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  1. #1

    Raids (or lack thereof)

    I know turbine has already said there will be no new traditional instances or raids with Helm's Deep, but there are a few things I'd like to see with the ones they scale and the ones they plan to make in the future..

    1. LOCKS. Locks are your friend (even if it doesn't seem like it at times). Locks are a very good method of preventing farming (and when an instance is farmed too often, it quickly becomes boring/less fun. And bored players are unsatisfied customers). Even just a limit of doing the challenge on a 3/6 man once per day would help. A 1-2 day lock on the Erebor raids would have easily prevented the mass farming that occurred. Also, when scaling, don't break up the raid (i.e. Ost Dunhoth). That promotes farming of the easiest wing (not that anyone really does OD when they could simply do NCF or STH and hope for some golds). A t2c raid should have locks, and a player shouldn't be able to do it as many times as they want in one week's time.

    2. Some kind of barter system. Erebor Gems was okay, but since the gems were tradable and you only needed 9 to get both rings and your necklace, there was no point in continuing to do the raids after you had acquired all the ones you need (besides a FA symbol, but we all know it wasn't long before everyone had at least one of those). Turbine did well in the past with special drops from certain bosses that could be turned in for gear (i.e. Rift, Watcher, DN, OD) and with other prizes per boss chest, such as Moria/Lothlorien medallions, Orthanc sigil fragments, etc. which could be traded for jewellery and gear.

    3. Loot. This one is closely connected with suggestion #2. When you do the current 3/6/12 mans, its quite discouraging to open the chest at the end and mostly find bounties and relics. That just makes it seem like doing the instance was a waste of your time. This is where the barter system comes in. Putting SOMETHING in the chest that's worthwhile makes the disappointment not as great, and inspires the desire to want to do the instance again. I recently did a BG t2c at 85, and the only thing I got out of all 4 chests was a Tarnished Symbol of Celebrimbor (which I had no use for), and some bounties and relics. I think it's wrong that one should feel like they came out of a t2c with nothing but relics and bounties. Also, don't make teal items trade-able. That is just another way to defeat the purpose of doing instances/raids, when you can just go to the AH and buy some nice teal jewellery/gear.

    4. MULTI-BOSS RAIDS. This has more to do with future instances, since Turbine has scaled some multi-boss raids. But they are simply more fun than single-boss raids. With single-boss raids, you just go in, kill the boss (or trolls, or easterlings) and you're done. With multi-boss raids, you've got to clear trash along with 3+ bosses at least. It takes more time and thought, which to me (and I'm sure most raiders) is much more fun.

    So please Turbine, if you still care for the raiding community even a little, help us. Give us SOMETHING to work with. Please.
    Last edited by DavisBoz; Aug 13 2013 at 05:46 PM.

  2. #2
    I'd like to see Turbine give us a chance to see 1st agers drop in scaled raids (t2 and t2c).

    Traditional multi-stage progression raids such as BG and OD can offer challenges to new players, seasoned players on new characters, for those looking to cut their teeth @ leading and/or teaching raids.

    These traditional raids are also more challenging (multiple mechanics are in play in ToO, DN, BG, and OD vs. the new "raid" instances) and require more time to complete.

    There might be other reasons, I'll leave these to others to mention, but again based on time investment, mechanics to be overcome and the simple fact that these are lvl 85 raids it is my opinion that 1st ager drops should be a possibility.
    A vote for Sapience is a vote for progress? A 4th fix to get Draigoch to "dragon up" that still doesn't fix the persistent bug in the raid is not how I define progress.

  3. #3
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    Also, please don't punish the players for your mistakes in this go around with things. Listen to people on the beta servers for once, listen to people that are actually playing the content, fix the bugs before you release it to the public after people have paid money for it. Turbine is quickly developing a reputation for being one of the most unreliable and misleading gaming companies currently in existence. And hopefully after the mass exodus this Summer you'll realize you can't just walk all over people.

    For the sake of every new player out there, take Draigoch down and remove it from the LOTRO store. Or make it a free instance, because it's definitely not worth the money at this point. This is your mistake, we should not be liable for anything that happens. GMs need to kill it when it bugs for people running it and allow it to be looted. Every other MMO I've played acknowledges when they release something dysfunctional, and when it breaks, the GMs take care of it because it's not the players' fault!

