playing the game the way it is presented to us and with the mechanics that are given to us to play with.






    So no, not all the blame lies on the shoulders of us players. However, a player's morality does come into play, but keep in mind it is a choice, so do not expect everyone to follow any "special rules" we create. And even if we are ever successful with the creation of some sort of system that avoided any of the mentioned "activities" it would still be flawed. Numbers and thus balance my friends... something we cannot control.






    Indeed, we are ALL guilty of committing an action that probably shouldn't be glorified, but take me for example, I might be whatever you want me to be and unless I claim you worthy I probably could not care less of your opinion. However, lets keep something in mind, I do have a certain code of honor I play by and I keep myself on check not to cross the line and violate anything such code deems unworthy.

    Although, some might lack sense of intelligence, something we should all know is right from wrong.
    That being said, all we can do is make the best out of a poor situation keeping in mind whatever our individual beliefs are.

    We cannot do anything about a poor PvP system we cannot change and those who can, fail to listen.






    P.S.
    The Xellor, your point was well executed.

    And Patriotpea, I laugh at your Sno comment, all I can say is... Where is the mighty LM now?... Absent from the Moors, yes, where all the cheaters belong.






    "Hate the game, not the player" ~ Alvin
    Unless they are cheaters, thus in such case...
    "Do not hesitate, show no mercy" ~ Palpatine






    Less Than Three~ Thunderboltz
    Last edited by mgm1o1; Aug 15 2013 at 03:48 PM.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0d2160100000fb85e/signature.png]Thunderboltz[/charsig]

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eomon View Post
    Yes, there is nothing wrong with the games PvP mechanics. It's all the player's fault for their play style. Sounds like you should work for Turbine :P
    And a little time later you were zerging my level 80 champ with a craid on your back and yall corpse jumped me like I was supposed to be able to do anything


    oh my....
    VILYA: Capitao-1 r12 Captain | Dwalfin r6 Minstrel | Wuulff r8 Warg | Kruusher r11 Reaver | Creepitao r7 WL

  6. #6
    I was saying Hello
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  7. #7
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    Okay, here goes.

    I knew that this whole thread would probably be a bit pointless, and no one would really care what I have to say about things in the moors atm. I'm not anything special (or worthy, however you want to put it) freepside or creepside.

    Just an fyi Thunderboltz, I'm not advocating any "special rules" for people to follow. I'm advocating that maybe if people don't like rez camps, for example, they don't perpetuate them. I have talked to plenty of people who actually don't like them that much, but go along with it because that's all the action is. And maybe I'm completely wrong, but it seems from my view point that if people who disliked rez camps didn't rez camp, it might actually be a little more difficult for rez camps to get into swing in the first place. And no, I can't say that I've never rez camped in my life, but I'm confident in saying that I haven't in over a month because a) I think rez camps are boring and b) after being camped voraciously on my nub creep, I find the behavior to be complete opposite the kind of pvp that I'd like to participate in. So I don't.

    And this isn't a QQ thread about camping. I'd rather think of it as an observation that no matter what changes Turbine makes to pvp (and they just had their moors revamp, so I can't imagine there will be anything significant) that nothing much will probably change if we keep the "this is how it is, so I'm just going to go with it" attitude alive.

    You are absolutely right, Thunder, in that we can't do anything to change how the pvp system is implemented, but we can change how we want to play. And I'm not naive enough to think that everyone who reads this thread will suddenly grow a conscience and decide to stop doing whatever it is they find objectionable about moors behaviors, but maybe someone here and there will think about it and perhaps even decide to create their own set of standards for how they're willing to pvp.

    And let's be honest, there's no chance of anything changing if no one does anything to change it. So I posted this thread to try to open a discussion and get people to think about what they're doing and the impact it has. And it probably won't get anything done, but you know, I feel a lot better now having done it. At least I can tell myself I tried lol.

    ~Lef/Arachnophilia

  8. #8
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    You would probably have more luck petitioning for better grammar in the moors.... I admire your effort to help though. While I don't believe your message to be a waste of time, I do believe that many good acts in the moors go unnoticed and that there is probably more stuff going on out there of a positive nature than you may believe. A high-ranked creep or freep that DOES pass a greenie purposely, or perhaps give them a salute then moves on... is probably not going to be boasting about it on the forums.
    Threndinir - Retired Old Dwarf

  9. #9
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    Id just stop going to the moors if you are disturbed by these stupid things people do. Got other things to do ingame than develop a disease from being in the same map as some people and/or reading ooc.

