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  1. #1

    A place to make a stand and hopefully make our voice heard.

    In May 2004, Woody Hearn of GU Comics called for all EverQuest gamers to boycott the Omens of War expansion in an effort to force SOE to address existing issues with the game rather than release another "quick-fire" expansion.[27] The call to boycott was rescinded after SOE held a summit to address player concerns, improve (internal and external) communication, and correct specific issues within the game.

    May 28th 2004
    "Sony Online Entertainment have announced that, due to an almost universal player backlash against the next expansion pack that is seen more as a $30.00 patch for missing content, they are delaying the new EverQuest expansion by 6 weeks, and will 'spend time fixing the problems you have brought to our attention'. Also announced is a plan to fly some of the more vocal website people to SOE headquarters, to try to restart enthusiasm for what may be the last EverQuest expansion ever."

    Expansion since the boycott.
    1. Omens of War (September 2004)
    2. Dragons of Norrath (February 2005)
    3. Depths of Darkhollow (September 2005)
    4. Prophecy of Ro (February 2006)
    5. The Serpent's Spine (September 2006)
    6. The Buried Sea (February 2007)
    7. Secrets of Faydwer (November 2007)
    8. Seeds of Destruction (October 2008)
    9. Underfoot (December 2009)
    10. House of Thule (October 2010)
    11. Veil of Alaris (November 2011)
    12. Rain of Fear (November 2012) and Shadow of Fear (April 2013) and Heart of Fear (July 2013)
    13. Call of the Forsaken(September 2013)

    The point in all of the above? I think we can all agree, does not matter if we are Raiders, PVPer's or Solo Player's, there are many parts of the game that are still broken and it needs to be fixed.
    I have been playing this game since May of 2007, I have invested alot of time, money and love into this game. I care for this game so much and the kin that I have built, that I am not willing to just give up on it, instead, I want to stand up and fight for what I believe in and love. Not only that, I just want what I have already paid for to work as intended.

    Guys this post is not here to bash Turbine or the dev's, it just to say why I will be boycotting Helm's Deep and not buying it until the things that I have already paid for get fixed.

    1. Fire and Frost in Tower not working as intended.
    2. Draigoch raid is bugged and Turbine knows it is bugged because when people report it to a gm, we get, this is a known issue.
    3. Lag in Flight to the Lonely Mountain since the last update. Did not have lag before, so please dont blame it on my computer or my ISP, to many raiding kins are also reporting the same thing.
    4. Loot. Though working as Turbine wants it to, not working for myself and alot of others.

    That is my list and I hope that others come in and reply to this post what they see in the game as being broken and why they will be boycotting Helms Deep too.

    Maybe, just maybe if enough of us post, they will see a bunch of people who love the game and just want to be given what we paid for in the past before we pay for the future.

    If they are not fixing the bugs that we have now, how can they promise us a working as intended Big Battle? This is my biggest fear.

    PS Turbine. Ramble On is a end game raiding kin of 46 members and though we are still raiding in LOTRO once a week, most spend all of their time and money now in Rift.

    Quantar, Kin Leader of Ramble On
    Ramble On's Channel: [url]http://www.youtube.com/user/QuantarLOTRO?feature=mhee[/url]

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamesm429 View Post
    Guys this post is not here to bash Turbine or the dev's, it just to say why I will be boycotting Helm's Deep and not buying it until the things that I have already paid for get fixed.
    Sony recognized that it needed to address the concerns of it's player base, and did so. I don't see that happening here. The theme seems to be to shut down the discussion and/or ignore it instead of directly addressing it.

    As for getting existing things fixed that have been broken for years... I'll go on record saying it's likely not going to happen. They're ever looking at the 'next expansion', not at fixing what you've already paid for. This much is obvious by the fact that these concerns are never addressed and almost universally shut down before they have a chance to get footing.

