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Thread: Gear > skill?

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
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    612

    Gear > skill?

    So I ran a pug SG today after months hadnt set foot in there. The guard had 4 gold class items and 2 tanking FA, but couldnt keep aggro on anything, from anyone, even a captain. No position. The brute ran around slaping the dpser. We didnt have any cc class. We used 2 capt heal, one of them (me) only gave half attention in the run. The 1'st boss stunned the group everytime he used "the eye" skill, noone care to run away. The 3'rd boss punched the group around the room. No SI, no cc on alts... YET, we still "won" the instance without any wipe. I won a crystal of remembrance. Yay!! But... do I feel happy? No. I feel empty...

    I remember when RoR just came out, many people had cried on the forums that SG is too hard, its impossible... Well, its not impossible. My kins did it the 1st day, but with careful set up group and a strat. It was something we didnt want to pug with people we dont know. Most of the time, we didnt get anything worth the effort, but at least, we felt like we just "beat" "something". We had fun running it, co-operating with friends. Now... its just randomly press some buttons, ignore the mechanic, most of the time the dps will solve the problem. The shiny gear now > player's skill.

    It's sad that the game turn out like this. It's sad that you've train your skills, understand your classes, learn the mechanics of the instances, just to see someone pressing random button and win the random reward.

    If the instances have better mechanics, we shouldnt be able to do this. If the gear was harder to get, if their stats was more carefull considered... But yeah... its cost too much to write and test mechanics for instances and raids...
    Last edited by Hiritier; Aug 12 2013 at 02:07 PM.

  2. #2
    fwiw

    A lot of players no longer remember how those instances were run. They don't know the mechanics and in general, it's no longer important. They have the gear, the stats and all the other items they can stack and just CHARGE!

    It's not that the gear is better than the skills, the knowledge is lost and in many cases not even needed.

    ex:

    The stealthed warg and the sorcerer in BG. It used to be a nightmare getting by those two in the Dance Hall of the Dead. Keep the sorc stun locked, kill the warg, kill the sorc. Last time I was there it was CHARGE! We killed everything in there in less than 5 min. No one died and the sorc was dead before I even got my second skill off.

    With a lot of other things, changes in the game and class structure meant that classes no longer needed as much support from others and also changes within classes made things difficult for others. Aggro is one of them. Most players don't bother managing aggro because the mob will be dead before it becomes a problem.
    Whoever says “I” creates the “you.” Such is the trap of every conscience. The “I” signifies both solitude and rejection of solitude. Words name things and then replace them. Whoever says tomorrow, denies it. Tomorrow exists only for him who does not seek it. And yesterday? Yesterday is Kolvillàg: a name to forget, a word already forgotten.

    The Oath: A Novel by Elie Wiesel

  3. #3
    Nowadays Gear is so easy to get that people of all skill levels can get the best gear, and it no longer requires Skill to get the best gear, I've seen a Hunter with 4 gold Items and a First Age bow, but with Might jewellery and some of the worst Legendary traits and relics possible, it made me almost physically sick to see it, but Sadly this is the way the game is going. Its a subliminal lottery in Instances, people get carried through and RNG rewards them massively, whilst there are some more deserving folk who may run it 500 times and get diddly squat.

    Its a problem that must be fixed, but I dont think it will be.

    At the end of the day if you want to see if a group is worth running or if you are wary of people in your group, look at their legendary items, if they are bad/have the wrong legacies/relics, its usually quite an easy decision if you want to run with them or not, they may have terrible gear, but if they have the right traits/legacies/virtues ( doesnt matter how leveled the virtues are ) / relics, I will give them a chance even if they just hit 85 in crafted gear.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarin View Post

    At the end of the day if you want to see if a group is worth running or if you are wary of people in your group, look at their legendary items, if they are bad/have the wrong legacies/relics, its usually quite an easy decision if you want to run with them or not, they may have terrible gear, but if they have the right traits/legacies/virtues ( doesnt matter how leveled the virtues are ) / relics, I will give them a chance even if they just hit 85 in crafted gear.
    I would agree with your assesment above, the gear doesn't make the player - the player makes the gear work! Knowing your character class and role in groups is worth more than the difference between TA and FA gear. I admit that the better your gear is, you become accustomed to taking more chances and maybe not being as strict with rotations - but that is no reason for a decrease in performance with a group - that's just being lazy or ignorant.
    "Never argue with a fool, it's difficult to tell the difference"

  5. #5
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    Gear can make up for a player's lack of skill, but it can only go so far. It sounds like although you "won" it was a rough run. Additionally, you didn't mention the fourth boss, so I'm not sure if you had any difficulties on him or if you even got to him, which means I can't make a full judgement call on the instance. Sounds like it was slow going though.
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  6. #6
    Heck it doesn't even take good gear to get though the "scaled" instances. Why was SG nerfed? Less Sorcerers, fewer LMs? On level at 65 it was a run that you really felt good at winning. OE... Most newer players have no idea about the colored lights. We just take 2 LMs and burn every thing in sight. Sambrog, is he even a fight?

