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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrimbleGrumble View Post
    Sapience said 5 Big Battles. Considering all the complaints from many people (myself included) about the lack of information in HD, I have found that reading every bit of info has been valuable.
    How many skirmishes were available with the launch of Mirkwood?
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  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrimbleGrumble View Post
    Sapience said 5 Big Battles. Considering all the complaints from many people (myself included) about the lack of information in HD, I have found that reading every bit of info has been valuable.

    I'm getting really tired of the doom and gloom chicken little nonsense. This sentence is not aimed at just you.
    you call it nonsense, i call it genuine concerns. Turbine are changing a game i love to play.....traits/class builds or whatever, and making it (potentially) into something dreadful. Im a paying customer, i can grumble about changes i dont think are necessary, about the lack of new instances and raids, and about whatever i like...and so can other people.

    That all said i may like the changes, i may like the big battles....hence im trying it on bullroarer before i buy

  3. #28
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    I'm sure when Turbine sees the drop of subs and poor flow of income they will change this system back to how it was. Just like they created radiance and removed it afterwards. This will be one of these things.

  4. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Minquinn View Post
    About the loot. See I play a Guardian. New game is roll one and see how many instances you gotta run to get a usable tank item to drop.
    The time between Skraids and update 11 I won 1 teal piece of usable tank loot from every thing I ran. The rest I had to spend gold to get on the AH when the prices finally dropped. And how is it that the only ones winning the Warg Pens tanking wrist are cappies and champs? lol

    Unless they simply want to fix the loot system and give me something other than items with fate and tactical mastery on them. That would be acceptable. The latest loot system was lame. I had no problem getting my skraid jewelry by simply rolling on it. Now I might be just given loot that is not even class appropriate.
    My girlfriend and I ran School and Library close to 1200 times (not an exageration - all her runs in there were with me and at level 85 so we were able to track it. I ran it more than that because on top of the 1200 runs I did with her, I also ran it with others). We saw 2 gold drops. Both guard helms. She has but the one head but was pleased all the same to have something to use in OP. I did however win two pocket items from the Barrows in a few hundred runs in there. Know of kinmates who had even worse luck than that and didn't have any luck whatsoever in running instances and getting anything worthwhile. So I gave up playing against the random number generator. Not logged into my freep characters in close to 4 months now. Didn't purchase the new expansion zone. When things are silly, things are silly.

  5. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Crell_1 View Post
    How many skirmishes were available with the launch of Mirkwood?
    I'm not sure off the top of my head, only a few have been added since then. Maybe 15? Not sure how that's relevant. Clearly Big Battles will have more replay potential than Skirmishes, considering that obtaining Platinum medals sounds as if it will provide some sort of challenge. I don't think these Big Battles will be all lolfaceroll like some people expect.

  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrimbleGrumble View Post
    I'm not sure off the top of my head, only a few have been added since then. Maybe 15? Not sure how that's relevant. Clearly Big Battles will have more replay potential than Skirmishes, considering that obtaining Platinum medals sounds as if it will provide some sort of challenge. I don't think these Big Battles will be all lolfaceroll like some people expect.
    It's relevent because Big-Battles are similiar to skirmishes. Only they scale less in size so we've been told and only have 1 level range to balance for.

    For example say we get 5 big-battles. Your estimate for mirkwood was 15 skirmishes. Seems to me that the 15 skirmishes have more potential for re-playability.

    The challenge level of Platinum medals will not change the replayability factor much.
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  7. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by pvdtheking View Post
    you call it nonsense, i call it genuine concerns. Turbine are changing a game i love to play.....traits/class builds or whatever, and making it (potentially) into something dreadful. Im a paying customer, i can grumble about changes i dont think are necessary, about the lack of new instances and raids, and about whatever i like...and so can other people.

    That all said i may like the changes, i may like the big battles....hence im trying it on bullroarer before i buy
    This game has changed with every expansion, and sometimes with other updates. I certainly would not wish to take away anyone's ability to grumble about things they dislike, but what I do find tiresome is griping and complaining over something that some people clearly have not even taken the time to read the (admittedly limted) information about them. Like people repeating #### about being "forced" to group with lowbies, like OMG NO GROUP CONTENT and all this stuff that if people bothered to become informed instead of becoming infromed then maybe we could have civil conversations about the positives and negatives as we perceive them to be. You can grumble all you want about something (potentially) dreadful or something (potentially) awesome. I was commenting on the general attitude of "OMG sky falling" that, as I said, various Chicken Little's around here seem to exhibit. And you did seem to believe there was only 1 Big Battle being released, and you seemed to be drawing some of your anger from that incorrect belief.