    But honestly, it doesn't seem like much of the player base really cares if things get fixed or not. If they did, they'd hold Turbine's feet to the fire. And I don't see that happening either.

    It is what it is. I've long given up on getting any of the old things fixed, and I enjoy the game anyway. It's small beer, in the grand scheme of life.

  3. #3
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    I'll be getting the expansion. Yes, Turbine does things that I don't like, the Hobbit present being a pet peeve, and I detest Legendaries, but all in all I'm happy with the game.

    And with the latest 20 questions, I'm excited about Helm's Deep.
    Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, totally worn out & proclaiming "WOW, what a ride!"
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  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamesm429 View Post
    4. Loot. Though working as Turbine wants it to, not working for myself and alot of others.


    This is not a bug, nor is it a problem, its totally random and fair chances for everyone. Just because YOU don't like something doesn't mean it should be "fixed."
    The people who complain about things that AREN'T problems end up getting those "problems" "fixed" and making it even worse.

    In order to boycott HD you would need a lot of people willing to do it, but sadly a lot of people just wouldn't do it. You would also need to have some better things to "fix" than things that YOU personally don't like.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by OruiFarimur View Post
    This is not a bug, nor is it a problem, its totally random and fair chances for everyone. Just because YOU don't like something doesn't mean it should be "fixed."
    That is an opinion, not a fact.

    While it is BELIEVED to be totally random, any attempts to get their attention at various signs that might indicate it is not have brought us nothing but silence (except the attempt at quieting the discussion with non-question July Q2, which wasn't addressing the problem, see discussion below it).

    SNy

  6. #6
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    Regrettably, none of your issues are of any importance to me, so I will be respectfully declining your invitation.
    [COLOR=Red][B]TANSTAAFL[/B][/COLOR]

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Jamesm429 View Post
    In May 2004, Woody Hearn of GU Comics called for all EverQuest gamers to boycott the Omens of War expansion in an effort to force SOE to address existing issues with the game rather than release another "quick-fire" expansion.[27] The call to boycott was rescinded after SOE held a summit to address player concerns, improve (internal and external) communication, and correct specific issues within the game.

    May 28th 2004
    "Sony Online Entertainment have announced that, due to an almost universal player backlash against the next expansion pack that is seen more as a $30.00 patch for missing content, they are delaying the new EverQuest expansion by 6 weeks, and will 'spend time fixing the problems you have brought to our attention'. Also announced is a plan to fly some of the more vocal website people to SOE headquarters, to try to restart enthusiasm for what may be the last EverQuest expansion ever."

    Expansion since the boycott.
    1. Omens of War (September 2004)
    2. Dragons of Norrath (February 2005)
    3. Depths of Darkhollow (September 2005)
    4. Prophecy of Ro (February 2006)
    5. The Serpent's Spine (September 2006)
    6. The Buried Sea (February 2007)
    7. Secrets of Faydwer (November 2007)
    8. Seeds of Destruction (October 2008)
    9. Underfoot (December 2009)
    10. House of Thule (October 2010)
    11. Veil of Alaris (November 2011)
    12. Rain of Fear (November 2012) and Shadow of Fear (April 2013) and Heart of Fear (July 2013)
    13. Call of the Forsaken(September 2013)

    The point in all of the above? I think we can all agree, does not matter if we are Raiders, PVPer's or Solo Player's, there are many parts of the game that are still broken and it needs to be fixed.
    I have been playing this game since May of 2007, I have invested alot of time, money and love into this game. I care for this game so much and the kin that I have built, that I am not willing to just give up on it, instead, I want to stand up and fight for what I believe in and love. Not only that, I just want what I have already paid for to work as intended.

    Guys this post is not here to bash Turbine or the dev's, it just to say why I will be boycotting Helm's Deep and not buying it until the things that I have already paid for get fixed.