    No more daily farm instances, please. The glaring issue with these was made apparent to you by the people on the test server and yet you chose to ignore it. Twice. Then we get punished for your screw ups with a greatly decreased drop rate for recipes and then we have no alternative but to farm to get them, so it's a lose-lose.

    Revise your stupid loot system and reward the players who actually put the effort into the game. Most of the reason I quit playing was because all the things I had worked so hard to earn with groups of very talented players was rendered null after the hardest part in getting the loot became hoping you win the gamble with the chest at the end. Unfortunately, this should not be an "everybody is a winner" situation. No, not everyone can have the best gear, that's just how it is. If you want the best gear, then put in the effort for it like the rest of us do. Many people simply shouldn't have all the gear they do, but thanks to the new "fair" looting system, many of the people who should have the gear don't have it.

    Less of a "what I'd like to see changed with raids" and more of "don't repeat past stupidity so we don't have to quit playing". The Erebor instances were an absolute joke, don't get me wrong, but the problems with the raiding system lay at a very basic level here, and it all simply comes down to: LOW QUALITY.
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  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by voalkrynn2 View Post
    I'd like to see Turbine give us a chance to see 1st agers drop in scaled raids (t2 and t2c).

    Traditional multi-stage progression raids such as BG and OD can offer challenges to new players, seasoned players on new characters, for those looking to cut their teeth @ leading and/or teaching raids.

    These traditional raids are also more challenging (multiple mechanics are in play in ToO, DN, BG, and OD vs. the new "raid" instances) and require more time to complete.

    There might be other reasons, I'll leave these to others to mention, but again based on time investment, mechanics to be overcome and the simple fact that these are lvl 85 raids it is my opinion that 1st ager drops should be a possibility.
    I whole-heartedly agree with the idea that first ages should drop from scaled t2c's. That makes perfect sense, but for some reason turbine didn't do it ): The traditional ones are definitely more challenging than Erebor, but sadly with the scaling they aren't as hard as they once were. The BG t2c I was in was half-PUG'd. So for their next scale (or, hopefully, new traditional instance cluster) I hope they give us a real challenge, or at least the challenge that the scaled raid was at release.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Kajil View Post
    Less of a "what I'd like to see changed with raids" and more of "don't repeat past stupidity so we don't have to quit playing". The Erebor instances were an absolute joke, don't get me wrong, but the problems with the raiding system lay at a very basic level here, and it all simply comes down to: LOW QUALITY.
    I agree with you there. Turbine has proved in the past that they can do a good job with raid content, but they haven't shown it with Rohan.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by DavisBoz View Post
    1. LOCKS. Locks are your friend (even if it doesn't seem like it at times). Locks are a very good method of preventing farming (and when an instance is farmed too often, it quickly becomes boring/less fun. And bored players are unsatisfied customers). Even just a limit of doing the challenge on a 3/6 man once per day would help. A 1-2 day lock on the Erebor raids would have easily prevented the mass farming that occurred. Also, when scaling, don't break up the raid (i.e. Ost Dunhoth). That promotes farming of the easiest wing (not that anyone really does OD when they could simply do NCF or STH and hope for some golds). A t2c raid should have locks, and a player shouldn't be able to do it as many times as they want in one week's time.
    Unfortunately traditional locks apparently don't play well with their scaling system. A large amount of the problem may lie in the fact that we also have remote looting now, whereas skirmishes don't support that feature. Even the skirmish "fake locks" aren't implemented that well though.

    2. Some kind of barter system. Erebor Gems was okay, but since the gems were tradable and you only needed 9 to get both rings and your necklace, there was no point in continuing to do the raids after you had acquired all the ones you need (besides a FA symbol, but we all know it wasn't long before everyone had at least one of those). Turbine did well in the past with special drops from certain bosses that could be turned in for gear (i.e. Rift, Watcher, DN, OD) and with other prizes per boss chest, such as Moria/Lothlorien medallions, Orthanc sigil fragments, etc. which could be traded for jewellery and gear.
    Sounds good to me. (Side note though, you only needed 8 for two rings and a necklace. Necklace only requires 2.)

