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  1. #351
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erlindur View Post
    Well, that is lore breaking, not book breaking.
    WHat on earth do you mean by that? The books are the lore. In the books, more specifically in Return of the King, we are given the information about Lorien, Mirkwood and Dol Guldur. Just because Frodo doesn't go there himself doesn't mean it isn't in the books.
    [I]In the sea without lees standeth the Bird of Hermes.
    [/I][I]When all his feathers be from him gone, He standeth still here as a stone.
    Here is now both white and red, And all so the stone to quicken the dead[/I][I].
    The Bird of Hermes is my name, Eating my wings to make me tame.[/I]

  2. #352
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erlindur View Post

    and my question is where does it stop? Do we get to kill the Witch-King? Do we get the chance to kill Gollum? Can we raid Sauron? At what point book breaking is a red line we cannot cross?
    I think your answering your own question. Where does it stop? Well those things you mention would be a good place to stop (or never even come close to) obviously .
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  3. #353
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    Quote Originally Posted by Runesi_EU View Post
    I think your answering your own question. Where does it stop? Well those things you mention would be a good place to stop (or never even come close to) obviously .
    The thing is, we've already crossed that line. Why take a step back for those specific events? They're considered important moments and apparently the crowd wants to be there and live them. I don't, but I don't have a say in things.
    We have already tackled Saruman, two dragons, two Belryg and a ton of Nazgûl in toe-to-toe combat and defeated them all (sometimes solo), and we've witnessed Dwarves and Elves in large-scale events that did not occur. Now we're about to join the fellowship in Helm's Deep. So why not kill the Witch-king? Why not defeat Sauron? Lore has been thrown out the window in favour of crowd-pleasing anyway. You may not like it, and I know I don't, but Turbine has decided to walk that path.
    [I]In the sea without lees standeth the Bird of Hermes.
    [/I][I]When all his feathers be from him gone, He standeth still here as a stone.
    Here is now both white and red, And all so the stone to quicken the dead[/I][I].
    The Bird of Hermes is my name, Eating my wings to make me tame.[/I]

  4. #354
    Quote Originally Posted by BirdofHermes View Post
    WHat on earth do you mean by that? The books are the lore. In the books, more specifically in Return of the King, we are given the information about Lorien, Mirkwood and Dol Guldur. Just because Frodo doesn't go there himself doesn't mean it isn't in the books.
    Yes, sorry about that. Having something in my mind doesn't necessary mean that everyone that reads my post will understand it. I gave my lore break and book break definitions some time ago in this post. My post is a bit out of context without that one.

  5. #355
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    Quote Originally Posted by BirdofHermes View Post
    The thing is, we've already crossed that line. Why take a step back for those specific events? They're considered important moments and apparently the crowd wants to be there and live them. I don't, but I don't have a say in things.
    We have already tackled Saruman, two dragons, two Belryg and a ton of Nazgûl in toe-to-toe combat and defeated them all (sometimes solo), and we've witnessed Dwarves and Elves in large-scale events that did not occur. Now we're about to join the fellowship in Helm's Deep. So why not kill the Witch-king? Why not defeat Sauron? Lore has been thrown out the window in favour of crowd-pleasing anyway. You may not like it, and I know I don't, but Turbine has decided to walk that path.
    To be fair to them, that's a bit of a 'slippery slope' argument. Provided they only have the player-characters participating at HD and not stealing the scene entirely, it's not so bad. And going by previous examples, it'd be reasonable to assume for now that the Witch-king would be most likely to meet his demise in session play. As for fighting Sauron himself, well, if that happens at all then the game will definitely have jumped the shark - there'd be no excusing it at all but even the idea of going up against Saruman didn't quite hit that degree of sheer awfulness. I'm reasonably sure they draw the line somewhere short of that.

  6. #356
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    Quote Originally Posted by BirdofHermes View Post
    The thing is, we've already crossed that line. Why take a step back for those specific events? They're considered important moments and apparently the crowd wants to be there and live them. I don't, but I don't have a say in things.
    We have already tackled Saruman, two dragons, two Belryg and a ton of Nazgûl in toe-to-toe combat and defeated them all (sometimes solo), and we've witnessed Dwarves and Elves in large-scale events that did not occur. Now we're about to join the fellowship in Helm's Deep. So why not kill the Witch-king? Why not defeat Sauron? Lore has been thrown out the window in favour of crowd-pleasing anyway. You may not like it, and I know I don't, but Turbine has decided to walk that path.

