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  1. #301
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angadan View Post
    Getting the feeling all positions have been staked out, all significant contributions made, for the time being, and now we're just recycling our varying opinions back and forth at each other, over and over. There is an evolution that comes with debating, and all who come into the discussion with open mind will find their position shifting, even if it be ever so slightly, as others make valid points. After some time of this, however, the shifting stops and everyone settles into positions in which they are comfortable. I think we're at that point. For that reason, I'm out of this particular thread. Thank you all for the insights, it has been great fun.
    Signed.

    It's been fun, ladies and gents.

  2. #302

    Yes finally Hornburg!

    Kinda sad this discussion, people proclaming brakes of the lore. the book of Tolkien is n t the bible, nor this game is real life, nor is the story a form of evangelism. Just enjoy the ppl of turbine making another expansion to the game for us, quit the childish yes-no discussion, join up for the battle and meet eachother there. When your e having problems with Turbine's artistically freedom of adding our (not in the storie of Tolkien existing) toons to the story of Middle Earth I would like to suggest you to toddle off and try to make a decent multiplayer out of the lord of the rings yourself. I dont expect we actually will ever hear from you again.
    All in all, just enjoy the game and quit the preeching about lore breaking.

  3. #303
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    Quote Originally Posted by Herwulf View Post
    Kinda sad this discussion, people proclaming brakes of the lore. the book of Tolkien is n t the bible, nor this game is real life, nor is the story a form of evangelism. Just enjoy the ppl of turbine making another expansion to the game for us, quit the childish yes-no discussion, join up for the battle and meet eachother there. When your e having problems with Turbine's artistically freedom of adding our (not in the storie of Tolkien existing) toons to the story of Middle Earth I would like to suggest you to toddle off and try to make a decent multiplayer out of the lord of the rings yourself. I dont expect we actually will ever hear from you again.
    All in all, just enjoy the game and quit the preeching about lore breaking.
    Hardly anyone is preaching. We all have our lore-lines, even you and it's a fair debate as to where on the spectrum between total adherence to selling M60 heavy machine guns in the Store you draw it.

    So far I think they are doing a reasonable job balancing commercial imperatives and customer expectations against the, for want of a better phrase, intellectual property.

  4. #304
    Quote Originally Posted by Angadan View Post
    Getting the feeling all positions have been staked out, all significant contributions made, for the time being, and now we're just recycling our varying opinions back and forth at each other, over and over. There is an evolution that comes with debating, and all who come into the discussion with open mind will find their position shifting, even if it be ever so slightly, as others make valid points. After some time of this, however, the shifting stops and everyone settles into positions in which they are comfortable. I think we're at that point. For that reason, I'm out of this particular thread. Thank you all for the insights, it has been great fun.
    A very wise observation and conclusion to an awesome thread. Fun has been had indeed.

    I'll be stalking the J.R.R. Tolkien subforum in hopes of seeing such magic happen again.

    Now I'm off to read all those books on literary criticism I've refused to read in class. Who knew a video game forum could do that to you
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  5. #305
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    Quote Originally Posted by Herwulf View Post
    Kinda sad this discussion, people proclaming brakes of the lore. the book of Tolkien is n t the bible, nor this game is real life, nor is the story a form of evangelism. Just enjoy the ppl of turbine making another expansion to the game for us, quit the childish yes-no discussion, join up for the battle and meet eachother there. When your e having problems with Turbine's artistically freedom of adding our (not in the storie of Tolkien existing) toons to the story of Middle Earth I would like to suggest you to toddle off and try to make a decent multiplayer out of the lord of the rings yourself. I dont expect we actually will ever hear from you again.
    All in all, just enjoy the game and quit the preeching about lore breaking.
    It's odd you give the bible as an example, when nobody can agree on what the correct version is or how to interpret it. There are thousands of christian denominations disagreeing with each other on various aspects.
    Seems to me like it's the perfect book for comparing to Lord of the Rings lore discussions (though generally speaking people tend to agree more with each other on LotR lore).
    [I]In the sea without lees standeth the Bird of Hermes.
    [/I][I]When all his feathers be from him gone, He standeth still here as a stone.
    Here is now both white and red, And all so the stone to quicken the dead[/I][I].
    The Bird of Hermes is my name, Eating my wings to make me tame.[/I]