    3. Loot. This one is closely connected with suggestion #2. When you do the current 3/6/12 mans, its quite discouraging to open the chest at the end and mostly find bounties and relics. That just makes it seem like doing the instance was a waste of your time. This is where the barter system comes in. Putting SOMETHING in the chest that's worthwhile makes the disappointment not as great, and inspires the desire to want to do the instance again. I recently did a BG t2c at 85, and the only thing I got out of all 4 chests was a Tarnished Symbol of Celebrimbor (which I had no use for), and some bounties and relics. I think it's wrong that one should feel like they came out of a t2c with nothing but relics and bounties. Also, don't make teal items trade-able. That is just another way to defeat the purpose of doing instances/raids, when you can just go to the AH and buy some nice teal jewellery/gear.
    I do find this part pretty annoying. The system should have a way to verify at least one person gets a teal on T2 runs and that at least one person gets a purple on T1. It's very frustrating to get 4 purples after running through challenge mode on something, or to not receive any sort of gear at all from an easier run. However, the last thing you mention (selling items) is the only thing that would make that work. I'm pretty happy to get any sort of loot and happy when others do too, but that happiness would drop immensely if that gear is something I or the other person doesn't need and we can't do anything other than vendor it. Personally, I give my slightly worse stuff out in GLFF to people who can't run instances as well.

    4. MULTI-BOSS RAIDS. This has more to do with future instances, since Turbine has scaled some multi-boss raids. But they are simply more fun than single-boss raids. With single-boss raids, you just go in, kill the boss (or trolls, or easterlings) and you're done. With multi-boss raids, you've got to clear trash along with 3+ bosses at least. It takes more time and thought, which to me (and I'm sure most raiders) is much more fun.
    I don't mind single-boss raids as long as they're not lair raids. (Smaug gets an exemption from this, due to its added mechanics.) I do enjoy strategizing my way past adds to get to the boss though, as long as the trash isn't harder than the boss himself. (Looking at you, Acid Wing.)
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  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by TinDragon View Post
    Unfortunately traditional locks apparently don't play well with their scaling system. A large amount of the problem may lie in the fact that we also have remote looting now, whereas skirmishes don't support that feature. Even the skirmish "fake locks" aren't implemented that well though.

    I do find this part pretty annoying. The system should have a way to verify at least one person gets a teal on T2 runs and that at least one person gets a purple on T1. It's very frustrating to get 4 purples after running through challenge mode on something, or to not receive any sort of gear at all from an easier run. However, the last thing you mention (selling items) is the only thing that would make that work. I'm pretty happy to get any sort of loot and happy when others do too, but that happiness would drop immensely if that gear is something I or the other person doesn't need and we can't do anything other than vendor it. Personally, I give my slightly worse stuff out in GLFF to people who can't run instances as well.
    Another reason why this new loot system isn't that great =| Traditional loot system was much better imo. It (for the most part) garaunteed that someone walked out of the instance with a piece of loot that they actually needed, and not much went to waste.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by DavisBoz View Post
    Another reason why this new loot system isn't that great =| Traditional loot system was much better imo. It (for the most part) garaunteed that someone walked out of the instance with a piece of loot that they actually needed, and not much went to waste.
    I'd disagree, at least looking at remote looting as how it should be working (IE, drops from GB) vs how it usually works (lack of drops in Fornost).

    Traditional loot would come up with one, sometimes two pieces of gear for the entire group. If nobody in the group needed that piece of gear, it went to waste. On the other hand, some hunter may end up rolling and winning the Might-heavy axe that dropped. That wasn't really optimal either.
    With remote looting, it's true that sometimes no gear is dropped. However, other times you'll see each person in the group get something good. It should be balancing out. (I say should because something seems off, again because instances like Fornost have a habit of dropping nothing for everyone several times in a row, dropping one purple, and then going back to dropping nothing again.) Also, since they're not bound you're able to give/trade/sell them to others who do still need them.

