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  1. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sapience View Post
    They were shifted long before MC came along.
    Back during the days of when we first experienced lag (and invulnerability) on zone lines, right? I want to say, Book 7 or Book 8 of Vol 2.

  2. #27
    Sapience is offline Former Community Manager & Harbinger of Soon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thorcar View Post
    Your comment about the leaderboards is only half true. People may not have been using it on the LOTRO site but they were on the Black Appendage site because they cut and displayed the data in a more useful format. If you want a truer idea of the amount of people who were actually viewing total leaderboard data, I am sure the Black Appendage people can provide you with their usage information.
    Actually my statement was entirely accurate based on the information we track about our leader boards and data.lotro.com. If the other site was repackaging things obviously we can't track that it is basically a blackhole to us. Also, just looking at populations and play styles it still would have been near the bottom. Though nowhere near as far down as skirmish leader boards.

    Quote Originally Posted by whheydt View Post
    Speaking of which... I noticed the few (2? 3?) lotteries last week. I presume that those were, basically, tests to make sure they worked. Is there anything you can share about timing for when the lotteries will be back on something resembling a "normal" schedule?
    Yes. So here's a funny story. Lotteries were never meant to have 'normal' schedules. That was originally a load testing method so the network guys could figure out what kinds of load to expect. It just never went away.

    That said, some kind of semi-regular lotteries will probably come back (though not the static ones like before) on Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays. But then again I wouldn't say never.


    Is there anything you're getting back that would point to settings or configuration changes that players can do to their own systems (that you can tell us about) that would help?
    Other than some upgrades that most would argue shouldn't help (and I'm not saying you'd be wrong) but do help? Ditch Windows XP and Vista, Go to Win7 or 8 64 Bit (avoid 32bit). Throw more RAM at it and bump up the video card. All this will help (and is why we suspect we have outgrown our stated system specs), but there is no 'throw this switch' solution. Which is why we know there is something up with the client itself and why we suspect that it's probably both client and system spec not just one or the other.

    No kidding. From the "lag" standpoint, the new forums have made a world of difference. There are still some "tweaks" that could be usefully made, but the major stuff is vastly better.
    Some of them are probably things people just need to accept aren't coming back. You aren't getting a 'keep me logged in' option. You aren't likely to get more than the 45 minute inactivity timer(if you did you're looking at 60. Maybe). You aren't going to get username/PW divorced from your game logins. You aren't getting leaderboards back. You aren't getting character pages back. The lorebook is a non-starter. These are things I won't even fight for because I know they won't happen and I'd rather try to make the case for things I know can change (even if they may take a lot of time). Any skinning revisions are going to be a long time coming, if at all.

    Things I know should be going live in the next couple of days...maybe even tomorrow.

    • Can view active lotteries even when not logged in.
    • Better feedback/confirmation when entering a lottery (still not awesome, but better).
    • A number of CSS and other formatting changes to the lottery pages to make them a little easier to deal with/read.

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sapience View Post
    You aren't getting a 'keep me logged in' option. You aren't likely to get more than the 45 minute inactivity timer(if you did you're looking at 60. Maybe).
    Can you least explain why? This cannot be something corporate overlords are deeply invested in, it's just too minor (to them, not to those of us who come back to a logged out session 5X a day ). So what is it, exactly? That decision properly belongs with the customer, based on how secure their playing environment is. If they're playing on a public computer in an internet cafe, sure, it would be awful to have "Remember Me" enabled. A whole lot of us play exclusively at home, though, and many of us are the only people who use these computers.

    I was reading some vBulletin admin forums to try and understand this, and some of those folks were saying things like "Our 'Who's Online' list doesn't work properly with long inactivity timeouts... if someone closes their browser instead of logging out, we don't see them as Offline until it expires".

    Please tell me that isn't the reason. We don't even get to see that page on these forums, and to be blunt about it... we really don't care a whole lot if a couple of Turbine community relations people can't see an up-to-date "Who's online" page. We do care about this obnoxious timeout that impacts every single forum poster.

    Khafar

  4. #29
    Sapience is offline Former Community Manager & Harbinger of Soon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khafar View Post
    Can you least explain why? This cannot be something corporate overlords are deeply invested in, it's just too minor (to them, not to those of us who come back to a logged out session 5X a day ). So what is it, exactly? That decision properly belongs with the customer.

