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  1. #1

    Why....You screwed up.

    So you took our leader board away that most all of us used and enjoyed, using the excuse that this would help in lag issues, an for my part and everyone I have talked to the lag issue has increased, and now we have no valuable leader board. Why not admit you screwed up and return a tool that most people used.

  2. #2
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    Define "most".
    TANSTAAFL

  3. #3
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    Hmm. They remove several key features from the forums and strangely the lag has increased for you and a couple friends? Please excuse me if I don't take your words as gospel!

    On the topic of removing Leaderboards. The changes to the forums have been outlined for months now, since May I think. Sapience has posted what was going to be removed and Leaderboards were on that list, it's nothing new.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by whiteavenger View Post
    Why not admit you screwed up and return a tool that most people used.
    Sapience said that regular PvMP players are in the single digits as a percentage of all players. So while it's possible that "most PvMP players" used the leaderboards, that could still only account for a tiny percentage of the people playing. I seriously doubt the skirmish leaderboards were used even that often.

    Basically, pulling character data was putting too large of a load on that database, which is why it was so often out of date. Sometimes by weeks or even months. With the move to the new forums, they shut it down (along with nearly every other feature which required character data, like character signatures on the forums or character sheets/inventory on MyLOTRO).

    Khafar

  5. #5
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    Since the new forums I haven't noticed any server performance degradation. In fact I haven't really experienced noticeable lag like the TS is saying. Ran some 6-man's and warband raids everyday, and things seem pretty good.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by whiteavenger View Post
    So you took our leader board away that most all of us used and enjoyed, using the excuse that this would help in lag issues, an for my part and everyone I have talked to the lag issue has increased, and now we have no valuable leader board. Why not admit you screwed up and return a tool that most people used.
    I haven't seen these forums lag at all since the new ones were launched.

  7. #7
    Define "most". I for one never once looked at the leaderboards and I have been playing since Jan 2008. And the new forums are performing far better than the old ones.

  8. #8
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    I never so much as looked at the leaderboards.

    Mind, I only ever experienced lag once whilst playing the game, and that was due to a server hiccup.

  9. #9
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    Even as someone who PvPs fairly often, I rarely used the leaderboards. And to be honest I suspect they were mostly used for ego trips and pointing fingers at people for farming(considering data can be interpreted numerous different ways, this created more problems than it solved IMO).
    [LEFT][COLOR=#ffffff]Morlenil Barkolomew Turmuz Shurz Gruubluk

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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyrion View Post
    Even as someone who PvPs fairly often, I rarely used the leaderboards. And to be honest I suspect they were mostly used for ego trips and pointing fingers at people for farming(considering data can be interpreted numerous different ways, this created more problems than it solved IMO).

    ^^ Agree completely Nyrion. I'm a "casual" PvMPer (hunter, freep-only) who has gradually achieved rank 10 over the years. While I can understand that some of the more hard-core PvMP fans will be upset, I guess you will just have to PvMP for the in-game experience now of battle to battle.
    other favorite middle-earth games: The One Ring RPG by Cubicle 7; LotR: The Card Game by FFG; Hobbit/LotR Strategy Battle Game by GW

  11. #11
    Sapience is offline Former Community Manager & Harbinger of Soon
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    Quote Originally Posted by whiteavenger View Post
    So you took our leader board away that most all of us used and enjoyed, using the excuse that this would help in lag issues, an for my part and everyone I have talked to the lag issue has increased, and now we have no valuable leader board. Why not admit you screwed up and return a tool that most people used.
    Most people didn't use the leaderboards. The thing people used the most were the Lotteries (which is why I was able to make a case to save them). No other my.lotro.com resource was used nearly as much (we're talking orders of magnitude). Forums were next, Lorebook a very distant third, then character pages (a very, very distant 4th behind the lorebook). Leaderboards were only slightly more used than Blogs.

    With the monitoring code we put into the game with Update 11.1 and 11.2 we know what the status of the lag is for the vast majority of players (your client tell us now) and it has dropped somewhat since 11.1. Though there are a few things we know the cause of now (thanks to the reporting code) and are working on a fix.

    Considering the use of the forums has increased nearly 30% since we changed everything and forum performance has increased dramatically (I haven't seen anyone complain they were laggy), I'd say that's the exact opposite of what you're suggesting.

  12. #12
    Ouch...lag has dropped some since 11.1?

    I'm not sure if it is due to the extreme nature of the situation, but it has not appeared to be less in the Moors with the big fights since 11.1. I'm really hoping the 'fix' helps reduce it out there. Been rather unplayable on many nights in raid situations.
    Leafblade, Captain
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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sapience View Post
    Most people didn't use the leaderboards. The thing people used the most were the Lotteries (which is why I was able to make a case to save them). No other my.lotro.com resource was used nearly as much (we're talking orders of magnitude). Forums were next, Lorebook a very distant third, then character pages (a very, very distant 4th behind the lorebook). Leaderboards were only slightly more used than Blogs.