    People will do what they want.

    PvP seems to be measured not by how many hours of balanced pvp (where one side doesnt have every advantage) but by the amount of renown/infamy in the past hour. Thats all that matters these days anyway. If they all log, just try again tomorrow right?
    Fellowship Hadacar: I now have a mental image of a little pea with a NE Patriot's logo painted on it.
    From Dwarrowdelf to Arkenstone

  10. #10
    .






    The Lef, I did not mean that your thread was pointless in my view, but rather knowing the nature of PvMP and drawing from past experiences, I assumed what was most logical. I always try to give "general" replies and point out obvious facts some might have overlooked, even if I don't always agree with them.






    I agree with you that people do have the choice to stop camping and even more so to stop being camped.
    One can choose to execute either of those options, but if an individual or two decide to act upon them, what else might they do? Sit around and hope someone with intelligence decides to stop being camped and also try to find a fight elsewhere? Again drawing from past experiences, it is most unlikely for these events to take place.
    In most cases, the nature of the generic PvP leave us no choice but to accept actions we deem unworthy.






    I do not Freep, ever, so I can only speak for creep side, but let me give you an example. When a Creep logs in, such Creep does not go about looking for stranded Freeps around the map, why? Because that search would be in vain. There is always one specific "main fight", and thus even if it is a camp, if that Creep wants to PvP, he or she is forced to go along with it.






    OOC: "Where are the Freeps?", "Where is the action at, plz and thank you?", "Where are you guys being farmed?", "Where them actions be at, yo?"...

    Creeps logging in have learned the generic routine and thus have come to expect certain coordinates for a "main fight".






    I applaud you for taking the risk and speaking your mind. I think it is great that people still have hope for this "PvP". We, the community, have always managed to look past Turbine's flaws and enjoyed the game for what it is, an MMO with excellent social value. At least that is what I take this game for. I lost hope in any serious PvP long ago. Too many flaws no amount of Threads could ever cover. But I do enjoy replying on them, I mostly do it for my own purposes... mostly to laugh after re-reading what I write... also to creep out Rayzr... :O






    Anyways, like stated by a previous post, we simply don't have to put up with the terrible PvP if we don't want to.
    Me for example, I log in for the PvP in OOC, and sometimes I Flayer Root, so the Reavers can have a meal.
    It is not that I might not enjoy farming certain individuals again and again, but rather that it becomes too boring for my taste, and thus I look for better PvP elsewhere.






    Less Than Three~ Thunderboltz
    Last edited by mgm1o1; Aug 16 2013 at 01:17 PM.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0d2160100000fb85e/signature.png]Thunderboltz[/charsig]

  11. #11
    It's a combination of both.


    I pretty much agree with what everyone else has said, especially Thren. Many times when a rez camp is occuring, there will be a few people who try to avoid it, but unfortunately, there isn't anyone else to fight except where the camp is occuring. (Such an example was one time where Tanar and I just stood around jumping and doing emotes at each other since didn't really want to be involved in the rez camp.... there wasn't really anyone else to fight though, so we ended up going back to it.)
    The Fungus-Infested-Tumor-Ridden-Royal-Spiderwarg has come online.
    First r12 Spiderwarg. - Veenom

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eomon View Post
    I was saying Hello

    It's basically him hugging you or giving you cookies. He only does it to show his affection. (He's too shy to use the /kiss emote.)
    [color=skyblue2]Stocky 95 RK[/color] - [color=violet]Lalwrence 85[/color] -[color=PaleGoldenRod] Dov 95 LM[/color] - [color=MediumVioletRed]Lallie 85 Mini[/color] - [color=springgreen]Meghan 85 Hunter[/color] - [color=tomato]Lalraen 85 Champ[/color]

  13. #13
    im not vip so i only creep in moors

    log in , get quests , turn in stuff, and look for freeps...

    this is prety much lotros version of war.

    you can get ganked questing if you're alone... most creeps will shout out if some freep is doing it and where. and if you get killed... Welcome to Moors!

    and as others have said its all up to individual player / or raid's behavior.

    you get your stuff done if you can then its all about the hunt.. who you can track down and kill.

    and about the camping .. hey its wherever both sides end up ... usually lugz rez, gv or grams...

    whole point of creep side is to get the freeps wherever they end up being and vice versa... theres really no chosing where it happens.