    Everyone seems to agree that content is too easy and faceroll. Turbine seems to be trying to adjust the classes to restore the challenge that many (rightly IMO) see as missing. I would like to see more constructive conversations and less uniformed shooting off of ignorant mouths (not directed at you, but generally). I know this is the internet, and ignorant shooting off of mouths is a prevalent occurrence. This community is better than that (sometimes), and I think the players and the developers would be better served by positivity than by negativity.

    Edited for clarity.
    Last edited by GrimbleGrumble; Sep 09 2013 at 02:16 PM.

  8. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Crell_1 View Post

    The challenge level of Platinum medals will not change the replayability factor much.
    I understand where you are coming from, but what is your evidence for this claim? Erebor had more raids than either Mirkwood, ITA, or RoI. Does that mean Erebor raids offered more replayability than those others? Or is it possible that quality could be more important than quantity?

    If Platinum medals are as easy to obtain as you seem to expect them to be, then I will be the first to admit that 5 Big Battles will get boring very quickly. If, however, obtaining the most and best rewards requires organization and dedicated groups playing a balanced mix of classes, then that sounds exactly like a raiding environment to me.

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrimbleGrumble View Post
    If Platinum medals are as easy to obtain as you seem to expect them to be, then I will be the first to admit that 5 Big Battles will get boring very quickly. If, however, obtaining the most and best rewards requires organization and dedicated groups playing a balanced mix of classes, then that sounds exactly like a raiding environment to me.
    Once you can attain them, you'll be able to do so repeatedly. It's unlikely they will provide any kind of locks because that will disincentive playing with your newly scaled buddy. Obviously they want to do everything they can to get new players playing and buying the expansion, so they'll do what they can to minimize any impediments there where possible.

    Having more spaces means a greater variety of options for attaining the currency and a decreased likelihood of burnout.
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  10. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Crell_1 View Post
    Once you can attain them, you'll be able to do so repeatedly. It's unlikely they will provide any kind of locks because that will disincentive playing with your newly scaled buddy. Obviously they want to do everything they can to get new players playing and buying the expansion, so they'll do what they can to minimize any impediments there where possible.

    Having more spaces means a greater variety of options for attaining the currency and a decreased likelihood of burnout.
    I suppose it's possible that I am being overly optimistic, and that obtaining Platinum will not actually require some organization and optimal play. If it is as you seem to believe (not to put words in your mouth) and there will be PUGs farming Platinum from day 1, then I will certainly agree that Big Battles are a massive failure. To me it all comes down to the difficulty of obtaining the best rewards. As far as that goes, completing T2 Flight without an organized group is something that I haven't heard of happening on any server. Which is required to get the Greater Erebor Armour, arguably the best sets (depending on what a player wants to do). For this and other reasons, I am still taking a wait-and-see approach as to the ease of acquiring Platinum medals.

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrimbleGrumble View Post
    I understand where you are coming from, but what is your evidence for this claim? Erebor had more raids than either Mirkwood, ITA, or RoI. Does that mean Erebor raids offered more replayability than those others? Or is it possible that quality could be more important than quantity?

    If Platinum medals are as easy to obtain as you seem to expect them to be, then I will be the first to admit that 5 Big Battles will get boring very quickly. If, however, obtaining the most and best rewards requires organization and dedicated groups playing a balanced mix of classes, then that sounds exactly like a raiding environment to me.
    We can only hope. If it becomes BFE or Sambrog 2.0 I have a feeling it will get old quick. I think the length of the instances is in question as well. After completing BFE for the first time my exact quote was: "That's it? Where's the rest of the instance?"

    To me throwing a boss into an instance is not a raid.
    throwing waves of elite mobs into an instance is not a raid.