    The annoying thing is primarily the fact that either the frequency of drops in some instances is intentionally set too low or something is bugged. Either way, forcing the instance to generate something solves both those problems. At that point, we'd have to wait and see if it would solve the other complaints that people have about it. I have a feeling it would, but I won't say it would for sure until I saw it in place.
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  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by TinDragon View Post
    I'd disagree, at least looking at remote looting as how it should be working (IE, drops from GB) vs how it usually works (lack of drops in Fornost).
    Touché. If only they would fix that then =|

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by TinDragon View Post
    Unfortunately traditional locks apparently don't play well with their scaling system. A large amount of the problem may lie in the fact that we also have remote looting now, whereas skirmishes don't support that feature. Even the skirmish "fake locks" aren't implemented that well though.
    Maybe this is why they need to make an entirely new instance system aka big battle? You guys think so?

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hiritier View Post
    Maybe this is why they need to make an entirely new instance system aka big battle? You guys think so?
    No, the scaling-lock issue isn't a driving factor I think, JW already said they don't plan with locks at this time. There are likely several reasons for this new system:
    - because as they said the "classic" IC system isn't good for implementing defensive battles (see Flight for a (bad) example)
    - to make content more "valuable". An instance that works with different group-sizes and basically all levels is more useful (for marketing at least) than a exactly-12-person instance for a specific level.
    - they needed some new reward mechanics that were tricky to implement with the classic IC system (still hope they'll fix the existing loot system with HD, else the last remnants of serious grouping in this game will die)
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  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Hiritier View Post
    Maybe this is why they need to make an entirely new instance system aka big battle? You guys think so?
    I'm with you! A new kind or instance, with more going on, I mean, like a REALLY BIG BATTLE!

    Seriously, Big Battles sound like they're going to have a nice barter system, unless we've been horribly misled. I'm ready to give it a shot.

  13. #13
    My kingdom for a multi-boss raid like the Rift

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by DavisBoz View Post
    3. Loot. This one is closely connected with suggestion #2. When you do the current 3/6/12 mans, its quite discouraging to open the chest at the end and mostly find bounties and relics. That just makes it seem like doing the instance was a waste of your time. This is where the barter system comes in. Putting SOMETHING in the chest that's worthwhile makes the disappointment not as great, and inspires the desire to want to do the instance again. I recently did a BG t2c at 85, and the only thing I got out of all 4 chests was a Tarnished Symbol of Celebrimbor (which I had no use for), and some bounties and relics. I think it's wrong that one should feel like they came out of a t2c with nothing but relics and bounties. Also, don't make teal items trade-able. That is just another way to defeat the purpose of doing instances/raids, when you can just go to the AH and buy some nice teal jewellery/gear.
    If you at least got a symbol you're way ahead of me, I only get bounties, relics and runes; oh, maybe 1 out of 10 times I get a purple item and that's about it.

  15. #15
    I do not want to start a new thread, so I hope i can get an answer here.

    I am just wondering that there are two expansion about Rohan and we have none instances about Rohan. Whats the reason for this? There are so nice places in Rohan which are really made for some instances, but no, nothing. Still sad... and no one, but turbine knows (i hope they do so) why it is like that...

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by ISS_21 View Post
    I am just wondering that there are two expansion about Rohan and we have none instances about Rohan. Whats the reason for this?
    Big Battles are the long awaited instances for Rohan. If you meant traditional Raid, Full Fellowship, and Small Fellowship instances, the developers decided to innovate instead of fulfilling traditional customer preferences.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by DavisBoz View Post
    I know turbine has already said there will be no new traditional instances or raids with Helm's Deep, but there are a few things I'd like to see with the ones they scale and the ones they plan to make in the future..

    1. LOCKS. Locks are your friend (even if it doesn't seem like it at times). Locks are a very good method of preventing farming (and when an instance is farmed too often, it quickly becomes boring/less fun. And bored players are unsatisfied customers). Even just a limit of doing the challenge on a 3/6 man once per day would help. A 1-2 day lock on the Erebor raids would have easily prevented the mass farming that occurred. Also, when scaling, don't break up the raid (i.e. Ost Dunhoth). That promotes farming of the easiest wing (not that anyone really does OD when they could simply do NCF or STH and hope for some golds). A t2c raid should have locks, and a player shouldn't be able to do it as many times as they want in one week's time.