    I was reading some vBulletin admin forums to try and understand this, and some of those folks were saying things like "Our 'Who's Online' list doesn't work properly with long cookie timeouts... if someone closes their browser instead of logging out, we don't see them as Offline until it expires".

    Please tell me that isn't the reason. We don't even get to see that page on these forums, and to be blunt about it... we really don't care a whole lot if a couple of Turbine community relations people can't see an up-to-date "Who's online" page. We do care about this obnoxious timeout.

    Khafar
    It was a decision made above my pay grade. You are beating a dead horse in every imaginable way with this.

    It has absolutely nothing to do with what you mentioned, for whatever that is worth.

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sapience View Post
    It was a decision made above my pay grade. You are beating a dead horse in every imaginable way with this.
    That's... beyond bizarre. Why on earth would even your direct boss care about this so much? Why would anyone above him or her care? It's absolutely infuriating to be told such a trivial configuration change simply will not be done, no matter how much your customers hate it.

    I can come up with some browser hack to get around this nonsense, but most people cannot. If whatever I do come up with is easy to distribute though, fair warning... I'll be posting it on another web site so everyone who wants to can tell whoever it is above your pay grade making this decision to go jump in a lake.

    Khafar

  6. #31
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    Fix creep side please, you are loosing players because freeps are op oh and give creeps free p2w stuffs. Ie hobbit gifts. Way to ruin pvmp. Sapience . Way to ruin the game for most full time creep players
    [url=http://www.sigcreator.com/][img]http://www.sigcreator.com/generatedsigs/17322151200lotro_lotro07.png[/img][/url]

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by whiteavenger View Post
    So you took our leader board away that most all of us used and enjoyed, using the excuse that this would help in lag issues, an for my part and everyone I have talked to the lag issue has increased, and now we have no valuable leader board. Why not admit you screwed up and return a tool that most people used.
    Honestly the leaderboards, for the most part, were useless anymore anyway.

    With rank farming, renown/infamy bonuses, etc. - store bought or otherwise - of up to 300% or more, it's easier than ever to obtain rank.

    And with rampant rank farming, it made the leaderboards even more useless. On our server we had a farmer go from Rank 0 to Rank 10 within a few hours by farming Reavers. This put him at the top of the list for that particular day. Was this fair to the other players that have been in the Ettenmoors for years? I think not.

    Furthermore, it had become a resource, much like the character profiles, for abuse for websites like AltFinder and LOTRO Companion constantly probing the information for updates. It had also become a resource for in-game abuse as well where players were calling other players cheaters or "spies" because they happened to have an alt on the opposing side.

    And don't even get me started on the privacy issues.

    Honestly, I am happy to see them go. I told Turbine from the get-go that they would have nothing but problems with them, and that they did.

    For the record, though, I am experiencing none of the issues that I was before, other than the annoyance of having to log in every 45 minutes...

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sapience View Post
    It was a decision made above my pay grade. You are beating a dead horse in every imaginable way with this.

    It has absolutely nothing to do with what you mentioned, for whatever that is worth.
    If anything, the information could/should be passed on to the powers that be. Turbine does change their minds on occasion.

    (Honestly, I'm not sure why they decided on such drastic security measures myself...perhaps they had a lot of accounts that were being hacked, who knows?)

  9. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khafar View Post
    That's... beyond bizarre. Why on earth would even your direct boss care about this so much? Why would anyone above him or her care? It's absolutely infuriating to be told such a trivial configuration change simply will not be done, no matter how much your customers hate it.

    I can come up with some browser hack to get around this nonsense, but most people cannot. If whatever I do come up with is easy to distribute though, fair warning... I'll be posting it on another web site so everyone who wants to can tell whoever it is above your pay grade making this decision to go jump in a lake.

    Khafar
    No idea if this is it at all, but I always assumed it had something to do with the account you login with being a Turbine account, not just a stock standard vBulletin account.
    Presumably they have to go across systems to authenticate, and there's no long term persistent token / something vBulletin can use to "remember me".

  10. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by turialus View Post
    Fix creep side please, you are loosing players because freeps are op oh and give creeps free p2w stuffs. Ie hobbit gifts. Way to ruin pvmp. Sapience . Way to ruin the game for most full time creep players
    Sapience has nothing to do with PvP, so I really don't think he "ruined" it.