    Take the same 3 "raids" and combine them and throw some trash mobs into the fray and it can be called a raid. And when the loot box is opened atleast 3 people should get teal items. Rather than spam running 1 over and over to receive relics and bounties. Do you see where that got old quick?

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrimbleGrumble View Post
    I understand where you are coming from, but what is your evidence for this claim? Erebor had more raids than either Mirkwood, ITA, or RoI. Does that mean Erebor raids offered more replayability than those others? Or is it possible that quality could be more important than quantity?

    If Platinum medals are as easy to obtain as you seem to expect them to be, then I will be the first to admit that 5 Big Battles will get boring very quickly. If, however, obtaining the most and best rewards requires organization and dedicated groups playing a balanced mix of classes, then that sounds exactly like a raiding environment to me.
    Actually Erebor had only one raid with three wings - and you had to complete all 3 for the chance to buy a 1a symbol from the skirm guy.

    If you are counting scaled raids, don't. Without putting something in them worth running for (i.e. 1a symbols) then no one plays there. When Erebor came out my kin planned on doing the new Erebor raid on weeknights and doing scaled OD on raid days for symbols - right up til we found out there would be no symbols in OD. Then we scrapped that idea totally and farmed Erebor raids. We were bored stiff but that was where the symbols were.

    As to quality of the raid, nothing in Erebor came close to what had been released before. It was a disappointment to many of us.
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  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beaniemooch View Post
    If you are counting scaled raids, don't. Without putting something in them worth running for (i.e. 1a symbols) then no one plays there. When Erebor came out my kin planned on doing the new Erebor raid on weeknights and doing scaled OD on raid days for symbols - right up til we found out there would be no symbols in OD. Then we scrapped that idea totally and farmed Erebor raids. We were bored stiff but that was where the symbols were.
    Actually, my groups are more likely to run OD than Erebor, because we actually like to have fun when we play.
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  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by TinDragon View Post
    Actually, my groups are more likely to run OD than Erebor, because we actually like to have fun when we play.
    I can appreciate that totally. Unfortunately in my experience you would be in the minority unless it's a pug group perhaps. Kins looking to acquire legendary weapons for their members and the latest gear would not go your route. We did OD for fun. Once. Then realized people needed things and OD wouldn't give it to us. Had they put anything worthwhile to farm or return to OD for, we would've gone there. But they didn't so neither did we.

    I would see an OD run in GLFF every couple days of an evening or a weekend. It would take about an hour-ish to fill and most times ended up without completion. Mostly people who had never been and had little experience there were the ones wanting to go, and again I appreciate that. But the experienced folks for the most part were been there/done that/got the tee shirt/no new stuff mini LFF for (fill in farming instance for whatever here).

    And my idea of fun when I play is to accomplish a challenge with the possibility of that illusive carrot at the end. No carrot takes a lot of my fun away.
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  15. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrimbleGrumble View Post
    I understand where you are coming from, but what is your evidence for this claim? Erebor had more raids than either Mirkwood, ITA, or RoI. Does that mean Erebor raids offered more replayability than those others? Or is it possible that quality could be more important than quantity?

    If Platinum medals are as easy to obtain as you seem to expect them to be, then I will be the first to admit that 5 Big Battles will get boring very quickly. If, however, obtaining the most and best rewards requires organization and dedicated groups playing a balanced mix of classes, then that sounds exactly like a raiding environment to me.
    I think in terms of replay-ability Erebors lacks the rewards to keep players doing the raids. You can do Spambrog and get to your ideal seal requirement for 1st agers granted one needs to do 12-man erebors to get unlocks. One and done pretty much unless someone is trying to get gold epic pieces... but the gold epic pieces are below standard compared to horselords that drops from solo and the chances of getting first agers in riddermark boxes.

    Doubt nothing has change with this system. Big battles sounds intriguing but if they can't buff this rewards for playing in group why bother. I be waiting till HD goes on sale before I buy it. Even that I don't expect my kin buddies to come back.
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  16. #41
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    We don't know anything substantial about Big Battles yet.

    I for one hope the loot system gets revised. When I read about people doing 100s of runs and consider that each of these runs had the same ###### chance to drop a nice item, that sounds discouraging.

    I understand gold items are meant to be rare and their inflow should therefore be limited. I've said it before and I'll say it again: for your own sanity you really just shouldn't be going for these items the way they are implemented atm.

