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Thread: Balance...

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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
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    Angry Balance...

    Alright, folks. My Blackarrow's Fire Arrow DoT at most is 300 every 2s for 20s. That is a grand total of 3000 Fire damage.

    Warden's DoT. MEDIUM BLEED---946 every 4s for 52s. Thats a grand total of 12,298. Big bleed is 1200 Damage/tick.

    I fail to see how this is balanced in the least.

    I've taken a 6 month break from this game. Back then, it was unbalanced, but not nearly this bad.

    I shouldnt have to leave combat at 1/2 hp just to survive. I cant tell you how many times i have died with 4k hp when i leave combat b/c of DoTs.

    I dunno what to do. Do Creeps just have to Zerg freeps in order to win? I'm so confused.

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Sunshineman View Post
    Alright, folks. My Blackarrow's Fire Arrow DoT at most is 300 every 2s for 20s. That is a grand total of 3000 Fire damage.

    Warden's DoT. MEDIUM BLEED---946 every 4s for 52s. Thats a grand total of 12,298. Big bleed is 1200 Damage/tick.

    I fail to see how this is balanced in the least.

    I've taken a 6 month break from this game. Back then, it was unbalanced, but not nearly this bad.

    I shouldnt have to leave combat at 1/2 hp just to survive. I cant tell you how many times i have died with 4k hp when i leave combat b/c of DoTs.

    I dunno what to do. Do Creeps just have to Zerg freeps in order to win? I'm so confused.
    max possible is 42s, not 52. With those bleed numbers, they're only wearing 2 pieces of audacity and generally glass cannon gear as well.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm in complete agreement about those bleeds being out of line in duration (it should go back to the pre-revamp 16s), but a full, accurate picture of whats going on helps nonetheless.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    max possible is 42s, not 52. With those bleed numbers, they're only wearing 2 pieces of audacity and generally glass cannon gear as well.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm in complete agreement about those bleeds being out of line in duration (it should go back to the pre-revamp 16s), but a full, accurate picture of whats going on helps nonetheless.
    I think you're being misleading, calling a warden a "glass cannon", even in full DPS gear and traits they are hardly glass.
    "the woods would be very silent if no birds sang except those that sang best" - Henry VanDyke

  4. #4
    What they are wearing for gear is kind of a moot point with in combat gear swaps no? Either way, why is a "tank" class able to do 3 times the damage of dps classes? I think we can all agree that wardens are severely overpowered, but heck most freep classes are these days....

  5. #5
    Join Date
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    This thread fails to include the fact that it is unlikely that a warden will have only one DOT on you. One warden, given enough time, could fill a whole row of your buff bar with massive bleeds.

    Being able to do an inducted 2-5k heal every few seconds doesn't really help when some specially conditioned from birth warden is shooting javelins at you because s/he doesn't know anything else. If a warden decides, in a raid, that they want me dead or have been assigned to attack me and they only use range, eventually the DOTs get so big, combined with the induction setbacks of their attacks, that I am unable to outheal them and without another healer, I die.

    Let's not get started about wardens in melee range...

  6. #6
    The Moors are an imperfect place. On our server, and several others from posts I've seen, one side or the other is routinely playing with the pop buff. That's a rather serious numbers issue which the pop buff doesn't begin to address. Are Wardens OP? Yep. But the list of 'unbalanced' aspects of the Moors is large. Any balancing efforts won't be forthcoming until well after Helm's Deep. There's little for anyone to do to deal with the imbalances on their particular server or in their particular playing time but use the size of the Moors, the variables of the map, and their own ingenuity to find fights more to their liking. Some days that's tough or near impossible.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
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    Quote Originally Posted by ksjock View Post
    I think you're being misleading, calling a warden a "glass cannon", even in full DPS gear and traits they are hardly glass.
    He did say glass cannon gear, might seem like semantics, but it's not really. Anyways, point is, a build and gear setup like that means the warden can be brought low really fast. The real problem is, as everything else with freeps, when they group up; Lolmasters, caddys, healing Sith Lords, the whole tjubang, then everything truly gets outta hand...

    ...hmm, not entirely sure why I bothered posting this, we all know this anyways, but now I've written it so...


