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  1. #1
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    Cool CD's, traitlines, and other things people like to complain about.

    So the other day after never doing much outside of fervour on my champ..I tried going 4 blue 3 red, and experimenting with set pieces etc. while running glory in the moors..and yknow..its actually not that bad, in fact its..surprisingly GOOD, 1v1s I feel like I'm much better off, group fights I haven't don't much with but I feel like it would lose most its value then. But this isn't about fervour VS glory. This is about all you people who constantly find ways to excuse your losing in spars, I got called out multiple times for using a "cd" (which I think shouldn't matter anyway, but I typically refrain from using due to drama.) Now it wasn't just 2 or 3 times, it was EVERY. SINGLE. FIGHT. I didn't even use bracing attack because apparently that was a little bit too much for these guys, but even without that, I guess the heal that glory auto gives you if you drop below 25% morale (I think thats the number?) is considered a CD. So every time the 1v1/spar got to a certain point, Creeps and freeps alike called me out on it, I didn't use half the skills on my quickslot bar because apparently using skills makes the fight unfair.(perfectly logical right?) But the fact that some people are calling my TRAIT-line a "CD" is a pathetic excuse for not being very good at pvmp.

    Now I come from both sides, creep on one server, freep on another. Let me just say this...a rank 0 freep is better off than a rank 0 creep. That's just a fact, but r6+ on both sides it where the fights start getting interesting, I'm not one to complain, but the rank 13 WL with 27k morale who spam heals himself in 1v1s should NOT get mad at me and my little 10k morale pool when I pop dire-need. (I'm rank 6!) Nor should the rank 8 reaver get mad when my trait-line(yay glory, its my new found glory) does what its supposed to whilst utilizing everything he can against me.

    My stance on CD's, use them when its actually appropriate, if the f2p rank 3 reaver starts beating you in a spar by sheer luck and the fact that you have a hangover due to late nights of drinking and glff rants, let him have it. He's probably had a sad pvmp career up until this point so don't pop your bubbles+dire need and let him get the kill. (just an example, I know how all you elitists feel, no one should lose to a low rank freaver.)

    I guess what I'm trying to say is CD's are a big part of the freep quickslot bar, We've spent 85 levels accommodating to these skills and utilizing them to their best effect, only to get shamed for using them when the situation is CLEARLY fair. Some people abuse them, but not all of us, and frankly I'm done with the shenanigans, I'll take the zergs with pride..cause I feel like using everything I have to beat that stupid high rank god-mode creep

  2. #2
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    I too am one that generally tries to refrain from popping my CDs (HiPS/Topple and Sprint) during 1v1s or spars. I won't get mad at anyone that doesn't do this. However, at times it seems rather cheap when you see players on either side pop them against foes that they could and should probably crush easily (low ranks). Heck, even in close, down to the wire fights, it seems cheap to see a Freep pop Man-heal or a Creep pop Uruk-heal.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by OruiFarimur View Post
    So the other day after never doing much outside of fervour on my champ..I tried going 4 blue 3 red, and experimenting with set pieces etc. while running glory in the moors..and yknow..its actually not that bad, in fact its..surprisingly GOOD, 1v1s I feel like I'm much better off, group fights I haven't don't much with but I feel like it would lose most its value then. But this isn't about fervour VS glory. This is about all you people who constantly find ways to excuse your losing in spars, I got called out multiple times for using a "cd" (which I think shouldn't matter anyway, but I typically refrain from using due to drama.) Now it wasn't just 2 or 3 times, it was EVERY. SINGLE. FIGHT. I didn't even use bracing attack because apparently that was a little bit too much for these guys, but even without that, I guess the heal that glory auto gives you if you drop below 25% morale (I think thats the number?) is considered a CD. So every time the 1v1/spar got to a certain point, Creeps and freeps alike called me out on it, I didn't use half the skills on my quickslot bar because apparently using skills makes the fight unfair.(perfectly logical right?) But the fact that some people are calling my TRAIT-line a "CD" is a pathetic excuse for not being very good at pvmp.