    Let's hope HD brings a combination of a random system and a barter system for it's best loot. The barter system being the workable goal that even though it may be an effort to get there gives you certainty you'll be rewarded for all your time and effort. The random system being the little sparkle of hope you get when opening the chest at the end... the jackpot may be right in there. I think such a hybrid system is really the best of both worlds: it gives the raiders something consistent to work with and a casual also has a long shot, and the barter system may sway the casual to try a bit of raiding.

    Of course we're going to have the old sillyness about 'solo no can haz raid loot' and 'solo must haz all raiders get too'. Oh come on? Give a little, take a little? All play nice in this sandbox? *sighs* I'd wish to see a bit more matureness from this awardwinning community. I'd say my above proprosed hybrid system gives everyone at least a longshot at the best stuff and presents raiders with a consistent reward for their efforts while also ensuring they'll be much more decked out.

    And to end with a positive spin:

    If anything, the way the gold pocket item is handled in Wildermore, could be a tell tale sign that "gold and barter" is finding it's way into the looting system. One may hope, aight?

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rainothon View Post
    We don't know anything substantial about Big Battles yet.

    I for one hope the loot system gets revised. When I read about people doing 100s of runs and consider that each of these runs had the same ###### chance to drop a nice item, that sounds discouraging.

    I understand gold items are meant to be rare and their inflow should therefore be limited. I've said it before and I'll say it again: for your own sanity you really just shouldn't be going for these items the way they are implemented atm.

    Let's hope HD brings a combination of a random system and a barter system for it's best loot. The barter system being the workable goal that even though it may be an effort to get there gives you certainty you'll be rewarded for all your time and effort. The random system being the little sparkle of hope you get when opening the chest at the end... the jackpot may be right in there. I think such a hybrid system is really the best of both worlds: it gives the raiders something consistent to work with and a casual also has a long shot, and the barter system may sway the casual to try a bit of raiding.

    Of course we're going to have the old sillyness about 'solo no can haz raid loot' and 'solo must haz all raiders get too'. Oh come on? Give a little, take a little? All play nice in this sandbox? *sighs* I'd wish to see a bit more matureness from this awardwinning community. I'd say my above proprosed hybrid system gives everyone at least a longshot at the best stuff and presents raiders with a consistent reward for their efforts while also ensuring they'll be much more decked out.

    And to end with a positive spin:

    If anything, the way the gold pocket item is handled in Wildermore, could be a tell tale sign that "gold and barter" is finding it's way into the looting system. One may hope, aight?
    From the little we know about big battles it seems to me it will be a hybrid system in both in group size and reward(specifically referring here to the part about being able to upgrade bronze victories to silver ones over time).
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  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by GrimbleGrumble View Post
    This game has changed with every expansion, and sometimes with other updates. I certainly would not wish to take away anyone's ability to grumble about things they dislike, but what I do find tiresome is griping and complaining over something that some people clearly have not even taken the time to read the (admittedly limted) information about them. Like people repeating #### about being "forced" to group with lowbies, like OMG NO GROUP CONTENT and all this stuff that if people bothered to become informed instead of becoming infromed then maybe we could have civil conversations about the positives and negatives as we perceive them to be. You can grumble all you want about something (potentially) dreadful or something (potentially) awesome. I was commenting on the general attitude of "OMG sky falling" that, as I said, various Chicken Little's around here seem to exhibit. And you did seem to believe there was only 1 Big Battle being released, and you seemed to be drawing some of your anger from that incorrect belief.

    Everyone seems to agree that content is too easy and faceroll. Turbine seems to be trying to adjust the classes to restore the challenge that many (rightly IMO) see as missing. I would like to see more constructive conversations and less uniformed shooting off of ignorant mouths (not directed at you, but generally). I know this is the internet, and ignorant shooting off of mouths is a prevalent occurrence. This community is better than that (sometimes), and I think the players and the developers would be better served by positivity than by negativity.

    Edited for clarity.
    Ill admit, from information you gave me 5 big battles MAY just be the ticket for me when it comes to group content coming out with HD. The lack of group content comment was meant at the lack of traditional instances/raids coming with HD.

