We have detected that cookies are not enabled on your browser. Please enable cookies to ensure the proper experience.
Results 1 to 25 of 401

Hybrid View

  1. #1

    At last, is the Big Battle of Helm's Deep Lore-Breaking?

    At last! The thread everyone was waiting for. Created to pull of some load from the "20 Questions regarding Big Battles" thread and a few others.

    My personal opinion is that the new Instances (yet to be played) are NOT Lore-Breaking.
    At least not in the ridiculous manner some other features were asked along the way to be implemented (Eagle Mounts, Cable TV in Kinhouses etc).

    And let me explain myself a bit better.

    Most of the characters in LOTRO have participated in a cornucopia of quests, in favor of the Free Peoples. And have done many deeds, and run for many personal errands of members of the fellowship and other known figures (Elrond, Gloin, Dwalin, Arwen and the 2 sons of Elrond etc).
    Now if that character -that did SO many things for all those key-figures of the Third Age- did not exist, or at least Tolkien didn't mention, why is it so bad to have them fight a battle that is SO EPIC?

    This is not a "two wrongs make a right" situation/argument. Not at all. It's just it was happening from day C (for example when you spoke to Frodo at Rivendell). It's pretty unlikely your character wasn't mentioned in any Middle-Earth history book, if he did so much (excluding of course all the raids , from Draigoch, to sending the Witch King back to Minas Morgul. If he vanquished all this evil he should be better known than Theodred for example - IMO).
    The only situation i see that a level 85 would justifiably be unknown, is if he only killed landscape mobs (was a true hunter renegade that did no errands and was always lurking in the shadows avoiding NPCs) or participated in Festivals the whole time (in which case he would be well-known among Hobbits! Huzzzaaaaah!!!).


    Anyway here's a good (I believe) trick that even our poor Dwarves, Elves and Hobbits participate in the battle :

    It is known that among the defenders of Helm's Deep were old men and children.
    It would be great if we could have Aragorn/Legolas/Gimli, you know our old buddies from back in the day, secretly sneak us in and dress in armour, and they'd go on defending us to nosey Rohirrim saying, for dwarves and hobbits "It's just a kid, nothing to see here. Move on - move on!".

    It could totally work for Hobbits. Dwarves are quite more difficult to work around (with the beards and all), but i'm sure we could think something out.
    As for elves, the only problem is the pointy ears. Can be solved easily.


    What do yee think?
    Last edited by Vincent_Price; Aug 07 2013 at 06:02 PM. Reason: A few typos here , some commas there...you know...

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Posts
    316
    There's no need to follow every word of the books. Our characters are heroes living in Tolkien's imaginary world, they're not the actual characters of the books.

    Peter Jackson had elves in the movies... you could say that Turbine has a similar "creative license" to do the same thing.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    10,510
    Quote Originally Posted by BackAgainAndThere View Post
    Peter Jackson had elves in the movies... you could say that Turbine has a similar "creative license" to do the same thing.
    Now THAT, I think, is the nauseating justification it has ever been my displeasure to read.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    10,510
    I think including any and all player characters in the Battle of the Hornburg IS a major lore break.

    However, if Turbine were to just come out and say, "You know what? It IS a lore break, and we acknowledge that. We've spent a large 'lore cookie' and we did it deliberately. We couldn't find another way to do it without upsetting too many players, so we bit the bullet and decided to let the player characters in." I could accept that. But I can't accept it unless they are willing to step up and be honest about why they did it and admitting that they knowingly broke lore to do it.

    It's not like Turbine is unaware of the debates over the point.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Posts
    12,677
    Quote Originally Posted by whheydt View Post
    I think including any and all player characters in the Battle of the Hornburg IS a major lore break.
    Sure, but a thoroughly expected one, in my opinion. This expansion centers about an iconic battle, and requiring players to park the characters we've invested hundreds (or thousands!) of hours playing while we skin up as Generic Rohirrim #26 is a bridge too far for an entertainment company.

    But I can't accept it unless they are willing to step up and be honest about why they did it and admitting that they knowingly broke lore to do it.
    I still don't accept Rune-keepers as appropriate for this setting. But that opinion isn't really worth much in the grand scheme of things, and you know what? I held out for a year, but then started an RK and have had fun with him. He's level 85 .

    Khafar

  6. #6
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    3,192
    If people really want to complain about lore breaking, then please delete any Hobbit characters you have, ESPECIALLY if they are female, because - other than Sam, Frodo, Merry, Pippin or Bilbo (or Gollum if you want to count him) - no other Hobbits should be outside of the Shire or Stoor.