    The only 2 runs that still give our kin any grief are 2 ITAs, SS and LT trying to get the challenge. At this point, Lotro doesn't require skill or gear to win. My .02, YMMV.
    Used to show a pic... Seems to be broken links now. Good Ole Turbine.

  7. #7
    Join Date
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    It's not just that gear is easier to get, but also the instances have been made easier when they "fixed" the tactical damage scaling somewhere between U9 and U10. Before some mobs could one-shot almost everything but tanks, now there are barely any hits above 2k even on squishies. To some degree that is gear, some is crit defense changes, and some is that scaling fix.
    Used to play: 85 Champ / Captain / Runekeeper / Guardian, Guild Master of everything but cooking.
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tatuaje View Post
    Heck it doesn't even take good gear to get though the "scaled" instances. Why was SG nerfed? Less Sorcerers, fewer LMs? On level at 65 it was a run that you really felt good at winning. OE... Most newer players have no idea about the colored lights. We just take 2 LMs and burn every thing in sight. Sambrog, is he even a fight?

    The only 2 runs that still give our kin any grief are 2 ITAs, SS and LT trying to get the challenge. At this point, Lotro doesn't require skill or gear to win. My .02, YMMV.
    Lost Temple is pretty simple actually. I'd rate Fornost Shadow and Dungeons above that.
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  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Hiritier View Post
    I remember when RoR just came out, many people had cried on the forums that SG is too hard, its impossible... Well, its not impossible. My kins did it the 1st day, but with careful set up group and a strat. It was something we didnt want to pug with people we dont know. Most of the time, we didnt get anything worth the effort, but at least, we felt like we just "beat" "something". We had fun running it, co-operating with friends. Now... its just randomly press some buttons, ignore the mechanic, most of the time the dps will solve the problem. The shiny gear now > player's skill.
    One thing that may have been a problem after they scaled the DG instances was that a good portion of level capped players had never run SG, Dungeons, Warg Pens, etc when the cap was 65. I don't think they even knew the strategies and mechanics. While some in glff were complaining how impossible the first boss in SG was, our kin was breezing through it because we had done it already 20 levels ago. We don't even use stun immunity, because we knew how the mechanics worked. Same with the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and the rest of the cluster.

    A lot of our kin's grouping 'training' came from Moria instances when we were level 60-65, where mistakes could still make things ugly fast. Not only did we learn how to work together and use our skills effectively, we not only felt more accomplished but most importantly had plenty of fun.

    Most nights, we go into any random instance and see what we can do with the classes we have logged in, full group or not, traditional roles or not. It's not about speed for us. Sure, people can just blast their way through harder instances with enough dps and morale, not caring about aggro, mechanics, etc. But if you actually use your skills and knowledge of the space you can actually make it a smoother run. A shiny is nice and all, but a sense of accomplishment goes a lot farther I think.
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  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by TinDragon View Post
    Lost Temple is pretty simple actually. I'd rate Fornost Shadow and Dungeons above that.
    Hehe, yep concept is simple, just for some reason seems to kick our butts at times. Fair amount of situational luck IMO for this run. We actually fair better in Shadow for some reason.
    Used to show a pic... Seems to be broken links now. Good Ole Turbine.

  11. #11
    Join Date
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    I don't think it's a question of gear>skill. I think it used to be true that gear was a reflection of grouping ability, but since F2P Turbine realized the big money is in casual, and therefore solo, players. Grouping/raiding skills used to be the measure of all that was awesome, but if solo is where the cash is, then it makes sense economically to make the game more solo friendly. I think class revamps, combat mechanic revamps and scaling means that each class is less specialized and more generic, and face rolling players can get away with being sloppy in groups. While it may not be as much fun for groupers, it means the game will last longer financially.... you win some, you lose some.