    Now I come from both sides, creep on one server, freep on another. Let me just say this...a rank 0 freep is better off than a rank 0 creep. That's just a fact, but r6+ on both sides it where the fights start getting interesting, I'm not one to complain, but the rank 13 WL with 27k morale who spam heals himself in 1v1s should NOT get mad at me and my little 10k morale pool when I pop dire-need. (I'm rank 6!) Nor should the rank 8 reaver get mad when my trait-line(yay glory, its my new found glory) does what its supposed to whilst utilizing everything he can against me.

    My stance on CD's, use them when its actually appropriate, if the f2p rank 3 reaver starts beating you in a spar by sheer luck and the fact that you have a hangover due to late nights of drinking and glff rants, let him have it. He's probably had a sad pvmp career up until this point so don't pop your bubbles+dire need and let him get the kill. (just an example, I know how all you elitists feel, no one should lose to a low rank freaver.)

    I guess what I'm trying to say is CD's are a big part of the freep quickslot bar, We've spent 85 levels accommodating to these skills and utilizing them to their best effect, only to get shamed for using them when the situation is CLEARLY fair. Some people abuse them, but not all of us, and frankly I'm done with the shenanigans, I'll take the zergs with pride..cause I feel like using everything I have to beat that stupid high rank god-mode creep
    Saying any creep is godmode is the dumbest thing I have seen on the forms in a long time and champs r op with all there bubbles and heals. Very op


    P.S
    The rank 8 reaver has every right to get mad. As a reaver I know why.
    Last edited by Fererif; Aug 26 2013 at 01:54 PM.

  4. #4
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    Anyone who thinks that because someone has 27k morale, they are automatically powerful, has miniscule knowledge of this game.

    Saying a WL is not allowed to spam heal himself in spars is the same as saying a champion is not allowed to spam melee attacks. Self-healing is fundamental to the class.

  5. #5
    Let me clarify things in a way EVERY type of player will understand.

    This games pvp wasnt meant for 1v1s, there are no arena fights that turbine put together for us (sad yes i know) therefore there are skills out there that werent meant to be used for 1v1 scenerios. It is up to us ( the players) to try to know the boundries of our opponent in a 1v1 and not use certain things that would make the fight unfair.

    Example, a minstrel can easily out heal a weavers damage in a 1v1 so its up to the minstrel to not heal in that fight.

    A shadow warg has no way to heal himself at all once in combat, so yes its unfair to spam bracing attack with a champion against a warg. At the end the champion will have healed over 3k morale.

    If you are against not using your cooldowns in a 1v1 then just dont 1v1. Go out and find yourself 2to3 creeps and pop as many skills off as you want.

    Champions at the moment are the most over powered class in the ettenmoores. They are the. One class i see with no weakness to exploit. They have heavy armour so they can get up to 70% mitigation, they can pop up to 3 morale bubbles in a single fight (which in total is about over 9k worth of extra morale that has to be burned through) , they do amazing dps...more damage than any creep period. They can heal themselves for over 2k with bracing attack every so often , they can sprint for 45seconds ( allowing them not to be slowed, more than enough time to run away from something or catch up to anything ). To top it all off they can fully heal themselves every 5 minutes at any point in time of the fight ( thats right, ive seen a champ hit dire need at 10% morale and fully heal himself to 100%). They also have a bow, so its not like range is a big way to overcome them therefore making it impossible to kite them coupled with their sprint skill.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Fererif View Post
    champs r op with all there bubbles and heals. Very op
    Right, I think the point of this thread is more directed towards the people who say " freeps can win any fight if they use cds" but then turn around and say that freeps should NOT use cds because its unfair. The current state of the moors is a lose-lose situation from my experience. You do something to benefit yourself, you get yelled at, you change your playstyle to suit the QQers and you basically lose on purpose.

    and to people who say that no creep is godmode..creeps can be very powerful if played correctly, while certain freep classes naturally have the advantage, I've seen creeps that do amazing in the moors.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by OruiFarimur View Post
    rank 13 WL with 27k morale who spam heals himself in 1v1s should NOT get mad at me and my little 10k morale pool when I pop dire-need.
    I fully stand behind this statement...