    1. Fire and Frost in Tower not working as intended.
    2. Draigoch raid is bugged and Turbine knows it is bugged because when people report it to a gm, we get, this is a known issue.
    3. Lag in Flight to the Lonely Mountain since the last update. Did not have lag before, so please dont blame it on my computer or my ISP, to many raiding kins are also reporting the same thing.
    4. Loot. Though working as Turbine wants it to, not working for myself and alot of others.

    That is my list and I hope that others come in and reply to this post what they see in the game as being broken and why they will be boycotting Helms Deep too.

    Maybe, just maybe if enough of us post, they will see a bunch of people who love the game and just want to be given what we paid for in the past before we pay for the future.

    If they are not fixing the bugs that we have now, how can they promise us a working as intended Big Battle? This is my biggest fear.

    PS Turbine. Ramble On is a end game raiding kin of 46 members and though we are still raiding in LOTRO once a week, most spend all of their time and money now in Rift.

    Quantar, Kin Leader of Ramble On
    If this is your list of "bugs" that are so serious (in your mind) that you want to call for a general boycott than I simply can't agree. I almost want to say, "You've got to be kidding", but instead I'll recommend some vacation time and a lot less caffeine.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by SNy-lotrolinux-EU View Post
    That is an opinion, not a fact.

    While it is BELIEVED to be totally random, any attempts to get their attention at various signs that might indicate it is not have brought us nothing but silence (except the attempt at quieting the discussion with non-question July Q2, which wasn't addressing the problem, see discussion below it).

    SNy
    Theres no pattern in the loot dropping, f2pers prems and vips get them all the same, there absolutely NO noted pattern, and Turbine has even said its random. hence the term RNG. So it's more of a fact than an opinion, these items are supposed to be rare and powerful anyways, but way too many people have them for them to be "rare."

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Paragnosis View Post
    If this is your list of "bugs" that are so serious (in your mind) that you want to call for a general boycott than I simply can't agree. I almost want to say, "You've got to be kidding", but instead I'll recommend some vacation time and a lot less caffeine.


    As I said, those are things I would like to see fix. If I were to list all the bugs, than I would need a lot of caffeine. And nor am I saying that mine are more important than others, but I would like others to list their's.
    Ramble On's Channel: [url]http://www.youtube.com/user/QuantarLOTRO?feature=mhee[/url]

  10. #10
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    You should really know better than to criticise anything Turbine does.

  11. #11
    deleted duplicate
    Last edited by SNy-lotrolinux-EU; Aug 07 2013 at 03:37 PM. Reason: [double post due to forum hiccup]

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by OruiFarimur View Post
    Theres no pattern in the loot dropping, f2pers prems and vips get them all the same, there absolutely NO noted pattern
    So, I take it you haven't read the discussions? All of what you say is supposedly happening. In truth, there has been no proof one way or the other. But, as I said, there have been a number of threads on the issue that agree that having a look shouldn't hurt. Refer to the Wi-Flag. Basically the same situation.

    Quote Originally Posted by OruiFarimur View Post
    and Turbine has even said its random. hence the term RNG
    What they said was that the pRNG is working fine. As stated here, that is not really questioned, nor is it the question that is asked. That would be: Is the pRNG properly applied to the loot problem? Every time this is brought up it is dismissed off-handedly, just like it was with the Wi-Flag.

    Quote Originally Posted by OruiFarimur View Post
    So it's more of a fact than an opinion, these items are supposed to be rare and powerful anyways, but way too many people have them for them to be "rare."
    Funny you should say that. Take a look around and ask people. It appears certain people won a whole lot of those items, while certain other people continually get nothing. Recurring theme. Why dismiss it, without even looking?

    SNy

  13. #13
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    As a member of the only remaining active raiding kin of Imladris, I see where you're coming from and I assure you that I understand and sympathize with your sentiments. However, the sad truth is that most serious raiders have left the game** for 'greener passtures', and raiding kins are now a rarity.

    The way I see it**, most people in the forums seem to enjoy the direction in which this game is being taken, and so we -the 'raiders'- are a minority and are usually thrown into a narrow little stereotype, a 'breed' close to extinction.