  6. #306
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sapience View Post
    Of course we're not unaware. I think what you're saying, after six years of making the game, should all be assumed. Of course any player character that steps foot in Rohan would be a lore break. Obviously there were only a handful of non-Rohirrim present at the Battle of the Hornberg and none of them were you or I and we know that because they were named Aragorn, Gimli, and Legolas (sorry movie buffs, no Haldir). Obviously none of you should ever have stepped foot in the golden wood or Rivendell. Most of you couldn't go to the Shire (or leave it). Angmar and Forochell would have to go away. It wouldn't be a very fun game if most of the places people want to visit in Middle-earth were off limits because the lore says it is.

    So yes, we make decisions every day on how to include players in what we call "Big T" moments with full knowledge that if we adhere to the lore we have to skip over those areas entirely or, at best, make them cut-scenes. Fortunately we have people on this team who are responsible for keeping as true to the lore as possible while still affording us the ability to include players in areas the lore says they should never be. We make up stories to give you something to do because you cannot be Frodo. You don't 'die' in LOTRO because unless you are one of a very small number of beings you do not come back from the dead in Middle-earth. You do not fight "the" Balrog, you fight "a" balrog or a "fear" of "The" Balrog (depending on which raid you do). Only Gandalf slew Durin's Bane, but everyone wants to fight him in a video game. So we found a way to let you that wasn't entirely lore breaking.

    So yes, we are acutely aware of where the needs of making a video game intersect and occasionally conflict with being 100% lore accurate. When that happens we have people in this building as fiercely protective of the lore as any of you, probably more so, doing their best to make sure that when we have to have lore breaks they are done in ways that at least works within the spirit of the lore and Middle-earth without, hopefully, running roughshod over it (No eagle mounts!!).
    Quote Originally Posted by whheydt View Post
    Nice try, but no cigar. If you'd've left that one sentence out, it probably would have been sufficient, but you blew it by adding it in.
    WHH, I have to agree with Sapience on this one.
    Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, totally worn out & proclaiming "WOW, what a ride!"
    Continuing the never ending battle to keep Lobelia Sackville-Baggins in check

  7. #307
    Letting us take part in the Battle of the Hornburg is a teeny weeny lore break compared to everything else in the game. If you want something that adheres to the lore of the book in totality, I'm afraid the only place you will find that is in the books. Different mediums require different takes, especially games. If the game adhered to the exact letter of the lore there would be no game as no one would want to play it. If the Lord of the Rings is so precious to you, and you are not happy or prepared to accept lore breaks/tweaks/bending, why are you playing a mmorpg BASED on the Lord of the Rings? Games by their very nature have to bend their source's IP and lore obtusely in order to be a game.


    This is not the Lord of the Rings; it is a game BASED on the Lord of the Rings. No one should be so naive as to expect it to be exactly the same as the books.
    Last edited by Ellieni; Aug 12 2013 at 08:54 PM.

  8. #308
    screw lore.
    >>>> Why do I keep playing this game? <<<<

  9. #309
    Quote Originally Posted by Taravith View Post
    As a semi-related note, I propose an even more far-fetched theory: can we consider the narratives created by our characters through Turbine's settings as a form of collaborative fanfiction? (and are all myth narratives basically fanfiction?)
    A tricky question, even trickier to answer.

    Characters such as Superman and Spiderman are essentially modern day mythical characters. They are modern day archetypes entrenched in western society collective consciousness and culture. With each interpretation of these characters' stories, if created or authorised by the legal rights holder, society deems the resulting film, comic etc to be legitimate. It is only when someone not affliated to the rights holder creates a story/interpretation that we deem it to be fan fiction.