    Argumentum ad absurdum.

    The line was crossed when they decided to make an MMO rather than some kind of ridiculous ebook.

    Deciding to walk a path. Give me a break!

  7. #357
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radbug View Post
    Argumentum ad absurdum.
    Err, no, it's not...

    The line was crossed when they decided to make an MMO rather than some kind of ridiculous ebook.

    Deciding to walk a path. Give me a break!
    That's the tired old "it's a game" type of argument again, presupposing everything about the game could only have turned out one way. Of course Turbine decided to walk a particular path, one where the player-characters are presented as 'the' heroes and saviours, taking on dragons, Balrogs and fallen Istari, indulging in more grandiose heroics than the 'real' heroes do. It didn't have to be that way.

  8. #358
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erlindur View Post
    Yes, sorry about that. Having something in my mind doesn't necessary mean that everyone that reads my post will understand it. I gave my lore break and book break definitions some time ago in this post. My post is a bit out of context without that one.
    I see. I'm afraid I have to disagree. When something happens in the books and is described, but not seen directly through the eyes of a fellowship-member, I still see it as a book-break. It's in the book. I can read it.




    Quote Originally Posted by Radbug View Post
    Argumentum ad absurdum.
    That's it?
    Midly amusing, but please provide evidence to counter my argument if you disagree with it, because I did. If you cannot, then I'm afraid my point stands.
    [I]In the sea without lees standeth the Bird of Hermes.
    [/I][I]When all his feathers be from him gone, He standeth still here as a stone.
    Here is now both white and red, And all so the stone to quicken the dead[/I][I].
    The Bird of Hermes is my name, Eating my wings to make me tame.[/I]

  9. #359
    That's the tired old "it's a game" type of argument again, presupposing everything about the game could only have turned out one way. Of course Turbine decided to walk a particular path, one where the player-characters are presented as 'the' heroes and saviours, taking on dragons, Balrogs and fallen Istari, indulging in more grandiose heroics than the 'real' heroes do. It didn't have to be that way.

    Of course it's this way - Turbine made a game (a product) hoping that people will buy it. Otherwise they should have just made a stupid FaceBook browser game like Wartune, Stormfall, Castelot, or...Farmville...

    There are only 2 ways to avoid the situation you described:
    a) have us play the part of a Fellowship member (Frodo, Aragorn, Gandalf, etc) as done in previous games such as Sierra's "The Lord of The Rings: The Fellowship Of The Ring", or EA's "The Return Of The King"
    b) have us as we are now (outsiders, tag-alongs) who do nothing more glorious than following the Fellowship with a big pooper-scooper for Bill the Pony. who will pay for that?

    Turbine did a great job in catering to human nature (as did SOE & Blizzard) - the desire for glorious achievement and reward. As such these companies have made a lot of money, and will continue to do so until they lose creativity, get stale, something newer and more exciting comes along (and is marketed well). Whether or not LOTRO is on that downward path (and where) is the great debate...
    "The world weighs on my shoulders, but what am I to do? You sometimes drive me crazy, but I worry about you. I know it makes no difference to what you're going through, but I see the tip of the iceberg, and I worry about you"

  10. #360
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    Quote Originally Posted by HeirOfNumenor View Post
    Of course it's this way - Turbine made a game (a product) hoping that people will buy it. Otherwise they should have just made a stupid FaceBook browser game like Wartune, Stormfall, Castelot, or...Farmville...

    There are only 2 ways to avoid the situation you described:
    a) have us play the part of a Fellowship member (Frodo, Aragorn, Gandalf, etc) as done in previous games such as Sierra's "The Lord of The Rings: The Fellowship Of The Ring", or EA's "The Return Of The King"
    b) have us as we are now (outsiders, tag-alongs) who do nothing more glorious than following the Fellowship with a big pooper-scooper for Bill the Pony. who will pay for that?