    niether side is going to en masse decide hmm no not doing grams camp or lugz rez camp..sure an individual can decide not to, but if they want to get any kills ... you have to be there

    and stocky my warg chewing on you or my defiler sending something at you is my way of sending a hug lol
    [URL=http://s1230.photobucket.com/user/Ellatoestabber/media/ad1ee657-2915-4651-8589-68323302216a_zps279e8c38.jpg.html][IMG]http://i1230.photobucket.com/albums/ee487/Ellatoestabber/ad1ee657-2915-4651-8589-68323302216a_zps279e8c38.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

    Creeps Dwarrowdelf: Drdeadman R9 /Ostanda R6

  14. #14
    Until they do instanced PvP rez camps, map ganking, npc hugging and thumb sucking will continue - no PvP game has ever achieved perfect balance with open world stuff.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Traur View Post
    no PvP game has ever achieved perfect balance with open world stuff.
    True. Also, Threndipoo, per usual, speaks wisdom. To an extent, I think you're right Lef: Players should be held accountable for their own actions.

    That does not mean, however, that the makers of the game shouldn't be held accountable when the mechanics and/or dev communication encourages those actions.

    There are camps of a sort in any game. When a t1 server in GW2 is randomly put with 2 t6 servers, rez camping happens as a matter of numbers: t1 servers are generally incredibly populous and active in WvW and they have the population coverage to defend the map 24/7. However, that situation rarely happens because in that game, generally, high pop servers are pitched against high pop servers. The 3 faction system also makes this unlikely, as rez camps are very quickly broken by the third team coming over and wiping the campers. This isn't a solution in LOTRO, because they can't exactly make a third alien faction without seriously effing up the lore. It is an example, however, of how PVP mechanics can maneuver the players natural instincts to a more dynamic fight.

    In RoI days, fights generally centered around TA because the placement of OC and EC: there was an ebb and flow as player count fluctuated and people used their NPCs to their advantage. Unfortunately, it meant everything else on the map didn't really matter. The Moors revamp was intended to get rid of this, make every outpost and keep matter, and create a more dynamic map. They succeeded on the first two points, but the mechanics themselves not only allow, but encourage the side with greater numbers (and not necessarily organization or talent) to completely dominate the map... Creeps or freeps. Moving the camps put bases closer to rezzes, encouraging rez camps. The OP mechanic allows the winning side to completely dominate the other by mechanics alone. Yes, players choose to take those camps. However, a player shouldn't have to think of the overall metagame simply to play in the Moors. The average player sees something red and kills it. They see some type of keep or outpost, they have a quest to take it, so they take it. In the current system, this works well when their are large numbers of both freeps and creeps on the map, but fails when one side has a large population imbalance. It's natural instinct: It's Turbine's fault, not theirs, for pushing that instinct in a manner that encourages rez camps. One of the goals of the dev diaries was as follows: "Reduce the statistical and strategic imbalances between the two sides." The outpost system as stands runs directly counter to that purpose. It gives the side with the most numbers a distinct statistical advantage that SHOULD NOT EXIST. Especially when one side's gear progression will give them an increasing statistical advantage over the course of an expansion. I don't think the outpost buffs are a bad idea overall, but they should be removed from outpost capture and instead be used similarly to the "Outnumbered" buff in GW2: When one side has a distinct population advantage, the other side would benefit from a statistical advantage to compete. They shouldn't have to go PVE to do so when the other side can spare the numbers to flip it back in a heartbeat.

    Because the system itself is screwed up, we create false handicaps for our playstyle, then get mad when people don't use them. Creep healing isn't as good as freep healing: Minis, rks, and cappies shouldn't be going heals. Or they shouldn't be grouped up. Or they shouldn't even come out on their OP characters. Champ bubbles are OP: they shouldn't use them in fights. One side outnumbers another: They should flip to the other side. And they shouldn't take OPs. Or they should just wander around the map looking for questers. But they shouldn't gank those questers if they're low ranked.

