Kinda sad this discussion, people proclaming brakes of the lore. the book of Tolkien is n t the bible, nor this game is real life, nor is the story a form of evangelism. Just enjoy the ppl of turbine making another expansion to the game for us, quit the childish yes-no discussion, join up for the battle and meet eachother there. When your e having problems with Turbine's artistically freedom of adding our (not in the storie of Tolkien existing) toons to the story of Middle Earth I would like to suggest you to toddle off and try to make a decent multiplayer out of the lord of the rings yourself. I dont expect we actually will ever hear from you again.
All in all, just enjoy the game and quit the preeching about lore breaking.
So far I think they are doing a reasonable job balancing commercial imperatives and customer expectations against the, for want of a better phrase, intellectual property.
I'll be stalking the J.R.R. Tolkien subforum in hopes of seeing such magic happen again.
Now I'm off to read all those books on literary criticism I've refused to read in class. Who knew a video game forum could do that to you
Seems to me like it's the perfect book for comparing to Lord of the Rings lore discussions (though generally speaking people tend to agree more with each other on LotR lore).
Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, totally worn out & proclaiming "WOW, what a ride!"
[I][FONT=comic sans ms][COLOR=#ffff00]Continuing the never ending battle to keep Lobelia Sackville-Baggins in check[/COLOR][/FONT][/I]
Letting us take part in the Battle of the Hornburg is a teeny weeny lore break compared to everything else in the game. If you want something that adheres to the lore of the book in totality, I'm afraid the only place you will find that is in the books. Different mediums require different takes, especially games. If the game adhered to the exact letter of the lore there would be no game as no one would want to play it. If the Lord of the Rings is so precious to you, and you are not happy or prepared to accept lore breaks/tweaks/bending, why are you playing a mmorpg BASED on the Lord of the Rings? Games by their very nature have to bend their source's IP and lore obtusely in order to be a game.
This is not the Lord of the Rings; it is a game BASED on the Lord of the Rings. No one should be so naive as to expect it to be exactly the same as the books.
Last edited by Ellieni; Aug 12 2013 at 07:54 PM.
Characters such as Superman and Spiderman are essentially modern day mythical characters. They are modern day archetypes entrenched in western society collective consciousness and culture. With each interpretation of these characters' stories, if created or authorised by the legal rights holder, society deems the resulting film, comic etc to be legitimate. It is only when someone not affliated to the rights holder creates a story/interpretation that we deem it to be fan fiction.
Every year there are numerous books released as 'sequels' to well known and no longer copyrighted 19th century classics (e.g. the Darcy craze **shudders**). Society and the book industry do not term these sequel novels 'fan fiction' if they are published by a known publisher. Whereas if they are written by an unknown writer and are published by a tiny publisher or self published, these novels are given the label 'fan fiction'. People in general are not interested in them and will avoid like the plague. Fan fiction has an amateur and unprofessional connotation. It is almost a derogatory label.
So using the above logic, LOTRO is not fan fiction: it is a legitimate interpretation as it is authorised by the rights holder.
Society has always had stories, myths and legends; and society has always had different versions of the same legend, myth, story. In the olden days, when a particular story/song was told by a bard, priest, elder etc, even if it was a different version than the people had heard before, it was probably deemed to be a 'legitimate' version by the people listening simply because of the person telling it. We look to others to legitimise stories, no matter how arbitary that actually is.
It's interesting to note that the public perception of the issues clashes with the legal reality: LOTRO is, as you said, legally legitimate and yet a big portion of the audience think that it violates some fundamental quality of the original work.
That being said, I'm tempted to mention the "moral rights" portion of intellectual property that try to touch upon that very abstract sense of a creation's ethical integrity, but I'm only familiar with its french version - which even allows for heirs of an author whose work has fallen into the public domain to sue whoever is deemed to disrespect it (whatever that means).
So even the law ends up reinforcing the idea that The One True Text (accept no substitutes!) is the be-all and end-all of whatever might be grativating around it.
I'm at a standstill on this point because of 2 different ideas I have on the subject:
1. Tolkien spent the better part of his life writing this story, and stated in many letters he takes pity on anyone that can't separate the fantasy of his work with real life and family(like many of us that take this game too seriously) However the thought of being in a "big battle" in HD with multiple hobbits along with elves and dwarves helping each other is truly a slap in the face to Tolkien and there is NO DOUBT in my mind he would be doing EVERYTHING he could to shut this game down after the money-pinching fiasco this game has become in the past few years.....HOWEVER
2. MMOs are a business, and businesses must make money....so I understand WB/TURBINE incorporating everything they can to keep revenue coming in.
Lets look at RoR: Quite possibly the most disappointing expansion to come out in the history of MMO's, I mean we finally get to battle in ROHAN! And what do we get
- Beautful Landscape and Mounted Combat- Check
- Lots of quests about the ongoing troubles of Rohan- Check
- Long awaited instances that focus on the timeline of The Hobbit movie that have nothing to do with Rohan- WHY?(because a gigabillion people went to watch the Hobbit and a smart business would capitalize on that market)
So in short I'm torn between supporting a game I've played since 2007 that has done such a remarkable job immersing me in Middle Earth, yet has slowly declined with the times and has resorted to cringe-worthy microtransactions to keep our wonderful world alive OR walking away out of repsect for a man that has written the greatest story in history that would be sickened by the direction this game is going....
What to do?