    What I'm trying to say is that you're not going to receive much support in the forums, as you can probably tell by now, and all you can do is have a chat with your kin and whatever remaining people you know that share a similar opinion and decide on a course of action; it might not be much, it might be a 1%, but it's all you can do.

    Personally, I -and most people I've talked to- will not pre-order the expansion, especially not after the great announcement that we will not get raids. I plan to buy it with Turbine Points I've saved up, and not give Turbine a dime unless they prove me wrong and this expansion ends up being something more than just fluff and more solo grind.

    I know of your kin and I know you guys are some of the best out there, so it's sad to know that some of you are spending most of your time in another game, but I understand why you're doing it. Good luck.


    ----

    ** this is purely based on personal observation.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by SNy-lotrolinux-EU View Post
    Funny you should say that. Take a look around and ask people. It appears certain people won a whole lot of those items, while certain other people continually get nothing. Recurring theme. Why dismiss it, without even looking?

    SNy
    Because we have no idea how many times people have run the required instances to get their gold items. Someone with 6 gold items could have run 6 instances or 6000.

  15. #15
    While all of the items that you mention have been real concerns in my experience, the instance-specific ones are less of a worry to me. In my opinion, Turbine has historically worked through instance specific issues to a certain extent (if you omit Draigoch). Plus I don't think that telling them: "Stop making buggy raids!" will have a ton of impact.


    But the loot issue is a showstopper. With the current system for the golds, there is an overwhelming randomness that prevents any sense of toon progression, unless of course you are lucky enough to have the RNG on your side for item after item. As a result, players like me are burning out because we can't progress our toons no matter how many instances we run. (And please don't tell me that stuff about rare and epic... there are too many golds now for them to be truly rare and the old gold items like Wig-Feld were gated behind a very, very challenging instance. These days there is no significant challenge required for winning golds except being lucky enough to win the lottery win you open that loot chest.)


    Of course, if I go it won't be by joining a petition. I'll simply decide that the game is no longer worth investing my time into, and I'll stop logging in.


    /Scrump


    And here is my litmus test for the loot system. I know people who are burning out or leaving because of the current loot system. Would they be losing players if the loot system was changed to increase drop rates or make them more predictable?

  16. #16
    Some issues I personally see:

    Resources are wasted on revamping the same area over n over n over again. Bree got a make-over like 5 times. They could have used 2-3 of those times to revamp Trollshaws or a different area like they intended to.

    Raid bugs (major). Draigoch is one example...the number of times it'd bug out and waste peoples times is bad. Flights t2 is another example. The latest update caused more issues than it solved and if this goes anything like Draigoch it will stay as-is and Turbine will hope no one runs it at next level cap.


    Server Performance: There is tremendous lag in the Moors with raid vs raid on certain servers where other servers can be raid and a half vs raid and a half and will run fairly smooth. When I hear about big battles taking place in Helms Deep I am incredibly skeptical about performance.

    General raiding: it has come to the point where I recommend turning off special effect options if user experiences excessive lag and if on directx11 to get the heck off it. Turbine runs incredibly bad using directx11. The content being produced and players can't experience it on the best settings even with a top of the line computer is just icky icky icky.

    Warsteeds: game struggles to keep up with max speed while on warsteeds and will get glitchy. A huge turn-off for many.


    Those are just a small list of issues that doesn't even include content quality.
    Last edited by timmyloo22546; Aug 09 2013 at 03:31 PM.

  17. #17
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    Regarding loot, it seems there are two buckets. People who are swiming in golds, or people who haven't seen a single thing since the system changed.
    Examples of both; I saw someone get their 4th gold piece from the same instance. Meanwhile, for me personally, I've run over 1000 instances combined over all my characters (as kept track by the skirmish tracker and added up by me), and have yet to get a single gold piece. Take it a level further; a RK in Ramble On has easily run IP over 1000 times. Well, let's just say he's pretty much quit the game because of the loot system.