    Every year there are numerous books released as 'sequels' to well known and no longer copyrighted 19th century classics (e.g. the Darcy craze **shudders**). Society and the book industry do not term these sequel novels 'fan fiction' if they are published by a known publisher. Whereas if they are written by an unknown writer and are published by a tiny publisher or self published, these novels are given the label 'fan fiction'. People in general are not interested in them and will avoid like the plague. Fan fiction has an amateur and unprofessional connotation. It is almost a derogatory label.

    So using the above logic, LOTRO is not fan fiction: it is a legitimate interpretation as it is authorised by the rights holder.


    Society has always had stories, myths and legends; and society has always had different versions of the same legend, myth, story. In the olden days, when a particular story/song was told by a bard, priest, elder etc, even if it was a different version than the people had heard before, it was probably deemed to be a 'legitimate' version by the people listening simply because of the person telling it. We look to others to legitimise stories, no matter how arbitary that actually is.

  10. #310
    Quote Originally Posted by Ellieni View Post
    With each interpretation of these characters' stories, if created or authorised by the legal rights holder, society deems the resulting film, comic etc to be legitimate. It is only when someone not affliated to the rights holder creates a story/interpretation that we deem it to be fan fiction.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ellieni View Post
    So using the above logic, LOTRO is not fan fiction: it is a legitimate interpretation as it is authorised by the rights holder.
    I hadn't thought of considering the legitimacy problem through the lens of the law.
    It's interesting to note that the public perception of the issues clashes with the legal reality: LOTRO is, as you said, legally legitimate and yet a big portion of the audience think that it violates some fundamental quality of the original work.

    That being said, I'm tempted to mention the "moral rights" portion of intellectual property that try to touch upon that very abstract sense of a creation's ethical integrity, but I'm only familiar with its french version - which even allows for heirs of an author whose work has fallen into the public domain to sue whoever is deemed to disrespect it (whatever that means).

    So even the law ends up reinforcing the idea that The One True Text (accept no substitutes!) is the be-all and end-all of whatever might be grativating around it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Ellieni View Post
    Society and the book industry do not term these sequel novels 'fan fiction' if they are published by a known publisher. Whereas if they are written by an unknown writer and are published by a tiny publisher or self published, these novels are given the label 'fan fiction'. People in general are not interested in them and will avoid like the plague. Fan fiction has an amateur and unprofessional connotation. It is almost a derogatory label.
    It bothers me to use the term 'fanfiction' for the reasons you mentioned, but I can't seem to find a better term. And it shocks me, given how completely crucial "derivative creation" (sounds too legal-y) has been to our literary tradition throughout the ages, that we as a culture have ended up completely obscuring and denigrating it to the point where we have few tools to even talk and think about them.
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  11. #311
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    I'm at a standstill on this point because of 2 different ideas I have on the subject:

    1. Tolkien spent the better part of his life writing this story, and stated in many letters he takes pity on anyone that can't separate the fantasy of his work with real life and family(like many of us that take this game too seriously) However the thought of being in a "big battle" in HD with multiple hobbits along with elves and dwarves helping each other is truly a slap in the face to Tolkien and there is NO DOUBT in my mind he would be doing EVERYTHING he could to shut this game down after the money-pinching fiasco this game has become in the past few years.....HOWEVER

    2. MMOs are a business, and businesses must make money....so I understand WB/TURBINE incorporating everything they can to keep revenue coming in.

    Lets look at RoR: Quite possibly the most disappointing expansion to come out in the history of MMO's, I mean we finally get to battle in ROHAN! And what do we get

    - Beautful Landscape and Mounted Combat- Check
    - Lots of quests about the ongoing troubles of Rohan- Check
    - Long awaited instances that focus on the timeline of The Hobbit movie that have nothing to do with Rohan- WHY?(because a gigabillion people went to watch the Hobbit and a smart business would capitalize on that market)

    So in short I'm torn between supporting a game I've played since 2007 that has done such a remarkable job immersing me in Middle Earth, yet has slowly declined with the times and has resorted to cringe-worthy microtransactions to keep our wonderful world alive OR walking away out of repsect for a man that has written the greatest story in history that would be sickened by the direction this game is going....