    I understand why we put these handicaps in place, but they're all based on a self-awareness that rarely exists in PVP systems. How many times have you read someone in OOC type "Craid ganked me at TR"? Then you go over their to find out that it was a single warg. In GW2, people call out "INC!!" in map chat, you ask numbers and they'll say "~40-50 they're close!" You go there and it's 10 people and they're half a league away from you. People aren't even reliable at counting how many enemies are standing in front of them, yet we expect them not only to reliably police themselves but to know why what they're doing is ethically right? If you got a fellow of three players together, I doubt you could even agree to which handicaps ARE ethically right. Frankly, players shouldn't be expected to do so: This is a game after all, and it's not fun to purposefully handicap yourself. I appreciate it when people do so, but I don't think it's right to expect it or get angry at them when they don't. That anger is misplaced and detrimental to the PVMP community as a whole - Though I admit and regret contributing to that anger. The last thing we need is an added reason for vitriol.

    </walloftext>
    Last edited by dagneyandleo; Aug 19 2013 at 05:47 PM.
    [b]Lythiea of Dwarrowdelf[/b], Member of [url=http://dd-asylum.info][b]Asylum[/b][/url] - R8 85 RK
    [b]Alts:[/b] Selenicereus, 85 guard, Castria, 85 cap, Fiordiligi, 82 LM, Minilyth, 75 mini, and Lythfiler, r6 filer.

  16. #16
    I kill freeps. It's all I know how to do. It's all I want to do. It's why I exist. It's in my blood. I enjoy every second of freep hunting. I enjoy every millisecond of freep killing. If you ask me a question, the answer will be "kill a freep." It doesn't matter what question you ask, you'll receive the same answer. Freeps must DIE!!!!!


    - the philosophical musings of a dumb reaver who thinks he's a bunny.
    Chieftain Rayzr of Dwarrowdelf (Reaver)
    Footman Sakeri of Dwarrowdelf (Captain)

  17. #17
    .






    1. Those who play with morals, like myself, will try to do our part when the opportunity is presented.

    2. Those who lack morals, will exploit their intended capabilities to their full advantage in order to achieve victory.

    3. Turbine has failed us update, after update, after update... after update. Thus we grew accustomed to have very low expectations for their content.
    When the content is delivered based on our low expectations, we are OK with it.


    These points are obviously not news, but I brought them up for a reason.






    Speaking for myself, I straight up blame Turbine for the lack of importance clearly expressed towards PvP.
    However, I am very glad that you mentioned GW2, Lyth.
    If we are to blame any player at all for the poor state of PvP and cut Turbine some slack, I believe that the third point I mentioned speaks for itself.






    Let me tell you, I find it very funny sometimes reading GW2's forums compared to LOTRO's.
    GW2 forums remind me of first world problems vs. third world problems here on LOTRO.
    I wonder to myself, if all those whiners over in GW ever played LOTRO's PvP they would seriously pull out all their hair from raging so hard and later acquire diarrhea in the process.






    My point is, sure GW2's PvP is not perfect, but in reality it is leagues ahead of LOTRO's.
    Like Lyth pointed out, at least ArenaNet tries to formulate successful solutions, rather than just showing they don't care and forcing players to create threads asking other players to please play "restricted", because otherwise the experience is ####.






    Anet listens to the community because they want to satisfy their customers. Granted at times in order to do so, they will go too far, but we remind them to scale back.
    The point is, even if the problems are "first worldly", the community over on GW2 are vocal otherwise and we demand our quality, because quality is what we have been pampered to expect, unlike here on LOTRO, where we players have adapted to play whatever #### Turbines feels like throwing at us sugar coated in Tolkien's lore.





    I foresaw what a flop the lazy job of the PvMP revamp would be, with the exact flaws mentioned by Lyth. Excluding Orc Camp of course, I can't thank OC's designer enough for giving me hanged Freeps. Regardless, such grand "revamp" is exactly what I mean about PvMP's quality.







    The Community is a vital factor to any MMO.
    Not only do we keep the game running literally, but also financially. We are Turbine's customers after all, let us not forget.






    Less Than Three~ Thunderboltz
    Last edited by mgm1o1; Aug 20 2013 at 02:13 AM.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0d2160100000fb85e/signature.png]Thunderboltz[/charsig]

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zoar View Post
    I kill freeps. It's all I know how to do. It's all I want to do. It's why I exist. It's in my blood. I enjoy every second of freep hunting. I enjoy every millisecond of freep killing. If you ask me a question, the answer will be "kill a freep." It doesn't matter what question you ask, you'll receive the same answer. Freeps must DIE!!!!!


    - the philosophical musings of a dumb reaver who thinks he's a bunny.
    Ray come back and kill froobs with us!
    [center][color=orange][b]High Chieftain Kamikazee Rank 13 Reaver [/b][/color][/center]
    [center][color=teal][b]Restinpepperonis Rank 9 Weaver [/b][/color][/center]
    [center][color=darkviolet][b]Third Marshal Karoc Rank 12 Champion [/b][/color][/center]

  19. #19
    Alright.