  8. #8

    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by Bee9 View Post
    Right, I think the point of this thread is more directed towards the people who say " freeps can win any fight if they use cds" but then turn around and say that freeps should NOT use cds because its unfair. The current state of the moors is a lose-lose situation from my experience. You do something to benefit yourself, you get yelled at, you change your playstyle to suit the QQers and you basically lose on purpose.

    and to people who say that no creep is godmode..creeps can be very powerful if played correctly, while certain freep classes naturally have the advantage, I've seen creeps that do amazing in the moors.
    Freeps who play correctly r far more powerful. Do you know how hard it is to beat a Freep that is using all there CDs? A freep who does is godmode. If you play correctly on freep you can win without using any CDs. You and the person who started this thread don't know that prolly because u don't play correctly.
    Last edited by Fererif; Aug 26 2013 at 03:48 PM.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by OruiFarimur View Post
    So the other day after never doing much outside of fervour on my champ..I tried going 4 blue 3 red, and experimenting with set pieces etc. while running glory in the moors..and yknow..its actually not that bad, in fact its..surprisingly GOOD, 1v1s I feel like I'm much better off, group fights I haven't don't much with but I feel like it would lose most its value then. But this isn't about fervour VS glory. This is about all you people who constantly find ways to excuse your losing in spars, I got called out multiple times for using a "cd" (which I think shouldn't matter anyway, but I typically refrain from using due to drama.) Now it wasn't just 2 or 3 times, it was EVERY. SINGLE. FIGHT. I didn't even use bracing attack because apparently that was a little bit too much for these guys, but even without that, I guess the heal that glory auto gives you if you drop below 25% morale (I think thats the number?) is considered a CD. So every time the 1v1/spar got to a certain point, Creeps and freeps alike called me out on it, I didn't use half the skills on my quickslot bar because apparently using skills makes the fight unfair.(perfectly logical right?) But the fact that some people are calling my TRAIT-line a "CD" is a pathetic excuse for not being very good at pvmp.
    Bubbles are lame, Bracing is ok, but you can't avoid a traited heal, lol. Aside from that, Glory is boring.

    Now I come from both sides, creep on one server, freep on another. Let me just say this...a rank 0 freep is better off than a rank 0 creep. That's just a fact, but r6+ on both sides it where the fights start getting interesting, I'm not one to complain, but the rank 13 WL with 27k morale who spam heals himself in 1v1s should NOT get mad at me and my little 10k morale pool when I pop dire-need. (I'm rank 6!) Nor should the rank 8 reaver get mad when my trait-line(yay glory, its my new found glory) does what its supposed to whilst utilizing everything he can against me.
    I'd rather say r8+. A rank 6 creep gets obliterated by a well played freep.

    I guess what I'm trying to say is CD's are a big part of the freep quickslot bar, We've spent 85 levels accommodating to these skills and utilizing them to their best effect, only to get shamed for using them when the situation is CLEARLY fair.
    The situation can't be "clearly fair" when you use them. The lvling/gearing story of freeps is one I've heard too often, and none of it is true. R0-R5 is so much harder than lvling...

  10. #10
    Warden's have a traitline bonus (4 deep in shield line) that makes them passively only able to take 1 crit every 7 or 8 seconds (this is not a massive crit defense bonus, it literally means once a shield warden has been crit, they will not take another critical hit for 7 or 8 seconds) Does this sound fair to crit dependent creep classes, particularly wargs, whos second most important skill is gated behind a crit response? It doesn't matter whether the advantage comes from gear, traits, stance, tactics, or that you are unbeatable when you wear yellow socks. When you have an advantage that another class cannot effectively counter, whether you are creep or freep, you're going to take #### for using it.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    Warden's have a traitline bonus (4 deep in shield line) that makes them passively only able to take 1 crit every 7 or 8 seconds (this is not a massive crit defense bonus, it literally means once a shield warden has been crit, they will not take another critical hit for 7 or 8 seconds) Does this sound fair to crit dependent creep classes, particularly wargs, whos second most important skill is gated behind a crit response? It doesn't matter whether the advantage comes from gear, traits, stance, tactics, or that you are unbeatable when you wear yellow socks. When you have an advantage that another class cannot effectively counter, whether you are creep or freep, you're going to take #### for using it.

    Someone was saying that the crit immunity gambit is broken/bugged and lasts indefinitely through combat. Is this true?