    What to do?
    Bace- R14 Suicidal Minstrel and Kamikaze Karaoke King, Firefoot

  12. #312
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baritone View Post
    So in short I'm torn between supporting a game I've played since 2007 that has done such a remarkable job immersing me in Middle Earth, yet has slowly declined with the times and has resorted to cringe-worthy microtransactions to keep our wonderful world alive OR walking away out of repsect for a man that has written the greatest story in history that would be sickened by the direction this game is going....

    What to do?
    Well...*my* solution is that, other that the Epic Books (which it looks like will go through some of the BBs), I have a character that I am willing to run in Hornburg instances. He's a level 85 Hunter....from Rohan.

    Anyone else interested in all-Rohirrim runs?

  13. #313
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ellieni View Post
    A tricky question, even trickier to answer.

    Characters such as Superman and Spiderman are essentially modern day mythical characters. They are modern day archetypes entrenched in western society collective consciousness and culture. With each interpretation of these characters' stories, if created or authorised by the legal rights holder, society deems the resulting film, comic etc to be legitimate. It is only when someone not affliated to the rights holder creates a story/interpretation that we deem it to be fan fiction.
    Superman and Spiderman are, if anything, constructed modern-day myths. Genuine myths are different, there was an element of belief involved (at least originally) whereas we tend to get a bit worried about the mental state of anyone who believes in superheroes. In common with anything that attracts a following, die-hard fans of superhero comics have been known to have huge nerdy debates about what's canon, how faithful movie adaptations are etc. so that's pretty much the same thing as here - except we are at least discussing something that has to do with honest-to-goodness literature rather than something that has pictures and words like 'KAPOW' in big writing.

    Seriously - some graphic novels have considerable artistic merit but typical superhero comics don't, they're a variety of lurid 'pulp' fiction so they're not really worthy of the same respect.

    Every year there are numerous books released as 'sequels' to well known and no longer copyrighted 19th century classics (e.g. the Darcy craze **shudders**). Society and the book industry do not term these sequel novels 'fan fiction' if they are published by a known publisher. Whereas if they are written by an unknown writer and are published by a tiny publisher or self published, these novels are given the label 'fan fiction'. People in general are not interested in them and will avoid like the plague. Fan fiction has an amateur and unprofessional connotation. It is almost a derogatory label.
    That's simply because fanfic tends to be really, really bad. It doesn't have to be (a derivative work can have merit in its own right) but overwhelmingly, it's awful. The only definitive thing about is that it's unlicensed and hence can't be commercially published without whomever published it being open to legal challenge by the rights-holder. (Which in our case would be the Tolkien Estate, I believe, as they retain all rights to the works in print).

    So using the above logic, LOTRO is not fan fiction: it is a legitimate interpretation as it is authorised by the rights holder.
    It's a commercial treatment that's been deemed acceptable by the rights-holder. It's therefore 'legitimate' in the strict sense that the laws involved have been respected - that doesn't necessitate it being 'legitimate' in any wider sense. There, we're into the merits of the artistic treatment, which are a matter for debate.

    Society has always had stories, myths and legends; and society has always had different versions of the same legend, myth, story. In the olden days, when a particular story/song was told by a bard, priest, elder etc, even if it was a different version than the people had heard before, it was probably deemed to be a 'legitimate' version by the people listening simply because of the person telling it. We look to others to legitimise stories, no matter how arbitary that actually is.
    No, we don't, Not in that sense. If some ancient bard told a tale badly then his audience would grow restive, and might mutter darkly about his version. We decide for ourselves whether we consider a retelling to be a legitimate interpretation. Don't conflate that with the narrow legalistic sense of something being a legitimate derived work for purposes of intellectual property law.

  14. #314
    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    Superman and Spiderman are, if anything, constructed modern-day myths.
    Exactly, just as Middle-earth has been constructed as a myth.