    Turbine did a great job in catering to human nature (as did SOE & Blizzard) - the desire for glorious achievement and reward. As such these companies have made a lot of money, and will continue to do so until they lose creativity, get stale, something newer and more exciting comes along (and is marketed well). Whether or not LOTRO is on that downward path (and where) is the great debate...
    That's a false dichotomy, since the 'as we are now' wasn't a straight choice between the game as-is (exaggerated to a wild degree, with Balrogs being bashed and so on) and the 'pooper-scooper' level, to borrow your phrase. There's always a middle ground that both doesn't exaggerate wildly and which doesn't have the player-characters as nobodies. As usual, though, it seems that for people like you mere heroism isn't enough and you're only content with superheroism, out-heroing the 'real' heroes no matter how out of place that is. It's far from the first time I've heard that broken excuse for an argument.

    There's really no debate about whether LOTRO is on a downward path because any game its age would be. WoW's been headed downhill for a while now, in case you hadn't noticed. It's in the nature of the beast, MMOs have a life-cycle just like any other game. The question is really one of whether the decline is gentle or steep, and how much push-back against it that new content (and especially expansions) can provide.

  11. #361
    Quote Originally Posted by BirdofHermes View Post
    I see. I'm afraid I have to disagree. When something happens in the books and is described, but not seen directly through the eyes of a fellowship-member, I still see it as a book-break. It's in the book. I can read it.
    Nice, understandable and respectable position. My only objection is that you set the bar too high. Turbine has already failed you. Bringing eagle mounts in game doesn't matter in your logic. They failed long time ago, who cares what they'll do next.

    PS. By the way. How many references do you have in the books about various races drinking water? If it is not there, it does not exist is your mantra. OK, do hobbits drink water? Do elves? What about dwarfs? If it is not in the books then it is lore breaking. What races are allowed to drink water without breaking the lore?

  12. #362
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    Err, no, it's not...


    That's the tired old "it's a game" type of argument again, presupposing everything about the game could only have turned out one way. Of course Turbine decided to walk a particular path, one where the player-characters are presented as 'the' heroes and saviours, taking on dragons, Balrogs and fallen Istari, indulging in more grandiose heroics than the 'real' heroes do. It didn't have to be that way.

    Err yes it is. Suggesting we kill protagonists that are defeated by named characters is clearly absurd. It's on a par with saying having our characters on the Deeping Wall is so bad we may as well give them Gatling Guns. If Turbine go ahead and make a raid in which you kill the Witch King I'll happily eat a hobbit sized portion of humble pie. lol, now I'm being absurd. It would be a solo instance...


    The tired old, "it's a game" type of argument will continue for as long as it's a game. Not the books.

    Instead of trashing everyone's opinions why don't you share your vision for the game?

  13. #363
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radbug View Post
    Err yes it is. Suggesting we kill protagonists that are defeated by named characters is clearly absurd. It's on a par with saying having our characters on the Deeping Wall is so bad we may as well give them Gatling Guns. If Turbine go ahead and make a raid in which you kill the Witch King I'll happily eat a hobbit sized portion of humble pie. lol, now I'm being absurd. It would be a solo instance...
    Still no, because that's not what argumentum ad absurdum is. (It's a method of attempting to disprove a proposition, by showing it has absurd, or at least false, implications). You can't prove they wouldn't go so far as to have the player-characters help kill the Witch-king; after all we've already had them beating up Saruman on top of his own tower and then being rescued by Eagles when things went pear-shaped, which was all way over the top.

    The tired old, "it's a game" type of argument will continue for as long as it's a game. Not the books.
    It's a fallacious argument every single time, a sweeping generalization - there's always the assumption that games collectively share some arbitrary, unstated set of characteristics, and that whatever feature of this game someone is trying to defend is one of that unspecified collection of stuff that a 'game' always has or does. So, it doesn't matter how often you or anyone else repeats it, it's baloney.

    Instead of trashing everyone's opinions why don't you share your vision for the game?
    I have. Heroics on the same sort of scale that the 'real' heroes could feasibly accomplish, rather than comic-book superheroics. Acknowledgement that some foes are simply beyond their capabilities, à la "This foe is beyond any of you." Not repeatedly having evil fortresses one can simply walk into. Not making NPCs like the Grey Company made to look like hapless dolts who'll only get anywhere if the player-characters help, rather than the thoroughly competent professionals the book presents them as. And so on, and so forth, on the general theme of a preference for the player-characters just being regular heroes (Beregond-style) rather than having a hugely bloated role as 'the' heroes.

  14. #364
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    Quote Originally Posted by Erlindur View Post
    Nice, understandable and respectable position. My only objection is that you set the bar too high. Turbine has already failed you. Bringing eagle mounts in game doesn't matter in your logic. They failed long time ago, who cares what they'll do next.