Bace- R14 Suicidal Minstrel and Kamikaze Karaoke King, Firefoot
Seriously - some graphic novels have considerable artistic merit but typical superhero comics don't, they're a variety of lurid 'pulp' fiction so they're not really worthy of the same respect.
That's simply because fanfic tends to be really, really bad. It doesn't have to be (a derivative work can have merit in its own right) but overwhelmingly, it's awful. The only definitive thing about is that it's unlicensed and hence can't be commercially published without whomever published it being open to legal challenge by the rights-holder. (Which in our case would be the Tolkien Estate, I believe, as they retain all rights to the works in print).Every year there are numerous books released as 'sequels' to well known and no longer copyrighted 19th century classics (e.g. the Darcy craze **shudders**). Society and the book industry do not term these sequel novels 'fan fiction' if they are published by a known publisher. Whereas if they are written by an unknown writer and are published by a tiny publisher or self published, these novels are given the label 'fan fiction'. People in general are not interested in them and will avoid like the plague. Fan fiction has an amateur and unprofessional connotation. It is almost a derogatory label.
It's a commercial treatment that's been deemed acceptable by the rights-holder. It's therefore 'legitimate' in the strict sense that the laws involved have been respected - that doesn't necessitate it being 'legitimate' in any wider sense. There, we're into the merits of the artistic treatment, which are a matter for debate.So using the above logic, LOTRO is not fan fiction: it is a legitimate interpretation as it is authorised by the rights holder.
No, we don't, Not in that sense. If some ancient bard told a tale badly then his audience would grow restive, and might mutter darkly about his version. We decide for ourselves whether we consider a retelling to be a legitimate interpretation. Don't conflate that with the narrow legalistic sense of something being a legitimate derived work for purposes of intellectual property law.Society has always had stories, myths and legends; and society has always had different versions of the same legend, myth, story. In the olden days, when a particular story/song was told by a bard, priest, elder etc, even if it was a different version than the people had heard before, it was probably deemed to be a 'legitimate' version by the people listening simply because of the person telling it. We look to others to legitimise stories, no matter how arbitary that actually is.
There are probably more people world wide who consider the Lord of the Rings movies to be THE LORD OF THE RINGS than those who don't. If something based on an IP is created legally by a person or company with standing in society, the majority generally accept it as canon.
Last edited by Ellieni; Aug 13 2013 at 07:26 AM.
The purpose of this thread was first to take some load off of the "Big Battles 20 Questions" thread so it wouldn't get locked.
The 2 other reasons i started this thread was too see what ways we could find to bypass that obstacle (which doesn't go hand in hand with the lore) and that i wanted to have a general idea of what people are thinking (whether they were ok or not).
By the 4-5th page i understood there wasn't much to be added.
To me it only matters whether in this universe we're in thing make sense.
Cause if you think about it it's a LOTR-universe created by Turbine.
When i was thinking on starting LOTRO, one of the things that got me pumped was that i'd get to fight in the Helm's Deep Battle (to me the most crucial battle and the one i'd want to participate most in).
And look at me now : after 2 whole years i'm still looking forward to new stuff and expansions.
But, back to my point, it's all about things making sense. If you had -like somebody else suggested here- people guarding the women and children, that would make no sense at all (other than that it is also a Lore-Break and i don't know why it was not recognized as such).
Since, in the story we have so far participated, that (us fighting in Helm's Deep) makes sense story-wise, i don't care if it breaks lore. It's quite possibly the last Lore-Break we'll have for a long time.
Necessary Evil as we say...
Now about those preorders...
And I think that they'd be being snobs to say so. I wouldn't call it classic English literature (classic fantasy, yes) but I think it has its literary merits. If you look back at what I said before, you might notice that I think graphic novels can be serious works of art in their own right - there's just a hell of a difference between those and the average comic-book, just as there's an appreciable difference between LOTR and the average fantasy novel.Many well respected critics think the Lord of the Rings is awful, terribly written, and do not believe it deserves to be classed as literature. They would class it in the same category as graphic novels.
The jury's out on that one - we'll have to wait and see if they can do justice to it. Given what a mess George Lucas had made of his own creation, though, the bar's not set very high. 'Canon' is a funny thing with regard to Star Wars - George Lucas says that only the extant six movies are canon. That would mean the Disney ones won't be, but I'm perfectly happy to leave that whole debate to the Star Wars fans. It's going to get uglySo you are saying the new Disney Star Wars films created with little to no input from their original creator will not be 'legitimate in the wider sense'? Will not be canon and society at large will not accept them as sequels?
The movies most certainly aren't 'THE LORD OF THE RINGS', though, so that's a moot point. The only thing that's canon there are the three books, since for the written word 'canon' specifically means something that's generally accepted as a genuine work written by a particular author. That's got absolutely nothing to do with whether a derivative work is legitimate in a legal sense, or anyone's view of its legitimacy as an adaptation in a wider sense. I don't want to get into a debate about the 'legitimacy' of the LOTR movies in that wider sense, either.There are probably more people world wide who consider the Lord of the Rings movies to be THE LORD OF THE RINGS than those who don't. If something based on an IP is created legally by a person or company with standing in society, the majority generally accept it as canon.
Yep its going to be a lore break.
If you can't live with that, you're free to uninstall the game and never return. I assure you, no one will miss you.
If you're fan of IP, sad new for you: you must limit yourselves to books, because everything else was, is, and will be, a lore break.
Don't let the door hit you while you're leaving.
Last edited by BirdofHermes; Aug 14 2013 at 05:27 PM.
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