    FWIW, we have the exact opposite argument on our server.

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elderban View Post

    (Honestly, I'm not sure why they decided on such drastic security measures myself...perhaps they had a lot of accounts that were being hacked, who knows?)

    What it boils down to is, It is going to save Lotro allot of money in the long run. getting ride of what they got ride of probably saved them up-words of $250,000 a year or more.
    I run a MMO forum and I have 180,000 members active members, It cost me an avg of $3800.00 a month in bandwidth. If I had to pay my mods like turbine does it would cost me allot more
    People think this site is free, in fact it still cost turbine a great deal of time and money just to deal with a bunch of endless people posting. Everything they cut out of the forums frees up
    resources for the game. To be honest if it was me I would make it so the forums over time would disappear.

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sapience View Post
    They were shifted long before MC came along.
    Some good information here Sapience, your willingness to discuss is appreciated.

    Any discussion or thoughts on the implication Mounted Combat has on lag - meaning is there another type of lag that is purely related to the speed at which these new mounts travel? I know many (including myself) have great performance on foot, but all sorts of issues while on a war-steed.
    Anawyne - 85 Warden, Iothelion - 69 Captain, Iothryth - 65 Minstral, Carawaru - 50s Champion
    [URL="http://docholidaymmo.com/"]DocHoliday[/URL] has blogged off/on mainly on Wardens

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by tehdanish View Post
    No idea if this is it at all...
    Nah. The old forums had a "Remember Me" checkbox, and they were vBulletin too. They had to deliberately configure it to take that away, and to set the inactivity logout at 45 minutes. Neither are default settings.

    I doubt they'd confirm this if true, but one other idea occurred to me... perhaps they've had trouble with people getting their accounts hacked via perma-logged forums somehow. I could speculate, but I won't. If that were the case, it would be a black eye for the "Forum Login = Game Login" strategy, and I wouldn't want to discuss that in public either.

    Khafar

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erus2 View Post
    What it boils down to is, It is going to save Lotro allot of money in the long run. getting ride of what they got ride of probably saved them up-words of $250,000 a year or more.
    I run a MMO forum and I have 180,000 members active members, It cost me an avg of $3800.00 a month in bandwidth. If I had to pay my mods like turbine does it would cost me allot more
    People think this site is free, in fact it still cost turbine a great deal of time and money just to deal with a bunch of endless people posting. Everything they cut out of the forums frees up
    resources for the game. To be honest if it was me I would make it so the forums over time would disappear.
    $3,800.00 a month? Sounds like you need a new provider. How much bandwidth does the site use every month, if I might ask? I run a website that does ~2TB of traffic a month, but I have a 5TB limit. However I don't pay anywhere near that much.

    On topic, though, I doubt the forums here even did a few GB in traffic every month....aside from the sites that were leeching the information, that is.

  15. #40
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    Angry

    A few things i want to say:
    -Lag in Ettenmoors. You say it's client side, but if once every 5-10 minutes everyone in the raid says on the same moment "Oh damn, lag spike" or "****ing lag again" etc, how is this client side? Personally i have a great pc, and lotro isn't that demanding for pc's at all.
    -New forums "remember me" should return.
    -I want to login from http://www.lotro.com/forums, currently i have to press the big banner and then click on Login on top to login, i don't want to go through all of this.
    -I want custom avatars like the old forums.

  16. #41
    one thing from my experience to add about the lag and rubberbanding, my ISP does have some affect on it, all last week i had my internet jumping in speeds and stopping every few minutes. Sometimes i lose connection all together and then 5 seconds later it will be normal only to falter again in a minute. That whole time my internet was not working correctly i had a LOT of lag happening. Which i would blame mostly on my internet.


    But now that my internet seemed to level out and be normal now, since comcast has told me they are not experiencing anymore problems, the lag and rubberbanding has diminished quite a bit to a "playable level". It's still a problem for me here and there. I have a high end computer even putting the game on lower settings i still get those issues so for me the problem isnt my computer and i would rule out my internet connection leaving me with the client -> lotro connection itself.
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  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by DutchEZmoder View Post
    -Lag in Ettenmoors. You say it's client side, but if...everyone in the raid says on the same moment "Oh damn, lag spike"...how is this client side?
    Client side is ANYthing on your computer, right? Including...the software Turbine put there when you asked them to download/update the game. In other words, if Turbine has something in their game software, the software residing on OUR clients, that says, "do X when you get Y from the server" ... and we all have that same little line of code ... and the X-Y relationship causes a lag spike ... that means everyone in the raid could get the same lag spike at the same time, even though the lag is literally happening on all our computers independently. Make more sense now?