    2. Some kind of barter system. Erebor Gems was okay, but since the gems were tradable and you only needed 9 to get both rings and your necklace, there was no point in continuing to do the raids after you had acquired all the ones you need (besides a FA symbol, but we all know it wasn't long before everyone had at least one of those). Turbine did well in the past with special drops from certain bosses that could be turned in for gear (i.e. Rift, Watcher, DN, OD) and with other prizes per boss chest, such as Moria/Lothlorien medallions, Orthanc sigil fragments, etc. which could be traded for jewellery and gear.

    3. Loot. This one is closely connected with suggestion #2. When you do the current 3/6/12 mans, its quite discouraging to open the chest at the end and mostly find bounties and relics. That just makes it seem like doing the instance was a waste of your time. This is where the barter system comes in. Putting SOMETHING in the chest that's worthwhile makes the disappointment not as great, and inspires the desire to want to do the instance again. I recently did a BG t2c at 85, and the only thing I got out of all 4 chests was a Tarnished Symbol of Celebrimbor (which I had no use for), and some bounties and relics. I think it's wrong that one should feel like they came out of a t2c with nothing but relics and bounties. Also, don't make teal items trade-able. That is just another way to defeat the purpose of doing instances/raids, when you can just go to the AH and buy some nice teal jewellery/gear.

    4. MULTI-BOSS RAIDS. This has more to do with future instances, since Turbine has scaled some multi-boss raids. But they are simply more fun than single-boss raids. With single-boss raids, you just go in, kill the boss (or trolls, or easterlings) and you're done. With multi-boss raids, you've got to clear trash along with 3+ bosses at least. It takes more time and thought, which to me (and I'm sure most raiders) is much more fun.

    So please Turbine, if you still care for the raiding community even a little, help us. Give us SOMETHING to work with. Please.
    I love your ideas for group content. I predict there will be those entering this thread who don't group who are going to flame this post instead of actually reading.

    And big battles is the finally nail in the raid coffin and maybe the 3 and 6 man content as well.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Minquinn View Post
    I love your ideas for group content. I predict there will be those entering this thread who don't group who are going to flame this post instead of actually reading.

    And big battles is the finally nail in the raid coffin and maybe the 3 and 6 man content as well.
    For some reason, people who don't raid are the people who are most active on raid centric threads. To flame of course... I guess that's even more fun than picking apples in the game.

    Tiny battles is a nail in lots of coffins. Coffins they thought were untouchable...

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by TinDragon View Post
    I'd disagree, at least looking at remote looting as how it should be working (IE, drops from GB) vs how it usually works (lack of drops in Fornost).

    Traditional loot would come up with one, sometimes two pieces of gear for the entire group. If nobody in the group needed that piece of gear, it went to waste. On the other hand, some hunter may end up rolling and winning the Might-heavy axe that dropped. That wasn't really optimal either.
    With remote looting, it's true that sometimes no gear is dropped. However, other times you'll see each person in the group get something good. It should be balancing out. (I say should because something seems off, again because instances like Fornost have a habit of dropping nothing for everyone several times in a row, dropping one purple, and then going back to dropping nothing again.) Also, since they're not bound you're able to give/trade/sell them to others who do still need them.

    The annoying thing is primarily the fact that either the frequency of drops in some instances is intentionally set too low or something is bugged. Either way, forcing the instance to generate something solves both those problems. At that point, we'd have to wait and see if it would solve the other complaints that people have about it. I have a feeling it would, but I won't say it would for sure until I saw it in place.
    About the loot. See I play a Guardian. New game is roll one and see how many instances you gotta run to get a usable tank item to drop.
    The time between Skraids and update 11 I won 1 teal piece of usable tank loot from every thing I ran. The rest I had to spend gold to get on the AH when the prices finally dropped. And how is it that the only ones winning the Warg Pens tanking wrist are cappies and champs? lol

    Unless they simply want to fix the loot system and give me something other than items with fate and tactical mastery on them. That would be acceptable. The latest loot system was lame. I had no problem getting my skraid jewelry by simply rolling on it. Now I might be just given loot that is not even class appropriate.