    Oh, and you definitely can't have a Dwarf and an Elf character on the same account because they don't work together, so that's lore breaking too.

    If you have any Dwarf Minstrels, delete them too, because Dwarves don't heal, they fight, or work (this goes for Runekeepers too).

    If you have anything other than a Hobbit Burglar, delete them. There was no mention of Human Burglars in the books. But then again, there shouldn't be Hobbit Burglars either (see first sentence).

    Don't enter Moria, because it wasn't "officially" reclaimed until after Sauron was defeated.

    Never enter the Golden Wood on any of your characters, because you would be breaking the lore. Only the Fellowship is permitted to enter there.

    Don't ever run the instance where you go up against Saruman because that never happened in the books.

    I could go on, but the point I am trying to get across is that IT'S A GAME based on a FICTIONAL story. You have to have some leeway, otherwise what are they going to do? Post a notice and say "Hobbits and Elves can't enter any Helm's Deep instances because it would break the lore!". Yeah, I'm sure that would go over like a lead balloon.

    If you don't like it, don't take any characters that you feel are "lore breaking" into Helm's Deep, but don't keep me from taking mine there.
    Last edited by Elderban; Aug 07 2013 at 11:04 PM. Reason: Typos

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Khafar View Post
    Sure, but a thoroughly expected one, in my opinion. This expansion centers about an iconic battle, and requiring players to park the characters we've invested hundreds (or thousands!) of hours playing while we skin up as Generic Rohirrim #26 is a bridge too far for an entertainment company.

    I still don't accept Rune-keepers as appropriate for this setting. But that opinion isn't really worth much in the grand scheme of things, and you know what? I held out for a year, but then started an RK and have had fun with him. He's level 85 .

    Khafar
    Hm. The battle was iconic? Only for movie fans. It was a large percentage of the money and screen-time poured into Jackson's trilogy. The movie adaptation is an amazing movie-experience, I bought it on DVD then later on extended Blu-Ray... but Jackson's exercise of a creative license doesn't establish lore. Yes, the fight was predominant in the movies.

    But the books? It was hardly a blip. The battle is being made epic in LOTRO simply because that's the sort of thing that the consumer is expected to want to consume, not because it had much to do with lore.
    Leader of [URL="http://livingcraftmanshps.guildlaunch.com"]Living Craftmanships[/URL] (Arkenstone)

  8. #8
    Sapience is offline Former Community Manager & Harbinger of Soon
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    9,519
    Quote Originally Posted by whheydt View Post
    I think including any and all player characters in the Battle of the Hornburg IS a major lore break.

    However, if Turbine were to just come out and say, "You know what? It IS a lore break, and we acknowledge that. We've spent a large 'lore cookie' and we did it deliberately. We couldn't find another way to do it without upsetting too many players, so we bit the bullet and decided to let the player characters in." I could accept that. But I can't accept it unless they are willing to step up and be honest about why they did it and admitting that they knowingly broke lore to do it.

    It's not like Turbine is unaware of the debates over the point.
    Of course we're not unaware. I think what you're saying, after six years of making the game, should all be assumed. Of course any player character that steps foot in Rohan would be a lore break. Obviously there were only a handful of non-Rohirrim present at the Battle of the Hornberg and none of them were you or I and we know that because they were named Aragorn, Gimli, and Legolas (sorry movie buffs, no Haldir). Obviously none of you should ever have stepped foot in the golden wood or Rivendell. Most of you couldn't go to the Shire (or leave it). Angmar and Forochell would have to go away. It wouldn't be a very fun game if most of the places people want to visit in Middle-earth were off limits because the lore says it is.

    So yes, we make decisions every day on how to include players in what we call "Big T" moments with full knowledge that if we adhere to the lore we have to skip over those areas entirely or, at best, make them cut-scenes. Fortunately we have people on this team who are responsible for keeping as true to the lore as possible while still affording us the ability to include players in areas the lore says they should never be. We make up stories to give you something to do because you cannot be Frodo. You don't 'die' in LOTRO because unless you are one of a very small number of beings you do not come back from the dead in Middle-earth. You do not fight "the" Balrog, you fight "a" balrog or a "fear" of "The" Balrog (depending on which raid you do). Only Gandalf slew Durin's Bane, but everyone wants to fight him in a video game. So we found a way to let you that wasn't entirely lore breaking.

    So yes, we are acutely aware of where the needs of making a video game intersect and occasionally conflict with being 100% lore accurate. When that happens we have people in this building as fiercely protective of the lore as any of you, probably more so, doing their best to make sure that when we have to have lore breaks they are done in ways that at least works within the spirit of the lore and Middle-earth without, hopefully, running roughshod over it (No eagle mounts!!).