    It's easy too see Sapience or other Turbine Team members say, "it might be on client side," and THINK that means they're blaming us and absolving themselves of responsibility. That's not what they're saying at all, often.

  18. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Khafar View Post
    Nah. The old forums had a "Remember Me" checkbox, and they were vBulletin too. They had to deliberately configure it to take that away, and to set the inactivity logout at 45 minutes. Neither are default settings.

    I doubt they'd confirm this if true, but one other idea occurred to me... perhaps they've had trouble with people getting their accounts hacked via perma-logged forums somehow. I could speculate, but I won't. If that were the case, it would be a black eye for the "Forum Login = Game Login" strategy, and I wouldn't want to discuss that in public either.

    Khafar
    I don't know about you, but that never worked for me.. I assumed the button wasn't wired to anything (for the same reasons as I stated above).

  19. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sapience View Post
    Other than some upgrades that most would argue shouldn't help (and I'm not saying you'd be wrong) but do help? Ditch Windows XP and Vista, Go to Win7 or 8 64 Bit (avoid 32bit). Throw more RAM at it and bump up the video card. All this will help (and is why we suspect we have outgrown our stated system specs), but there is no 'throw this switch' solution. Which is why we know there is something up with the client itself and why we suspect that it's probably both client and system spec not just one or the other.
    Testify! I changed nothing about my computer other than upgrading from Windows XP 32bit to Windows 7 64bit and the game got so much more playable. I was crashing on zone-through to Tower of Orthanc and having severe performance issues all throughout Rohan and once I upgraded that all went away. I had/have a very good graphics card, it was the OS that was messing with my game.
    Narlinde, level 100 Minstrel, Rank 11, Member of Trucido ~ Windfola

  20. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Khafar View Post
    Can you least explain why? This cannot be something corporate overlords are deeply invested in, it's just too minor (to them, not to those of us who come back to a logged out session 5X a day ). So what is it, exactly?
    Where I work this kind of decision are made by the Vice President of Corporate Security. They tend to be draconian decisions for which there are no exceptions. It does not matter what I think. I does not matter what my director thinks.

    This guy is virtually untouchable because the only people you can appeal is the CFO (his boss), CEO or the board. None of the people that operate at this level get involved in these kind of decisions unless it directly impacts their work.

    In order to justify his existence he has to find a dragon periodically, kill it and drag it out for public viewing. Dragon is a weakness in one of our system, violation of the rules or a successful penetration(hack) of our defenses. We have to obey because the consequence of disobedience is to be labeled a Dragon - we dragged out and killed - where kill is job loss with no appeal.

    We think very hard about what battles we want to attempt to fight with this guy and his eyes and ears that watch everything we do.

    I have no idea how companies have these kind of people. I've run afoul of them at several companies that I have worked. Generally they do not like software development because we do not the approved templates and applications for our PCs and servers. We have a lot of alpha and beta test software. Not only internal unapproved software applications but partner company unapproved software applications.

    Some of the rules drive us crazy. Like never leave any documentation on your desk or your PC unlocked when you walk off. Everything has to be put away and locked up. We are allowed to leave out coffee cups, Human Resources documents ... A design document - they go nuts. He has people that will catch you pretty quick if you break these rules.
    Last edited by Yula_the_Mighty; Aug 13 2013 at 08:16 PM.
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  21. #46
    Sapience is offline Former Community Manager & Harbinger of Soon
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    Quote Originally Posted by DutchEZmoder View Post
    A few things i want to say:
    -Lag in Ettenmoors. You say it's client side, but if once every 5-10 minutes everyone in the raid says on the same moment "Oh damn, lag spike" or "****ing lag again" etc, how is this client side? Personally i have a great pc, and lotro isn't that demanding for pc's at all.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angadan View Post
    Client side is ANYthing on your computer, right? Including...the software Turbine put there when you asked them to download/update the game. In other words, if Turbine has something in their game software, the software residing on OUR clients, that says, "do X when you get Y from the server" ... and we all have that same little line of code ... and the X-Y relationship causes a lag spike ... that means everyone in the raid could get the same lag spike at the same time, even though the lag is literally happening on all our computers independently. Make more sense now?