  20. #20
    The worst part about the latest instance cluster was definately the loot system. Since raidlocks apparently don't work at all with scaled instances, and the lack of raidlocks is what makes a random loot system horrible, I would like to see the following:

    Keep the scaled raids in the game, but put the max scaled level at 94. This can have remote-looting, give marks and meds and maybe even seals, and make it drop purple gear superior to crafted gear, with a very low chance for teal gear. Maybe Symbols of Celebrimbor could rarely drop from these as well.
    Then have a version of the same raid at lvl 95 only, with raidlocks. This can have all the good old stuff with tiers and challenges, and the old looting system, including some barter currency like seals or the erebor gems.
    These raids can once again have guaranteed drops, since they cannot be farmed.
    Symbols of Celebrimbor and the same teal gear as in the scaled version should drop more frequently than in the scaled raid on tier 1.
    Tier 2 drops gear superior to tier 1 and should start dropping Symbols of the Elder King when new raid clusters are released, or immediately if there are no plans for that.
    Challenge mode should then drop the best gear in the game (obviously).

    I also think they should not put raid quality gear in something like Hytbold again. Raid gear should come from raiding, and soloers don't need it anyway.
    Would be even nicer if the scaled raids gave an equal amount of experience to questing, so there is actually an alternative for people who don't really like solo content (or is that just me ).
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  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kortaan View Post
    Challenge mode should then drop the best gear in the game (obviously).
    Not nearly as "obvious" as you think it is. The point has been debated--or shouted over, take your pick--extensively. Bringing it up here is probably a shortcut to getting the thread closed.

    I also think they should not put raid quality gear in something like Hytbold again. Raid gear should come from raiding, and soloers don't need it anyway.
    Again, these points are debatable. It is quite easy to argue that raiders don't *need* special armor, either, for all that both soloers and raiders *want* top grade gear.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by whheydt View Post
    Not nearly as "obvious" as you think it is. The point has been debated--or shouted over, take your pick--extensively. Bringing it up here is probably a shortcut to getting the thread closed.



    Again, these points are debatable. It is quite easy to argue that raiders don't *need* special armor, either, for all that both soloers and raiders *want* top grade gear.
    Just when you thought this argument had become stale. It rears it's ugly head.

  23. #23
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    Well im a massive group content fan (namely raids/6-man/3-man) and love to level and start to play end-game content.....and this wont change with HD. The one thing that will disappoint me is the lack of new instances/raids. Im also skeptical as to whether the new big battle system will fill that void....am i correct in assuming theres only 1 'big battle' with HD (namely HD battle itself)...if this is so turbine are once again short changing everyone on end-game group content. I mean what other mmo does this?...NONE, theres no other mmos that actively encourage people to play solo (i.e the hytbold/wildermore grind).

    I wont be pre-ordering HD before i try it out on bullroarer (i didnt get an invite to the beta, so ill wait), and if the end-game is as bad as i expect....im not buying and will leave the game for good.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minquinn View Post
    Just when you thought this argument had become stale. It rears it's ugly head.
    Take it up with Kortaan, then.

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by pvdtheking View Post
    Well im a massive group content fan (namely raids/6-man/3-man) and love to level and start to play end-game content.....and this wont change with HD. The one thing that will disappoint me is the lack of new instances/raids. Im also skeptical as to whether the new big battle system will fill that void....am i correct in assuming theres only 1 'big battle' with HD (namely HD battle itself)...if this is so turbine are once again short changing everyone on end-game group content. I mean what other mmo does this?...NONE, theres no other mmos that actively encourage people to play solo (i.e the hytbold/wildermore grind).

    I wont be pre-ordering HD before i try it out on bullroarer (i didnt get an invite to the beta, so ill wait), and if the end-game is as bad as i expect....im not buying and will leave the game for good.
    Sapience said 5 Big Battles. Considering all the complaints from many people (myself included) about the lack of information in HD, I have found that reading every bit of info has been valuable.

    I'm getting really tired of the doom and gloom chicken little nonsense. This sentence is not aimed at just you.

 

 
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