    PS. By the way. How many references do you have in the books about various races drinking water? If it is not there, it does not exist is your mantra. OK, do hobbits drink water? Do elves? What about dwarfs? If it is not in the books then it is lore breaking. What races are allowed to drink water without breaking the lore?
    False assumption. There's a difference between
    - something that is not in the books but doesn't contradict with what is already in the books (and may possibly be a logical extension of something in the books)
    - something that is not in the books but does contradict with what is already in the books (or something that is so ridiculously far-fetched that it would never come near the books in the first place, such as machine guns or giant goat mounts)

    I've explained this difference at quite a length in an earlier post, but I think this will do.
    [I]In the sea without lees standeth the Bird of Hermes.
    [/I][I]When all his feathers be from him gone, He standeth still here as a stone.
    Here is now both white and red, And all so the stone to quicken the dead[/I][I].
    The Bird of Hermes is my name, Eating my wings to make me tame.[/I]

  15. #365
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    Still no, because that's not what argumentum ad absurdum is. (It's a method of attempting to disprove a proposition, by showing it has absurd, or at least false, implications). You can't prove they wouldn't go so far as to have the player-characters help kill the Witch-king; after all we've already had them beating up Saruman on top of his own tower and then being rescued by Eagles when things went pear-shaped, which was all way over the top.

    It's also an attempt to prove or defend a position or statement by contending that absurd results will follow from a denial of that position or statement. I can't prove anything, nor am I trying, but I can still say despite all the mangling the Lore has had, we have not killed a protagonist that a named character from the books has dispatched. So I don't have a burden of proof. If I'm proven wrong, like I said I'll eat humble pie. Will you?


    It's a fallacious argument every single time, a sweeping generalization - there's always the assumption that games collectively share some arbitrary, unstated set of characteristics, and that whatever feature of this game someone is trying to defend is one of that unspecified collection of stuff that a 'game' always has or does. So, it doesn't matter how often you or anyone else repeats it, it's baloney.

    Say what now? I'm not defending anything. I'm just saying it's a game. My statement simply said they had to make Lore sacrifices to make a game. Swift travel, teleporting, magical in every sense of the term Bank Vaults, magic maps, radar... My character goes into battle carrying enough food and soup to feed a small army. Enough glass, pewter, pottery containers to make a racket that would be heard in Mordor. Power pots, magical bottles of 'Morale', disease pots... I can change weapons and armour in under a second in combat. People accept a lot of 'baloney' to get something playable. That's why it's a game not a simulator. If you disagree then fair enough, but one person's lore break is another person's playability. Really with HD the devs were between a rock and a hard place. I don't like it per se, but I can accept it because of the medium in which it's being presented.


    I have. Heroics on the same sort of scale that the 'real' heroes could feasibly accomplish, rather than comic-book superheroics. Acknowledgement that some foes are simply beyond their capabilities, à la "This foe is beyond any of you." Not repeatedly having evil fortresses one can simply walk into. Not making NPCs like the Grey Company made to look like hapless dolts who'll only get anywhere if the player-characters help, rather than the thoroughly competent professionals the book presents them as. And so on, and so forth, on the general theme of a preference for the player-characters just being regular heroes (Beregond-style) rather than having a hugely bloated role as 'the' heroes.

    This I can get on board with to an extent. Totally agree with what you said about the Grey Company, that's just a poor show all round. I'd love it if there were dangerous non-instanced parts of this game that would result in almost certain death unless you went there in a group. And no, I don't mean Balrogs or Dragons either. Walking into a well fortified Uruk camp and being detected should be enough. But apparently I'm in a minority in wanting dangerous landscape stuff. The only thing that might cause issue is in trying to make an Epic Story that takes in the iconic locations and lets us (as in our characters) meet some of greatest peoples of ME. I think that's difficult to do without attributing some kind of 'more than regular' hero status. Not saying it's impossible and I'm not defending a position before you jump up and down on it - just noting a difficulty. So I guess I'm saying we will always be the bridesmaids at the wedding, but perhaps they could tone down our hotness. Or they could make us the bumbling idiots that have to continually be rescued by raids of NPCs.

    Or something.