    Anyways, in regards to the OP:

    My champ is only lvl 41, and I won't pretend to be an expert on the class, but I can't imagine you're really challenging yourself in fights traited glory unless you're really, really bad. If you truly enjoy 1v1s, you're shooting yourself in the foot and aren't going to find many more unless you give your opponent a fair chance at beating you. Whether it's putting on bad gear, not traiting specific op traitlines, not using cds, skill etc doesn't matter. Hell, it's not even that fun to win a 1v1 unless you really earn it.

    As for your WL fight, there's 1 or 2 champs on Landy who routinely win those fights without bubbles or dire need. Make a toon and ask for Gilcalardir or Kilganon for tips and I'm sure they'll be happy to oblige. Or make a thread about it in the champ forums.
    "Heroes get remembered but Legends never die."

    SnH Landroval

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by xmorzan View Post
    Someone was saying that the crit immunity gambit is broken/bugged and lasts indefinitely through combat. Is this true?
    There is no gambit, it's a passive effect from traiting into blue. It lasts 7s. There are 3 gambits that increase critical defence, though, in Determination: sh-f sh-f-sh sh-f-sh-f.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by spelunker View Post
    Warden's have a traitline bonus (4 deep in shield line) that makes them passively only able to take 1 crit every 7 or 8 seconds (this is not a massive crit defense bonus, it literally means once a shield warden has been crit, they will not take another critical hit for 7 or 8 seconds) Does this sound fair to crit dependent creep classes, particularly wargs, whos second most important skill is gated behind a crit response? It doesn't matter whether the advantage comes from gear, traits, stance, tactics, or that you are unbeatable when you wear yellow socks. When you have an advantage that another class cannot effectively counter, whether you are creep or freep, you're going to take #### for using it.
    THIS THIS THIS^^ (Why do I agree with you so much Deso?)

    Some CD's have no purpose in the moors what so ever, and if turbine had a brain they would have disabled them a long time ago just like Desperate Flight for hunter. Even that was not that bad of a skill compared to the "I win" skill that most classes have. Cappies have LS and can not actually die.. period.. they can't die for the length of the skill and in that time can often heal themselves enough to continue fighting. Yes, and Cappies pop this quite often against solo creeps, even low ranked ones. As mentioned above, a Shield warden is immune to crit attacks and therefore prevents crit response skills such as Rend Flesh, which is the meat of a wargs rotation. What if a creep classes had a trait that did not allow hunters to get a parry response and they could not use agile rejoiner? The world would be up in arms about that and it would be changed. Perhaps a creep trait that didn't allow block responses and guards were left without much of their block reactives. Would you feel cheated if your dps rotation could literally not be done because of the creep class you were playing against. If skills were not permitted because of how they were traited. I'm not talking about altering your rotation based on your opponents actions.. but literally the class itself did not allow you to play your skills the way you did against every other class out there. Champs stance dancing to blow bubbles and heal fully, then swap back and knock a warg for 4-6k damage has no place in the moors. I could go down the list and tell you what should be changed, but we already know them. These "I Win" skills were designed for PVE and NOT PVmP and using them despite turbines failure to recognize this is a crutch. If you keep having someone fix your mistakes you will never learn from them. You don't need these skills to win, plain and simple.. and your continued use of these skills only means you are not learning how to beat another class without training wheels. Wean yourself off of these skills and you will enjoy the competitive nature that is the moors SO MUCH MORE. So what if you die to 3 creeps, take one down with you and have a smile on your face knowing you beat the odds.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Giliodor View Post
    There is no gambit, it's a passive effect from traiting into blue. It lasts 7s. There are 3 gambits that increase critical defence, though, in Determination: sh-f sh-f-sh sh-f-sh-f.
    Ahh my mistake, I must have been thinking of the stun immunity/ tact mit gambit.
    "Heroes get remembered but Legends never die."

    SnH Landroval

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Fererif View Post
    Freeps who play correctly r far more powerful. Do you know how hard it is to beat a Freep that is using all there CDs? A freep who does is godmode. If you play correctly on freep you can win without using any CDs. You and the person who started this thread don't know that prolly because u don't play correctly.
    First off, don't assume I'm not playing correctly. I'd love to see you go out in the moors at rank 1 or 2 with no aud and win a 1v1 against a full aud high rank creep.