    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    Genuine myths are different, there was an element of belief involved (at least originally) whereas we tend to get a bit worried about the mental state of anyone who believes in superheroes. In common with anything that attracts a following, die-hard fans of superhero comics have been known to have huge nerdy debates about what's canon, how faithful movie adaptations are etc. so that's pretty much the same thing as here - except we are at least discussing something that has to do with honest-to-goodness literature rather than something that has pictures and words like 'KAPOW' in big writing. Seriously - some graphic novels have considerable artistic merit but typical superhero comics don't, they're a variety of lurid 'pulp' fiction so they're not really worthy of the same respect.
    Many well respected critics think the Lord of the Rings is awful, terribly written, and do not believe it deserves to be classed as literature. They would class it in the same category as graphic novels.


    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    t's a commercial treatment that's been deemed acceptable by the rights-holder. It's therefore 'legitimate' in the strict sense that the laws involved have been respected - that doesn't necessitate it being 'legitimate' in any wider sense. There, we're into the merits of the artistic treatment, which are a matter for debate.
    So you are saying the new Disney Star Wars films created with little to no input from their original creator will not be 'legitimate in the wider sense'? Will not be canon and society at large will not accept them as sequels?

    There are probably more people world wide who consider the Lord of the Rings movies to be THE LORD OF THE RINGS than those who don't. If something based on an IP is created legally by a person or company with standing in society, the majority generally accept it as canon.
    Last edited by Ellieni; Aug 13 2013 at 08:26 AM.

  15. #315
    The purpose of this thread was first to take some load off of the "Big Battles 20 Questions" thread so it wouldn't get locked.
    The 2 other reasons i started this thread was too see what ways we could find to bypass that obstacle (which doesn't go hand in hand with the lore) and that i wanted to have a general idea of what people are thinking (whether they were ok or not).

    By the 4-5th page i understood there wasn't much to be added.

    To me it only matters whether in this universe we're in thing make sense.
    Cause if you think about it it's a LOTR-universe created by Turbine.
    When i was thinking on starting LOTRO, one of the things that got me pumped was that i'd get to fight in the Helm's Deep Battle (to me the most crucial battle and the one i'd want to participate most in).
    And look at me now : after 2 whole years i'm still looking forward to new stuff and expansions.

    But, back to my point, it's all about things making sense. If you had -like somebody else suggested here- people guarding the women and children, that would make no sense at all (other than that it is also a Lore-Break and i don't know why it was not recognized as such).
    Since, in the story we have so far participated, that (us fighting in Helm's Deep) makes sense story-wise, i don't care if it breaks lore. It's quite possibly the last Lore-Break we'll have for a long time.
    Necessary Evil as we say...


    Now about those preorders...

  16. #316
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ellieni View Post
    Exactly, just as Middle-earth has been constructed as a myth.
    Yes, but that's not the same as being a mythical character. A character has to be from a 'genuine' myth for that, otherwise they're just plain old fiction.

    Many well respected critics think the Lord of the Rings is awful, terribly written, and do not believe it deserves to be classed as literature. They would class it in the same category as graphic novels.
    And I think that they'd be being snobs to say so. I wouldn't call it classic English literature (classic fantasy, yes) but I think it has its literary merits. If you look back at what I said before, you might notice that I think graphic novels can be serious works of art in their own right - there's just a hell of a difference between those and the average comic-book, just as there's an appreciable difference between LOTR and the average fantasy novel.

    So you are saying the new Disney Star Wars films created with little to no input from their original creator will not be 'legitimate in the wider sense'? Will not be canon and society at large will not accept them as sequels?
    The jury's out on that one - we'll have to wait and see if they can do justice to it. Given what a mess George Lucas had made of his own creation, though, the bar's not set very high. 'Canon' is a funny thing with regard to Star Wars - George Lucas says that only the extant six movies are canon. That would mean the Disney ones won't be, but I'm perfectly happy to leave that whole debate to the Star Wars fans. It's going to get ugly

    There are probably more people world wide who consider the Lord of the Rings movies to be THE LORD OF THE RINGS than those who don't. If something based on an IP is created legally by a person or company with standing in society, the majority generally accept it as canon.
    The movies most certainly aren't 'THE LORD OF THE RINGS', though, so that's a moot point. The only thing that's canon there are the three books, since for the written word 'canon' specifically means something that's generally accepted as a genuine work written by a particular author. That's got absolutely nothing to do with whether a derivative work is legitimate in a legal sense, or anyone's view of its legitimacy as an adaptation in a wider sense. I don't want to get into a debate about the 'legitimacy' of the LOTR movies in that wider sense, either.