    I know the content atm is too easy atm...it says something when isengard t2cm raids (all wings/saruman) are probably as hard as the erebor t2 raids and they arent thie same level. This shows turbine could make content harder without changing the classes so much.

    Anyways like i keep saying, im looking forward to trying out HD, for good or for bad

  19. #44
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    My remark on loot system. If I look at it as at a big picture, I can immediately say: Loot system must be tuned in the way that most of active players should get best gear by the time when the next game expansion is out. That means that we have to work hard about 6-12 months to get our best gear.

    A lot of people say that they don't get anything useful from the loot. Alright. And what happens if they get everything they want in a couple of weeks? Then they stop doing raids/instances/skirmishes because there'll be no sence in doing it at all.

    The real problem is: You must get good gear quite soon. Otherwise you'll not be able to finish some raids (or you'll be much more weaker than your much more luckier fellows). And then you must have a possibility to improve your gear. That'll be your driving force to go into raid/instance/skirmish/etc... Gear improvement can only be in the range of 10-20 % in 6-12 months timeframe! (in my opinion). You have here two or three options: Either you do it gradually like improving your gear 0.2%-0.5% per week or do it in steps or just get it like a single piece after completing 100-200 unsuccessful raids/instances/skirmishes. Which of the options do you prefer?

    If I get it right, Turbine uses all possible options. On gear it mostly use option three (get it as a single piece on a lucky run). On legacies is uses option one (improve your LI legacies gradually in 6-12 months timeframe).

  20. #45
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    By far the most dramatic development in this expansion is going to be the epic battles. Epic battles are not skirmishes, per se, but, that’s the closest comparison the game currently has. As Hanna put it, “Think of them as the big bad cousin of skirmishes.”
    http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/g...p-Preview.html

    Certainly sounds like the concern about variety and the parallels to skirmishes are justified.

    All I've got running through my head is the skirmish with the catapults, where someone's selecting one to fire periodically. Each battle might just have a different back drop and gimmick. I hope I'm wrong.
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  21. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crell_1 View Post
    http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/g...p-Preview.html

    Certainly sounds like the concern about variety and the parallels to skirmishes are justified.

    All I've got running through my head is the skirmish with the catapults, where someone's selecting one to fire periodically. Each battle might just have a different back drop and gimmick. I hope I'm wrong.
    Hello Crell the words you are looking for are:
    "Glorified" Protectors of Thangulhad
    The Mirkwood skirm with the Catapults. i added the word glorified because it may be what we are getting but I could be wrong. So before people flame my post note that I make no claims that this is what it will be.

    The performance of the Turbine team of late has me thinking this though.

  22. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Crell_1 View Post
    http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/g...p-Preview.html

    Certainly sounds like the concern about variety and the parallels to skirmishes are justified.

    All I've got running through my head is the skirmish with the catapults, where someone's selecting one to fire periodically. Each battle might just have a different back drop and gimmick. I hope I'm wrong.
    I don't think you are wrong, but I do think (and hope) that you are not seeing what the big picture will be. Catapults here, a wall being attacked there, orc archers back there, some dying guys over yonder, etc. A 12-man raid may have people in groups of 1 and 2 doing 5 or 6 things all at the same time. From what I have read, it sounds like it will require some coordination to get the best rewards.

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minquinn View Post
    I love your ideas for group content. I predict there will be those entering this thread who don't group who are going to flame this post instead of actually reading.

    And big battles is the finally nail in the raid coffin and maybe the 3 and 6 man content as well.
    Okay, and you're post is more valuable because you're flaming the flamers? (I know it seem like I flame you but that isn't the point)
    The point is that propably YOU didn't read the posts of the other one or even the opening post. Most of the people above you, take excerpt for excrept from the OP and explainiing their opinion to it and giving examples or arguments while you just quote the whole OP and say: "Well done. Super!" amd saying nothing else. Explain why it is super. Tell us, what arguments do you have...

    PS. such a suitable answer from me is following in a few minutes. :P

  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by DavisBoz View Post
    I know turbine has already said there will be no new traditional instances or raids with Helm's Deep, but there are a few things I'd like to see with the ones they scale and the ones they plan to make in the future..