    @ OP: stay strong, keel kewl and die well. Need to learn to laugh at how riduncoulousilly PvMP is at the moment, otherwise it'll eat you up mate and you'll tire of the game in no time. (Which no one can blame you really should it happen.) I started a creep at day one of lotro and have had many breaks from the game, years long some of them so no expert on the matter, but I don't recall PvMP ever being as skewed as it is currently. If you can't learn to appreciate all the different ways your toon explodes, implodes, and generally bounce round your screen because some ezmoder decided to have a nap face first on his keyboard, well, you'll end up a bitter old man/woman.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
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    Since '07 after release, we saw a pattern developing: nerf creep skills to prevent solo creeps from having much of a chance against solo freeps, so that creeps LEARN TO GROUP UP. So ok, then came the Rift with damage reflect gear, and it still didn't matter if you grouped or not. The point being that creeps always seem to be behind the 8-ball, and freeps seem to have a ridiculously easier time to rank/level. Some said, Well its a way to get freeps into the Moors, but I totally disagree. People want a challenge, not a free ride (basically), so why not reorder the way PVMP is played, in order to encourage levelling without the disgrace of being blown up by an RK or Hunter in mere seconds. I look at it like this: If creeps had 65-75k morale, and freeps 65-75k morale, and you gave points NOT JUST from kills, but from actual combat skills being executed (hits, crit hits, dev hits, crit heals, succesful manoeuvres, etc.), with the focus more on COMBAT rather than kills or kb's (which was a stupid idea from the start), then people would not feel so disgraced over dying WAY TOO FAST, and ACTUALLY ENGAGE in combat for points. I quit running my BA around in the Moors a long time ago because it just got to be BS trying to deal with burgs, destroying your Morale while you were locked down for 15 seconds. I know that's changed now but the principle of the thing has been all wrong from the start. Give players 75k morale and let them beat and bash each other to their heart's content, dying only after a longer stint in a big scap, instead of quickly, and award points for actually fighting an enemy instead of leeching points off the raid in stealth or camo. If it takes 10 minutes to bring down a creep, because his Morale is much higher, and his resistance is much greater, than how more rewarding the kb? It shouldn't matter really, but it does, that sme value kb's, but how much more rewarding if it comes as a result of a long fight? Instead of blowing each other up in seconds, which current system has driven more people out of the Moors than all their previous management blunders. Give us high morale/high resist and let us recieve points from combat, making it worthwhile and more fun, and MAYBE the Moors won't be empty all the time on most servers. I challenge the Devs to do this and quit failing in their management of what used to be the second most populated part of the game....

    Just an old BA's observations....
    ROMANDIL Level 100 Captain, NIN the Blackarrow since Beta 1, ALDAMIRAS since Alpha 4

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Aldamiras View Post
    Since '07 after release, we saw a pattern developing: nerf creep skills to prevent solo creeps from having much of a chance against solo freeps, so that creeps LEARN TO GROUP UP. So ok, then came the Rift with damage reflect gear, and it still didn't matter if you grouped or not. The point being that creeps always seem to be behind the 8-ball, and freeps seem to have a ridiculously easier time to rank/level. Some said, Well its a way to get freeps into the Moors, but I totally disagree. People want a challenge, not a free ride (basically), so why not reorder the way PVMP is played, in order to encourage levelling without the disgrace of being blown up by an RK or Hunter in mere seconds. I look at it like this: If creeps had 65-75k morale, and freeps 65-75k morale, and you gave points NOT JUST from kills, but from actual combat skills being executed (hits, crit hits, dev hits, crit heals, succesful manoeuvres, etc.), with the focus more on COMBAT rather than kills or kb's (which was a stupid idea from the start), then people would not feel so disgraced over dying WAY TOO FAST, and ACTUALLY ENGAGE in combat for points. I quit running my BA around in the Moors a long time ago because it just got to be BS trying to deal with burgs, destroying your Morale while you were locked down for 15 seconds. I know that's changed now but the principle of the thing has been all wrong from the start. Give players 75k morale and let them beat and bash each other to their heart's content, dying only after a longer stint in a big scap, instead of quickly, and award points for actually fighting an enemy instead of leeching points off the raid in stealth or camo. If it takes 10 minutes to bring down a creep, because his Morale is much higher, and his resistance is much greater, than how more rewarding the kb? It shouldn't matter really, but it does, that sme value kb's, but how much more rewarding if it comes as a result of a long fight? Instead of blowing each other up in seconds, which current system has driven more people out of the Moors than all their previous management blunders. Give us high morale/high resist and let us recieve points from combat, making it worthwhile and more fun, and MAYBE the Moors won't be empty all the time on most servers. I challenge the Devs to do this and quit failing in their management of what used to be the second most populated part of the game....