  17. #317
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vincent_Price View Post
    It's quite possibly the last Lore-Break we'll have for a long time.
    You have got to be kidding.

  18. #318
    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    'genuine' myth
    Well now, isn't that interesting. I'm still trying to decide whether it's a pleonasm or an oxymoron.
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  19. #319
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taravith View Post
    Well now, isn't that interesting. I'm still trying to decide whether it's a pleonasm or an oxymoron.
    It's neither. Didn't you notice the inverted commas? 'Genuine' as in not a latterday construction, having genuinely ancient provenance. The sort of myth Tolkien wanted to emulate, rather than the likes of Arthurian myth which had been overwhelmed by later constructed myth which had accreted round it.

  20. #320
    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    'Genuine' as in not a latterday construction, having genuinely ancient provenance.
    That's what I inferred. But "ancientness" has never been part of the definition of "myth" so it's interesting that you'd consider it a fundamental characteristic.
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  21. #321
    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    You have got to be kidding.
    why? Can you give me another example for future expansions (Gondor, Wilderland, Rhun or Harad landscape, but NOT Mordor, since that will be quite likely the last expansion), that will have "necessary evil" Lore Breaks like that?

  22. #322
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    Yep its going to be a lore break.

    If you can't live with that, you're free to uninstall the game and never return. I assure you, no one will miss you.

    If you're fan of IP, sad new for you: you must limit yourselves to books, because everything else was, is, and will be, a lore break.

    Don't let the door hit you while you're leaving.
    fire rk is just hunt clone without evade, ports and lower mits, or LM clone without CC, pets and 1 less gear slot.
    thx for destroying yellow line and the entire class with it

  23. #323
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    Quote Originally Posted by Taravith View Post
    That's what I inferred. But "ancientness" has never been part of the definition of "myth" so it's interesting that you'd consider it a fundamental characteristic.
    The key thing is that myths are part of a belief system and it's that which has changed. True myth-making has long ceased because of the element of belief that's involved. On the whole, people really don't think that way any more, they don't invest in that degree of magical thinking. What we do have are constructed myths, stories which are mythic in character but written from scratch as mere entertainment, but not something that's actually believed in - so superheroes, for example, are a sort of modern substitute for mythology. Godlike powers, monsters and exciting epic battles - all the fun of mythology, but without the belief. Tolkien's Silmarillion is an exercise in the purposeful construction of a whole body of myth, but even in fantasy it's a rare beast because that tends to come across as hokey. If you want a 'genuine' myth, though, one that emerged naturally from a belief system, you almost invariably have to go back to something that's come down to us from ancient times when people thought that way. Hence the association - not a definition, but a practical observation.

  24. #324
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vincent_Price View Post
    why? Can you give me another example for future expansions (Gondor, Wilderland, Rhun or Harad landscape, but NOT Mordor, since that will be quite likely the last expansion), that will have "necessary evil" Lore Breaks like that?
    The obvious one would be more Elves and Dwarves turning up at Minas Tirith.

  25. #325
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Middle-earth
    Posts
    1,700
    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    The obvious one would be more Elves and Dwarves turning up at Minas Tirith.
    Don't forget walking alongside the Grey Company at the Dimholt. And standing at the Stone of Erech with Aragorn. And then miraculously still managing to be besieged in Minas Tirith in one instance, but landing with Aragorn & the south Gondor fleet host in another.
    Last edited by BirdofHermes; Aug 14 2013 at 06:27 PM.
    [I]In the sea without lees standeth the Bird of Hermes.
    [/I][I]When all his feathers be from him gone, He standeth still here as a stone.
    Here is now both white and red, And all so the stone to quicken the dead[/I][I].
    The Bird of Hermes is my name, Eating my wings to make me tame.[/I]

 

 
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