    I'll say the same thing that I've been saying since day one of this; there has to be some sort of tweak to the system for diminishing returns. You can't possibly tell me that a gold drop has the same 0.000001% chance of dropping for someone running an instance for the first time, and someone running it for the 1001st time. The second person's chance should go up with each fail.


    As for these "big battles," while they seem nice, I fear they'll suffer from the same problems that current instances do. In 6 months, they'll be just as broken as the instances now are. And at that point, they'll already be moving on to the next and forgetting about what just happened.

    I remember when the population of Elendilmir was thriving. Now, it's just the same usual suspects waving their pvp stats around all day, praising themselves in the third person, arguing about killing each other in 2 or 3 moves, and why this or that certain person hasn't deleted from failing some brain-numbingly stupid challenge. "The server for raiding kinships" is no more, as "raiding kinships" will soon be no more at the rate things are going on. For those who feel Turbine can do no wrong, or that want to ride this ship to see where it takes you, I wish you well.

    I'll be riding the ship west.....
    Eorzea awaits.....
    Renali - 85 Hunter - Ramble On
    other junk that doesn't matter, blahblahblah

  18. #18
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    It's just too late.
    As can be seen by the predominance of non-supportive posts, this game has effectively determined who it will and will not cater to going forward.
    I decided to not buy Helm's Deep months ago - and the funny thing is, this decision didn't even have anything to do with Helm's Deep specifically.

    It's a lost cause, brother. You can stand up and fight, but there are way too many deaf ears around these parts to even make it a fight. You'll be swinging at the air...
    It was a good run, but the LotRO raider is now simply just a vestige on Turbine's mantle.
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  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by krisnwo316 View Post
    "The server for raiding kinships" is no more, as "raiding kinships" will soon be no more at the rate things are going on. For those who feel Turbine can do no wrong, or that want to ride this ship to see where it takes you, I wish you well.
    So true. There is less and less incentive for being in a kin these days. MMORPG will need a rename to MSORPG

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by mjk47 View Post
    Regrettably, none of your issues are of any importance to me, so I will be respectfully declining your invitation.
    As usual, your contribute is noted. The main issue is, you add nothing to the conversation with such comments. But thanks for monitoring a thread that has nothing to do with you or your play style.

    On topic, I believe it's time to throw the towel Quantar. We will all have great memories of what Lotro used to be. At this point in time, it's clear as the water I'm staring at in Santorini, Greece, that Turbine doesn't think raiders are important. Like someone above me just mentioned, I wish those who enjoy the current state of things the best of luck and enjoyment.

    As a lifer, I always put faith in Turbine and gave them the benefit of the doubt... Until RoR. I bought everything with my TP and I'm going to do the same with Helms Deep. But it shouldn't be a concern for Turbine... After all, I only represent a 10th of the population... the profit from the other 90% should cover their loss with me.

    Cheers.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by OruiFarimur View Post
    This is not a bug, nor is it a problem, its totally random and fair chances for everyone. Just because YOU don't like something doesn't mean it should be "fixed."
    The people who complain about things that AREN'T problems end up getting those "problems" "fixed" and making it even worse.

    In order to boycott HD you would need a lot of people willing to do it, but sadly a lot of people just wouldn't do it. You would also need to have some better things to "fix" than things that YOU personally don't like.
    No-one with any real amount of experience with the RNG would defend it as random. It is not. And even if it is (which it isn't) the loot system remains terrible and a source of profound disincentive for many players. Yourself excluded, apparently. I've run hundreds upon hundreds of instances. I know. I've seen. The current "luck" based system is not a good one. It has destroyed any sense of accomplishment in LotRO...among other things.