    **DIFFERENT SITUATIONS CHANGE THE ADVANTAGES**

    Yes a rank 0 freep can easily beat a rank 0 creep, but aud/rank difference will affect a lot. I don't think a r14 reaver is gonna walk right past you just because you're low rank with low aud, he's gonna attack you and beat you. If by some off chance you pop all your cds and beat him, he'll complain about you using cds (in most cases that's what happens)

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by xmorzan View Post
    I can't imagine you're really challenging yourself in fights traited glory unless you're really, really bad.
    My champ isn't considered "bad" and I'm sure OPs isnt either, rank/aud makes a huge difference. I don't think you understand how the moors works if you think you can just go out there and start killing stuff, you need aud. plain and simple. If I have 2 aud pieces earned so far, and I go out and try to 1v1 a full aud reaver who's equally skilled as I am, it usually doesn't matter what stance I'm in, he has a major upper hand in that fight.

  17. #17
    I don't want to sound like I'm going on a rant..but....I think the purpose of this post flew way over everyone's head. A high rank creep with full audacity should NOT complain if a low rank freep with low aud uses CD's.

    *IF* the fight is somewhat fair, then NO the freep should not pop cds, nor should the creep, or perhaps they could BOTH pop them and use everything to their advantage? I dunno that sounds like fun pvp on both sides to me.
    but for example, a rank 15 warleader who spam heals against a rank 0 freep with no aud..that's pathetic. And it's pathetic vis versa too. I believe the point of this thread is somewhat about *when* cds are appropriate, and why people shouldn't complain when they are.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bee9 View Post
    but for example, a rank 15 warleader who spam heals against a rank 0 freep with no aud..that's pathetic. And it's pathetic vis versa too. I believe the point of this thread is somewhat about *when* cds are appropriate, and why people shouldn't complain when they are.
    Why is that pathetic? Some classes and class builds are based around self-healing. Defiler, War-leader and heal attunement RK come to mind. WS mini as well but they also have DPS. And as you yourself point out, WL heals can (more or less at least) be spammed in a fight. So your talk about CDs does not apply.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Bee9 View Post
    I don't want to sound like I'm going on a rant..but....I think the purpose of this post flew way over everyone's head. A high rank creep with full audacity should NOT complain if a low rank freep with low aud uses CD's.
    There's a lot of things folks shouldn't complain about in the Moors. But they do. Obviously you may want to consider or reconsider the use of Dire Need, etc. if you are concerned about what the opposition thinks. The OOC of both sides tends to point towards some serious distortion of reality though. And if you don't use your Cooldowns and lose, expect some to say you suck at your class. Credit for not using them will be rare. You're damned if you do and damned if you don't. I'd shorten the list of people whose opinions you place signifiance in and get their feedback. Discard the rest.

  20. #20
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    @ OP

    Pop every skill you have. Gear the best you can. Trait the way that gives you the best chance to win. Use pots, food, scrolls. Use every store bought item that tickles your fancy. Scratch, claw, bite, and crawl to beat your opponent.

    I was once given very good advice about the ettenmoors: It's not sport. It's war, and in war you want to kill your opponent. So kill him, as swiftly as possible and without mercy. And when you're done with him, find another one and kill that S.O.B. too.

    PvMP has a large population of children in it. And children worry about fair. Life ain't fair, neither is Pvmp. Kill 'em all if you can. And if they squeal at you because you're killing them, then you know you're doing it right.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by ColorSpecs View Post
    @ OP

    Pop every skill you have. Gear the best you can. Trait the way that gives you the best chance to win. Use pots, food, scrolls. Use every store bought item that tickles your fancy. Scratch, claw, bite, and crawl to beat your opponent.

    I was once given very good advice about the ettenmoors: It's not sport. It's war, and in war you want to kill your opponent. So kill him, as swiftly as possible and without mercy. And when you're done with him, find another one and kill that S.O.B. too.

    PvMP has a large population of children in it. And children worry about fair. Life ain't fair, neither is Pvmp. Kill 'em all if you can. And if they squeal at you because you're killing them, then you know you're doing it right.
    There seems to be a very basic point you are missing.