    1. LOCKS. Locks are your friend (even if it doesn't seem like it at times). Locks are a very good method of preventing farming (and when an instance is farmed too often, it quickly becomes boring/less fun. And bored players are unsatisfied customers). Even just a limit of doing the challenge on a 3/6 man once per day would help. A 1-2 day lock on the Erebor raids would have easily prevented the mass farming that occurred. Also, when scaling, don't break up the raid (i.e. Ost Dunhoth). That promotes farming of the easiest wing (not that anyone really does OD when they could simply do NCF or STH and hope for some golds). A t2c raid should have locks, and a player shouldn't be able to do it as many times as they want in one week's time.

    2. Some kind of barter system. Erebor Gems was okay, but since the gems were tradable and you only needed 9 to get both rings and your necklace, there was no point in continuing to do the raids after you had acquired all the ones you need (besides a FA symbol, but we all know it wasn't long before everyone had at least one of those). Turbine did well in the past with special drops from certain bosses that could be turned in for gear (i.e. Rift, Watcher, DN, OD) and with other prizes per boss chest, such as Moria/Lothlorien medallions, Orthanc sigil fragments, etc. which could be traded for jewellery and gear.

    3. Loot. This one is closely connected with suggestion #2. When you do the current 3/6/12 mans, its quite discouraging to open the chest at the end and mostly find bounties and relics. That just makes it seem like doing the instance was a waste of your time. This is where the barter system comes in. Putting SOMETHING in the chest that's worthwhile makes the disappointment not as great, and inspires the desire to want to do the instance again. I recently did a BG t2c at 85, and the only thing I got out of all 4 chests was a Tarnished Symbol of Celebrimbor (which I had no use for), and some bounties and relics. I think it's wrong that one should feel like they came out of a t2c with nothing but relics and bounties. Also, don't make teal items trade-able. That is just another way to defeat the purpose of doing instances/raids, when you can just go to the AH and buy some nice teal jewellery/gear.

    4. MULTI-BOSS RAIDS. This has more to do with future instances, since Turbine has scaled some multi-boss raids. But they are simply more fun than single-boss raids. With single-boss raids, you just go in, kill the boss (or trolls, or easterlings) and you're done. With multi-boss raids, you've got to clear trash along with 3+ bosses at least. It takes more time and thought, which to me (and I'm sure most raiders) is much more fun.

    So please Turbine, if you still care for the raiding community even a little, help us. Give us SOMETHING to work with. Please.
    1. Locks: For raids (and possibly some 6-men-instances) it is a good way to prevent grinding. I agree. But not for 3-men-instances and a few 6-man-instances when you like them to do 2 or several times a day. This doesn't already mean grinding... The limit per day sounds better for the 3- and 6-men-instances, and maybe per cluster not for all in general and not for every single instance...

    2. I agree with your opinion of current barter system and suggestion reffering re-usage of the older system. But you need more than 8. To get the T2-gear you have to exchange 2 gems for every equipment part, so for a 4-part-bonus at least 8 gems, for full 6 (2 different T2-gear traits) 12 gems + necklace and rings...

    3. Yeah, there is the problem that you can get nothing with much work, but people with less effort get a golden item. This isn't very balanced or very fair. But casual players should have a chance to get the same things they want - and that propably is also best gear. So the suggestion of Rainothon sounds good because it offers a chance for casual players while rewarding efforts of raiders...

    Quote Originally Posted by Rainothon View Post
    Let's hope HD brings a combination of a random system and a barter system for it's best loot. The barter system being the workable goal that even though it may be an effort to get there gives you certainty you'll be rewarded for all your time and effort. The random system being the little sparkle of hope you get when opening the chest at the end... the jackpot may be right in there. I think such a hybrid system is really the best of both worlds: it gives the raiders something consistent to work with and a casual also has a long shot, and the barter system may sway the casual to try a bit of raiding.
    4. Yeah. Multi-boss raids bring more fun. But also needs more time invested. And thats the point. Flight and Smaug you can exactly say how long you need for a run (10/25 minutes when all works). It's pretty short and that's how the audience wants it. Although I don't know how this can happen but shorter raids are a reaction from Turbine for a majority of people to make raids shorter than these "old, odd dungeon-raids". And as said I don't know where this audience is when so many people are complaining about it now.
    But I like multi-boss-raids and they're fascinating more because you get more and more into the dungeon, became part of the raid's background history. In Erebor the raid is finished before you're even in it. Also I would like to run Rift, bt because of its level 50 and the long time you have to invest there's no raid at any time now... which for example is a negative side of multi-boss-raids.