    PS: Also wrt gear & combat changes (finesse etc.), DPS makes up for a lot of bad strategy! And I think many classes have seen an increase in DPS (which makes them more solo friendly, yada yada...)
    Last edited by BlancoFallowhide; Aug 14 2013 at 12:18 AM.
    Officer in Windfola's House of Blackrock: a great, casual kin of people who play a lot. [url]http://hobonline.org[/url]

  12. #12
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    Sep 2010
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    612
    Quote Originally Posted by TinDragon View Post
    Gear can make up for a player's lack of skill, but it can only go so far. It sounds like although you "won" it was a rough run. Additionally, you didn't mention the fourth boss, so I'm not sure if you had any difficulties on him or if you even got to him, which means I can't make a full judgement call on the instance. Sounds like it was slow going though.
    Not at all. Everything was a cake, include the 4th boss. As i said, we have not wipe anytime, and i only gave half attention to the run, that show you how easy it was. Its not even slow because all you do is just go strait dps, dont need to worry about tactic or position, or even aggro. Things just die before it can harm you.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
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    612
    Quote Originally Posted by SvenNiscadae View Post
    One thing that may have been a problem after they scaled the DG instances was that a good portion of level capped players had never run SG, Dungeons, Warg Pens, etc when the cap was 65. I don't think they even knew the strategies and mechanics. While some in glff were complaining how impossible the first boss in SG was, our kin was breezing through it because we had done it already 20 levels ago. We don't even use stun immunity, because we knew how the mechanics worked. Same with the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and the rest of the cluster.

    A lot of our kin's grouping 'training' came from Moria instances when we were level 60-65, where mistakes could still make things ugly fast. Not only did we learn how to work together and use our skills effectively, we not only felt more accomplished but most importantly had plenty of fun.

    Most nights, we go into any random instance and see what we can do with the classes we have logged in, full group or not, traditional roles or not. It's not about speed for us. Sure, people can just blast their way through harder instances with enough dps and morale, not caring about aggro, mechanics, etc. But if you actually use your skills and knowledge of the space you can actually make it a smoother run. A shiny is nice and all, but a sense of accomplishment goes a lot farther I think.
    Yeah thats what i want to talk about, you once needed to understand the mechanic or you wipe, even with good gear. Now everything you do is just dps. /wave mechanics.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Hiritier View Post
    Not at all. Everything is a cake, include the 4th boss. As i said, we have not wipe anytime, and i only give half attention to the run, that show you how easy it was. Its not even slow because all you do is just go strait dps, dont need to worry about tactic or position.
    Slightly off topic:

    It's always amazed me that players can do so many tasks at the same time as playing the game, even in raids. I'm strictly single threaded and cannot multitask but players I've known can read books, watch movies, stream video content/YouTubes, listen to other music, watch tv, play a second game (not lotro), sms, chat on the phone, cook and eat food, duckduckgo.com for stuff, read the lastest blogs or game news... the list is amazingly long.

    Then there are those who can do all of the above and play two or more toons at the same time in LOTRO and in other games, even in a raid.

    Just boggles....
    Whoever says “I” creates the “you.” Such is the trap of every conscience. The “I” signifies both solitude and rejection of solitude. Words name things and then replace them. Whoever says tomorrow, denies it. Tomorrow exists only for him who does not seek it. And yesterday? Yesterday is Kolvillàg: a name to forget, a word already forgotten.

    The Oath: A Novel by Elie Wiesel

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by SabrielofLorien View Post
    Slightly off topic:

    It's always amazed me that players can do so many tasks at the same time as playing the game, even in raids. I'm strictly single threaded and cannot multitask but players I've known can read books, watch movies, stream video content/YouTubes, listen to other music, watch tv, play a second game (not lotro), sms, chat on the phone, cook and eat food, duckduckgo.com for stuff, read the lastest blogs or game news... the list is amazingly long.

    Then there are those who can do all of the above and play two or more toons at the same time in LOTRO and in other games, even in a raid.

    Just boggles....
    It's unlikely they're doing it 'well'. Granted, when you're running Battle For Erebor over and over again, you had lots of natural breaks to do other stuff while the raidleader looked for a replacement for the one that had to go, etc. Anybody trying to run Orthanc Tier 2 with a group back at the level 75 cap and wasn't totally focused on the fights likely was the one causing the wipes.

    Be wary of believing all you hear about folks doing other things or 'half paying attention'. Braggadocio comes in many forms.
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