    The Ettenmoors, like the rest of this game, is about fun. By using every possible tool at your disposal to win, you ruin the fun for your opponents. If they're not having fun, then they're not likely to stick around to fight you anymore, thereby ruining your own fun.

    To be frank your post seems very short-sighted. To do as you say is to basically sabotage your own enjoyment.
    [LEFT][COLOR=#ffffff]Morlenil Barkolomew Turmuz Shurz Gruubluk

    Posting in white; so people can read my dismal ramblings easier.[/COLOR][/LEFT]

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nyrion View Post


    There seems to be a very basic point you are missing.

    The Ettenmoors, like the rest of this game, is about fun. By using every possible tool at your disposal to win, you ruin the fun for your opponents. If they're not having fun, then they're not likely to stick around to fight you anymore, thereby ruining your own fun.

    To be frank your post seems very short-sighted. To do as you say is to basically sabotage your own enjoyment.
    You have a very problematic logic flaw in your argument. If my losing allows my opponent to have fun, then he is not concerned about me having fun, is he? So if my opponent isn't concerned with my fun, why should I be his?

    You're also forgetting about a certain 3rd party in your theory.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by ColorSpecs View Post
    You have a very problematic logic flaw in your argument. If my losing allows my opponent to have fun, then he is not concerned about me having fun, is he? So if my opponent isn't concerned with my fun, why should I be his?
    If is exactly it. You assume that your opponent thinks like you do, that they get their fun by winning only, not by the simple thrill of battle. I'd wager most people do not think that way. As for why you should be concerned, I already explained that. If you don't take it into account then nobody will want to fight you, and if nobody wants to fight you then there's no fights for you to win, and thus no fun for you. It's a simple case of thinking in the long-term.
    [LEFT][COLOR=#ffffff]Morlenil Barkolomew Turmuz Shurz Gruubluk

    Posting in white; so people can read my dismal ramblings easier.[/COLOR][/LEFT]

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Bee9 View Post
    My champ isn't considered "bad" and I'm sure OPs isnt either, rank/aud makes a huge difference. I don't think you understand how the moors works if you think you can just go out there and start killing stuff, you need aud. plain and simple. If I have 2 aud pieces earned so far, and I go out and try to 1v1 a full aud reaver who's equally skilled as I am, it usually doesn't matter what stance I'm in, he has a major upper hand in that fight.

    I don't see where the OP said he had no audacity, maybe I missed it in his post. I would certainly be a little more understanding if that's the case. But regardless, I took a rank 0 mini out to the moors recently and actually got a few kills with no audacity and no healing while taking a lot of deaths. Maybe you need to trait glory and blow 3 bubbles and Dire Need to win when you're wet behind the ears, I don't really know for sure. Based on what I read, I'm merely skeptical that going Glory makes for a fair fight.

    As to the role-players that want to treat the people behind the pixels as a war opponent, it's a game. Most of us play for fun. Those of you who blow every cooldown and use every advantage to dominate an inferior opponent are perfectly entitled to do so if you find that fun. You will, however, have to live with the consequences of that type of play style, mainly getting very few 1v1s, getting called out and zerged more than often and having little respect from your fellow players.
    "Heroes get remembered but Legends never die."

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  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by ColorSpecs View Post
    @ OP

    Pop every skill you have. Gear the best you can. Trait the way that gives you the best chance to win. Use pots, food, scrolls. Use every store bought item that tickles your fancy. Scratch, claw, bite, and crawl to beat your opponent.

    I was once given very good advice about the ettenmoors: It's not sport. It's war, and in war you want to kill your opponent. So kill him, as swiftly as possible and without mercy. And when you're done with him, find another one and kill that S.O.B. too.

    PvMP has a large population of children in it. And children worry about fair. Life ain't fair, neither is Pvmp. Kill 'em all if you can. And if they squeal at you because you're killing them, then you know you're doing it right.
    Tis about 1v1s, get outta here....and take yer low-fi pocket philosophy with ya.
    Last edited by poxnoxious; Aug 27 2013 at 06:56 PM. Reason: Because I can!

 

 
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