    Quote Originally Posted by GrimbleGrumble View Post
    I suppose it's possible that I am being overly optimistic, and that obtaining Platinum will not actually require some organization and optimal play. If it is as you seem to believe (not to put words in your mouth) and there will be PUGs farming Platinum from day 1, then I will certainly agree that Big Battles are a massive failure. To me it all comes down to the difficulty of obtaining the best rewards. As far as that goes, completing T2 Flight without an organized group is something that I haven't heard of happening on any server. Which is required to get the Greater Erebor Armour, arguably the best sets (depending on what a player wants to do). For this and other reasons, I am still taking a wait-and-see approach as to the ease of acquiring Platinum medals.
    And it's pretty seldom that someone finishes Flight T2C, even with it's 80 instead of 100 mobs.

    Quote Originally Posted by Crell_1 View Post
    It's relevent because Big-Battles are similiar to skirmishes. Only they scale less in size so we've been told and only have 1 level range to balance for.

    For example say we get 5 big-battles. Your estimate for mirkwood was 15 skirmishes. Seems to me that the 15 skirmishes have more potential for re-playability.

    The challenge level of Platinum medals will not change the replayability factor much.

    Ehm, they are NOT like skirmishes. They are different. They are just closer to skirmishes than instances or everythin else. It's like you're saying a cow(BB) is a like a pig(skirmishes) (both mammals) because the cow is just more similar to a pig than maybe to insects (instances); just because it is more similar, they don't have to be very similar or the same. And like GrimbleGrumble already said, Crell-1, quantity isn't quality:

    Quote Originally Posted by GrimbleGrumble View Post
    I understand where you are coming from, but what is your evidence for this claim? Erebor had more raids than either Mirkwood, ITA, or RoI. Does that mean Erebor raids offered more replayability than those others? Or is it possible that quality could be more important than quantity?

    If Platinum medals are as easy to obtain as you seem to expect them to be, then I will be the first to admit that 5 Big Battles will get boring very quickly. If, however, obtaining the most and best rewards requires organization and dedicated groups playing a balanced mix of classes, then that sounds exactly like a raiding environment to me.
    And another point: These 15 skirmishes evolved during more than 1 year which is the time for the HD expansion...

  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orodbril View Post
    And it's pretty seldom that someone finishes Flight T2C, even with it's 80 instead of 100 mobs.
    When the major factor in finishing Flight T2 since the nerf has been getting lucky with the lag at the wave-spawn, its not at all a surprise. I say that as having completed Flight T2 legit, as part of a server-first group prior to the wholly unnecessary nerf.



    Quote Originally Posted by Orodbril View Post

    Ehm, they are NOT like skirmishes. They are different. They are just closer to skirmishes than instances or everythin else. It's like you're saying a cow(BB) is a like a pig(skirmishes) (both mammals) because the cow is just more similar to a pig than maybe to insects (instances); just because it is more similar, they don't have to be very similar or the same. And like GrimbleGrumble already said, Crell-1, quantity isn't quality:
    They are the closest analog we have. The only way you can say they're vastly dissimilar to skirmishes is to admit to playing them and violate your NDA. I expect them to be more similar to skirmishes than they are different. I'll be happy to be proven wrong. I'll point out we have multiple skirmishes in which we can have a player perform a skirmish specific role. Protectors of Thang-Catapults, 2.5.5 x3-Banner Dropper, Stand at Amon Sul-Campfire Lighter

    Quantity isn't quality, to be sure. All one has to do is look at the Erebor (3x12 raid, 1x6 man, 3x3mans) instance cluster in comparison to In their Absence (2x3, 2x6, 1x12) or Rise of Isengard (1x6, 3x3, 2x12) to see that. That said, it sure goes a long way toward preventing burnout.
    Crell-L85-Champion - Riddermark ; Swego-L85-Burglar ; Kotvi-L95-Runekeeper
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