    Let me get down to it then.

    Every creep on this server bar a set few fail so hard it's actually hard to comprehend.

    Common sense is the driver for success in my opinion and is something so many people on this server freep and creep side lack.

    Another thing is grouping, anyone ever noticed when a 4 reaver 2 WL group comes out they tear %#^$ up...?

    And hey, rez camps, creeps have maps last time I checked. Use them.

    Also if nothing changes nothing changes(stupid quote but true). If its a rez camp and you don't run in and try to kill something as an organized group it WILL ALWAYS BE A #%^#ING REZ CAMP YOU FAILS.

    Half the reason the creeps on this server are so bad because as soon as they see the chance that they will die, they hug the rez so hard it is actually sad to watch.

    In my opinion it is the creeps on this server that fail and are ruining PVP.

    Fail freeps are not as op as people think and if more creeps spent time learning the dynamics of their own class and the classes around them. Then holy $#^@, dwarrowdelf PVP might actually go somewhere.

    And you can say it all you like that I am wrong. But how many creeps can you say PVP daily and know there classes well.

    What creeps can you say are up and coming pvp god moders?

    Looks like a bunch of fails to me where easy going infamy is the goal.

    And I have a r10 reaver that I constantly solo with and am very successful with (w/o a whole lot of p2w).

    This main reason is instead of trying to run away from a fail zerg and dying, I do my best to get a KB before I die, and the amount of times I have done this forces me to learn better strategies to overcome specific classes in certain situations using skills with initiative and out smarting your fellow fail cd hugging froobling.



    Any way. All in all. In my opinion freeps will always have an upperhand... solo. Grouped a creep group has the dynamics to pwn any number of freeps ezmode. Creeps on this server are ruining pvp. And Lef, no one cares about pulling extra players into the moors, I am sure at any stage it is almost impossible to get an 'even' sided affair. To think like that is fail. All you have to do is the best with what you have. It's a computer game, if it bugs you, go outside. lololol
    Officially, Exclusively, Playstyles, Connvicted, Kickkback, Yoloswagkingg.

  20. #20
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    I will have more to add to this later, but I will add one quick thought to this thread. The purpose of pvmp on the server is split among its players, I had a post in more detail on this on a previous thread. However, in short, there is a saying that I think sums up PvMP quite well.

    "Those who come bearing bearing the gift of quality pvp interaction, please get behind those who come for infamy/renown."

    More on that later.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0d2160100000fbcfe/signature.png]Revanlonglegs[/charsig]
    "Videogames take no skill, if they did, no one would play" - a player on creepside DD

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by hahawhat View Post
    Any way. All in all. In my opinion freeps will always have an upperhand... solo. Grouped a creep group has the dynamics to pwn any number of freeps ezmode.
    What you fail to recognize (or at least mention), is that it all depends on the situation. It is just not possible to say any old creep group will be able to pwn any number of freeps.

    As an example, if the freep group has 3 minis healing without SI, if there are a few spiders working in tandem with some dps classes, they'll be able to take them down.

    Change that to 3 minis healing with a lm or two around giving them SI, it's going to be near impossible as the Spider's CC is severely reduced. (Of course there are many more variables such as #'s, WL buffs, skill of players on both sides, etc., but this is just to make a point.)

    The problem is, Turbine has a history of making some classes OP which in turn makes some people want to only play those classes, and not as many playing the others, leading to the opposing group usually having a big disadvantage. This doesn't mean it's not possible to counter them, but less probable (especially since there is no way to dictate who's on).
    The Fungus-Infested-Tumor-Ridden-Royal-Spiderwarg has come online.
    First r12 Spiderwarg. - Veenom

  22. #22
    A Psych lesson from wikipedia:
    The self-serving bias is the tendency to attribute dispositional causes for successes, and situational causes for failure, particularly when self-esteem is threatened. This leads to assuming one's successes are from innate traits, and one's failures are due to situations, including other people.

    Quote Originally Posted by hahawhat View Post
    And I have a r10 reaver that I constantly solo with and am very successful with (w/o a whole lot of p2w).