    With the monitoring code we put into the game with Update 11.1 and 11.2 we know what the status of the lag is for the vast majority of players (your client tell us now) and it has dropped somewhat since 11.1. Though there are a few things we know the cause of now (thanks to the reporting code) and are working on a fix.

    Considering the use of the forums has increased nearly 30% since we changed everything and forum performance has increased dramatically (I haven't seen anyone complain they were laggy), I'd say that's the exact opposite of what you're suggesting.
    The forum improvement by far outstrips any value the leaderboards provided. I, and others I'm sure, would be very interested to know details about "what the status of the lag is for the vast majority of players". What is causing the lag (skill lock and rubber banding) in the moors when large numbers come together that we didn't experience prior to U5?

  14. #14
    Sapience is offline Former Community Manager & Harbinger of Soon
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    Quote Originally Posted by ColorSpecs View Post
    The forum improvement by far outstrips any value the leaderboards provided. I, and others I'm sure, would be very interested to know details about "what the status of the lag is for the vast majority of players". What is causing the lag (skill lock and rubber banding) in the moors when large numbers come together that we didn't experience prior to U5?

    Not what you expect and not what you want to hear. Would be my answers.

    Ping times, unless you have truly insane pings (300+) have nothing to do with it it turns out (yes we were just as surprised as you are). If your pings went from say 90 to 190, then you (regardless of what you may think) aren't having any meaningfully negative impact on your game play simply because of how the game functions (yes even in the moors and in raids). You don't have to believe it, but that's the blunt truth.

    Client side issue are the primary cause (we're adding more data collection in a future update along with some fixes from what we've already learned), but don't take that as were 'blaming' players. It's in the client. We're trying to figure out where. Thus the continued focus adding measurement tools.

    We do suspect that some of what players are reporting as lag is hardware based. That's why we're reviewing our minimum and recommended specs to see whether or not they are realistic considering the changes in demands on the client that started going into the game as early as Moria and they were compounded with DX10 and DX11 support and with Rohan and Mounted combat. There is some concern that the existing min spec really isn't sufficient to run the game at a level that's enjoyable and that some of the reports of 'lag' are really issues of poor performance due to hardware not being up to the task.

  15. #15
    Sapience is offline Former Community Manager & Harbinger of Soon
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyrion View Post
    Even as someone who PvPs fairly often, I rarely used the leaderboards. And to be honest I suspect they were mostly used for ego trips and pointing fingers at people for farming(considering data can be interpreted numerous different ways, this created more problems than it solved IMO).

    What you just said was pretty much the very loud argument and outcry against leaderboards when we added them.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sapience View Post
    Not what you expect and not what you want to hear. Would be my answers.

    Ping times, unless you have truly insane pings (300+) have nothing to do with it it turns out (yes we were just as surprised as you are). If your pings went from say 90 to 190, then you (regardless of what you may think) aren't having any meaningfully negative impact on your game play simply because of how the game functions (yes even in the moors and in raids). You don't have to believe it, but that's the blunt truth.

    Client side issue are the primary cause (we're adding more data collection in a future update along with some fixes from what we've already learned), but don't take that as were 'blaming' players. It's in the client. We're trying to figure out where. Thus the continued focus adding measurement tools.
    Actually, I totally believe that it is client side. I've long suspected that whatever tech you introduced into the client to pave the way for MC ahead of ROR's release is what caused this. It just doesn't make sense that if it were a phenomenon that affected players from all over the world simultaneously that it would be an internet issue (at least unless the issue was on Turbine's end, which I think you would've fixed by now had it been the case - assuming you'd be granted the funding to fix it.)

    We do suspect that some of what players are reporting as lag is hardware based. That's why we're reviewing our minimum and recommended specs to see whether or not they are realistic considering the changes in demands on the client that started going into the game as early as Moria and they were compounded with DX10 and DX11 support and with Rohan and Mounted combat. There is some concern that the existing min spec really isn't sufficient to run the game at a level that's enjoyable and that some of the reports of 'lag' are really issues of poor performance due to hardware not being up to the task.
    I was thinking the same thing. But again there are players with really hot machines playing the game experiencing the same lag at the same time in the same place as players like me with more average machines. So unless you've out-specced yourselves, which I doubt (and hope not, cause that's an even bigger problem, I would think), then this isn't the case.

    Gotta be something you guys loaded in in U5.