    Just an old BA's observations....

    personally this idea would work but I doubt turbine will do they are freemium game only interested in our money not motivating us to actually play pvp.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by poxnoxious View Post
    He did say glass cannon gear, might seem like semantics, but it's not really. Anyways, point is, a build and gear setup like that means the warden can be brought low really fast. The real problem is, as everything else with freeps, when they group up; Lolmasters, caddys, healing Sith Lords, the whole tjubang, then everything truly gets outta hand...

    ...hmm, not entirely sure why I bothered posting this, we all know this anyways, but now I've written it so...


    @ OP: stay strong, keel kewl and die well. Need to learn to laugh at how riduncoulousilly PvMP is at the moment, otherwise it'll eat you up mate and you'll tire of the game in no time. (Which no one can blame you really should it happen.) I started a creep at day one of lotro and have had many breaks from the game, years long some of them so no expert on the matter, but I don't recall PvMP ever being as skewed as it is currently. If you can't learn to appreciate all the different ways your toon explodes, implodes, and generally bounce round your screen because some ezmoder decided to have a nap face first on his keyboard, well, you'll end up a bitter old man/woman.
    This. Both the point about warden's and even more with having fun.

    I've goofed around with my full pve dps build during a couple GV camps, and yes, I can kill an unsupported healer from range without needing the inc healing debuff, but you know what else happens since i'm not grouped? A warg Duo can kill me before I recover from the pounce, and LONG before the animation on DC would take effect. No gearswapping and cooldown useage can save me in that scenario if the wargs are competent and follow the stun with a silence/disarm.

    Squelcher, I'd imagine most decent hunters in a raid can do the same to you, right? If the warden is running with the gear we are discussing here, they need to be treated like a hunter. We are long past the point where arguments of "a tanking/healing/cc class shouldn't be able to do that kind of dps" were relevant. Every freep class is able to do dps that puts creeps to shame, its not a warden specific thing (warden's are outliers in what they can do in in solo/small group settings, not raids).

  11. #11
    Join Date
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sunshineman View Post

    I dunno what to do. Do Creeps just have to Zerg freeps in order to win? I'm so confused.
    No. Had a 3v1, killed them all. On a WL.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by ContraMundum View Post
    No. Had a 3v1, killed them all. On a WL.
    That's sounds impressive, but unfortunately that means that those freeps were bad. No other explanation than ridiculous, blind luck.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
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    Middle Earf Yo
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    The RK is very good, but she didn't use heals, the burg and champ were new.

  14. #14
    Wardens are op. They shouldn't have a stance that gives them great ranged damage and have insane mits and morale, but that's Turbine's logic for ya.

  15. #15
    There's little balance at the moment. On the one hand, you have freeps who individually or in small groups can pretty routinely take out creeps in equivalent numbers and ranks. So when the numbers on the map are low or there aren't raid-sized groups, freeps are OP. However, creeps have skills and maps that enable them to more than hold their own against an equal number of freeps in RvR type encounters. A creep raid with 3 WLs dropping terror banners will cut a freep raid's DPS in half. Those same 3 WLs should be able to res more ppl than 9 minstrels with their AoE reses. Throw in wargs tracking freep raids and the freep raids losing the element of surprise most of the time, maps which allow them to concentrate their forces anywhere on the map pretty quickly, and creeps do very well when they have numbers. So is it balanced? No. If creeps would like 'balance' in 1v1 type situations, they'd likely have to give up the things that make them so effective in larger numbers. Things like maps, long strides on wargs, the large coverage area and huge affects of stacked WL banners and their AoE reses. Is that a trade-off creeps would like to make?

    It is difficult for green creeps to rank and get their maps, but the freeps you see out there at lvl 85 spents months getting there if they have half-way decent gear and virtues.
    Last edited by Nouri; Aug 14 2013 at 03:49 AM.

 

 

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