    This main reason is instead of trying to run away from a fail zerg and dying, I do my best to get a KB before I die, and the amount of times I have done this forces me to learn better strategies to overcome specific classes in certain situations using skills with initiative and out smarting your fellow fail cd hugging froobling.
    Then, there are stereotypes. People tend to generalize a few bad apples to the whole population. In this case below, ALL (as in 100%) of creeps on this server are fail...No comment.

    P.s. Im just using you as an example. Dont take it as a personal attack. Also, I love suiciding to get a kb on my reaver too!

    Quote Originally Posted by hahawhat View Post
    Every creep on this server bar a set few fail so hard it's actually hard to comprehend.

    Half the reason the creeps on this server are so bad because as soon as they see the chance that they will die, they hug the rez so hard it is actually sad to watch.

    In my opinion it is the creeps on this server that fail and are ruining PVP.

    Fail freeps are not as op as people think and if more creeps spent time learning the dynamics of their own class and the classes around them. Then holy $#^@, dwarrowdelf PVP might actually go somewhere.

    And you can say it all you like that I am wrong. But how many creeps can you say PVP daily and know there classes well.

    What creeps can you say are up and coming pvp god moders?

    Looks like a bunch of fails to me where easy going infamy is the goal.
    People attribute things to individuals (fundamental attribution error) and groups (ultimate attribution error) in extremely biased ways. If my character or side loses, its because the other side should have won under those set of circumstances (they are bad and needed to zerg us with 5x number or they won because the OP freep healing). If my character or side wins, its because we outplayed the other side (It wasn't the overpowered Stun immunity or Wl bubble/aoe Rez that have no counterplay or number differentials). This is the thinking that goes on and it is far from true.

    Peoples biased attributions lead to overgeneralizing populations (in this case freeps/creeps). I can assure you that freeps/creeps arn't that different in terms of player skill and various other aspects. Both sides rez camp, both hug npcs, and both blow cds/pots and use other unfair advantages to compensate for being outplayed/outgunned.


    With regards to the rez camp:

    Players are rewarded heavily for this behavior on both sides (operant conditioning). The renown/infamy can be one sided or beneficial to both sides. There is no penalty for death in this game. The only penalty is downtime it takes to run back to the battle. When you are being rez camped, this downtime isnt significant. This can lead to people charging out and trading kills (I am guilty of this on all my toons). Bottom line: Good points and Bad pvp.

    Most rez circles have a 360 degree escape. To end a rez camp, your best bet is to group up, move out (maps and horses), and go take an OP or objective to make it clear that there is pvp available outside of that rez. Your allies may stay at the rez but once they realize they lost numbers, (and thus more outgunned than even before) they will leave.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0d2160100000f8df2/signature.png]Iliketurtles[/charsig]

  23. #23
    .






    Your level of blindness is so high, that it is almost laughable.






    The word is out everybody, Creeps fail so hard that we are ruining PvP, QQ.






    You sound like a Freep.






    Username: hahawhat, you know how I am 100% sure you are overlooking any sense of population or statistical factors? Your example of a group that can "tear %#^$ up".

    So four Reavers and two War Leaders, right? No Wargs, no Spiders, and no Defilers... hmm I wonder why?

    If you know where I'm going with this, I shouldn't have to say anymore.






    I agree that playing with tactics can get you somewhere, but besides a few, most people don't even know how to anymore. When one can now reach rank 5 in a meer day or less you know the system is ###### up. People have become so accustomed to their ez-mode habits that skill and class knowledge have become secondary factors of the PvMP learning process.






    Sure PvMP is not meant to be balanced, but I find that to be such a mediocre scapegoat for the BS designs of some of the Freep classes.
    No matter how good of a player a Creep ever becomes it is unfair to them to have to play with such intensity if Mr. Freep over here is rolling over everything by simply banging his head on the keyboard.






    Speaking of ez-mode habits, just yesterday I was loling so hard at a certain Freep who as soon as I popped out of stealth, he wouldn't even bother to try and fight back, just straight up started running to the nearest healer... like really? You want to talk about sad? Understandable if it was some other Froob... but this certain Freep most likely would have beat me (not because of his skill, but because of his class) if he didn't play like such a little #####.