  16. #366
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radbug View Post
    It's also an attempt to prove or defend a position or statement by contending that absurd results will follow from a denial of that position or statement. I can't prove anything, nor am I trying, but I can still say despite all the mangling the Lore has had, we have not killed a protagonist that a named character from the books has dispatched. So I don't have a burden of proof.
    Oh I'm sure Eowyn will run in at the last second to deal the finishing blow in a drama sequence, but I reckon we'll fight him just as we did Saruman.
    [I]In the sea without lees standeth the Bird of Hermes.
    [/I][I]When all his feathers be from him gone, He standeth still here as a stone.
    Here is now both white and red, And all so the stone to quicken the dead[/I][I].
    The Bird of Hermes is my name, Eating my wings to make me tame.[/I]

  17. #367
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    Quote Originally Posted by BirdofHermes View Post
    Oh I'm sure Eowyn will run in at the last second to deal the finishing blow in a drama sequence, but I reckon we'll fight him just as we did Saruman.
    That's it?

    Bit of a climb down from killing him. And you snipped the humble pie part.

  18. #368
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radbug View Post
    That's it?Bit of a climb down from killing him. And you snipped the humble pie part.
    We didn't "kill" Saruman or the Nazgûl either, we just defeated them, even when their morale sometimes reached 0. We won't "kill" Sauron either, but we can defeat him. I admit I was being too harsh when using the term "kill" there, but in this MMO there is little distinction between killing and defeating. Characters sometimes die when their morale reaches 0, and sometimes not. Sometimes it counts as Morale, sometimes as Life. For player characters it's always Morale and we just get back up. For most enemies, even big ones like Thaurlach, it's Life. But not always.


    And yes I did snip it, because it was aimed at Rad, and not relevant to the reply I was going to post.
    [I]In the sea without lees standeth the Bird of Hermes.
    [/I][I]When all his feathers be from him gone, He standeth still here as a stone.
    Here is now both white and red, And all so the stone to quicken the dead[/I][I].
    The Bird of Hermes is my name, Eating my wings to make me tame.[/I]

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    Quote Originally Posted by Radbug View Post
    I'd love it if there were dangerous non-instanced parts of this game that would result in almost certain death unless you went there in a group. And no, I don't mean Balrogs or Dragons either. Walking into a well fortified Uruk camp and being detected should be enough.
    Allowing for this being a level based game and what is horribly dangerous to a character of one level will be a trivial exercise to a higher level one... If mobs of a level much higher than the norm of the surrounding zone counts for what you want, there are those level 55 orcs in an area near the border between Bree-land and the Lone Lands. *That* should count as a "dangerous non-instanced part".

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    Quote Originally Posted by BirdofHermes View Post
    We didn't "kill" Saruman or the Nazgûl either, we just defeated them, even when their morale sometimes reached 0. We won't "kill" Sauron either, but we can defeat him. I admit I was being too harsh when using the term "kill" there, but in this MMO there is little distinction between killing and defeating. Characters sometimes die when their morale reaches 0, and sometimes not. Sometimes it counts as Morale, sometimes as Life. For player characters it's always Morale and we just get back up. For most enemies, even big ones like Thaurlach, it's Life. But not always.


    And yes I did snip it, because it was aimed at Rad, and not relevant to the reply I was going to post.

    Which was my point entirely.


    Quote Originally Posted by whheydt View Post
    Allowing for this being a level based game and what is horribly dangerous to a character of one level will be a trivial exercise to a higher level one... If mobs of a level much higher than the norm of the surrounding zone counts for what you want, there are those level 55 orcs in an area near the border between Bree-land and the Lone Lands. *That* should count as a "dangerous non-instanced part".

    Well thanks for stating the obvious in your first sentence. And, yes there are some actual dangerous places - in the lower zones. Maybe I should have added 'some more' in front of 'dangerous non-instanced parts'. The last good area for that, on level, was LLG and how long ago was that?

  21. #371
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    Quote Originally Posted by Radbug View Post
    It's also an attempt to prove or defend a position or statement by contending that absurd results will follow from a denial of that position or statement. I can't prove anything, nor am I trying, but I can still say despite all the mangling the Lore has had, we have not killed a protagonist that a named character from the books has dispatched. So I don't have a burden of proof. If I'm proven wrong, like I said I'll eat humble pie. Will you?
    I don;t recall ever having seen it defined that way. And you can say that about lore-mangling, but that's an artificial line you're drawing. We don't have to kill such a named character in order to mangle things - simply fighting them could be enough for the story to be horribly mangled. Sauron would be an obvious example. The Witch-king would be another, if it involved elbowing Merry and Eowyn out of the way so a token "beat the bad guy down to x health before he freezes you in place and something scripted happens" sort of encounter could follow.