    The OP, I think, phrased his concerns the way he did so as not to ask for too much. Asking for Turbine to address some old content and squeeze in a much needed fix (the loot system) seems much more viable than asking for properly designed raid or PvP content or something. THAT will earn you nothing but derision and a lock. It's the angle one has to play...One sympathizes.

    I agree with OP. Ramble On was one of the names I used to look for "in the raid scene" on the forums. Lotro is worse for the loss of them and others like them and that "scene", I think so, anyway...

    The kin I played with and raided with on LotRO is gone too. RoR was the killing blow. We held out for as long as we could, we hoped, we deluded ourselves (and by that I mean we farmed every instance in its grand futility, saw the laughable rewards in T2CM Battle and Smaug, got good and fed up with itemization and the game's direction...we didn't leave the party early), in the end however...

    Quote Originally Posted by Southpa View Post
    It's just too late.
    As can be seen by the predominance of non-supportive posts, this game has effectively determined who it will and will not cater to going forward.
    I decided to not buy Helm's Deep months ago - and the funny thing is, this decision didn't even have anything to do with Helm's Deep specifically.

    It's a lost cause, brother. You can stand up and fight, but there are way too many deaf ears around these parts to even make it a fight. You'll be swinging at the air...
    It was a good run, but the LotRO raider is now simply just a vestige on Turbine's mantle.
    This proved sad but true.

    Even now I can't help but come back and commiserate having invested so much and having known what Lotro was and could have been.
    Last edited by infinitewhimsy; Nov 14 2013 at 09:12 PM.

  22. #22
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    To OP: I agree with everything you said, on top of that I would like to see fix for lags, extreme loading times (and no... I dont take SSD as a solution for a broken and not optimized system) and zoombug whenever I touch the mail.

    Quote Originally Posted by infinitewhimsy View Post
    No-one with any real amount of experience with the RNG would defend it as random. It is not. And even if it (which it isn't) the loot system remains terrible and a source of profound disincentive for many players. Yourself excluded, apparently. I've run hundreds upon hundreds of instances. I know. I've seen. The current "luck" based system is not a good one. It has destroyed any sense of accomplishment in LotRO...among other things.
    This! RNG and same loot for T1 and T2 is the worst thing that happened to this game. And the worst thing is that Turbine knows it, they just never admit they made mistake.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by krisnwo316 View Post
    I'll be riding the ship west.....
    Eorzea awaits.....
    Count me in ...

  24. #24
    Sadly, even if Turbine did accomodate Quantar's request for fixes, I couldn't come back because there is no raid with Helms Deep. I sympathize with the Ramble guys and all the other formerly dedicated raiders that occassionaly revisit this forum, but the Devs aren't making "our" game anymore.

    I'm annoyed and disappointed about it, but I actually respect the fact that they've been pretty transparent about the shift. Sapience has indicated on multiple occassions now that "raiding" is a very small subsegment of the game population, which is a nice way of saying- it's not important. They are running a business. The model of one MMO for all playstyles probably doesn't work anymore. You more likely need differing MMOs targeting differing gaming subsegments. LoTRO has gone for the casual segment. It sounds like the Ramble guys are pursuing RIFT, which seems to be (at least now) still focused on raiding.

    We dabled in RIFT for a while, and in every way it is a superior and more polished game than LoTRO except for the world setting, lore immersion, and possibly art style (personal preference). That's a big "except for" though and some people will stick with the world they love and others will move to a game style they more enjoy playing. Somehow most of my crew ended up with more critical mass in TOR so we are dabbling there for now. I think TOR is still trying to cater to all market segments. I just don't see how that can be sustainable in the long run.

    I actually don't think any of the upcoming MMOs are going to do much for "raiders" either. They seem to be copying the GW2 model (non-distinct class roles, world events) rather than team-based PVE puzzles. For the foresable future I only see TOR and RIFT as real options. MOBAs are the big thing now and are taking development resources from MMOs. Anyone playing PVP in LoTRO would be far happier in a true high-quality MOBA- even a Tolkien one.

 

 

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