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    10,510
    Quote Originally Posted by Sapience View Post
    So we found a way to let you that wasn't entirely lore breaking.
    Nice try, but no cigar. If you'd've left that one sentence out, it probably would have been sufficient, but you blew it by adding it in.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Posts
    805
    Quote Originally Posted by Sapience View Post
    Of course we're not unaware. I think what you're saying, after six years of making the game, should all be assumed. Of course any player character that steps foot in Rohan would be a lore break. Obviously there were only a handful of non-Rohirrim present at the Battle of the Hornberg and none of them were you or I and we know that because they were named Aragorn, Gimli, and Legolas (sorry movie buffs, no Haldir). Obviously none of you should ever have stepped foot in the golden wood or Rivendell. Most of you couldn't go to the Shire (or leave it). Angmar and Forochell would have to go away. It wouldn't be a very fun game if most of the places people want to visit in Middle-earth were off limits because the lore says it is.

    So yes, we make decisions every day on how to include players in what we call "Big T" moments with full knowledge that if we adhere to the lore we have to skip over those areas entirely or, at best, make them cut-scenes. Fortunately we have people on this team who are responsible for keeping as true to the lore as possible while still affording us the ability to include players in areas the lore says they should never be. We make up stories to give you something to do because you cannot be Frodo. You don't 'die' in LOTRO because unless you are one of a very small number of beings you do not come back from the dead in Middle-earth. You do not fight "the" Balrog, you fight "a" balrog or a "fear" of "The" Balrog (depending on which raid you do). Only Gandalf slew Durin's Bane, but everyone wants to fight him in a video game. So we found a way to let you that wasn't entirely lore breaking.

    So yes, we are acutely aware of where the needs of making a video game intersect and occasionally conflict with being 100% lore accurate. When that happens we have people in this building as fiercely protective of the lore as any of you, probably more so, doing their best to make sure that when we have to have lore breaks they are done in ways that at least works within the spirit of the lore and Middle-earth without, hopefully, running roughshod over it (No eagle mounts!!).
    Hopefully this post is a herald of information finally being released about the upcoming expansion very soon.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Posts
    2,457
    Quote Originally Posted by Sapience View Post
    So yes, we are acutely aware of where the needs of making a video game intersect and occasionally conflict with being 100% lore accurate. When that happens we have people in this building as fiercely protective of the lore as any of you, probably more so, doing their best to make sure that when we have to have lore breaks they are done in ways that at least works within the spirit of the lore and Middle-earth without, hopefully, running roughshod over it
    Those people must have been asleep when you sneaked the Middle-earth Slot Machines past them.
    Mandelbaum, 105 Champ; PeabodySherman, 100 LM, House of Mooters, Landroval
    Rembandor, 85 Champ, Penquanta Periannath, Laurelin

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by whheydt View Post
    Now THAT, I think, is the nauseating justification it has ever been my displeasure to read.
    I have to agree. That scene when the elves marched in was ludicrous, not only because it was lore-breaking, but because it was just plain silly. (C'mon, goose-stepping elves, really?? Almost as bad as having Gandalf whack Denethor with his staff.)

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by BackAgainAndThere View Post
    There's no need to follow every word of the books. Our characters are heroes living in Tolkien's imaginary world, they're not the actual characters of the books.

    Peter Jackson had elves in the movies... you could say that Turbine has a similar "creative license" to do the same thing.
    Peter Jackson had elves AT THE BATTLE OF HELM'S DEEP, unlike Helm's Deep in the books. Most people haven't read the books (a shame, but I digress) and as such most people playing LOTRO are playing it because of the movies, not the books. To borrow from another famous British writer,

    "If Turbine has here offended,
    Think but this, and all is mended,
    That you have but slumber'd here
    While these visions did appear.
    And this weak and idle theme,
    No more yielding but a dream"

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by BackAgainAndThere View Post
    There's no need to follow every word of the books. Our characters are heroes living in Tolkien's imaginary world, they're not the actual characters of the books.

    Peter Jackson had elves in the movies... you could say that Turbine has a similar "creative license" to do the same thing.
    Peter Jackson also needs um "taken care of" for the atrocity people call the hobbit i wouldn't hardly use him as an argument for this.
    [COLOR=#008000][FONT=arial]Sindon we bald, Sindon we strang, Eorlingas , Fram ond trum.[/FONT]
    [FONT=arial]Sindon we bald, Sindon we strang, Eorlingas , Arë lang
    [/FONT][/COLOR]

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Skidfar View Post
    Peter Jackson also needs um "taken care of" for the atrocity people call the hobbit i wouldn't hardly use him as an argument for this.
    Yes, yes, and definitely yes! This farcical treatment of 'Hobbit' suggests that Jackson and Boyens consider themselves better writers than Tolkien, which borders on the delusional.