  17. #17
    Sapience is offline Former Community Manager & Harbinger of Soon
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    Quote Originally Posted by ColorSpecs View Post
    I was thinking the same thing. But again there are players with really hot machines playing the game experiencing the same lag at the same time in the same place as players like me with more average machines. So unless you've out-specced yourselves, which I doubt (and hope not, cause that's an even bigger problem, I would think), then this isn't the case.

    Gotta be something you guys loaded in in U5.
    The prevailing thought at the moment is that it's actually both.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sapience View Post
    The prevailing thought at the moment is that it's actually both.
    So then just remove MC or limit it to instances only and clear up the lag, right?

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by ColorSpecs View Post
    But again there are players with really hot machines playing the game experiencing the same lag at the same time in the same place as players like me with more average machines.
    I hope this is understood. There's always variance, of course. But when the fights bog down in the Moors, it's not a few operating a minute behind and others advancing as if nothing were wrong (I've seen this often in PVE raids and occasionally in PVP). It is an entire raid dealing with a generally unplayable lag. Within that unplayability there is either 5 second skill lag, 10 second skill lag, getting disconnected, etc.
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  20. #20
    Sapience is offline Former Community Manager & Harbinger of Soon
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    Quote Originally Posted by staveisle View Post
    I hope this is understood. There's always variance, of course. But when the fights bog down in the Moors, it's not a few operating a minute behind and others advancing as if nothing were wrong (I've seen this often in PVE raids and occasionally in PVP). It is an entire raid dealing with a generally unplayable lag. Within that unplayability there is either 5 second skill lag, 10 second skill lag, getting disconnected, etc.
    It is understood. Just as clearly as it is understood that there are players with top end machines who report very rare or no lag in the same situations. That's why we believe it to be both of the issues I mentioned.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by staveisle View Post
    I hope this is understood. There's always variance, of course. But when the fights bog down in the Moors, it's not a few operating a minute behind and others advancing as if nothing were wrong (I've seen this often in PVE raids and occasionally in PVP). It is an entire raid dealing with a generally unplayable lag. Within that unplayability there is either 5 second skill lag, 10 second skill lag, getting disconnected, etc.
    It probably is both if you think about it. Agreed totally that its unplayable affecting everyone, but it does seem that while everyone is negatively affected some will be more than others. Like, everyone gets skill lock but some folks it will be 10 seconds, others 8 seconds. All are rubberbanding, some are doing it worse or more often than others.

    So it could be a an error in the client that is affecting everyone, but the specs of your machine determine the severity of it.

    It's really common to hear someone say "I got a skill off!" and then another person say "I haven't yet!". We're not all getting free at the same time, and I think freeps are affected worse than creeps and Captains affected worse than other freeps.
    Last edited by ColorSpecs; Aug 13 2013 at 04:16 PM.

  22. #22
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    Oh, and so its not, just to clarify, that you shifted server resources away from PVMP to support MC, right?

  23. #23
    Sapience is offline Former Community Manager & Harbinger of Soon
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    Quote Originally Posted by ColorSpecs View Post
    Oh, and so its not, just to clarify, that you shifted server resources away from PVMP to support MC, right?
    They were shifted long before MC came along.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sapience View Post
    Most people didn't use the leaderboards. The thing people used the most were the Lotteries (which is why I was able to make a case to save them). No other my.lotro.com resource was used nearly as much (we're talking orders of magnitude). Forums were next, Lorebook a very distant third, then character pages (a very, very distant 4th behind the lorebook). Leaderboards were only slightly more used than Blogs.
    Your comment about the leaderboards is only half true. People may not have been using it on the LOTRO site but they were on the Black Appendage site because they cut and displayed the data in a more useful format. If you want a truer idea of the amount of people who were actually viewing total leaderboard data, I am sure the Black Appendage people can provide you with their usage information.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sapience View Post
    The thing people used the most were the Lotteries (which is why I was able to make a case to save them).
    Speaking of which... I noticed the few (2? 3?) lotteries last week. I presume that those were, basically, tests to make sure they worked. Is there anything you can share about timing for when the lotteries will be back on something resembling a "normal" schedule?

    With the monitoring code we put into the game with Update 11.1 and 11.2 we know what the status of the lag is for the vast majority of players (your client tell us now) and it has dropped somewhat since 11.1. Though there are a few things we know the cause of now (thanks to the reporting code) and are working on a fix.
    Is there anything you're getting back that would point to settings or configuration changes that players can do to their own systems (that you can tell us about) that would help?

    Considering the use of the forums has increased nearly 30% since we changed everything and forum performance has increased dramatically (I haven't seen anyone complain they were laggy), I'd say that's the exact opposite of what you're suggesting.
    No kidding. From the "lag" standpoint, the new forums have made a world of difference. There are still some "tweaks" that could be usefully made, but the major stuff is vastly better.

 

 
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