    Say what now? I'm not defending anything. I'm just saying it's a game. My statement simply said they had to make Lore sacrifices to make a game. Swift travel, teleporting, magical in every sense of the term Bank Vaults, magic maps, radar... My character goes into battle carrying enough food and soup to feed a small army. Enough glass, pewter, pottery containers to make a racket that would be heard in Mordor. Power pots, magical bottles of 'Morale', disease pots... I can change weapons and armour in under a second in combat. People accept a lot of 'baloney' to get something playable. That's why it's a game not a simulator. If you disagree then fair enough, but one person's lore break is another person's playability. Really with HD the devs were between a rock and a hard place. I don't like it per se, but I can accept it because of the medium in which it's being presented.
    Want me to explain it in simpler terms? You're using "it's a game" as a catch-all excuse. There are common things that MMOs have in the way of game mechanics (several of which you've mentioned there) but content and storyline are a different matter. You're only making it worse by mentioning "not a simulator", that's another of those predictable phrases that people often use alongside "it's a game" even though nobody ever suggests it should be a sim.

    This I can get on board with to an extent. Totally agree with what you said about the Grey Company, that's just a poor show all round. I'd love it if there were dangerous non-instanced parts of this game that would result in almost certain death unless you went there in a group. And no, I don't mean Balrogs or Dragons either. Walking into a well fortified Uruk camp and being detected should be enough. But apparently I'm in a minority in wanting dangerous landscape stuff. The only thing that might cause issue is in trying to make an Epic Story that takes in the iconic locations and lets us (as in our characters) meet some of greatest peoples of ME. I think that's difficult to do without attributing some kind of 'more than regular' hero status. Not saying it's impossible and I'm not defending a position before you jump up and down on it - just noting a difficulty. So I guess I'm saying we will always be the bridesmaids at the wedding, but perhaps they could tone down our hotness. Or they could make us the bumbling idiots that have to continually be rescued by raids of NPCs.
    Glad we can agree more-or-less on something. However, meeting extraordinary people in Middle-earth isn't really such a problem that you have to be a superhero to do it. Having a bit of a destiny will do, or just being in the right place at the right time - it doesn't have to be a huge world-shaking "only you can save Middle-earth" kind of deal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Radbug View Post
    Well thanks for stating the obvious in your first sentence. And, yes there are some actual dangerous places - in the lower zones. Maybe I should have added 'some more' in front of 'dangerous non-instanced parts'. The last good area for that, on level, was LLG and how long ago was that?
    That particular solution really only works when the level cap has moved well beyond the level of the particular zone, or--in the case of LLG--by creating a carefully defined zone that characters have to go into deliberately. For more recent examples, I think war bands match your basic criteria, and those extend to the current cap areas.

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    Pretty much everything is LORE-breaking already in this game. Breaking Helms-Deep wont do so much damage.

  24. #374

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    Quote Originally Posted by radbug View Post
    so i guess i'm saying we will always be the bridesmaids at the wedding, but perhaps they could tone down our hotness.




    **********
    love it :d
    Last edited by HeirOfNumenor; Aug 21 2013 at 04:49 PM.
    "The world weighs on my shoulders, but what am I to do? You sometimes drive me crazy, but I worry about you. I know it makes no difference to what you're going through, but I see the tip of the iceberg, and I worry about you"

  25. #375
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Middle-earth
    Posts
    1,700
    Quote Originally Posted by Radbug View Post
    Which was my point entirely.
    So to recap, you're fine with battling and defeating characters like Sauron and the Witch-king, as long as we don't actually kill them with the flimsy excuse of an NPC drama sequence doing it for us at the end of the fight after we've battered their morale to dust?

    Just so I know what's going through your mind.
    [I]In the sea without lees standeth the Bird of Hermes.
    [/I][I]When all his feathers be from him gone, He standeth still here as a stone.
    Here is now both white and red, And all so the stone to quicken the dead[/I][I].
    The Bird of Hermes is my name, Eating my wings to make me tame.[/I]

 

 
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