  16. #16
    The game already has many lore-breaking components. Turbine, from what I can tell, tries their best to keep the lore intact, but I understand their limitations. In my opinion, they're not unreasonable and neither are the "Big Battles" coming to Helm's Deep. Until we are driving modern cars with Gandalf or summoning sharks with rocket launchers strapped to their backs, it's not a big deal to me. People that say some components of the game are lore-breaking are justifiable, but Turbine needs some room to develop the game with what they have.
    Last edited by xDementedx; Aug 07 2013 at 06:34 PM.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Bristol, England
    Posts
    6,884
    Quote Originally Posted by Vincent_Price View Post
    Now if that character -that did SO many things for all those key-figures of the Third Age- did not exist, or at least Tolkien didn't mention, why is it so bad to have them fight a battle that is SO EPIC?
    Because it's not their fight, not this time. This isn't filling in some gap, it'd be a clear break with the story. The expectation to be involved in every damn scene just because it's 'SO EPIC' is a bit much.

    Anyway here's a good (I believe) trick that even our poor Dwarves, Elves and Hobbits participate in the battle :

    It is known that among the defenders of Helm's Deep were old men and children.
    Youths, not children. And given that hobbits were roughly the size of four-year-olds, the idea that anyone could mistake them for someone who ought to be running around on a battlefield isn't even the least bit plausible. Dwarves would stand out too, not just from their height and the beards but their build. Only Elves would have a fair chance of blending in.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Radhruin_EU View Post
    Because it's not their fight, not this time. This isn't filling in some gap, it'd be a clear break with the story. The expectation to be involved in every damn scene just because it's 'SO EPIC' is a bit much.


    Youths, not children. And given that hobbits were roughly the size of four-year-olds, the idea that anyone could mistake them for someone who ought to be running around on a battlefield isn't even the least bit plausible. Dwarves would stand out too, not just from their height and the beards but their build. Only Elves would have a fair chance of blending in.
    How could you say it's not their fight this time?
    Maybe in the sense that they weren't needed?
    Oh but they were! There were maximum 2.000 Rohirrim defending the fort, and they knew they were fighting 10.000 Uruks along with many Easterlings/Dunledings.
    So the argument of "you're not needed here" is not valid.
    Theoden who does not even met our character before would welcome even one more skilled soldier in that battle. And well that's as far as it goes Lore-wise, since the game only sees one more character (eg one Dwarf) and not the other 11. I mean you won't be addressed as the brave 12 that rescued Helm's Deep.

    For the record i'm not asking to be involved in "every damn scene", just because it's so epic. We were not involved in Elrond's Council although i'd love that.
    But i understand, that it would be Lore-Breaking if you were sitting among them and that it serves no gameplay purpose (= there's no challenge), other than have a bit more immersion.


    Youths are defined to be, from 15 to 24, at least that's how the UN defines them. I, personally had another definition (beginning from 12-13 up to the end of teens and a bit more), but even if you go with the UN definition, a 1.22m height for Hobbits (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hobbit#Appearance )or even a 1.45 height for dwarves, is quite acceptable for somebody "too young to have seen a war". Also take in consideration that back then unless you were a Dunadan, the Life Expectancy was what? 40-50? Therefore the definition of a youth would be well down near 10 (and many mid-teens were already taken to war not only in MIddle-Earth but many novels and movies - that was kind of normal even though not quite wanted).


    @Whheydt :

    Actually what you said in your 2nd post (about what you wanted Turbine to say), was in my opinion said and explained even further by Sapience's post here. Is your only problem that Sapience consider's it a minor Lore-break and not a "Lore-break" or a "Big Lore-Break"?
    Maybe you need to define some stuff like
    a) Huge Lore-Break
    b) Big Lore Break
    c) Medium Lore Break
    d) Tiny/Small Lore Break
    are actually.

    To me this battle, having one dwarf OR one elf OR one hobbit fighting (dressed fully with armour and not being understood by others) is a Small Lore Break.
    Otherwise, the whole story of our character would be itself the most titanic Lore-Break ever in Middle-Earth.

    Maybe i'll explain this better in a few days since i won't have much time to post, from now on and i bet it'll take a big post to explain where do i stand.

    Up until then, wish everyone fun and i drink to your health my lords!