    :O






    Less Than Three~ Thunderboltz
    Last edited by mgm1o1; Aug 20 2013 at 03:05 PM.
    [charsig=http://lotrosigs.level3.turbine.com/0d2160100000fb85e/signature.png]Thunderboltz[/charsig]

  24. #24
    And thus we go from arguing with Turbine, to arguing with each other. Turbine wins I think. (Which is another fault of Turbine in itself. Without listening to it's players, it leaves no room for criticism or hope for change. Therefore, this is all we have left)
    [IMG]http://i44.tinypic.com/6gir6u.png[/IMG]

  25. #25
    Join Date
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    Quote Originally Posted by dagneyandleo View Post
    To an extent, I think you're right Lef: Players should be held accountable for their own actions.

    That does not mean, however, that the makers of the game shouldn't be held accountable when the mechanics and/or dev communication encourages those actions.

    There are camps of a sort in any game. When a t1 server in GW2 is randomly put with 2 t6 servers, rez camping happens as a matter of numbers: t1 servers are generally incredibly populous and active in WvW and they have the population coverage to defend the map 24/7. However, that situation rarely happens because in that game, generally, high pop servers are pitched against high pop servers. The 3 faction system also makes this unlikely, as rez camps are very quickly broken by the third team coming over and wiping the campers. This isn't a solution in LOTRO, because they can't exactly make a third alien faction without seriously effing up the lore. It is an example, however, of how PVP mechanics can maneuver the players natural instincts to a more dynamic fight.

    In RoI days, fights generally centered around TA because the placement of OC and EC: there was an ebb and flow as player count fluctuated and people used their NPCs to their advantage. Unfortunately, it meant everything else on the map didn't really matter. The Moors revamp was intended to get rid of this, make every outpost and keep matter, and create a more dynamic map. They succeeded on the first two points, but the mechanics themselves not only allow, but encourage the side with greater numbers (and not necessarily organization or talent) to completely dominate the map... Creeps or freeps. Moving the camps put bases closer to rezzes, encouraging rez camps. The OP mechanic allows the winning side to completely dominate the other by mechanics alone. Yes, players choose to take those camps. However, a player shouldn't have to think of the overall metagame simply to play in the Moors. The average player sees something red and kills it. They see some type of keep or outpost, they have a quest to take it, so they take it. In the current system, this works well when their are large numbers of both freeps and creeps on the map, but fails when one side has a large population imbalance. It's natural instinct: It's Turbine's fault, not theirs, for pushing that instinct in a manner that encourages rez camps. One of the goals of the dev diaries was as follows: "Reduce the statistical and strategic imbalances between the two sides." The outpost system as stands runs directly counter to that purpose. It gives the side with the most numbers a distinct statistical advantage that SHOULD NOT EXIST. Especially when one side's gear progression will give them an increasing statistical advantage over the course of an expansion. I don't think the outpost buffs are a bad idea overall, but they should be removed from outpost capture and instead be used similarly to the "Outnumbered" buff in GW2: When one side has a distinct population advantage, the other side would benefit from a statistical advantage to compete. They shouldn't have to go PVE to do so when the other side can spare the numbers to flip it back in a heartbeat.

    Because the system itself is screwed up, we create false handicaps for our playstyle, then get mad when people don't use them. Creep healing isn't as good as freep healing: Minis, rks, and cappies shouldn't be going heals. Or they shouldn't be grouped up. Or they shouldn't even come out on their OP characters. Champ bubbles are OP: they shouldn't use them in fights. One side outnumbers another: They should flip to the other side. And they shouldn't take OPs. Or they should just wander around the map looking for questers. But they shouldn't gank those questers if they're low ranked.

    I understand why we put these handicaps in place, but they're all based on a self-awareness that rarely exists in PVP systems. How many times have you read someone in OOC type "Craid ganked me at TR"? Then you go over their to find out that it was a single warg. In GW2, people call out "INC!!" in map chat, you ask numbers and they'll say "~40-50 they're close!" You go there and it's 10 people and they're half a league away from you. People aren't even reliable at counting how many enemies are standing in front of them, yet we expect them not only to reliably police themselves but to know why what they're doing is ethically right? If you got a fellow of three players together, I doubt you could even agree to which handicaps ARE ethically right. Frankly, players shouldn't be expected to do so: This is a game after all, and it's not fun to purposefully handicap yourself. I appreciate it when people do so, but I don't think it's right to expect it or get angry at them when they don't. That anger is misplaced and detrimental to the PVMP community as a whole - Though I admit and regret contributing to that anger. The last thing we need is an added reason for vitriol.

    </walloftext>
    Lythiea, this is the most insightful synopsis on the moors that I have ever read. Thank you.
    Threndinir - Retired Old Dwarf

 

 
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