    It's easy too see Sapience or other Turbine Team members say, "it might be on client side," and THINK that means they're blaming us and absolving themselves of responsibility. That's not what they're saying at all, often.
    As Angadan pointed out, what I said was the client. Which is the software that actually runs on your computer. So what you describe is perfectly in keeping with what I said. Network synchronization plays a huge role here and so does the code controlling it and the tolerances involved. So yes it can be 100% "on your pc" without it being your PC.

  22. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sapience View Post
    what I said was the client. Which is the software that actually runs on your computer.
    Oh, I always thought of the "client" as the computer (my computer, any player's computer). I guess I thought that because it mirrored "server" and "client" better. Both being hardware, an actual physical box, you know. But it appears that in Turbine terminology (which may be common to most/all other computer gaming companies too?), "client" is shrink-wrapped to refer specifically and only to the software of the game that resides on players' computers. That's very interesting, and clears up a lot of miscommunication between players and Turbine Team over the past couple of years.

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sapience View Post
    Other than some upgrades that most would argue shouldn't help (and I'm not saying you'd be wrong) but do help? Ditch Windows XP and Vista, Go to Win7 or 8 64 Bit (avoid 32bit). Throw more RAM at it and bump up the video card. All this will help (and is why we suspect we have outgrown our stated system specs), but there is no 'throw this switch' solution. Which is why we know there is something up with the client itself and why we suspect that it's probably both client and system spec not just one or the other.
    This is an interesting suggestion. I play on a rather old PC with XP Pro and I have less lag and performance than others with new, top of the line machines running Win 7 or 8. In fact most of the time I experience no lag at all. I run on medium settings (but with full draw distance), no shadows, and I turn off floating names when performance begins to degrade. It actually frightens me to think you guys may no longer support XP and force me to upgrade to something that WILL degrade my performance, based on what others are experiencing.

  24. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sapience View Post
    We do suspect that some of what players are reporting as lag is hardware based.
    I completely believe this. Me, being a computer noob, had no idea about picking up a computer and bought a PC. I lag in lots of instances (not always the newest ones), in mounted combat and in general in the Rohan areas, running in medium settings, with a lot of effects disabled (reflections, shadows, lightning, etc). I blamed the lag (of course, I think there are some internet/server side issues, but not all of the issues are there).

    Now I'm moving to a new house, so I don't have enough time to play and since I'm moving, I can only use my laptop for that. Laptop is 1 year older than the PC (being 2 years old now), but my brother (who is a computer engineer) choose the laptop knowing that I'm a little of a gamer. Now in this computer (the laptop) I RARELY have lag. Now the deal breaker... I realized that I have lotro running on best settings on EVERYTHING. Of course, the laptop has better ram, better graphic card and what not, even if it is older...

    So yeah, maybe not all performance problems are due to the computer you use to play, but it can affect greatly the performance of the game.

  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sapience View Post
    As Angadan pointed out, what I said was the client. Which is the software that actually runs on your computer. So what you describe is perfectly in keeping with what I said. Network synchronization plays a huge role here and so does the code controlling it and the tolerances involved. So yes it can be 100% "on your pc" without it being your PC.
    Unfortunately we'll never know if the issues are server side because we cannot view the activity on the servers and I'm sure no one at Turbine will allow us to view server loads when there are large groups of people in one location.

    But, I think it is a combination of things, myself.

    Anytime the number of people in an area increases, so does the consumption of bandwidth, on both ends. For example, go to a low-population area and mouse over the connection icon...the numbers should be fairly low, but if you do the same thing in a high-population area, you'll see that your bandwidth will increase sometimes tenfold. So, if the end user has a small pipe (say DSL or low-end cable) then they are going to experience lag issues.

    Another issue is the engine. Turbine's engine is a bit antiquated, and it's not really made for large gatherings of people (players or NPC's). For example, if I go head to head with a raid of creeps in the Ettenmoors, the engine (server or client side) is going to choke. If I do the same thing playing PvP in other games like GW2 or SWTOR, I rarely see these issues. So this tells me that it is an engine issue as well.

    And, finally, there's the end user. Every player has a different kind of system. Not everyone runs top-end hardware with 8-12GB of ram or more, so they are going to run into issues as well.

 

 
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