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Vincent_Price View Post
    It's pretty unlikely your character wasn't mentioned in any Middle-Earth history book, if he did so much (excluding of course all the raids , from Draigoch, to sending the Witch King back to Minas Morgul. If he vanquished all this evil he should be better known than Theodred for example - IMO).
    At this point our character has done so much in so many places and in so little time, we are already past the point where it would be much more sensible to assign each major questline to a separate character. I mean, come on, Angmar->Moria->Mirkwood->Eriador->Dunland->Isengard->Lorien->Stangard->Lorien->rebuilding Hytbold... in how many years exactly, with or without Forochel? But that, of course, wouldn't fly in MMO, with people quite attached to their "mains". Which is why we even get that campfire instance, where our character is sneaky enough not to mention that teleportation device from Aule, while still claiming that "I've been everywhere, man". I guess it's left to players to craft a less bizarre storyline out of available components that at least does not require to be in several countries during the same week. Imagine what happens if Turbine decides there's more than one way to Gondor

  20. #20
    I'd like to think I care about the lore as much as anyone. However, I can accept most of the additions in the game for two reasons.

    First, just as in the movies (which I enjoyed in spite of their flaws and odd alterations from the books), some changes are made to accommodate the medium. Sapience has presented that point of view very clearly above.

    Second, there are many, many people, places, and phenomena in Arda that never made it into the Red Book which, after all, reflected the experience and viewpoint of the five hobbit adventurers. Who is to say that there was no Trestlebridge in the 'real' Middle-earth, for example. The hobbits never made it to the North Downs area, so anything Turbine fictionalizes there is fair game, if it is consistent with lore. Similarly, perhaps there were visitors on various errands to Lothlorien who never came to the hobbits' atttention. And so on.

    It is my view, for what it's worth, that we can love the lore and appreciate the huge number of ways that Turbine has realized it, and at the same time be somewhat flexible about some game-driven changes and the fact that if something wasn't mentioned in Tolkien's works, that doesn't mean that it couldn't have existed.
    Alasse: lore-master 100 on Landroval, plus alts of every other class

  21. #21
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Everywhere
    Posts
    1,693
    Quote Originally Posted by Vincent_Price View Post
    At last! The thread everyone was waiting for. Created to pull of some load from the "20 Questions regarding Big Battles" thread and a few others.

    My personal opinion is that the new Instances (yet to be played) are NOT Lore-Breaking.
    At least not in the ridiculous manner some other features were asked along the way to be implemented (Eagle Mounts, Cable TV in Kinhouses etc).

    And let me explain myself a bit better.

    Most of the characters in LOTRO have participated in a cornucopia of quests, in favor of the Free Peoples. And have done many deeds, and run for many personal errands of members of the fellowship and other known figures (Elrond, Gloin, Dwalin, Arwen and the 2 sons of Elrond etc).
    Now if that character -that did SO many things for all those key-figures of the Third Age- did not exist, or at least Tolkien didn't mention, why is it so bad to have them fight a battle that is SO EPIC?

    This is not a "two wrongs make a right" situation/argument. Not at all. It's just it was happening from day C (for example when you spoke to Frodo at Rivendell). It's pretty unlikely your character wasn't mentioned in any Middle-Earth history book, if he did so much (excluding of course all the raids , from Draigoch, to sending the Witch King back to Minas Morgul. If he vanquished all this evil he should be better known than Theodred for example - IMO).
    The only situation i see that a level 85 would justifiably be unknown, is if he only killed landscape mobs (was a true hunter renegade that did no errands and was always lurking in the shadows avoiding NPCs) or participated in Festivals the whole time (in which case he would be well-known among Hobbits! Huzzzaaaaah!!!).


    Anyway here's a good (I believe) trick that even our poor Dwarves, Elves and Hobbits participate in the battle :

    It is known that among the defenders of Helm's Deep were old men and children.
    It would be great if we could have Aragorn/Legolas/Gimli, you know our old buddies from back in the day, secretly sneak us in and dress in armour, and they'd go on defending us to nosey Rohirrim saying, for dwarves and hobbits "It's just a kid, nothing to see here. Move on - move on!".

    It could totally work for Hobbits. Dwarves are quite more difficult to work around (with the beards and all), but i'm sure we could think something out.
    As for elves, the only problem is the pointy ears. Can be solved easily.


    What do yee think?
    The more I have thought about it... the more I have come to the conclusion that our appearance at Helms Deep wouldn't be completely lore-breaking IF Turbine sets it up correctly. As in, I believe that our involvement should be more supportive than direct involvement. No, we do not get any "camera time". But, by our actions, we are able to contribute in some way.
    Dagranhad - Burglar | Aldgarea - Loremaster | Barathrothir - Hunter | Golladhar - Captain

 

 

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

This form's session has expired. You need to reload the page.

Reload